Do guys REALLY prefer the 'natural' look/beauty?

[xxoo]

I think men want a woman who is truly beautiful to him with no make up at all. That doesn't mean she needs to be a great beauty, just that she is beautiful to him with a bare face and washed hair.

 

I've heard male friends express "suspicion" regarding a woman in make up, wondering what lies beneath. He may be cautious about the attraction, needing to know first how she looks without all the make up.

 

On the other hand, if he meets a woman with little or no make up and is attracted, that is reassuring.

 

Of course, this is in the context of looking for a longterm partner--not casual dating.

[phineas]

I get more hits and from better-looking and younger guys when I wear no makeup and look like crap than when I wear discreet makeup and look really cute. Go figure! And when I am totally done and look like a million dollars, I only get the worst dorks. Men find me attractive in general, but I consider myself in the charming & cute Jennifer Aniston category, not really a model type.

 

Let me guess, baggy grey sweatpants, you know the one's that DON'T say PINK on the butt & a plain T-shirt or pull-over that DOESN'T say North Face, no make-up & your hair looks like you just rolled out of bed.?

 

I'm loving that when I see it at the grocery store.

[phineas]

I think men want a woman who is truly beautiful to him with no make up at all. That doesn't mean she needs to be a great beauty, just that she is beautiful to him with a bare face and washed hair.

 

I've heard male friends express "suspicion" regarding a woman in make up, wondering what lies beneath. He may be cautious about the attraction, needing to know first how she looks without all the make up.

 

On the other hand, if he meets a woman with little or no make up and is attracted, that is reassuring.

 

Of course, this is in the context of looking for a longterm partner--not casual dating.

 

Nah, I like camping.

 

Who wants to wake up in a tent in the middle of nowhere next to the Blair witch?

[Mme. Chaucer]

I made sure my first really serious boyfriend (I met him when I started university at 17 and stayed with him for 4 years) NEVER saw me without makeup. Not one time.

 

I told my husband about it, laughing, and commented about what an insecure basket case I was at that stage. He said he thought of it as sort of "valiant."

 

Ha!

[tigressA]

The extent of my makeup-wearing is eyeliner twice a month. I take the best care of my skin that I can (I only use three products); it will never be flawless but I carry myself like it is. I dress in clothes that fit well, I wear my hair long and loose, and I smile a lot. It's easy and it works like a charm.

[Sanman]

I like a more natural look to women. No makeup on my gf is fine with me. However, I love the lightly/natural made up look most women wear to wrok. Just enough make up to cover skin blemishes, some eyeliner, and a bit of lip gloss. The evening make-up some women wear out is a bit much for me.

[Sanman]

EDIT: double post.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Sanman
double post

[Disenchantedly Yours]

You see that at every beach. The only you don't have is some of the best pizza, ice cream and sausage sandwiches you can find.

 

I know this is a bit off topic though so back to the original program.

 

Hey and alot of our beaches really are very pretty.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

haha, you must be from the East Coast!!!

 

I'm from New Jersey. I think we can safely bet your profession isn't rocket scientist.

 

Again, someone who buys into what "reality" tv sells them needs to rethink how they form their opinions. Have you ever been to NJ yourself?

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Martinman

Some of the women posting here rue the fact that guys are telling them what they find attractive in women. It's not about what 'should' or 'shouldn't be.

 

I think what is being questioned is how realistic men's perceptions of what it takes to achieve the "natural" look that is being questioned.

 

I remember a discussion with a group of young men, in their early 20s, that were absoluetely stunned that a girl of 19 could have flabby breasts. They haven't seen anything but porn-like examples of breasts or what the "movies" let people see when it coems to a woman's body. Breasts are nothing but fat. They aren't muscle. I think media has played a big role in twisting men's and women's perceptions about exactly what is "natural", "healthy" and "sexy". Alot of female actresses don't achieve the looks they achieve because they are so natural. They have the time to spend hours at the gym, have personal trainers, personal chefs, botox, detox, surgery...Alot of things happen behind the scenes that men don't see or pay attention to.

 

A lot of guys like fit, natural looking women. for women 'to get' to that image is not the issue. No one said it's easy for a woman to look that image.

 

Well actually it does matter how women get to that natural look if men are describing the type of women they like as "natural". Otherwise, if men are saying they like natural women, but men are achieving a "natural" look through unnatural means, then men don't like the "natural" look at all. And then it's misleading about what men really like about women. When you describe something as "natural", that has a certain connotation to it.

 

This thread a bit of a reflection on the 'forever' issue women bring up about guys being reluctant to express their thoughts or feelings. When we do express our feelings we we are told 'no you don't really want that' as in

 

-no, you don't really want a 'natural' looking women..or

-you 'shouldn't' want that type of woman.

 

Well, not one woman here said "you shouldn't/you don't want that"..what women have said is that they thin men's ideal about what is 'natural", might not be all that natural after all or realistic.

 

It's great that men express their opinions. But it's not fair to use that expression to hold it over women's head so they can't express their own. You need to hear women out in return.

 

This is why when you ask your partner what he thinks, often his first thought is not to express his true opinion but rather to think 'what does she want me to answer'. Guys learn this skill to perfection.

 

Men teach themselves that "skill". Because they don't want to have to deal with their partners "true" feelings themselves. So they lie and manipulate. If you want to be honest, then you need to honesty accept in turn how that will realistically make your partner feel. It's not easy but it is a two way street.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Martinman

All those fashion magazines aren't geared towards any image a guy wants...they are geared to sell products to women.And, no, few guys see celebrities or movie stars as any concept of an ideal woman. 'Celebrities' is a woman industry. I just don't know guys who thinks Julia Roberts or Angelina Jolie (sp) are any more attractive than a dozen other women they walk by every day.

 

I guess I will remember that next time I hear guys talking about how much they want to "bang" Jessica Alba, Scarlett Johanson, Kim K. and a host of other women.

 

Sites like Askmen are popular and they specifically target showing off "female celebrities". Every year them, and several other men's magazines do the top "hottest female celebrity" list? What mag do you know where women do a top "hottest male celebrity" list?

 

I don't disagree that fashion magazines play their part and do their own damage to women and ideals placed on them in combination with product moving power. But ignoring the way that male media also places expectations isn't fair.

 

 

Regardless how much we guys are told that we don't really want the 'natural' look, don't assume that it has anything to do with the popularity of 'made up' to look natural female celebrities. The female celebrity industry is for 'women consumers' and not for men.

 

That's not factually true. If it where, then the old stigma about how older female actresses find less and less good parts vs their male counterparts wouldn't be so rampet. It's common knowledge that Hollywood overly indulges in the stereotype that men can act no matter their age while older women are stigmatized. Sure, there are a few older women with a few break-out roles. But nothing close to the ease that older male actors find work and are often placed with younger female counterparts.

 

I also know of many blockbuster movies that specifically cater to men. Transformers with Megan Fox (AKA Megan Fake) as eye candy. To claim that the celebrity industry is purely for "women" women women like Kim K. run around is foolish. It's driven by both women AND men. And that is the difference in our arguments. I acknowledge men play a part as women do, on different sides. Yet when ever this discussion comes up men ironically want to throw their hands up turn their heads and act like they don't.

 

Oh and lets not mention a very heavily driven industry that is all about what men like. Porn. Most porn out there isn't of "natural" women but of women heavily make-uped, over the top dressed and surgically "enhanced" and men lap it up like puppy dogs.

 

 

In part. We also care about our partner's happiness.. Do I want to go have dinner at her parents? My real feeling..'No, I'd rather lay on the sofa and read 'Mad Magazine'. My answer...'Ya sounds great. Let me go pick up a bottle of wine'.

'Don't you love snuggling like this after sex? My feeling...'I'm kind of hungry and would like a sandwich'. My answer 'ya, I feel even closer to you'.

 

What's call 'lies' by some are learned social skills by others. We exist in sociial settings. . It's putting one's partner first. I love my gal to pieces and I don't really see meeting her needs first as 'manipulatiion'. I see it as a bit of sacrifice for our relationship. I'd rather have her happy that go get that sandwich.

 

But small sacrifices isn't what is being discussed. The other poster was making the case that women "force" men into not being "honest" about their feelings and thoughts because of women's own feelings and thoughts. That's plain manipulative. If a man wants to be honest about how he feels about something he should be. And he should also be prepared to deal with how it honestly makes his partner feel in return. Too many men try to get away with "I lie because she makes me with her response". That's nonsense. And it's basically insisting that men get to be hoenst about how they feel but women shouldn't. It's a two way street.

[ThaWholigan]

I guess I will remember that next time I hear guys talking about how much they want to "bang" Jessica Alba, Scarlett Johanson, Kim K. and a host of other women.

 

Sites like Askmen are popular and they specifically target showing off "female celebrities". Every year them, and several other men's magazines do the top "hottest female celebrity" list? What mag do you know where women do a top "hottest male celebrity" list?

 

Lots of guys do this, even I do. I do it at least 20 times a day. Any girl we see that we think is hot, celebrity or not, we will automatically saying this to ourselves, either out loud or not, "I would so give her a good one :bunny:".

 

Also, I'm always disappointed by the hottest female celebrity lists, as are lots of guys I know. Don't put too much stock into their importance. And I'm pretty sure there are hottest male celebrity lists too, I just have no interest in them .

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Lots of guys do this, even I do. I do it at least 20 times a day. Any girl we see that we think is hot, celebrity or not, we will automatically saying this to ourselves, either out loud or not, "I would so give her a good one "

 

But I'm not making the argument that men don't like women in "real life". What I am saying is that men contribute to the whole beauty issue because of what they show they like about women. Through celebrities, or other male entertainment, or how they treat women in the real world.

 

I know a lot of guys talk about who they want to "bang". In real life and with celebrities. But that's not exactly saying something positive for men or women either. And it does nothing to address what I was actually saying. I don't even really understand your reponse since my argument never was that men don't like women out in the real world. Women out in the real world are copying what they see men drawn to through media. Men are not nearly as attracted to the "natural" look as I think alot of men like to believe about themselves.

 

Also, I'm always disappointed by the hottest female celebrity lists, as are lots of guys I know. Don't put too much stock into their importance. And I'm pretty sure there are hottest male celebrity lists too, I just have no interest in them .

 

Most of the women on those lists are quite beautiful so I don't know who in the world you would want on the list. While a man might not agree that one particular celebrity should be number "1", the list is usually voted on by regular men themselves. Clearly there is a huge segment of men that are motivated by female celebrities, rating them and lusting after them. Otherwise they wouldn't grace the covers of Maxim and that wouldn't be so popular. These are just obvious facts.

 

Further, you say you are sure there is a hottest male celebrity list. Where? The fact is, if there is one, which I highly doubt, we can both agree it's not as prominant as how men rate women. Name just one "hottest male celebrity list" that is voted on by women and motivated by women to the extent that a lot of male magazines have coined when it comes to female celebrities. Just one. I also believe men are the ones that came up with the whole 1-10 scale. I hear men all the time rating women like this. I just don't hear women who do this nearly at the same rate I hear of men that do.

 

Lets stop pretending that men don't partically contribute to ideals placed on women about how they need/should look. I think the media plays a big part in how men perceive women and femininity. We need to be honest about how men drive their own market when it comes to ideals about women. Yes, I agree fashion magzines and the fashion world has a place in being detrimental to women's self view. But I also see how male entertainment does the same. And when men want to keep ignoring this or pretend it doesn't exsist, they aren't helping themselves or women very much. And they are holding up ideals that are completely false and twisted. Telling women they like the "natural" look while the "natural" look really consists of hidden breast implants surgery, botox, weekly/daily facials and a host of other things done to look "natural", just makes ideals and messages about women's looks and bodies more complicated and confusing and unfair.

[ThaWholigan]

But I'm not making the argument that men don't like women in "real life". What I am saying is that men contribute to the whole beauty issue because of what they show they like about women. Through celebrities, or other male entertainment, or how they treat women in the real world.

 

I know a lot of guys talk about who they want to "bang". In real life and with celebrities. But that's not exactly saying something positive for men or women either. And it does nothing to address what I was actually saying. I don't even really understand your reponse since my argument never was that men don't like women out in the real world. Women out in the real world are copying what they see men drawn to through media. Men are not nearly as attracted to the "natural" look as I think alot of men like to believe about themselves.

 

 

 

Most of the women on those lists are quite beautiful so I don't know who in the world you would want on the list. While a man might not agree that one particular celebrity should be number "1", the list is usually voted on by regular men themselves. Clearly there is a huge segment of men that are motivated by female celebrities, rating them and lusting after them. Otherwise they wouldn't grace the covers of Maxim and that wouldn't be so popular. These are just obvious facts.

 

Further, you say you are sure there is a hottest male celebrity list. Where? The fact is, if there is one, which I highly doubt, we can both agree it's not as prominant as how men rate women. Name just one "hottest male celebrity list" that is voted on by women and motivated by women to the extent that a lot of male magazines have coined when it comes to female celebrities. Just one. I also believe men are the ones that came up with the whole 1-10 scale. I hear men all the time rating women like this. I just don't hear women who do this nearly at the same rate I hear of men that do.

 

Lets stop pretending that men don't partically contribute to ideals placed on women about how they need/should look. I think the media plays a big part in how men perceive women and femininity. We need to be honest about how men drive their own market when it comes to ideals about women. Yes, I agree fashion magzines and the fashion world has a place in being detrimental to women's self view. But I also see how male entertainment does the same. And when men want to keep ignoring this or pretend it doesn't exsist, they aren't helping themselves or women very much. And they are holding up ideals that are completely false and twisted. Telling women they like the "natural" look while the "natural" look really consists of hidden breast implants surgery, botox, weekly/daily facials and a host of other things done to look "natural", just makes ideals and messages about women's looks and bodies more complicated and confusing and unfair.

 

I'm not pretending about anything, I agree that there are a significant portion of men who do contribute. And the media does contribute a great deal. But I tire of the whole "it's all men's fault" message that gets conveyed a lot. I think we equally contribute to our woes, in some arenas it is men, in others it is women.

 

I don't think there it is negative when a man thinks about banging a celebrity. As a man, I think about "banging" most women, even ones I have no actual interest in. It is just the way I am, before porn even entered the equation. I've been like that since very young, even with a conservative mother. It is a natural thing, I can think about something else, and I often do. But I would not portray this as a negative thing.

 

As I have previously stated, I think nothing is wrong or bad about your point of view, but I think it is a little extreme personally. I do appreciate your point of view though surprisingly, I think it balances out POVs that get bandied about.

[Woggle]

Hey and alot of our beaches really are very pretty.

 

Very true. Around here in the summer there is a whole army of people that clean the beach and boardwalk from top to bottom every night and have it nice and pretty for the morning.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

ThaWholigan

I'm not pretending about anything, I agree that there are a significant portion of men who do contribute. And the media does contribute a great deal. But I tire of the whole "it's all men's fault" message that gets conveyed a lot. I think we equally contribute to our woes, in some arenas it is men, in others it is women.

 

Wholigan, I clearly stated that I think men and women both contribute to the issue. I was in disagreement with another poster that seemed to think men where completely innocent and just along for the ride. I am still having a hard time seeing exactly what your trying to say here.

 

I don't think there it is negative when a man thinks about banging a celebrity. As a man, I think about "banging" most women, even ones I have no actual interest in. It is just the way I am, before porn even entered the equation. I've been like that since very young, even with a conservative mother. It is a natural thing, I can think about something else, and I often do. But I would not portray this as a negative thing.

 

I think it can be a negative if a man spends a lot of time just thinking about women he wants to bang, even women he isn't interested in. For several reasons. One being how over indulgent it is. Why think about having sex with women you don't even have an interest in? It's negative because it's pretty selfish and greedy perspective. I also think it's a waste of time to be spending that much time thinking about banging other people. But this goes back to self control and how little of it we really have today. I certainly wouldn't want to be with the kind of man that thought about banging every woman he saw. For hte reasons I listed above. This would be a huge negative for any woman. I'm not saying that to put you down. Just to explain why as a woman, it's not a positive trait to ahve. I don't want a man to be so consumed with sex and seeing women only in terms of who is bangable and who isn't. Or who isn't bangable but would stil lbang because he's a "man". That's not what "man" means to me.

 

I also don't see how you talking about how you want to bang every female you see has anything to do with what my previous posts where about. You havet yet to articulate how it works into the discussion I was having with the other poster that you chimed in on.

 

As I have previously stated, I think nothing is wrong or bad about your point of view, but I think it is a little extreme personally. I do appreciate your point of view though surprisingly, I think it balances out POVs that get bandied about.

 

What's extreme about my point of view?

[lululucy]

I'm not pretending about anything, I agree that there are a significant portion of men who do contribute. And the media does contribute a great deal. But I tire of the whole "it's all men's fault" message that gets conveyed a lot. I think we equally contribute to our woes, in some arenas it is men, in others it is women.

 

Men obviously do contribute but it's certainly not to the level that women and the media do. I find it exhausting when women blame all the societal expectations on male opinion.

 

I think it can be a negative if a man spends a lot of time just thinking about women he wants to bang, even women he isn't interested in. For several reasons. One being how over indulgent it is. Why think about having sex with women you don't even have an interest in? It's negative because it's pretty selfish and greedy perspective. I also think it's a waste of time to be spending that much time thinking about banging other people. But this goes back to self control and how little of it we really have today. I certainly wouldn't want to be with the kind of man that thought about banging every woman he saw. For hte reasons I listed above. This would be a huge negative for any woman. I'm not saying that to put you down. Just to explain why as a woman, it's not a positive trait to ahve. I don't want a man to be so consumed with sex and seeing women only in terms of who is bangable and who isn't. Or who isn't bangable but would stil lbang because he's a "man". That's not what "man" means to me.

 

For the life of me I can't understand your perspective. I really try, honestly, but I don't get where you come off saying that all women would consider a man who thinks about sleeping with women he sees somehow bad. How is it selfish or greedy? If I like to glance at cars I see driving by, does it make me greedy or selfish to want to drive both an Aston Martin and a 911 Turbo? I'm obviously not GOING to (unless I win the lottery tonight) but I can think about it without being greedy or selfish. It doesn't have anything to do with self-control -- if Wholigan was sexually assaulting every woman he saw that he considered bangable, that would be about self-control. Perhaps you aren't using clear enough examples because I really cannot fathom your point of view.

[dasein]

I think it can be a negative if a man spends a lot of time just thinking about women he wants to bang, even women he isn't interested in. For several reasons. One being how over indulgent it is. Why think about having sex with women you don't even have an interest in? It's negative because it's pretty selfish and greedy perspective.

 

Please... if men's minds didn't work this way the species would be extinct, and on the off chance we weren't extinct, we'd be living in caves with 20 year lifespans. A great big chunk of everything you do and have in life depends on the male sex desire and sublimation of it.

[ThaWholigan]

Wholigan, I clearly stated that I think men and women both contribute to the issue. I was in disagreement with another poster that seemed to think men where completely innocent and just along for the ride. I am still having a hard time seeing exactly what your trying to say here.

 

I wasn't involved in that disagreement, I just picked up on one thing you said.

 

I think it can be a negative if a man spends a lot of time just thinking about women he wants to bang, even women he isn't interested in. For several reasons. One being how over indulgent it is. Why think about having sex with women you don't even have an interest in? It's negative because it's pretty selfish and greedy perspective. I also think it's a waste of time to be spending that much time thinking about banging other people. But this goes back to self control and how little of it we really have today. I certainly wouldn't want to be with the kind of man that thought about banging every woman he saw. For hte reasons I listed above. This would be a huge negative for any woman. I'm not saying that to put you down. Just to explain why as a woman, it's not a positive trait to ahve. I don't want a man to be so consumed with sex and seeing women only in terms of who is bangable and who isn't. Or who isn't bangable but would stil lbang because he's a "man". That's not what "man" means to me.

 

I understand it's a huge negative for a few women. Which is why I don't necessarily talk about it. I have enough self-control to not think about it all the time, but sooner or later, I'm gonna think about it. I am not going to quote a flimsy statistic, but I will go out on a limb and say that EVERY man I know thinks this way, even my father. I am not consumed by sex, and I don't see women in terms of who is bangable or not, I have far more about me than that - but that doesn't mean I'm not going to think about sex with them, it usually happens even when I'm not predisposed to think about it at that moment. Sometimes I don't even want to, when the thought comes, I switch it to something else, usually football. I have remonstrated this with people close to me and both men and women have described it as not a negative and that "most men are like that". I don't always take people's word for things, so I won't say that I am talking facts but this is just what I believe. I understand you're not putting me down, I'm not easily offended

 

I also don't see how you talking about how you want to bang every female you see has anything to do with what my previous posts where about. You havet yet to articulate how it works into the discussion I was having with the other poster that you chimed in on.

 

It wasn't about your previous posts, I just felt like commenting on that one thing.

 

What's extreme about my point of view?

 

Well it's a little more conservative than most people on here, which isn't a negative to me, just different.

 

10 characters....bolded

[ThaWholigan]

Please... if men's minds didn't work this way the species would be extinct, and on the off chance we weren't extinct, we'd be living in caves with 20 year lifespans. A great big chunk of everything you do and have in life depends on the male sex desire and sublimation of it.

 

I think that is true, but at the same time, it has contributed to our dark sides also. Self control is an issue, but it's a little amusing that my level of self control is "too low" with regards to my sexuality.

 

Men obviously do contribute but it's certainly not to the level that women and the media do. I find it exhausting when women blame all the societal expectations on male opinion.

 

So do I. It's not completely without merit, but I think that it's blown out of proportion these days in my personal opinion. I could be wrong, but I trust my analysis.

 

For the life of me I can't understand your perspective. I really try, honestly, but I don't get where you come off saying that all women would consider a man who thinks about sleeping with women he sees somehow bad. How is it selfish or greedy? If I like to glance at cars I see driving by, does it make me greedy or selfish to want to drive both an Aston Martin and a 911 Turbo? I'm obviously not GOING to (unless I win the lottery tonight) but I can think about it without being greedy or selfish. It doesn't have anything to do with self-control -- if Wholigan was sexually assaulting every woman he saw that he considered bangable, that would be about self-control. Perhaps you aren't using clear enough examples because I really cannot fathom your point of view.

 

My level of self control is unbelievably high, too high in fact. I used to be an impulsive child at times, as well as being able to mask my tics (i.e. rocking, obsessive behavior, drumming on objects repeatedly etc). As a result I have shifted from one area to another, where my impulses are controlled a little too much. I can afford to do this because I have creative outlets.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Disenchantedly Yours:

 

I think it's a useless crusade to fight against the very common male trait of having sexual thoughts when looking at women, or images of women. Or, for having sexual thoughts when driving, or using a jigsaw in the shop. Any old time.

 

It has nothing to do with objectifying women. Sure, many of the guys who are having these multitudinous impersonal sexual thoughts that may have been triggered by looking at an actual woman DO objectify women. And, I think it's piggish for men to be ogling women, especially when they are actually with a woman other than the ones being ogled - also, to disengage from interacting with their date or partner because they are immersed in sexual fantasy land instead (including porn). Many men don't objectify, ignore or ogle, though. They are very likely still having those thoughts that bother you so much. The sexual thoughts are normal and not "bad."

 

It's a part of male sexuality.

 

If you insist that men you're involved with don't have any sexual thoughts when looking at women or images of women (or in other ways unrelated to you and your own relationship with them), you are fighting a losing battle. Also, you are likely weakening your relationship, because the man will learn quickly that he better NEVER let you in on the reality of his sexual nature or else he'll be in for it.

[phineas]

People that try to blame their dating problems on media's standards of what's hot are either unattractive or have an attitude that makes them unattractive.

 

It's just a fantasy. I know very few men that are holding out for a Jessica Alba clone & in all honesty, women THAT attractive in real life for the most part are complete stuck-up bitches that wind up 40 & still dating because no man wants to marry her & deal with her crap for the rest of his life.

 

I laugh at the women in this thread who try to tell me I don't really know what I want when it comes to women & make-up after I clearly state what I want & give examples. LOL!

[SilverLining]

Hmm. You know, I did a study on this subject once. It was pretty interesting. Well, if I can articulate it correctly, what I found was this: both women and men drive the media frenzy targeted at women. At the top, most ad agencies, directors and producers, etc are men. They are choosing women with certain attributes based on what they perceive their target audience to want. If their target audience is male, you get the Scarlett J's and the Kim K's, the Megan F's. They do this because when they do their research determining who their audience will want to see in order to make more money, the results are the same every time. It's why men will go to see a crappy movie with absolutely no plot if there's a lot of gore and tits in it. Why women will see a crappy movie if it has their fav actor/actress in it, and a feel good sappy theme. Anyway, men decide what they find attractive and the media reflects it. Then the makeup and fashion companies jump all over it and tell women they need this or that in order to compete with the other women, because after all, we are all competing in order to get noticed. The more sexualized the media gets, the more favorable response there is to it by men, the more it continues, and the more women's fashion trends reflect it. This changes of course through the times - it used to be fashionable for women to be overweight, now it's fashionable to be very thin. It's interesting to note that former supermodels like Cindy Crawford would be considered too fat by today's standards - in the industry.

 

On the other hand, I think there are a lot of guys who understand that women in the media are FANTASY. They like looking at sex, at naked women (hence all the boob shots in almost every movie), at women they consider to be 'hot'. But in real life, most men don't need that. The issue seems to be 2 fold. First, as long as men appreciate seeing one type of woman in the media, the media will capitalize on that and women will be pressured to emulate that, no matter what type of woman that is. You might be interested to know that women with Kim K's body type are the type that most men are attracted to in general but the least common body type. Anyway. Second, while most older men seem to understand that these women aren't 'real' per se, there is a whole generation of younger men who have less and less access to 'real' women. Unlike older generations who may have looked at whatever dirty mag they could scrounge up, soft-core porn with bad reception, or actual real life girls, guys nowadays have almost unlimited access to internet porn movies and pics, and movies and tv shows in general that have a lot of very unnatural women in them. It's no wonder that many of them really have no idea what a real woman looks like.

 

Another thought. I have read that if a man sees women he considers to be attractive (in a movie or whatever), he's less satisfied with his current partner. I'm sure women do that too though.

 

Phineas, I agree with you that many of the most attractive people have crap for personality. However, I think we all know some people who would date a bore who is hot rather than a compelling average person.

[Quiet Storm]

The other poster was making the case that women "force" men into not being "honest" about their feelings and thoughts because of women's own feelings and thoughts. That's plain manipulative. If a man wants to be honest about how he feels about something he should be. And he should also be prepared to deal with how it honestly makes his partner feel in return. Too many men try to get away with "I lie because she makes me with her response". That's nonsense. And it's basically insisting that men get to be hoenst about how they feel but women shouldn't. It's a two way street.

 

I agree that the ideal relationship is that partners should be honest with each other and accept their partners reactions.

 

However, it is not a perfect world. We are each our own people with thoughts, emotions and reactions. We were all trained in socialization by different kinds of parents. Many of our models were dysfunctional, depressed or addicted.

 

Men are often raised to believe that women can't handle the truth about some things. I don't believe most men intentionally withold to manipulate, but in a protective way. As in "Don't worry your pretty little head about it".

 

I don't like that, but I can understand why this dynamic exists.

 

For example, if a man doesn't want to cuddle after sex, and is honest and says "I'm too hot and sweaty to spoon and I'm starving" and heads to the fridge, an emotionally immature or insecure woman may react negatively. She may take his reluctance to cuddle as a rejection, and react emotionally. The guy, who genuinely likes the girl and wants to keep her happy, doesn't want her to jump to conclusions so he puts his needs aside, and keeps his feelings to himself.

 

There are many women, myself included, who wouldn't mind if he didn't want to cuddle. And there are many women who would start crying and asking a million questions about his feelings for her, etc.

 

Men are taught, not just by women & their reactions, but by other men (fathers, friends, brothers, etc), that women need to be "managed". This means there are certain subjects, truths and gory details that go unsaid.

 

Is it right that they don't have enough respect for us to give us 100% honesty? No. But I don't blame them. From toddlerhood, they are trained by their mothers to say things that women will like and respond to. They learn that being polite and giving compliments results in positive attention. They learn that being honest often results in punishment or confrontations.

 

Mommy: "Go give Aunt Edna a big hug, she hasn't seen you in awhile"

 

Honest Little Boy: "Eww! She's ugly and has a mustache and I don't even know her!" Mom's reaction: Disdain, embarrassment, punishment

 

The dishonest boy, who swallows his feelings and goes and hugs the woman, is praised for being "sweet" and is considered a "good boy".

 

He learns that his feelings don't matter, and that he needs to modify his behavior and conform to what women want.

 

This repeats itself in adulthood. Men know that women aren't going to respond positively to their honesty on certain subjects, so they tell us what we want hear. It is easy and second nature because they've been programmed in childhood. They won't tell their wives they're getting fat because they will be seen as an a*sh0le. They won't tell their girlfriends they don't really love to cuddle, because she'll take it personally. They won't tell their daughters that her boyfriend is likely using her for sex, because that truth is just too ugly. They won't be honest about how important sex is to them, or how the lack of it hurts them. They'll marry because it's what is expected of them.

 

It's sad really, because I think many of them want to be honest, but feel the risk is too great. They are cowards when it comes to handling female emotions, and avoid at all costs.

 

So I think that this generation of men is already programmed, but it is possible to reprogram future generations.

 

This means that fathers must teach their sons how to communicate with women effectively and listen well. Men need to learn that tears and talking are not something to fear, and that reassurance is what most women really want. Men need to be honest with their daughters and tell them that most men really are driven by sex, and give them the tools to recognize when they are being used by men (instead of avoiding the subject).

 

Women need to teach their sons to be honest, to speak their mind, and not train them to be polite, compliant robots. Women need to tell their daughters that our emotions, while valid, often make men uncomfortable- just like men's anger often makes us uncomfortable. We can teach our daughters to express their hurt and pain in less dramatic ways, just like we teach our sons to control their anger.

 

There are touchy subjects for men, too, that women are dishonest about. I've learned over the years that many men are sensitive about their penis size, their woman's sexual history(#) and height. The truth hurts. Many women have said their men are the biggest and best, because we have learned that men have sensitive egos and don't want to deal with the aftermath of certain revelations. So it's not just men, many women have secrets, too.

[Eliana]

Here's a crazy thought, I think more important than whether you use make up or not, it's the clothes you wear. High heels and sofisticated feminine clothes get more male attention than sporty and baggy jeans, and this does set using make up or not to a very distant second place.

 

I hope this is enough on topic:o