Are my expectations too high?

[maybealone]

The short version of my story is that I have become increasingly unhappy in my marriage over the last few years. About six months ago, I finally started talking to my husband about our problems. (I let it go too long, as I already have a lot of resentment built up, but I still wanted to try to fix things. He is also unhappy, but "not as unhappy" as I am.)

 

One of my bigger issues is that he doesn't spend much time with me. Sure, he'll go out somewhere with me, but at home he would rather watch TV in a separate room, go to bed at different times, that kind of thing. He travels a lot for work, and some weeks when we are apart we don't talk more than a minute or two out of a whole day. These are all concerns I have discussed with him over these past six months.

 

Fast forward to the holidays. He had time off for Christmas and could have afforded to come home, but since he was closer to his family at the time, he decided to spend it with them. (We have no kids.) I sent him a Christmas present there, he didn't send me one. He has called every day but not talked long. For example, he called Christmas morning and talked to me about five minutes, then didn't call again until today.

 

I feel that if he really wants to work on things, he should be making more of an effort. I don't think he has somehow read the 180, because he still does a lot of things on that list. (Strangely enough though, he was the first to bring up divorce and then suggested it three or four more times, but then the minute I start to agree with him, he takes it back and says that's not what he wants.)

 

I am hoping for some objective opinions. Maybe because he is "not as unhappy" as I am, he shouldn't make more of an effort to be more attentive or even "there" for me. I understand that change is a two-way street, but I have explained to him that the emotional and physical neglect I have felt over the years has left me very hurt, and that I would like to see some improvement in him first before I let my guard down.

 

Basically, I feel like I shouldn't push the subject with him unless I think it's a reasonable complaint, mainly because he is very good at twisting things into being all my fault.

[KathyM]

In order to make a marriage work, you both have to work on the emotional closeness, which I know is difficult if he travels a lot on business. But there is a lot you can do. Sometimes women do need to be the major instigator/planner for initiating closeness, because they tend to be better at it than men. You make the calls, and find out how his day is going, and let him know how much you miss him, and what is waiting for him when he gets home. If he goes to another room to watch T.V., you make it a point to visit there and snuggle during that time. If he goes to bed earlier than you, you need to make a point to be with him before he falls asleep to give him a massage, to talk, to have some snuggle time, etc., even if you will be getting up afterwards to do some things before bedtime. You make the plans for date night. Women are better at being the social planners and initiating closeness. It's ingrained in our psyche. Men are not as good at it, generally. I think if you make a major effort to initiate closeness with him, it will pay off for you, and he will be happier as well. And I would suggest marriage counseling. Don't turn off your emotional closeness with him because you feel he is doing that. This is the time you need to step up your efforts to maintain closeness.

[Philosoraptor]

I'd recommend couples counsiling. Both of you need to put in effort but it seems like he is checking out of the relationship or that you two just don't match up. Sadly many times we find such things out way too late.

 

For this to work communication has to work both ways and both people need to not only make effort, but do a lot of relationship checkups to communicate feelings.

[maybealone]

I'm on the fence about MC. I want to go (and have gone to IC), but he doesn't believe in it. But he has said he would go if as a last resort, but he would be doing it for me and not because he thinks it would help. I have no idea how helpful MC is if only one partner believes it will work.

 

Sometimes women do need to be the major instigator/planner for initiating closeness, because they tend to be better at it than men. You make the calls, and find out how his day is going, and let him know how much you miss him, and what is waiting for him when he gets home. If he goes to another room to watch T.V., you make it a point to visit there and snuggle during that time. If he goes to bed earlier than you, you need to make a point to be with him before he falls asleep to give him a massage, to talk, to have some snuggle time, etc., even if you will be getting up afterwards to do some things before bedtime. You make the plans for date night.

 

You may be right. I am not as good at making the calls, and that's something I should work on. But I always make a point to ask about his day, his plans for the evening, and so on. I cannot remember the last time he asked me how my day went (I'd ballpark in years not weeks though), even though I have told him that I would like to him to seem somewhat interested in my life. I have tried to get him to watch TV with me, but the room he goes to has only a small recliner and he doesn't like it when I sit on it with him. And he is the one who goes to bed later than me, and I have asked him to stay with me until I fall asleep or even for 10 minutes, but he hasn't yet. Sometimes on weekends I will stay up with him until he is ready for bed, but on weeknights going to bed with him would only give me about three hours of sleep before work. Sometimes when I am watching TV in the living room I will ask him to sit on the sofa with me and he will, but that's about it.

 

I honestly feel like I have made an effort (and was making even more of an effort before things got to this point), but maybe I should do more. I just need to figure out how to get over the pain I still feel from being rejected so much over the years.

[norajane]

Counseling might be a good idea. It could help you two learn to communicate - so you can help him understand what specifically would make you feel more connected to him, and for him to learn not to get all defensive and turn things around so that you are at fault.

 

Is there any reason you couldn't have flown out to be with him at his family's place for Christmas?

[maybealone]

Is there any reason you couldn't have flown out to be with him at his family's place for Christmas?

 

He didn't tell me until three days before Christmas that he wasn't coming home, so it wasn't really enough time for me to get vacation time at work and a reasonable plane ticket. In hindsight, I should have tried (even though he didn't ever ask me to come). My only defense is that I was a bit shocked by the decision and not really thinking clearly.

[Yasuandio]

You sound like you have been extremely diplomatic and tolerant, in the face of your husband suggesting divorce 3 or 4 times. Coupled with his clear neglect of your reasonable companionship requests, I believe you may be experiencing the effects of being treated as a non-person. What do you think about that? Do you ever feel like a non-person in your marriage?

 

Rather than "cozying up the den," perhaps it is time to think of yourself. Get involved doing your own thing that occupies the "zero-moments" that have evolved in your marriage by DOING SOMETHING DIFFERENT, that will make you happy.

 

You can just forget about marriage counciling -- his response to your request would be a direct correlate to his commitment to the process. Another big zero. Spend the money on your own therapy, self-improvement, and anything that will bring a smile to your face.

 

Sorry, this reminds me of a lonely marriage I spent 27 years wondering about. I suppose, I mainly wondered, why do I feel so alone, when I live with someone?

 

Answer. Because, once he walked in the door, ate the meal I lovingly prepared for him (that would include fresh home-made bread every night of the week), he'd crash on the couch in front of MSN for the duration of the evening. During the years we had a little TV upstairs, I'd carry his food up to him. I was always alone. He did not seem to want any quality time with me. I hope you are not feeling this bad.

 

Action speaks louder than words. What can he do to contribute to improving the marriage? I just don't get why it should rest on your shoulders, nor do I believe any special treatment or goodies will inspire a more desired responsiveness from him. That would sort of be like rewarding unacceptable conduct, wouldn't it?

 

That's just my take. I was an idiot for so long, and allowed MY NEEDS to be neglected. Would like to save you some trouble with my experience, if that is, indeed, the case in your situation.

 

Happy Holidays to YOU!

 

Yas

[KathyM]

You sound like you have been extremely diplomatic and tolerant, in the face of your husband suggesting divorce 3 or 4 times. Coupled with his clear neglect of your reasonable companionship requests, I believe you may be experiencing the effects of being treated as a non-person. What do you think about that? Do you ever feel like a non-person in your marriage?

 

Rather than "cozying up the den," perhaps it is time to think of yourself. Get involved doing your own thing that occupies the "zero-moments" that have evolved in your marriage by DOING SOMETHING DIFFERENT, that will make you happy.

 

You can just forget about marriage counciling -- his response to your request would be a direct correlate to his commitment to the process. Another big zero. Spend the money on your own therapy, self-improvement, and anything that will bring a smile to your face.

 

Sorry, this reminds me of a lonely marriage I spent 27 years wondering about. I suppose, I mainly wondered, why do I feel so alone, when I live with someone?

 

Answer. Because, once he walked in the door, ate the meal I lovingly prepared for him (that would include fresh home-made bread every night of the week), he'd crash on the couch in front of MSN for the duration of the evening. During the years we had a little TV upstairs, I'd carry his food up to him. I was always alone. He did not seem to want any quality time with me. I hope you are not feeling this bad.

 

Action speaks louder than words. What can he do to contribute to improving the marriage? I just don't get why it should rest on your shoulders, nor do I believe any special treatment or goodies will inspire a more desired responsiveness from him. That would sort of be like rewarding unacceptable conduct, wouldn't it?

 

That's just my take. I was an idiot for so long, and allowed MY NEEDS to be neglected. Would like to save you some trouble with my experience, if that is, indeed, the case in your situation.

 

Happy Holidays to YOU!

 

Yas

Sorry, but I just don't agree with this. What you are prescribing is a recipe for living a separate life from your husband, and which will end up pulling you further apart, not closer together. You are suggesting she work on her own interests and desires, and her own needs, rather than investing time and attention on her marriage. You are suggesting she fill up her loneliness with other things, rather than trying to develop a closer relationship with her husband. I'm not telling her to become a slave to him, and that is somehow going to bring them closer together. I am telling her to make efforts to maintain and re-establish closeness. Make the phone calls to him at least once a day to ask him how his day is going, to talk about interesting topics you might have read, say something sexy, etc., to keep the connection while apart. Then make efforts to be connected while together. Make a rule that when dinner is served, you both eat at the table, without the T.V. on, and engage in conversation. Make an effort to snuggle, touch, kiss, massage, and show affection/attention while he's at home, even if he is watching T.V., reading or doing something else at the time. I often go up to my husband while he's busy with something, or while he's watching T.V., and just give him a hug and a kiss. And if one goes to bed at a different time than the other, then make sure you give/get that goodnight hug and kiss beforehand. There is a lot the OP can do to keep the closeness. Some men are not real good at instituting, but they are good receptors. If she follows his lead and disconnects, expecting him to make the moves towards closeness, she'll find that they are moving farther and farther apart. That is a sure fire way to torpedo the marriage. Making the effort to maintain closeness is what needs to happen, not waiting for him to institute it. And just for the record, if you try to dictate to your husband that he needs to do this, or he needs to do that, you'll find you are met up with resistance, because men do not like to be dictated to, and they will resist for that reason. No one likes to be told they have to do something. That is where marriage counseling comes in, because he would probably be more receptive to hearing about changes he needs to make from an outside neutral party. Right now, the OP can only change what she does, not what her husband does, and she can make efforts to maintain closeness that will benefit both of them. But she can suggest a date night and make the arrangements for it, and she can suggest the rule that dinner needs to be at the table without the T.V. on. And she can certainly institute affection/attention during the day and evening, but she can't dictate it, or it will turn him off.

[maybealone]

I really appreciate these replies. They are helping me sort my head out.

 

I don't know if this will help or not, but the timeline of the problems goes like this: My husband used to be very attentive, affectionate, and initiated closeness, but about five years ago that started to go away. Four years ago he stopped wanting sex. (Me? I could do it every day.) Two years ago he got a job where he traveled a lot. (Right or wrong, I felt like it was my "punishment" for finally asking him to get a job after eight years of not working much. He said the traveling job was for "a change of scenery.")

 

While he was gone a lot, I kind of did what Yas suggested. (Again, not saying it was right or wrong. Maybe it is what got me to the point I'm at now.) I made new friends, found some hobbies, started walking and slimmed down, and slowly pulled my self-esteem out of the toilet. Friends and family tell me I now seem like the person I was before I got married.

 

I think some of these issues I had with the marriage contributed to that drop in self-esteem. Having a husband that doesn't want you and who will even tell you that he doesn't find you sexy (um, don't most guys wish for a wife who wears nothing but black lace?) can do some damage. There's more, of course, but I am trying to keep this from becoming a novel.

 

Make the phone calls to him at least once a day to ask him how his day is going, to talk about interesting topics you might have read, say something sexy, etc., to keep the connection while apart. Then make efforts to be connected while together. Make a rule that when dinner is served, you both eat at the table, without the T.V. on, and engage in conversation. Make an effort to snuggle, touch, kiss, massage, and show affection/attention while he's at home, even if he is watching T.V., reading or doing something else at the time. I often go up to my husband while he's busy with something, or while he's watching T.V., and just give him a hug and a kiss. And if one goes to bed at a different time than the other, then make sure you give/get that goodnight hug and kiss beforehand. There is a lot the OP can do to keep the closeness.

 

I admit I don't make the phone calls (mainly because his schedule is erratic whereas I am easy to reach), but I always ask about his day and talk about topics that interest him. He hasn't done that for me in years. I sometimes try talking about my days without waiting to be asked, but usually he then seems to find a reason to get off the phone.

 

Shutting the TV off is a good idea. We do go out to dinner sometimes, and then we usually do have nice conversations.

 

I would love, love, love to give him massages or rub his back but he doesn't like to be touched much and hates back rubs (always has, even when things were good between us). I only stopped making sure we had a goodnight kiss a couple of months ago, when I just got tired of feeling like I was bothering him.

 

And she can certainly institute affection/attention during the day and evening, but she can't dictate it, or it will turn him off.

 

That makes sense. I avoided asking for things at first, but then he asked me to be specific about what I wanted from him. Then when I am specific, he doesn't do it. Maybe he didn't realize that that wouldn't work either. Plus, I'm not sure that I even want affection that has to be asked for. But that leaves me scratching my head about what I am supposed to do.

 

Also, does anyone have experience with MC with one unwilling partner? Can a good therapist bring him around, or would his disbelief in therapy of any kind be too much of an obstacle?

[tangledweb]

I have a friend, and she is in a similar boat. I have offered to beat her husband over the head with a shovel, because I do not want him to experience the pain I've had over my pending divorce. Of course I feel for her situation,too. We are friends, because we accidentally shared some info, and dang if her story did not mirror my wife's. It is a sad situation and a no-win, if it goes to divorce.

 

That said, In my case. I was blind and complacent about the relationship. I'm going to generalize, and say many men are. When they are fat dumb & happy, we honestly do not recognize the effort you put forth. -- not that we don't appreciate it. Just too fat dumb & socially stupid to recognize it. (ok at least I was, sorry fellow "men") Taken for granted it the key phrase she used.

 

We went to MC, but she had built up a wall of resentment that would make Pink Floyd's look like a picket fence. Before this happens to you, let me save you the first $$ installment of MC. My MC prescribed the 5 love languages by Gary Chapman. I believe it could have been worthwhile if it was done earlier in our crisis. You seem to be willing to try. Mine was not. Not with any true intent. Slip it in his suitcase before the next trip.

 

I will side somewhat with KathyM. I think you can step up your game to improve that connection. I understand, he needs to reciprocate, and you need to keep the resentment in check (difficult) while you give your efforts a try. Hopefully he will see the inequality of the effort in the relationship & come around.

 

My STBX reached the point of 'shutdown' common in walk away wives, and shutdown she did. I'm glad you're seeking help before you get to this point!

[maybealone]

Coupled with his clear neglect of your reasonable companionship requests, I believe you may be experiencing the effects of being treated as a non-person. What do you think about that? Do you ever feel like a non-person in your marriage?

 

I don't know if non-person is the right word, but I feel unimportant. He will tell me over and over again that I mean a lot of him and that he finds me interesting and attractive, but I don't feel like his actions match up with those words.

 

My STBX reached the point of 'shutdown' common in walk away wives, and shutdown she did. I'm glad you're seeking help before you get to this point!

 

Honestly, I think the problem is that I waited until I was at that point. I will always regret that. But I still want to try and not have to live with more regrets. And I accept gender differences and we have talked about them. I have told him I take full responsibility for letting things get this bad because I understand that men (in the general sense) don't want to rock the boat and aren't going to want to discuss a relationship unless they absolutely have to.

 

Because of that wait, I do have a wall of resentment, and I guess I feel like even a miniscule amount of effort on his part might help chip away at it. Not wanting to spend Christmas with me or even send me a card isn't going to make that wall come crashing down.

 

Thank you so much for the book recommendation. I will read it. I tried giving him another book but he has said he won't read relationship books. Maybe one person reading it will be enough though.

[norajane]

Another book recommendation: Light His Fire and Light Her Fire.

 

The books are full of little things you can do (or say) that can help bring back some of the affection between you.

 

But...did you say you haven't had sex for 4 years? Do you think he's been having affairs during this time? It's unusual for men to not want to have any sex at all.

[maybealone]

But...did you say you haven't had sex for 4 years? Do you think he's been having affairs during this time? It's unusual for men to not want to have any sex at all.

 

I would not rule it out, but I doubt it. Maybe now that he travels he would have time for something physical, but I cannot remember him ever making an excuse to leave the house without me before he got the job and while he is now home. I wouldn't rule out something non-physical over the computer, though I'm not sure that would explain no sex.

 

He has told me he has a low sex drive and that he does not want to go to the doctor for it. He also thinks I do not initiate enough but doesn't remember that he has rejected me pretty much every time I have ever initiated (even when things were good between us). Honestly, my drive has always been higher than his so if initiating worked, I'd be initiating all the time.

 

Thanks for another book recommendation! He will be traveling a lot over the next couple of months, and I plan to do some reading when he's gone.

[tangledweb]

..... I tried giving him another book but he has said he won't read relationship books. Maybe one person reading it will be enough though.

 

The ONE thing I learned which will make me a good 2nd husband, should I get that opportunity: You need to manage the relationship, just like you would finances, or your career. I did not know this. I suspect he does not either.

 

I thought relationships just happened. How naive I was. I would bet he would read a book about his career field. He doesn't see the parallel.

[RecordProducer]

I finally started talking to my husband about our problems.

 

I already have a lot of resentment built up.

Most men hate talking about marital problems and can easily sense the resentment toward them.

 

 

Strangely enough though, he was the first to bring up divorce and then suggested it three or four more times, but then the minute I start to agree with him, he takes it back and says that's not what he wants.

This tells me that he loves you but he's trying to tell you that he's not quite happy with YOU - hence the divorce threats.

 

I understand that change is a two-way street, but I have explained to him that the emotional and physical neglect I have felt over the years has left me very hurt, and that I would like to see some improvement in him first before I let my guard down.

This is the equivalent of the judge reading the death sentence. The defendant is not dead yet, but he's sentenced. You told your husband that you're unhappy and it's all his fault because he failed as a husband- he failed you. This is what the books say. This is what I told both my husbands. Now ex-husbands. I don't know why but men hate to hear it or to see it in our demeanor. Just like they hate to hear that they haven't made us orgasm. The female nature is different. Guys don't want criticism and blame. More than anything, they want to see their woman happy. Ain't that great for us?

 

Basically, I feel like I shouldn't push the subject with him unless I think it's a reasonable complaint, mainly because he is very good at twisting things into being all my fault.

Of course! And you twist things into being his fault. That's how he sees it. There's no point in talking. Most men don't understand words, they only understand the language of action. Or words that announce or describe an action, e.g. "I am packing my bags and leaving" or "I cheated on you."

 

You need to wake the love and passion again. Remember your first days, your dating phase? Be happy and cheerful; full of energy and ehtusiasm for him, for yourself and life overall. Be spontaneously sexy (no stripping shows! unless the moment is right), go out with your friends a bit to invoke his possessive, animalistic instinct. Don't be clingy. Just be happy, relaxed and sexy.

 

Let it last for a while and don't ask him for anything. After all, it's not the end of the world if your marriage is a bit stale right now. Be his friend, flirt, smile, ask him about his problems at work... Do not get mad at him or show any signs of upset if he ignores you. Your behavior shouldn't look like a desperate attempt to win his affection back.

 

And if all this seems too unnatural to you, then maybe you understand why things aren't as good. You've grown apart and away from the people you fell in love with. But this is not irreparairable. All I am saying is you can't just talk and complain and revive the passion like that. You'll need the same things as when you first met: enthusiasm, friendship, and joy. You start first.

 

tell me until three days before Christmas that he wasn't coming home, so it wasn't really enough time for me to get vacation time at work and a reasonable plane ticket.

He was running away from you or punishing you. Forget about the past hurt, you must let go of the resentment if you want to make the marriage work. You love him, don't you? Edited December 27, 2011 by RecordProducer

[tangledweb]

Most men hate talking about marital problems and can easily sense the resentment toward them.

I felt the pressure from 'we need to talk'.

 

...Most men don't understand words, they only understand the language of action. Or words that announce or describe an action, e.g. "I am packing my bags and leaving" or "I cheated on you."

Exactly, terse actions. In hindsight she would say something like "I need you to be closer with me", I would say "I'm sitting right next to you", or try to extract an action "yeah, but what do you want me to do?". We often don't have the emotional vocabulary to keep up with women. I'm not sure I do now. One thing, I wish STBX had been clear in my language. Is it fair that you have to make the effort to translate, honestly, no. I didn't realize her needs were twisted in metaphors & feeling language which made sense to her.

[maybealone]

Thanks again for the posts, this is very helpful. Let me just add that lack of passion is not the only problem in the marriage. If it was, I would probably be willing to live with it if I couldn't fix it.

 

This is the equivalent of the judge reading the death sentence. The defendant is not dead yet, but he's sentenced.

 

This statement is very helpful, and I think it probably does describe how these conversations have made him feel. I will keep that in mind, thank you.

 

You need to wake the love and passion again. Remember your first days, your dating phase? Be happy and cheerful; full of energy and ehtusiasm for him, for yourself and life overall. Be spontaneously sexy (no stripping shows! unless the moment is right), go out with your friends a bit to invoke his possessive, animalistic instinct. Don't be clingy. Just be happy, relaxed and sexy.

 

I did all this and more for over two years. I am still doing all of it now, except there is now a lack of enthusiasm for him, and that there is no point in being spontaneously sexy when all it gets me is him telling me that I'm not sexy or that I look/act ridiculous.

 

I go out with friends because he wants me to, because he knows I like to go out and he doesn't. There is no possessive, animalistic instinct though. He doesn't even ask who I went out with or what I have done. I have always been grateful that he is not the jealous type, but I really wish there was at least a slight interest in my life.

 

You start first.

 

That seems to be the majority opinion here, and it is what my husband is telling me. But I did all that for two years with no response from him, I honestly don't know if I have it in me to try another year or two or however long it will take.

 

You love him, don't you?

 

No. I believe that it's possible to fall back in love but I don't love him right now.

 

Exactly, terse actions. In hindsight she would say something like "I need you to be closer with me", I would say "I'm sitting right next to you", or try to extract an action "yeah, but what do you want me to do?".

 

Here is where I get confused. I'm not supposed to tell him what I need, but I'm not supposed to expect him to figure it out either? I have never believed that I should expect a man to read my mind, and he has asked me to be very clear with him about what I want. That is what I have been doing.

 

Here's an example. On weeknights when he's not traveling, I have to go to bed at 10 p.m. and he likes to watch TV until 2 a.m. or so. I have told him that I would love it if he came to bed with me, even if he only stayed a few minutes, just because I like having him there when I fall asleep. He won't. Once in a while he will come and kiss me goodnight, and when I try to pull him in the bed he tells me about whatever it is he's watching on TV and how he has to get back to it.

 

I think the biggest issue for me right now is to figure out how to let go of the pain and resentment I feel (or really, if I can let it go). I don't think it will be easy though -- the past four years have truly been the most heartbreaking years of my life.

[Forever Learning]

It sounds to me this guy is just stalling getting divorce for some reason. The first reason that comes to mind when that is the situation, is the person is trying to seek legal advice to develop the best strategy for the divorce and/or dispose of assets. Another reason people stall divorce is to develop and collect evidence against their spoiuse for things they can use against them in court. Yet another reason people put off divorce is they are just procrastinating and avoiding the trauma of divorce. I don't know if your husband is up to any of this, but I am mentioning it anyway.

 

Ok so maybe this will help you. I was with a guy 16 years. He was cold and unavailable like your guy. He put off getting divorced because he didn't want to pay child support and have to find another place to live.

 

You said your husband twists around everything to make it your fault. That is a classic indicator of a person who won't take responsibility for his own actions/ faults. It is also a sign of immaturity, and a nasty personality. My husband was like that. He had Narcissistic Personality Disorder (a genuine psychiatric disorder) - they are extremely manipulative people. You can learn more about that here: http://www.lisaescott.com/

 

My husband had a low sex drive. That's how he was able to put off divorce and remain cold and distant and not want sex, either with me or anyone else. It just didn't phase him. His main concern was keeping a roof over his head and not having to move out. So he fed me many lies, manipulations and inconsistencies to confuse me, 'gaslight' me (a form of lying) and otherwise keep me off balance, off kilter, and generally very unsure about everything. He also would twist EVERYTHING and make it seem like my fault. A classic sign of a person with a really BIG personality problem.

 

I tried to get him to go to marriage counseling. I went for 2 years, BY MYSELF. Never met anyone else who did that (just meathead me). He didn't go because he didn't want to hear the counselor tell him that he was being emotionally abusive and manipulating me. By the way, people with personality disorders are not cureable. It is a permanent component of their personality. Just so you know. They also tend to try to lie and manipulate the marriage counselor as well.

 

Bottom line - your husband is acting very strangely, avoiding you so much. This is not a healthy marriage obviously. If he twists things to be your fault, that is a BIG RED FLAG for you to think seriously about.

 

You should try individual counseling FIRST. You need to talk to a therapist and learn what a healthy marriage/relationship is like. Without your husband there to have any wacky input to distract you from what the couselor tells you. This will require more than just a few sessions, by the way. It is a learning process for you, to open your eyes as to why your husband is acting this way, and what a healthy relationship should be like. The way your husband is currently treating you is cold and cruel. It's emotional abuse, plain and simple.

 

Read all you can around here and elsewhere, to open your eyes and learn from the advice of others. Life is too short to be unhappy. Because of my own confusion and low self esteem, I stayed with a cold, manipulative guy for 16 years. Don't make that mistake. Counseling is the best bet for helping you become aware of what it is that makes a healthy relationship and marriage, and whether or not yours is salvageable or if you should just move on. Best of luck to you!

[PinkInTheLimo]

Sorry to hear that you are in this situation.

 

I think you are very committed to your marriage but your husband is not. If he does not want to change, there is nothing you can do.

 

I would just ask him if he still wants to be married to you because his behaviour is basically telling you he does not want to be married to you. Not being with you with Xmas is unacceptable. It would in any case be for me.

 

Your needs are not met in this marriage and it seems to me he does not want to meet your needs. I would call it a day and ask for a divorce. I just don't see what you can do to change his behaviour, and it seems to me that he is the one at fault.

[PinkInTheLimo]

But I did all that for two years with no response from him, I honestly don't know if I have it in me to try another year or two or however long it will take.

 

Stop trying. It only makes you more exhausted and frustrated. He does not return anything.

 

Seems to me that you might get some result by mirroring his behaviour and being as indifferent to him as he is to you, but you are not that kind of person and that's a good thing.

[Steadfast]

That is a classic indicator of a person who won't take responsibility for his own actions/ faults. It is also a sign of immaturity, and a nasty personality..*snip*...it just didn't phase him. His main concern was keeping a roof over his head and not having to move out. So he fed me many lies, manipulations and inconsistencies to confuse me, 'gaslight' me (a form of lying) and otherwise keep me off balance, off kilter, and generally very unsure about everything. He also would twist EVERYTHING and make it seem like my fault. A classic sign of a person with a really BIG personality problem.

 

That's what I planned to write when I read this post. Bringing up divorce then backing off when you react smacks of manipulation. Rejecting you sexually (and humiliating you in your efforts to be attractive) is cruel and evil. Add it all up and I'm not sure what you have, but it sure isn't love.

 

Interesting that you mention 'when things were good', indicating he didn't always act this way. Think hard: was there a defining moment or occurrence in your marriage that could have affected him? People will often turn nasty and uncaring in an effort to punish. Most common is one spouse wants children, one doesn't. Another popular issue is wages and/or career choices. Many men take exception to a woman who (seemingly, or otherwise) puts her career before them. Look back. What happened?

 

Life is too short for this. I personally don't believe this is grounds for divorce (Christ clearly explained the justification when asked) but your husband is not honoring his vows. It is no wonder your love has faded.

 

Kissing his behind isn't the answer, living life to fullest -in spite of him- might be. One more hint of emotional (or physical) abuse gives you moral and ethical grounds to leave him and move on. Let him file. Let him deal.

 

Many, many men dream of and would deeply appreciate a loving wife. It takes a real man to treat a woman properly. Your husband isn't one.

[RecordProducer]

I think you should separate. At this point, that's probably your best chance to either make him want to work on the marriage or - if he's still not trying - file for divorce.

 

Do you have employment?

[maybealone]

Yet another reason people put off divorce is they are just procrastinating and avoiding the trauma of divorce.

 

I think this may be the reason. I also think that if we do split, it will be because I ask for a divorce. It doesn't matter how many times he has brought it up, I think it will be important to him to be able to tell people that I left him.

 

Not being with you with Xmas is unacceptable. It would in any case be for me.

 

Thank you for saying this, I was beginning to think I was overreacting. I mean, it's Christmas.

 

Bringing up divorce then backing off when you react smacks of manipulation.

 

Family members have commented in recent years that they think he manipulates me, but I don't see it. (And it's not like they don't like him. They used to comment about how they envied how he looked at me and hung on my every word.)

 

Interesting that you mention 'when things were good', indicating he didn't always act this way. Think hard: was there a defining moment or occurrence in your marriage that could have affected him? People will often turn nasty and uncaring in an effort to punish.

 

I am thinking about this. Things did seem to start to decline after we moved, and although the move was his idea, it ended up benefiting me more. I think that could possibly be part of it.

 

Do you have employment?

 

I have a good job and we don't have kids, so I would be okay in the event of a divorce.

Edited December 31, 2011 by maybealone

[ThinkBelieve]

Maybealone, I am very sorry to hear of your situation. You will get a lot of good, helpful advise here from some very knowledgeable people. I'm not much of a poster and I am not the best one to give advise, and I just now wandered over here... I just couldn't help myself from responding to your post, because it sounds so very similar to my previous situation.

 

You sound like a very successful and intelligent lady who is very unhappy in your marriage. My husband had been acting almost exactly like your husband. Unsure about employment, sexless, etc. I tried to help him, support him, encourage him. He and I grew apart and I didn't realize it was happening. But, looking back, I realize it was completely my issue too, and I do hold myself completely 100 % accountable---I should have communicated instead of distancing.

 

I do empathize with you....I tried to do the same things you did--without any success. Eventually, the disappointment/unhappiness that I had felt in trying to suppress and deny caused me to do something inconsiderate and wrong, and people I care about got hurt.

 

If I may suggest, my advice is this---please communicate with your husband---and try to talk your spouse into marriage counseling before you do anything or make any decisions. It is worth a try. What's a few months of marriage counseling when you consider, as you mentioned, a 14-year marriage? My husband was completely against marriage counseling too. But when things got serious enough, he finally agreed to try it.

 

I would highly recommend marriage counseling for you and your husband because it may offer you both more clarity and understanding, and perhaps, an improved marriage. At least you know you tried.

[maybealone]

He and I grew apart and I didn't realize it was happening. But, looking back, I realize it was completely my issue too, and I do hold myself completely 100 % accountable---I should have communicated instead of distancing.

 

Right or wrong, I have told him that I hold myself 100% accountable. Not in the distancing -- that was both of us -- but in not bringing it up sooner. I accept the gender differences and know men don't like to talk about things let alone be the one to bring them up. While neither one of us should have let our problems go as long as they have, I should have brought them up sooner.

 

Now I feel like what this board calls a "walk-away wife," except I don't want to walk away without feeling like I tried as much as possible. But it's hard to be so far gone as to be at that point, and then be the only one trying to save the marriage. (He says he wants to save it, but so far his actions don't match his words.)

 

If I may suggest, my advice is this---please communicate with your husband---and try to talk your spouse into marriage counseling before you do anything or make any decisions. It is worth a try. What's a few months of marriage counseling when you consider, as you mentioned, a 14-year marriage? My husband was completely against marriage counseling too. But when things got serious enough, he finally agreed to try it.

 

I would highly recommend marriage counseling for you and your husband because it may offer you both more clarity and understanding, and perhaps, an improved marriage. At least you know you tried.

 

We have been discussing our problems for several months now. Not often -- only when I bring it up -- but at least we have been talking. I asked for MC. He thinks all counselors are quacks, but said he would go if I really thought it would work. I'm not sure how well it would work if he doesn't even believe that counseling is real.

 

He knows things are serious, although so far he has been the only one to ask for divorce. (And then take it back.)

 

Also, regarding your husband, may I suggest that you have your husband physically examined by a physician who specializes in physical intimacy? There are differential medical diagnoses that need to be ruled out when a man is lacking desire, ie. diabetes, hypertension, neurological disease, MS, medications, blood supply, etc....is your husband mature (age)? My husband was evaluated at a prestigious specialty clinic and was "normal"...just plain lack of desire...what can I say (sigh)....So that is a lost cause for me. Other areas in my relationship with my spouse are uncertain...But, perhaps your situation is curable???

 

Lastly, to add, you mentioned you and your husband watch TV in separate rooms? I'm not much of a TV person, except for sports, and football; personally, my husband loves his garage; if I may suggest, decreasing the amount of television? Maybealone, would that perhaps be an option for you and your husband?

 

I have asked my husband to see a doctor, because I do suspect a medical problem, but he refuses. He refuses to see doctors for pretty much anything, so that was not surprise to me.

 

I don't watch a lot of TV, and the sports and TV shows that I do watch are ones that he watches also. He just prefers to watch them alone. He will watch some with me, but sits in a separate chair. If I ask him to, he will sit with me, but usually gets up and moves back to the chair in 10 minutes or so.