Woggle Posted December 16, 2011 Posted December 16, 2011 If men are so bad at doing chores why have I been over so many homes of single men that are very clean? How do single men manage to feed themselves if men never cook? They did a time magazine cover showing that amongst many couples these days things are not nearly as lopsided as some pretend they are. Men are not afraid of marriage per-se but what many are afraid is being chewed up and spit our by the system once she gets bored and wants out which is happening often these days. Most men have no issue with monogamy and commitment but they don't want to take the risk when they look at how these are these days.
Sugarkane Posted December 16, 2011 Posted December 16, 2011 It's not only men that lose. Years ago my muns friend was married. He wanted to change careers. So she paid the bills and put him through school. He DIDN'T. When he graduated guess what? There was no problems or anything. One day he just ups and leaves. No reason, no cheating or Anthing. He blames everything on her, makes her out to be a cheater, you name it, which she NEVER did. Then files for divorce. She never remarried. He did and later had kids. My aunt never married. She owns get own home. Maybe she never married coz she doesn't want to lose get assets either! That's what I like about her, she had a career and is independent.
Disenchantedly Yours Posted December 16, 2011 Posted December 16, 2011 OP, I can understand your boyfriend having some fear if he was previously married and his wife cheated on him. However, if he is still using this experience as a reason to dictate his life choices, then he still has a lot of healing to do because he's not in a healthy place. I think some men enjoy being in relationships and love their partner but are only willing to take the relationship "so far". If one partner wants to get married and believes in the institution and the other doesn't and views it as "just a piece of paper", the second person is putting limitiations on how far they are willing to go for the relationship. It would be like you telling your boyfriend that you really do love him and you are willing to do EVERYTHING for him EXCEPT intercourse because of the number of risks involved with intercourse. You would be putting limiations on the level of intimacy you two could achieve. Usually when it comes to sex, men want the ful circle of intimacy. Usually when it comes to relationships, a lot of women want the full circle of a relatoinship. Which does include marriage because it isn't just a piece of paper. I think your boyfriend has some things to personally work on. But if he doesn't want to get married and you do, you two have a HUGE lifestyle issue because you two want a different kind of relationship. 1
Oxy Moronovich Posted December 16, 2011 Posted December 16, 2011 It's not only men that lose. Years ago my muns friend was married. He wanted to change careers. So she paid the bills and put him through school. He DIDN'T. When he graduated guess what? There was no problems or anything. One day he just ups and leaves. No reason, no cheating or Anthing. He blames everything on her, makes her out to be a cheater, you name it, which she NEVER did. Then files for divorce. She never remarried. He did and later had kids. My aunt never married. She owns get own home. Maybe she never married coz she doesn't want to lose get assets either! That's what I like about her, she had a career and is independent. She's also most likely lonely with a broken wing. An "independent woman" is one who is lonely and miserable in her life. She's afraid of getting hurt so she puts up a facade of self-reliance.
dasein Posted December 16, 2011 Posted December 16, 2011 It would be like you telling your boyfriend that you really do love him and you are willing to do EVERYTHING for him EXCEPT intercourse because of the number of risks involved with intercourse. No, it's nothing at all like that. Marriage involves a contract enforced by the state, a third party in a legal regime that is currently hideously biased against men, sex does not.
Negative Nancy Posted December 16, 2011 Posted December 16, 2011 It would be like you telling your boyfriend that you really do love him and you are willing to do EVERYTHING for him EXCEPT intercourse because of the number of risks involved with intercourse. You would be putting limiations on the level of intimacy you two could achieve. Usually when it comes to sex, men want the ful circle of intimacy. Usually when it comes to relationships, a lot of women want the full circle of a relatoinship. Which does include marriage because it isn't just a piece of paper. This is a really great analogy and I agree with you. More girls should use this line on men, maybe it would create more understanding between the genders.
Woggle Posted December 16, 2011 Posted December 16, 2011 Sex is a natural desire while marriage is a man made contract. Not dissing marriage but is not something built into us from nature while sexual desire is. I think more men would be willing to take the plunge if they knew that one day their wife won't all of a sudden decide she is unhappy and take the kids plus make him pay for it all. This is happening at an alarming rate and it scares the hell out of men. When you see what some other men go through it just sends chills up your spine and it happens without warning. One week she can be a loving and faithful wife and the next she hates your guts and wants you out. I wish that women would be more sympathetic to why men fear this. Just think about how you feel when you hear all these cheating stories and how it makes you feel insecure in your relationship. That is how men feel when we hear all these walkaway wife stories.
Negative Nancy Posted December 16, 2011 Posted December 16, 2011 Sex is a natural desire while marriage is a man made contract. Not dissing marriage but is not something built into us from nature while sexual desire is. Marriage may not be a natural desire, but the intention behind it is. Women want marriage because it gives them security for their offspring and THAT is a natural desire just as much as sex is.
Negative Nancy Posted December 16, 2011 Posted December 16, 2011 (edited) I wish that women would be more sympathetic to why men fear this. Just think about how you feel when you hear all these cheating stories and how it makes you feel insecure in your relationship. That is how men feel when we hear all these walkaway wife stories. I know, and I am sympathetic. Both genders don't have it easy nowadays. I don't know how to bridge the gap yet, though, because it seems both genders have their own valid reasons for holding back and nothing good comes out of it, just more distrust and misunderstandings. It seems like no side wants to give in first and make the first move. Edited December 16, 2011 by Negative Nancy
Woggle Posted December 16, 2011 Posted December 16, 2011 I know, and I am sympathetic. Both genders don't have it easy nowadays. I don't know how to bridge the gap yet, though, because it seems both genders have their own valid reasons for holding back and nothing good comes out of it, just more distrust and misunderstandings. It seems like no side wants to give in first and make the first move. This I agree with. I wish both sides would drop their weapons at the same time but I don't how to make that happen.
dasein Posted December 16, 2011 Posted December 16, 2011 This is a really great analogy and I agree with you. More girls should use this line on men, maybe it would create more understanding between the genders. Wrong, it would only bring resentment because it is a ridiculously bad analogy. Here's a more apt analogy: Someone insisting on involving the state in what could otherwise be a loving relationship for life without state involvement, is the equivalent of someone refusing to continue to have sex with their SO unless the SO allows their unpredictable, psychotic sibling to move into the guest bedroom of the SO's house for life.
thatone Posted December 16, 2011 Posted December 16, 2011 If men are so bad at doing chores why have I been over so many homes of single men that are very clean? How do single men manage to feed themselves if men never cook? They did a time magazine cover showing that amongst many couples these days things are not nearly as lopsided as some pretend they are. honestly, because those men who don't have to pay for some woman's crap can easily afford restaurants and maids.
azsinglegal Posted December 16, 2011 Posted December 16, 2011 I may be more cynical than most, but any man I've dated that said "marriage is just a piece of paper" it wasn't that he didn't want to get married, it's that he didn't want to marry me.
Ross MwcFan Posted December 16, 2011 Posted December 16, 2011 I'll never get married, even if I could attract women offline. I don't see the point, just so you can both be chained together, making a breakup up all the more harder to do, and way more of an upheaval? To me marridge doesn't feel like it would enhance anything.
Negative Nancy Posted December 16, 2011 Posted December 16, 2011 I may be more cynical than most, but any man I've dated that said "marriage is just a piece of paper" it wasn't that he didn't want to get married, it's that he didn't want to marry me. that's exactly it. often these men that don't wanna marry all of a sudden are married to the next broad within 6 months. magical
azsinglegal Posted December 16, 2011 Posted December 16, 2011 that's exactly it. often these men that don't wanna marry all of a sudden are married to the next broad within 6 months. magical Indeed. 6 months - 1 year, they're married to someone else.
Disenchantedly Yours Posted December 17, 2011 Posted December 17, 2011 No, it's nothing at all like that. Marriage involves a contract enforced by the state, a third party in a legal regime that is currently hideously biased against men, sex does not. Amazingly enough, I agree with you Dasein as far as the fact that marriage does involve legal properties that do sometimes have a biased against men. However, my reference is more about expectations that stereotypically men and women desire to achieve a certain level of intimacy.
Disenchantedly Yours Posted December 17, 2011 Posted December 17, 2011 This is a really great analogy and I agree with you. More girls should use this line on men, maybe it would create more understanding between the genders. Thanks NN!
FitChick Posted December 17, 2011 Posted December 17, 2011 There are some people who live together for a long time, have kids, yet still choose to get married. It must be different or they wouldn't do it. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2074204/The-day-I-finally-realised-marriage-matters.html
dasein Posted December 17, 2011 Posted December 17, 2011 There are some people who live together for a long time, have kids, yet still choose to get married. It must be different or they wouldn't do it. Yeah, they want to have a big party, get gifts and go on a trip (if they are from certain cultures, the money gifts pay for the trip and the party, maybe even gets them out of debt). That's the difference.
123321 Posted December 17, 2011 Posted December 17, 2011 Start buying lottery tickets and when you win say, "If we were married, half of this would be yours but now it's ALL MINE!" The odds are surely in favor of THAT happening .... With more and more women becoming the main breadwinners in their marriage, I predict men will be objecting less and less to marriage. And they'll object less and less to divorce. More guys will take the cue from Kevin Federline and feed women their own medicine by demanding huge divorce settlements they don't deserve. Instead of women being the main initiators of divorce, men will be the main ones. When that happens to any significant degree, expect family law to undergo a huge and sudden change. Suddenly the standard men have been held to for so long will be seen as "unjust" and will have to be fixed, posthaste.
Stung Posted December 17, 2011 Posted December 17, 2011 Yeah, they want to have a big party, get gifts and go on a trip (if they are from certain cultures, the money gifts pay for the trip and the party, maybe even gets them out of debt). That's the difference. My husband and I lived together for a few years, had joint bank accounts and a son before we married. Our wedding consisted of twelve people (close family only) having a barbecue on the beach, our honeymoon was a week in a cabin in the woods at that same beach, and we asked everyone to give to their favorite charity instead of bringing gifts. We brought our parents along on the honeymoon and paid to rent them their own cabins--granted, we did have ulterior motives, as we wanted the grandparents to babysit our kids some of the time so we could have some time alone. It's just one datapoint, but being married feels symbolically different to us. More enduring, more meaningful, more romantic. I don't believe everybody should feel that way, but neither do I believe that those who do feel that way should be denigrated.
Untouchable_Fire Posted December 17, 2011 Posted December 17, 2011 OP, I can understand your boyfriend having some fear if he was previously married and his wife cheated on him. However, if he is still using this experience as a reason to dictate his life choices, then he still has a lot of healing to do because he's not in a healthy place. I think some men enjoy being in relationships and love their partner but are only willing to take the relationship "so far". If one partner wants to get married and believes in the institution and the other doesn't and views it as "just a piece of paper", the second person is putting limitiations on how far they are willing to go for the relationship. It would be like you telling your boyfriend that you really do love him and you are willing to do EVERYTHING for him EXCEPT intercourse because of the number of risks involved with intercourse. You would be putting limiations on the level of intimacy you two could achieve. Usually when it comes to sex, men want the ful circle of intimacy. Usually when it comes to relationships, a lot of women want the full circle of a relatoinship. Which does include marriage because it isn't just a piece of paper. I don't think you can make either of these statements work. The guy has the marriage experience under his belt and didn't like it. He can be very much over it emotionally and be uninterested in marriage. You are literally trying to infer that the natural state of a healthy person is to want marriage. The fact is that most logical or sane men won't want it at all. How does marriage increase intimacy? Having been married once myself, I can say for certainty that marriage kills intimacy. Those marriages that have great intimacy... have it despite marriage... and perhaps would have greater intimacy without it.
mysteriousbox Posted December 17, 2011 Posted December 17, 2011 I guess there was truth to my law professors favorite saying "Prepare for your marriage by preparing for your divorce".
Disenchantedly Yours Posted December 17, 2011 Posted December 17, 2011 I don't think you can make either of these statements work. The guy has the marriage experience under his belt and didn't like it. He can be very much over it emotionally and be uninterested in marriage. You are literally trying to infer that the natural state of a healthy person is to want marriage. The fact is that most logical or sane men won't want it at all. How does marriage increase intimacy? Having been married once myself, I can say for certainty that marriage kills intimacy. Those marriages that have great intimacy... have it despite marriage... and perhaps would have greater intimacy without it. Untouchable, I am not insinuating anything about what the "natural state of a healthy person is". I am explaing to you how most women who are interested in marriage are going to see it. THey are going to consider marriage the completely circle of intimacy. And if a man doens't agree and puts stipulations and barriers up, he is basically saying to her "this is as far as I go". Now you can disagree with that or that man can disagree with that but if that woman views marriage as part of a healthy committed relationship, that's what's going to be the tipping point. When women put stipulations on the level of imtimacy they are willing to go sexually with their partner, men are usually unhappy with that. Men want their partner to be vulnerable and open with them sexually. And they see certain sexual practices as an extention and reflection of that. The same applies to women and marriage. If a woman is interested in marriage herself, she is going to see his willingness to be married to her on a different level then a guy that only wants to be her boyfriend. I do not claim this applies to everyone or that the only kind of relationship that is "healthy" is a married one. I only say this to point out how women that believe and want to be married are going to see this. If they want to be married but their man doesn't, she is going to see him putting up a barrier regarding their relationship. Where he is saying "this is only as far as I go".
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