Tough to let it go.

[MyApology]

Two thoughts.

 

First...you consistently claim that there is no competition at all in your mind between you and his wife...and yet you consistently post little snippets of things that you see as negative about her.

 

Non sequiter.

 

Second...your more recent posts indicate that you're starting to see that this isn't the best path for you...great...so what are you going to do about it?

 

If you feel that the situation should change...change the situation.

 

What are you doing to change the situation?

 

Oh my there is no competition, if you wish there to be and we can move on to other issues, yes there is competition! There are always going to be comparisons but competition I see as a completely different ball game.

I do not believe I have overstepped any boundaries when describing how I see her. I was actually trying to be nice when protraying a picture of her. I could have been nasty but that is not in my character. She may be beautiful on the inside, outside qualities as pointed out by another poster just makes it shallow. He obviously is accepting of how she looks, he is with her.

[Owl]

Oh my there is no competition, if you wish there to be and we can move on to other issues, yes there is competition! There are always going to be comparisons but competition I see as a completely different ball game.

I do not believe I have overstepped any boundaries when describing how I see her. I was actually trying to be nice when protraying a picture of her. I could have been nasty but that is not in my character. She may be beautiful on the inside, outside qualities as pointed out by another poster just makes it shallow. He obviously is accepting of how she looks, he is with her.

 

Even in THIS reply...

 

And it avoids the meat of my post to you...so...what are you going to do now to change the situation?

[norajane]

And see THAT is the difference between he and I. I feel going out with another is cheating, isn't that crazy. I feel I should be honest if I do, that is why I have been holding back going on a date with him. I really wish I did not allow myself to get knee deep in this sh*t!!!

 

Will you also be honest with the single guy and let him know you are mired in an affair with MM?

[Quiet Storm]

My guess if you bring up going on a date with another guy, MM will definitely have an issue with that.

 

Don't take his jealousy as a sign of love. It is not love, but selfishness. He doesn't want another guy playing with his toy. He wants to keep you on the shelf waiting until HE'S ready to play.

 

You can inform MM that he is married, and that you have every right to date others. Which is true. But MM don't play fair. He wants it all. He wants his wife AND another women to be happy and content. You should be happy and content with just him.

 

If you do hook up with another guy, MM will view it as a betrayal and never let you live it down. He will put a big guilt trip on you. How can he have such a double standard when he is married himself? Because he is not emotionally healthy. He wants what he wants and doesn't care if he is fair or not.

 

As far as the other guy goes, don't use him to play games with MM. It's not fair to him and his feelings. If he just wants you for sex, he won't care about you and MM. If he actually likes you, finding out that you are willing to be some married dude's side piece will knock your value down a few pegs and he will likely no longer see you as long term relationship material.

 

As far as the competition thing goes. The tone in your posts show that you think you are the better deal, which is what almost all other women think. And I get it because he tells you how horrible the wife is, so you think "how could he want that over me?".

 

What most OW don't realize is that MM is not looking to replace his wife. So it doesn't matter how great OW is, how hot she is is, how great her BJs are, how good of a cook she is....none of that matters because his wife role has already been filled. MM want OW to be the best OW she can be, but it won't prompt him to leave his wife.

 

Most MM's thought process is that his wife is part of his family unit, and is not interchangeable. OW's role is interchangeable. The family unit remains constant. In his mind, to consider trading W for OW would be like trading his kid for a kid that was cuter and smarter.

 

Many tired OW go no contact with MM so he will miss her, hoping it will prompt him to make a decision. Rarely does it ever prompt him to get a divorce. Most of the time, OW misses him so much that he succeeds in getting OW to be content in her role again. Or he moves on to a new other woman.

 

I know you are having a hard time letting go of this guy. Although his attention feels so good, he really doesn't have anything positive to offer you.

[PhoenixRise]

I can see why you would wonder this. I definitely would run quickly if I saw any hints of a sociopath. It is hard to write correctly what goes on in relationships. He shows genuine care towards me, not the hokey pokey care a sociopath can fake. Many times if he misinterprets something I express or write, gives me a call from work, I can hear the lump in his throat, and when he senses I am okay, all is right, he is relieved, and happy he can sense I am smiling. He is kind, funny, and sweet in all our times together. I cannot think of anything off unless it has to do with his other life.

He is an extremely confused man, I know this. Wrestling with what he trully wishes for and the feeling he has to do what is expected of him is taking its toll on him. This comes from him when we talk about the issues in our lives.

 

MyApology

 

You have posted that you were in at least 2 abusive relationships (1 long term if I remember correctly) before you got involved with this MM.

 

Did the men who abused you previously ever display genuine emotion towards you? Did you ever forgive and excuse their behavior due to pressure or confusion they were feeling?

 

I think your ability to truly discern reality and real motivations in your relationships is not as clear as you think.

 

Did you ever get any counseling or any type of help in dealing with the aftereffects of being in two abusive relationships?

[MyApology]

I completely understand all you are saying. He can be angry and sulk all he wishes to, he is married and has me, so who is he to tell me I cannot see another man. If he makes the decision to see others or whatever he chooses, he loses me. His loss.

He is stuck in his misery in which he is too cowardly to change. He can continue to seek replacements for all which is missing in his marriage. He will be in a lopsided never ending loop, not I:)

I do not plan on seeing single guy while I am seeing MM. And my past relationships's are none of his business. It is never advised to spill your past and guts on dates. Why would I do that.

[MyApology]

MyApology

 

You have posted that you were in at least 2 abusive relationships (1 long term if I remember correctly) before you got involved with this MM.

 

Did the men who abused you previously ever display genuine emotion towards you? Did you ever forgive and excuse their behavior due to pressure or confusion they were feeling?

 

I think your ability to truly discern reality and real motivations in your relationships is not as clear as you think.

 

Did you ever get any counseling or any type of help in dealing with the aftereffects of being in two abusive relationships?

 

I was doing really well, and not placing any value or interest in dating. I even put off dating when asked by really nice men. Than Bam....came guy...full force, it was like being hit by a semi. I do wonder if I am staying in this because it is safe, really where is it going to go.

[norajane]

I completely understand all you are saying. He can be angry and sulk all he wishes to, he is married and has me, so who is he to tell me I cannot see another man. If he makes the decision to see others or whatever he chooses, he loses me. His loss.

He is stuck in his misery in which he is too cowardly to change. He can continue to seek replacements for all which is missing in his marriage. He will be in a lopsided never ending loop, not I:)

I do not plan on seeing single guy while I am seeing MM. And my past relationships's are none of his business. It is never advised to spill your past and guts on dates. Why would I do that.

 

He's already made a decision to stay with his wife. He's not acting to divorce, so he's staying.

 

But you are still with him, planning his family vacations. So? Where is it "his loss"?

[Owl]

So what is it that you actually WANT out of this situation with MM???

 

And what are you doing to resolve the situation?

[LadyGrey]

MyApology

 

You have posted that you were in at least 2 abusive relationships (1 long term if I remember correctly) before you got involved with this MM.

 

Did the men who abused you previously ever display genuine emotion towards you? Did you ever forgive and excuse their behavior due to pressure or confusion they were feeling?

 

I think your ability to truly discern reality and real motivations in your relationships is not as clear as you think.

 

Did you ever get any counseling or any type of help in dealing with the aftereffects of being in two abusive relationships?

 

 

I have observed something about the above dynamic while here at LS and in my own life. Women who have been in an abusive relationships are more vulnerable to getting involved with a mm. On one level you see yourself as strong and capable because you got out of the abusive relationship but yet if you don't take the time to understand why you were vulnerable to one in the 1st place, you repeat the experience, often times not in the exact way but still you set yourself up to be at a disadvantage. I suspect the ow at first thinks she is in a more powerful position since she isn't being abused, but yet given time and emotional involvement she often finds that being an ow is worse than abuse on many levels.

 

Yes I'm sharing some of my own insight here from personal experience.

[MyApology]

I am giving him the benefit of a doubt before I kick the whole deal to the curb. The what ifs.

[LadyGrey]

I completely understand all you are saying. He can be angry and sulk all he wishes to, he is married and has me, so who is he to tell me I cannot see another man. If he makes the decision to see others or whatever he chooses, he loses me. His loss.

He is stuck in his misery in which he is too cowardly to change. He can continue to seek replacements for all which is missing in his marriage. He will be in a lopsided never ending loop, not I:)

I do not plan on seeing single guy while I am seeing MM. And my past relationships's are none of his business. It is never advised to spill your past and guts on dates. Why would I do that.

 

You've posted the bolded or something similar more than once so I wanted to comment on it.

 

Many of an ow believe the fallacy that his marriage is miserable and that he is too cowardly to walk. Believing that when you don't know it as fact is doing yourself a great disservice. You think because he has had other affairs that it means his marriage is really bad and given the right woman (maybe yourself) he will leave the marriage and quit f'ing around. I so hope you can get the concept that he is the one who is broken, sure the marriage is probably broken too but someone who is a serial cheater, breaks everything and everyone including his wife. He tells you how unhappy he is, but really people who are really miserable change things on their own. He isn't unhappy enough to leave, he is just unhappy enough to f around. Big Difference!

[LadyGrey]

I am giving him the benefit of a doubt before I kick the whole deal to the curb. The what ifs.

 

What happened to that woman in the other thread who saw clearer and wasn't going to get herself in any deeper? Where is she at?

 

You need to find her before you are in up to your eyeballs?

[MyApology]

He did mention that he was in trouble a few weeks ago. I questioned why, and he said she knows. I replied knows what. He said she knows. I asked was he crazy and why he would risk all. He told me I was worth it. But, this is nutty in itself and now speaking of it again on the forum has made me see how wrong all of this really is. I do not want to be on the heels of a woman's fury. This is all just too much for me. I can be strong and not be so stupid. This is way over my head for comfort.

[MyApology]

I would love to hear what his past other women would have to say about him, especially the 2 which called his wife. I bet that would be interesting and an eyeopener!!!

[chalkfarm]

Many times if he misinterprets something I express or write, gives me a call from work, I can hear the lump in his throat, and when he senses I am okay, all is right, he is relieved, and happy he can sense I am smiling. He is kind, funny, and sweet in all our times together. I cannot think of anything off unless it has to do with his other life.

He is an extremely confused man, I know this. Wrestling with what he trully wishes for and the feeling he has to do what is expected of him is taking its toll on him. This comes from him when we talk about the issues in our lives.

 

You are being played.

 

You can't see it when you are in it. It's like trying to read the fine print when it is shoved up to your nose.

 

In order to really "see", you must pull away and really look at what is being done to you, how you are being used and manipulated.

 

When we are treated poorly in small incremental ways, we tend to dismiss the treatment. We feel lucky we have the "good stuff". It's not until we realize that our self respect, our strength, our self worth, and our personal value is completely eroded that we can see how we were duped.

 

This is a tactic used by dictators for centuries. Take away a few rights and the people feel lucky that their others rights are still intact. Tell them they must live together in a certain area and they feel blessed that they still have the security of the government. Tell them they are going to work camps and they are glad to still be alive.

 

It is only afterward that we can see the trail to the massacre.

 

And yes, this is extreme. But I feel that I was destroyed. I was slaughtered. I was eviscerated in front of my own eyes. And it was all for him and his own selfish desires.

 

Your married man WILL NEVER CARE about what happens to you. Abusers DON'T CARE. This is the God's honest truth.

[PhoenixRise]

I was doing really well, and not placing any value or interest in dating. I even put off dating when asked by really nice men. Than Bam....came guy...full force, it was like being hit by a semi. I do wonder if I am staying in this because it is safe, really where is it going to go.

 

 

So are you saying that this MM is the first guy you have been seriously involved with since you got out of the abusive relationship?

 

I think it is smart of you to be questioning WHY you are staying in this. Maybe you should get some help (counseling) to help you figure this out. Sometimes it is very hard to see yourself without the help of an objective third party.

[whichwayisup]

He did mention that he was in trouble a few weeks ago. I questioned why, and he said she knows. I replied knows what. He said she knows. I asked was he crazy and why he would risk all. He told me I was worth it. But, this is nutty in itself and now speaking of it again on the forum has made me see how wrong all of this really is. I do not want to be on the heels of a woman's fury. This is all just too much for me. I can be strong and not be so stupid. This is way over my head for comfort.

 

Okay, two things here.. 1) She doesn't know and he's just telling you that to see how you'll react or 2)She is suspicious and is questioning him, and he of course is denying it and lying to her..

 

Bottomline is this. He tells you he wants you and all, but the fact still remains he isn't going to leave or divorce. If she really knew and he wanted OUT, don't you think now would be the time for him to tell her, 'actually yes, it's true, I am having an affair, I'm sorry but I can't be married to you anymore, I want a divorce so I can be with the OW.' Or something along those lines.. He hasn't used this opportunity to end his marriage. Why? Because he is NOT looking to do that, this guy just wants an affair. It really is that simple.

[truthbetold]

He did mention that he was in trouble a few weeks ago. I questioned why, and he said she knows. I replied knows what. He said she knows. I asked was he crazy and why he would risk all. He told me I was worth it. But, this is nutty in itself and now speaking of it again on the forum has made me see how wrong all of this really is. I do not want to be on the heels of a woman's fury. This is all just too much for me. I can be strong and not be so stupid. This is way over my head for comfort.

 

Do you not see how that feeds your ego? And then keeps you trapped? He is setting up the competition and you're buying into it. I mean really, saying someone has a screetchy voice fact or not, is hardly a compliment. You mentioned you're hot and fit, and she's not, again maybe facts but in this situation when you are wondering what he sees in her most definiately scream competition for you. And he knows it. I highly doubt she knows anything he just wants you to think she does, so you'll feel more important.

 

I can't believe you know he's a serial cheater and are buying into you're somehow more special and different than those other women. Then again maybe that's feeding your ego too.

 

You should really re read quiet storm...that's genius stuff.

[MyApology]

gross. he is taking his wife on a vacation to a place you want to go with him too. do you not see this??? do you really keep thinking he is going to be thinking of you when he is there with his wife? please tell us you are not that naive or in a fog.

 

 

 

you are so very jealous of his wife. it comes out in almost every post you write. you want her husband; you want to be married to him. you want her out of your way. he is using you yet you keep thinking he is wooing you. you have no true idea what she thinks or feels; yet every chance you get, you belittle her. why?

 

 

 

i agree

 

 

 

here we are, at the games. you are going to lead on some guy who wants to date you. you are going to tell the mm you are going on a date with some guy while he is on vacation with his wife. and you want him to have payback. this sounds like something that 16 year olds would do and how they would behave.

 

 

 

great post owl.

 

Whatever and you making false assumptions about me makes you any better of a person. Sorry not buying it. I have read far more vulgar post regarding BOTH OW and MW trash talking one another. I cannot change the fact that she is was opposite of what I expected. I do not think that is being anything but honest. I am not going to lie and say she looks like Cindy Crawford to appease you when it is more close to Rosanne Barr. Geesh, just being honest in my postings and i get projection shifted my way.

I have seen very rude and ugly remarks about many things OW, MM, MW. Mine have not even closely resembled them. I had heard her voice and mentioned how it is, a fact.

Yes i take my MM breath away when he sees me, I cannot change that fact either.

One thing is in no way DO I WISH to marry this man. I came here to figure out his behavoir, that is it, other posters obviously those who are scorned BS trolling the post on a board for OM/OW. i do sympathize with her, she is MARRIED to a serial cheater, and he will never be faithful to her.

It is up to them to figure out their marriage. And to your do you think he will be thinking about me when they are on vacation, well yes unless he has another other woman there. I have seen him with his family.

[bentnotbroken]

Whatever and you making false assumptions about me makes you any better of a person. Sorry not buying it. I have read far more vulgar post regarding BOTH OW and MW trash talking one another. I cannot change the fact that she is was opposite of what I expected. I do not think that is being anything but honest. I am not going to lie and say she looks like Cindy Crawford to appease you when it is more close to Rosanne Barr. Geesh, just being honest in my postings and i get projection shifted my way.

I have seen very rude and ugly remarks about many things OW, MM, MW. Mine have not even closely resembled them. I had heard her voice and mentioned how it is, a fact.

Yes i take my MM breath away when he sees me, I cannot change that fact either.

One thing is in no way DO I WISH to marry this man. I came here to figure out his behavoir, that is it, other posters obviously those who are scorned BS trolling the post on a board for OM/OW. i do sympathize with her, she is MARRIED to a serial cheater, and he will never be faithful to her.

It is up to them to figure out their marriage. And to your do you think he will be thinking about me when they are on vacation, well yes unless he has another other woman there. I have seen him with his family.

 

 

If you really took his breath away, there would be no issue for you or her.(yes, I know it is a figure of speech)Why figure out obvious behavior. He is married and cheats with anyone who will cheat with him.

[Quiet Storm]

If you really are so hot that you turn heads and take people's breath away, then why do you feel the attention of a married man is so valuable?

 

It seems that you would be getting attention from many men, including single ones.

 

You have the looks many men want, so why don't you use those attributes to attract an emotionally healthy single man? One that can be positive for you. One that doesn't use you or play you for a fool.

 

There are tons of single, good looking men with bright futures. Why waste your time on a sneaky, married cheater?

 

I just don't get it.

 

Do you somehow feel that you are not worthy of a good man?

[nonamefornow]

MyApology

 

I can guarantee if you mention dating this available guy, MM's jealousy will go into overdrive. Please do not take this as a sign that he loves you but rather he is so selfish and wants you (and his wife) all to himself that he 'can't bear' the thought of another touching you. He may, in more rational moments, agree that you deserve the best (which he can't give you) but ultimately it will be turned around on you, like YOU'VE stepped out on your r/ship with HIM and HE is having a hard time coming to terms with that, despite HIM living with his wife, going home to her every day and leaving you alone.

 

You have admitted he is too weak to leave the marriage (and he will NEVER grow a pair to leave) so what is it that YOU want out of this? You say you are here trying to understand his behaviour......he is a classical narcissist. I am 5/6 weeks clear of a r/ship with a MM who sounds almost identical to yours (weak, confused, selfish yet making me feel important by his words and contact) and yes, he is still at home with his wife despite a mini DDay (I'm sure he downplayed EVERYTHING, or perhaps even blamed me) and even if his life is a bit uncomfortable at the minute, he will ride the storm with HER.

 

Please start thinking selfishly for your own sanity. I understand you don't want to marry this guy but by allowing him to remain in your life you are denying yourself the opportunity to meet someone you may want to marry in the future. He is using you emotionally and physically and I know you have this amazing 'connection' (I had it too) but really this connection means ziltch when all is said and done, he will still swan off on holiday with the woman he seems so disconnected with, he will still go home every evening to have dinner with her, he will look after her or his children should they fall ill, etc, etc. Who will take you on holiday? Who will you dine with this evening? Who will look after you when you're ill? Not him for sure.

 

Good luck and please take care

[MissBee]

Holy cripes. Plan his family's vacation? You're letting this guy say this to you without telling him to "stick it?" Tell him to plan his own family vacation and to quit biting off your ideas. Doesn't he have any original ideas of his own? He is passive aggressively blowing pepper in your face. Nice guy.

 

You are still steeped in the fog pretty deep. I guarantee the air is a lot fresher on the outside. But alas, I do understand how hard it is to detach. It's quite possible it will take many tries before your through. You've received a ton of great advice in this forum - you should print it out and read it everyday until you gather the strength to say enough. Best wishes on your journey.

 

I agree!

 

Okay the planning of his family vacations realllly got me....I was like WTF?! Who does that? Like those going to the APs wedding or someone whose MM would complain about his and the wive's sex life and she'd counsel him...those things were all beyond ridiculous to me. And as you said....you MUST be in some type of fog to agree to these things! Have to. I remember in the fog after my relationship ended with my ex (regular non-A...fog to me implies ANY mental state, induced by ANY thing that makes one's judgment inept) and I agreed to a 3some with him and his ex-wife....WTF?! I THANKFULLY didn't end up going through with that...but now...I have to laugh and am appalled that somehow I convinced myself that it was reasonable...I truly rationalized it then....so yea...when other people or even you look at your choices when you're not foggy...it seems plain that it is ridiculous...but while in it...even the most absurd can scarily be played down as okay.

 

 

But yea....MyAPology, in your other thread I told you you weren't done. As Spice and Emme said...you're going to fall off the wagon and go back and forth until you one day have had enough...or until you're forced, through a DDAY or him being the one to end it, for it to end. That's also something to think about that would propel me to end it...as I'd feel worst dragging my foot then in the end the other person is the one who says it's over. But yea....keep reading the advice here, check out Baggage Reclaim and build up your strength as quite frankly, the reason you got into the situation is also the SAME reason you can't just get out like magic.

[MissBee]

Seriously?

 

I've been reading your previous thread and all the wonder ful advice you were given, yet chose to ignore....

 

 

Seriously.? I very often come out of lurking (dom). But OMF... Seriously!? Girl please.. I believe you are an extremely brilliant young woman who has gotten herself I to a very self destructive relationship. You need to wake the f up and get your s together.

 

WTF is a "talk date"? And why is that an acceptable dating venue for you to even consider? "talk date"? I frankly find that comical.

Come on girl... You are much smarter than this. If I were your girlfriend, I'd seriously smack you in the head... Do you not have any good, straight talking bitches who have your back?

 

All I can say to you is RUN.. You've been given great advice here.. Hope you take it...

 

 

Those are the only kinda chicks I roll with

 

But really....all my very good friends are women with good sense, who know me well enough, who I can depend on when I can't depend on myself to be smart or strong. We all can be smart for others but can't do it for ourselves when we need it most sometimes (and often in love/lust/infatuation...forget it)....so it's good to have people around you who you trust care for you and have good judgment, who aren't in the fog with you and are seeing clearer, who know you and can know when you're unhappy or compromising yourself and tell you straight. They can't make your choices for you....but I know that with that ridiculous 3some charade...my good girlfriends knocked some sense in to me...I didn't want to listen at first but everyday after I'm like wow thank God for them!

 

EVERYTHING I tell women here esp are things I'd tell my friends and have told my friends and things I'd hope someone would tell me. They can't make me do it, I can't make them do it...but at least I'd want someone to give me the option to make a smart choice or avoid a bad one.