Good enough reasons, or not. Discuss

[seren]

One of the questions that came up in relation to Infidelity was to ask those who said they had, had an affair was that if they could have seen how the affair hurt their BS and looked on at the gaslighting and the damage done would they still have had the affair. Hindsight sure, but the consensus was that no, if they had for a moment stopped and thought of, or had a crystal ball and could witness the tears and hurt then they wouldn't have had an A. No one who had been the WS, BS or OW, in this case OM, thought that the affair would hurt so bad. Each of us assumed that it could be dealt with easier and that moving along would have been easier too. None thought that the ends justified the means when faced with the fallout and hurt of D Day.

 

For some they didn't think that they were that loved and that the BS wouldn't have been so affected. This then prompted the question of the role of the BS in the run up to the A and how they might have done things differently, again all hindsight, but communication or the lack of, was a key factor. Not to say that an affair was the way to fix the marriage, of course not, but that for people who are conflict avoiders, looking to fix what was broken by starting something else was not seen as the way to go. I should add this is not aimed at anyone, or any situation previously discussed in this thread, it was the way it went down.

 

One of my friends has since married the man she had an affair with, they are very happy, her contribution was that they both knew once they had met that their marriages were in trouble as they felt so right together, seeing them I can understand this. The XOM said that he left soon into the affair as he felt he was betraying himself by lying to his BS, which prompted the debate of how an affair can damage those in it too. Much discussion of values etc. It felt like 3 yrs of LS threads in one night, thank God for the wine. Leaving the marriage early into the affair was the consensus, if not before it began, as in recognising the marriage was broken and that they felt strong attraction or attachment to the other.

 

This was a debate with drinks, not a counselling group or anything, there were other things discussed, so no one was there with any agenda or anything. On the way home and since both me and H discussed how our communication had broken down and how we had drifted and that he felt not good enough and as he didn't love himself couldn't see how I could either. My bad for not noticing this, his bad for 'choosing' the affair as a salve to his feelings of inadequacy.

[norajane]

the stance on Infidelity was universal. Which I found interesting and conflicting.

 

The question that everyone came back to was if the relationship was so bad that hurting another was the result, then why not leave that situation.

 

I think the question itself assumes external circumstances lead to cheating, but the circumstances in the marriage apply to both partners. The WS is in the same marriage as the BS, yet only the WS cheats.

 

Affairs don't always happen because the relationship 'was hurting so bad'. They often happen because the WS is "messed up". Something within that person was not "ok" - otherwise, they would be able to see and act with logic and clarity and common sense.

 

I think it's not as much about the relationship as it is about the person that's cheating. So it's not about what external circumstances would make it ok to cheat, it's about what within a WS makes it ok for him/her to cheat? What does the affair give that person that they want so badly that they'd hurt their spouse to get it? I think affairs make cheaters feel better about themselves, in some way that is really important to their selves.

 

Ask your friends if someone offered them something they deep-down needed most, something that made them feel "better" about themselves, would they cheat?

[carhill]

For myself, that 'something' was a life preserver. I was ready to check out and don't use those words lightly. I needed validation that I was still sane. Psychosis will do that to one if not sufficiently trained in how to deal with it. Professional help would have provided that training if it had been sought in the proper order. That was my mistake.

 

For those spouses in a sexless M (mine wasn't sexless but rather emotionless and I recognize that's more rare), where one spouse unilaterally chooses to end sexual intimacy (this is gender-blind, since it can happen to either men or women), did the M change at that point and who owns responsibility for that change? I can anticipate some of the answers so remember the gender-blind part. That can bite ya.

 

If a similar unilateral and disclosed choice was made by the affected spouse to seek remuneration of the damages from this choice outside the M, they own that choice, correct? Who gets to assign which choice controls regarding 'good' or 'bad'? Interesting how that works. He says, she says, then truth. This is why I like having a professional involved, to get at the truth; the clarity. Any deception is an additional responsibility of the person deceiving and another issue to gain clarity about.

 

If nothing else, LS has affirmed what I've seen in real life, that there are no generalizations about affairs. Infinite variables, infinite potential outcomes, infinite potential impacts. What's 'right' for one couple is 'wrong' for another and everything in between.

[beenburned]

Seren,

As a long ago BW, my biggest resentment was my H taking away my choices about my own life.

 

During the years that he was cheating, I had SEVERAL

life altering choices to make about the direction my life was heading in the future. When dicussing options with him he always wanted things HIS way.

 

If I had known the whole TRUTH about the state of my marriage and H, I would have made entirely different choices!!

 

I would have put MY personal and financial well being first, in order to protect myself from someone that clearly did NOT have MY best interests at heart!

 

He had NO RIGHT to play GOD with my life for his selfish purposes!

[Breezy Trousers]

I think the question itself assumes external circumstances lead to cheating, but the circumstances in the marriage apply to both partners. The WS is in the same marriage as the BS, yet only the WS cheats.

 

Affairs don't always happen because the relationship 'was hurting so bad'. They often happen because the WS is "messed up". Something within that person was not "ok" - otherwise, they would be able to see and act with logic and clarity and common sense.

 

I think it's not as much about the relationship as it is about the person that's cheating. So it's not about what external circumstances would make it ok to cheat, it's about what within a WS makes it ok for him/her to cheat? What does the affair give that person that they want so badly that they'd hurt their spouse to get it? I think affairs make cheaters feel better about themselves, in some way that is really important to their selves.

 

Ask your friends if someone offered them something they deep-down needed most, something that made them feel "better" about themselves, would they cheat?

 

I agree with this. I always worried my husband's past infidelity was a reflection of me and our marriage, but he always insisted it wasn't. I didn't see that he was telling the truth until years later, as I grappled with an inappropriate attraction myself.

 

Until I dealt with love fog myself, I had no idea how powerful that "pull" can be! And I'm probably the last person people would ever suspect as being tempted with an affair. (Fercryinoutloud, I have three Methodist ministers and four multi-faith seminarians as Facebook friends!) Yet many factors fed into that attraction. Looking back, it became a perfect storm of circumstance for me: 1) the man I was attracted to raised powerful childhood issues for me (though unconscious at the time); 2) I felt flattered by a powerful man's attention at a time in my life where I felt unsure of myself; 3) I felt the man was possibly in a tailspin of his own (grief) which may have triggered his behavior toward me and that, in turn, triggered codependency "rescue" stuff for me; 4) I felt it was a "last chance" of sorts -- that I was falling down the chute of middle age, so to speak, and, having had a mere two sex partners my entire life, would probably never be presented with such a thrilling opportunity again; and 5) at the exact time I was presented with this problem, a longtime friend began her own workplace affair and was wildly encouraging me to cross the line --- "you only live once! no one will know!" sort of thing.

 

Notice that none of these "reasons" have anything to do with my husband or my marriage, both of which I was completely happy with. Even though my husband has cheated on me many years ago, I never saw my inappropriate attraction as being related to my husband's past infidelity. I still don't. My attraction was really part addictive process (love fog), part lack of awareness, and 100 percent self centeredness. I was no different than most married men on LS -- I just wanted some hot sex and excitement on the side. I hoped to keep it compartmentalized from my "real" life -- just a secret little vaca from my real life. I was insane.

 

In the end, the affair never happened. I'm still rattled, though. I can no longer sit comfortably among the population that sits up straight, wagging its finger, insisting it would never cheat. I can no longer trust my love for my husband will always protect me from myself. So I keep coming back to LoveShack to get little innoculations of awareness.

 

I believe affairs are wrong because gaslighting another human being is cruel and never justifiable. I agree that we should never seek our own happiness at the expense of someone else's happiness. Well said! Problem is, junkies aren't usually thinking such noble thoughts when they are chasing their fix, and all affair partners are junkies in the end. Like any junkie, a WS will lie, lie, lie. The ones they lie to most are themselves.

[reboot]

He wasn't a great spouse and neither was I. But no matter what I felt he deserved, my fidelity wasn't just about being faithful to him, but also faithful to myself.

 

The quiet truth that so many people simply don't seem to understand. Thank you bent.

 

 

"This above all: to thine own self be true" - Hamlet

[silktricks]

I don't believe very much in "the end justifies the means" as it seems that usually there are other means to the end other than the one that seems wrong. If it seems wrong, it probably is wrong. Searching for other "means" is IMO part of being an adult. (BTW, I don't believe that killing someone in defense of yourself or a loved one is murder, I believe it is necessary. But, I know that some faiths teach differently.)

 

I don't think choosing to have an affair is a good thing, nor do I believe that my own happiness/lust is a good and valid excuse for exercising the deception that is a requisite of affairs. The lying and cheating that is part and parcel of an affair would damage my psyche and worldview - it would not be a choice I would make.

 

I do, though, understand that it is a choice, and for some, like Mr_Confused, it is a choice he made from (for him) untenable choices. He isn't innocent in his choices, and neither is his wife. It isn't a choice I would make, personally. I would choose divorce over cheating.

 

I don't think the BS is usually the "cause" of an affair. Is the marriage in good repair? No, it's not. But it takes two people to make a strong marriage. One person cannot do it alone. If the soon to be WS refuses to discuss problems or work on issues, the BS cannot alone resolve the problems (and, of course the same is true if the WS is attempting to resolve issues and the BS refuses.) In some cases (such as that of Mr_Confused) I (personally) would place the lion's share of the sorry state of the marriage pre-affair on the BS. In other cases - well, not so much . And in some cases, the BS probably should get a guilt "pass" because some WS will cheat regardless.

 

Anyway, to go back to the OP, I don't think the end justifies the means. I don't think choosing to have an affair as opposed to either fixing the marriage or leaving the marriage is a good choice. I feel it will have unintended consequences for the BS, the WS and the OP. I feel it is damaging to all and better choices can be made. I understand the possible negative consequences that can accompany divorce, but most of those can be worked out if enough care is taken.

 

JMO,

Silk

[findingnemo]

Being from a different culture and being a grey thinker, I have to ask everybody a few questions.

 

1. I sense a general assumption that M couples are assumed to be in love. That they married for love and stay in love all through. Is this the case?

 

2. That once M, the most important part of that M is the love between H and W. Here many can argue that the most important thing are the kids and thus I guess justify staying M for those kids.

 

3. That regardless of what a spouse does or doesn't do for or to their partner, once the other spouse cheats, the cheating becomes the greater sin.

 

In my world, love sometimes fades and the family becomes the central focus. One of the spouses shuts off communication, intimacy and does the minimal things to keep the home life working. If it's the man, he may have an A or just have mechanical sex. You know what I mean - meaningless sex. Usually the woman will refuse to have sex because she is frankly not into her H like that anymore but will perform all other duties.

 

In light of my questions above, if one spouse wants to maintain the family unit that works regardless of the lack of love and intimacy with his/her partner can that be a good reason to have an A? Is it inconceivable in the U.S. or Europe that there are some things more important than intimacy between spouses that would make one of them want to maintain the M but choose to cheat for sexual release?

 

ETA: This is a genuine question. Either people on different continents are dissimilar or somehow there are a lot of similar thinking people on LS.

Edited December 15, 2011 by findingnemo

[Steen719]

findingnemo,

I must think simplistically. I know I am not naive. I am too old and have been through too much to be naive. I do not think cheating can be justified. I do believe that you should tell your partner that you are unhappy and you either need to fix the problems (sex or whatever it is) or you should divorce if your collective idea of marriage is not to involve a third party. My XH asked me when I found out "What did you want me to do? Tell you that I had someone else?" Well, yes, I deserved honesty. I did not deserve lying and manipulation and subterfuge. I would have been mad, that is for sure, but I would have respected him for his honesty and his ability to rise above his self-interests long enough to honor the wife who cared for him though his worst times.

 

I also think a family can survive without the things you mention, but I do not see there being the warmth, trust, companionship and love that a family should have and children can grow from. Love, to me, isn't a constant. It changes from day to day, from year to year, waxing and waning, but I don't think it can survive the hard times without honesty.

 

I may not have many who agree with me but I want to know that the person who is behind me has my back and not with a knife aimed at it. If you can't give me honesty, then what do you have to offer?

[Breezy Trousers]

Being from a different culture and being a grey thinker, I have to ask everybody a few questions.

 

1. I sense a general assumption that M couples are assumed to be in love. That they married for love and stay in love all through. Is this the case?

 

2. That once M, the most important part of that M is the love between H and W. Here many can argue that the most important thing are the kids and thus I guess justify staying M for those kids.

 

3. That regardless of what a spouse does or doesn't do for or to their partner, once the other spouse cheats, the cheating becomes the greater sin.

 

In my world, love sometimes fades and the family becomes the central focus. One of the spouses shuts off communication, intimacy and does the minimal things to keep the home life working. If it's the man, he may have an A or just have mechanical sex. You know what I mean - meaningless sex. Usually the woman will refuse to have sex because she is frankly not into her H like that anymore but will perform all other duties.

 

In light of my questions above, if one spouse wants to maintain the family unit that works regardless of the lack of love and intimacy with his/her partner can that be a good reason to have an A? Is it inconceivable in the U.S. or Europe that there are some things more important than intimacy between spouses that would make one of them want to maintain the M but choose to cheat for sexual release?

 

ETA: This is a genuine question. Either people on different continents are dissimilar or somehow there are a lot of similar thinking people on LS.

 

 

I agree there are different forms of infidelity, not just sexual. However, if the marriage is truly the problem, why not divorce? Many couples with children divorce without resorting to affairs.

 

If the parties truly want to stay together "for the kids' sake" (which I find suspect), why not open the marriage and allow your partner to have a discreet affair partner, too? Where's the problem? If there truly is no love left in the marriage, negotiated monogamy can't be a problem. There's no jealousy where there's no love/attachment.

 

Truth is, most WS would be offended if their spouse was also secretly having an affair.

 

I agree with spiritual teacher Byron Katie: If you want to see what people truly want for their lives, just look at their lives. Reality never lies. Human beings lie.

 

Affairs are notoriously rich in open-ended woulda-coulda-shoulda narratives: He would have left her for me if it wasn't for her and the kids! ... She really loved me but is confused about where she really wants to be .... In open, healthy relationships the risk of rejection is always present and clear. In secret, underground relationships, things are less clear, leaving the door wide open to endless, self-serving "grey" conjecture.

[Mr_Confused]

I agree there are different forms of infidelity, not just sexual. However, if the marriage is truly the problem, why not divorce? Many couples with children divorce without resorting to affairs.

 

 

 

I will tell you in my case, I am bitter, I am the angry one, and I am the WS. I am not apologetic for my actions, but I did apologize that she was hurt.

 

Why not divorce? Well because I worry about my child, but I do understand many/most get through it ok. But I also have to say I want to be a full time dad. MY wife shut down on me, so her unilateral decision leaves me with the choice of being honorable and giving up half of my assets and then seeing my child about 6 days a month. Screw that. I am sorry....but NO! Yes I am a cheater, I betrayed my wife, I compromised my morals - that doesn't sit well with me, I don't take that lightly. I'm not cavalier about it. I made a commitment to my wife, but I have an obligation to my daughter and a RIGHT as a parent - to be a parent. For me, I went outside my marriage only for what I begged for from my wife - for years. I think in the face of my remaining options - I chose the least impactful one to all involved.

 

Now, my daughter has grown into a fine young teenager, a wonderful girl, and I love her dearly. I recognize she is maturing and at an age she is better positioned to understand a divorce and is less reliant on us as parents. We are in a better financial situation as well. In short, I need to leave soon.

 

In the end though, I don't regret my actions. And, strangely enough, despite whatever hurt my affair has caused, I can essentially guarantee my wife would agree. Certainly she doesn't "like" my affair, but if she had to be a single parent and strained financially in order for me to be "honorable" - she pick the former. I'm sure her first choice was for me to remain faithful, celibate, and content in a loveless marriage, but she was well aware I was at the end of my rope.

 

It is easy to say - cheating is wrong - and really it is. But you have to measure it against the alternatives. Is living without sex and love while married wrong - yes. Is leaving your family and leaving them financially underwater alone when you can survive together wrong - yes.

 

Life isn't fair. I didn't walk to my alter expecting what I have been through, I am sure she didn't either. There are times in life where there is no right answer - only a list of bad options and you have to chose the least bad of the lot.

 

Judge me as you will. I expect as much. It's an expected consequence of my "least bad option" choice. It bothers me a lot less than a sexless/loveless marriage, a lot less than being broke, a lot less than forcing my child switch schools/drop hobbies/lower her lifestyle.

[seren]

Steen 719, I agree with all that you say and yes, to be told gives the BS informed choice, which to me, is what is the underlying obstacle many of us BS come up against on D Day. The right to make decisions about our lives based on truth.

 

Mr Confused, from what you are saying, I take it your wife knows you are having an affair, in which case she has informed choice and has decided to stay with you despite the affair. I see this more as an open marriage where you are both in agreement that the other can see someone else while maintaining the family home for your daughter. It wouldn't work for me, but is a better option than infidelity, IMO.

 

The lack of sex/intimacy was discussed in our group and we all agreed that intimacy, more than sex, was important in a marriage, if one was not able to share that, then it was seen that it needed to be discussed, try to work it out and if not, to either agree on an open relationship or leave. While an affair in these instances was possibly understandable, the consensus was that the one withholding intimacy needed to be advised that this was seen as a need by the other and that if it couldn't be worked out that honesty about seeking that elsewhere was still preferable to infidelity. The living a lie was the reason many of us had this view, the believeing something was one way, told it was, lied to to maintain status quo for the benefit of the other, and contribute to the marriage relationship. It was still thought that leaving was the way most of us would go.

 

The discussion, as I have said, was a group of friends and a few bottles of wine. What I found very interesting was that the gay couple amongst us could separate sex, intimacy and love, and while they could accept that one or the other might have a one night stand, if intimacy entered into it, the relationship would be over, this contrasted with a friend who is a lesbian who said that she wouldn't and couldn't accept that. It got me thinking if it might be different for men than women. The women all wanted intimacy and could forgo sex, the men not so, except if there was illness that prevented it.

 

However, the underlying need was for honesty, which went right back to the beginning and our discussion of informed choice.

[Breezy Trousers]

Mr Confused, from what you are saying, I take it your wife knows you are having an affair, in which case she has informed choice and has decided to stay with you despite the affair. I see this more as an open marriage where you are both in agreement that the other can see someone else while maintaining the family home for your daughter. It wouldn't work for me, but is a better option than infidelity, IMO.

 

The discussion, as I have said, was a group of friends and a few bottles of wine. What I found very interesting was that the gay couple amongst us could separate sex, intimacy and love, and while they could accept that one or the other might have a one night stand, if intimacy entered into it, the relationship would be over, this contrasted with a friend who is a lesbian who said that she wouldn't and couldn't accept that. It got me thinking if it might be different for men than women. The women all wanted intimacy and could forgo sex, the men not so, except if there was illness that prevented it.

 

 

Seren, there was a D-Day, but I'm not sure Mr. Confused's wife knows the true extent of his affair nor that it is continuing? I thought she was told it was a PA, not an EA -- but I could be wrong. (Mr. Confused?) If she is fully informed, then I agree with you -- it's an open marriage.

 

Excellent point about gay men, too! Yes, gay men are often able to separate sex, intimacy and love. I know of two gay men who have had an open marriage for years, and it's been smooth sailing. That's not uncommon in the gay community .... You share your life with one partner but have dalliances on the side ... I bet straight men could do that, too, but, hey, they have to deal with women..... It's less likely with lesbians or straight women. Evolution at play, probably .... Also, MM can compartmentalize affairs much more easily than OW and BS. That's clear from reading numerous threads on LS.

 

And Lady Grey -- :laugh:.... While I try to understand Confused's situation, I CERTAINLY understand your frustration! How many times do affair partners insist they are going to do XY&Z by such-and-such a date, and then ........ (sound of crickets) ....... I think Mr. Confused says he's waiting 'til after the holidays .... I've seen so many false starts over at the OW/OM forum --- right down to a MM living with his OW for a full year (!), only to dump her to return to wife -- that I won't believe anything until the ink is dry on the divorce papers. No offense intended toward Confused, either ...

[Steen719]

I read everything I could get my hands on about kid's ages and divorce and you are correct, Breezy. The literature supports the idea that kids whose parents divorce when they the kids are younger seem to have less problems with the divorce than older kids. I was so upset by that, but decided I had to go through he divorce. Supported by the Psychologist that I was seeing and the fact that my son had some knowledge about what was going on, anyway, I decided to go forward with the divorce. My son had just turned 21 when we divorced. I stayed with his dad through his first affair when he was 7, but not this time, no thank you. Son does not want me to go back with his dad, is unhappy with his father's sense of entitlement and his dishonesty. But, he did say that he appreciated me staying with his father when he was young as he thought it was better for him that we stayed together. So, who knows?

 

I will say this. I don't think we know what another person's marriage is really like as it is hard enough to determine what our own is like..ha. But, I do think there are some values human beings share and what has value for me might not matter so much to another person. I really value honesty and in my eyes, for me, when I knew my XH, a person I had cared for, stayed with through his near death illness and all the crap that has gone along with this, was looking me right in the eyes and lying to me, the writing was on the wall for me, no matter how much I struggled with the outcome. That might not get to other people like it did me, but it was enough to make me know just what kind of person I was dealing with. Selfish, self-centered and feeling entitled. I can do without that kind of man. Let the next woman deal with it.

 

OK, off the soapbox and off to bed.

[findingnemo]

findingnemo,

I must think simplistically. I know I am not naive. I am too old and have been through too much to be naive. I do not think cheating can be justified. I do believe that you should tell your partner that you are unhappy and you either need to fix the problems (sex or whatever it is) or you should divorce if your collective idea of marriage is not to involve a third party. My XH asked me when I found out "What did you want me to do? Tell you that I had someone else?" Well, yes, I deserved honesty. I did not deserve lying and manipulation and subterfuge. I would have been mad, that is for sure, but I would have respected him for his honesty and his ability to rise above his self-interests long enough to honor the wife who cared for him though his worst times.

 

I also think a family can survive without the things you mention, but I do not see there being the warmth, trust, companionship and love that a family should have and children can grow from. Love, to me, isn't a constant. It changes from day to day, from year to year, waxing and waning, but I don't think it can survive the hard times without honesty.

 

I may not have many who agree with me but I want to know that the person who is behind me has my back and not with a knife aimed at it. If you can't give me honesty, then what do you have to offer?

 

Steen, I agree with you when it comes to my own personal life. A M should be based on love and I wouldn't want to live with someone I don't love anymore or who doesn't love me. As you correctly put it, a M partner should have your back. You shouldn't be worried about where his/her allegiance is.

 

But since many here seem not to believe that love is a foundation stone for the family (at least sexual love), it makes me wonder if there aren't other people who think the same way in the West. As we all agree, these decisions are made by individuals with their own unique situations in their Ms. Isn't it therefore plausible that having an A for them is based on good reasons?

[seren]

F Neemo, it isn't so much about justifying an A, more that the A impacts upon another, has far reaching consequences for the BS, undoubtedly most BS have their happiness, wellbeing and world view changed irrevocably because of their Ws decision to have an A. The point is more about whether a person is justified in seeking their own happiness at the expense of another. The other person is lied to, led to believe all is good in their world and when gaslighting takes place, at times questions their sanity. Does it make it OK to do this to another in the pursuit of self gratification? I wonder how many WS think to themselves, if I do this, then I will see my BS and or OW/OM all but lose their mind, break their hearts, hurt my children etc if they could have a window into post D Day scenes, would they still go ahead?

 

Irrespective of the reasons for the A, the WS is still making decisions that will have a direct impact upon the life of their BS, usually a negative impact. It is that I find hard to take, no matter what the reasons for the A are. The marriage, if seen as a separate entity from the relationship between the married couple, has a whole set of dynamics that rely as much on one as the other. If the relationship is damaged, the marriage is too, and that includes family, children, friends etc etc. The WS doesn't live in a bubble whereby their actions do not have far reaching consequences. Rather like ripples in a pond when a stone is thrown. Or great big rocks.

 

I think compartmentalising enables the, what they don't know won't hurt them, or I am entitled to happiness, or if I tell my life will be toast almost rationalises actions. But, the underlying question for me at least is, how can someone do something they know will have such repercussions and think it OK, especially when there is a solution. For me, if someone is so dammed unhappy that hurting someone they have been with for so long and shared so much with, becomes acceptable it surely should merit at least a pause and if the answer is, yes, my happiness matters so much, then it is time to leave.

 

It is not so much good enough reasons for an A, but good enough reasons to do something that will undoubtedly hurt another. How does someone think they have the right to do this.

[findingnemo]

F Neemo, it isn't so much about justifying an A, more that the A impacts upon another, has far reaching consequences for the BS, undoubtedly most BS have their happiness, wellbeing and world view changed irrevocably because of their Ws decision to have an A. The point is more about whether a person is justified in seeking their own happiness at the expense of another. The other person is lied to, led to believe all is good in their world and when gaslighting takes place, at times questions their sanity. Does it make it OK to do this to another in the pursuit of self gratification? I wonder how many WS think to themselves, if I do this, then I will see my BS and or OW/OM all but lose their mind, break their hearts, hurt my children etc if they could have a window into post D Day scenes, would they still go ahead?

 

Irrespective of the reasons for the A, the WS is still making decisions that will have a direct impact upon the life of their BS, usually a negative impact. It is that I find hard to take, no matter what the reasons for the A are. The marriage, if seen as a separate entity from the relationship between the married couple, has a whole set of dynamics that rely as much on one as the other. If the relationship is damaged, the marriage is too, and that includes family, children, friends etc etc. The WS doesn't live in a bubble whereby their actions do not have far reaching consequences. Rather like ripples in a pond when a stone is thrown. Or great big rocks.

 

I think compartmentalising enables the, what they don't know won't hurt them, or I am entitled to happiness, or if I tell my life will be toast almost rationalises actions. But, the underlying question for me at least is, how can someone do something they know will have such repercussions and think it OK, especially when there is a solution. For me, if someone is so dammed unhappy that hurting someone they have been with for so long and shared so much with, becomes acceptable it surely should merit at least a pause and if the answer is, yes, my happiness matters so much, then it is time to leave.

 

It is not so much good enough reasons for an A, but good enough reasons to do something that will undoubtedly hurt another. How does someone think they have the right to do this.

 

There'll never be good enough reasons to hurt somebody when it comes to an A. It seems so clear to all of us. But when a H wakes up one morning and says he doesn't love you anymore, won't try to change things and wants a D, it is almost the same thing in terms of hurt, IMO. I guess my point is that spouses have so many different ways of hurting their partners and in my culture having an A is seen as much less hurtful than seemingly waking up and demanding a D.

 

In the eyes of the BS who is clueless as to his/her spouses unhappiness, is an A worse than being forced into having a D ie. Being rejected outright? Some will say yes an A is worse because of the gas lighting, etc. Some will prefer that the M continues and the WS does whatever it is they need to do make them "comfortable". In both scenarios, the BS knows about the extra-marital activities. Does knowing make it hurt any less? Does going forward with the D that your spouse insists on hurt any less because he/she did it openly and without an A?

 

Maybe I'm not expressing my view clearly enough. Wanting to keep a family together, while understanding that your spouse has refused to work on pertinent matters in the M, could be a good reason to have an A. The resulting pain of discovery may in someone's mind be less than the outright break up of the family when the other spouse believes all is well. Don't get me wrong. I'm of the view that the BS should be given a choice between going and staying. What I'm saying is that whether the reasons are good or bad, is subjective. What is good for one person, may not be good for me. I know a lot of women who turn a blind eye to their H's OWs. It is simply never discussed. I know about it but I can't tell them because it appears to me that they would prefer not to have evidence and have to deal with making certain decisions. Most MMs given time will exhibit signs of having an A. How do we explain women who stay after multiple As? Even the BS could consider staying knowing how disruptive a D would be. Why then wouldn't a WS use the same as a good reason to cheat? It really comes down to what one feels is important to them.

[Mr_Confused]

From what you've posted, you wouldn't be broke, you just don't want to part with part of your assets and good grief, you need to stop whining about your wife, just leave already. Find your gonads and get out or do you have any?

 

Broke - no. I was simply underwater on two properties and to deal with that I would have liquidated assets at half the value they are today - three years removed from the "financial crisis". I made some pretty smart moves in my opinion during that time. So things went from "work forever" to "it's looking pretty damn good" in 36-40 months. You seem hung up on $ so suspect you've been impacted by it to have such a strong opinion of men and their focus on wealth. I don't shy away from it, that's why I mentioned it. You don't know my background, and you opinion isn't particularly important to me, but in response to you personal character defamation -yes -when I work my entire adult life to obtain something - it is important and I intend to safeguard it - in this case my financial footing.

 

As an FYI my sister and I are two years separated. I was a year older than my daughter, her a year younger when our parent divorced. It doesn't "mark" our lives and quite honestly my parents didn't handle it particularly well.

 

50% of marriages fail,~50% experience infidelity at some - we are all at risk and the seas of marriage are difficult to navigate - at best. My marriage failed long before my affair - we will will find our way to calmer waters. I welcome your ridicule, it's good practice for me - I understand how I am to be viewed by many - thanks.

 

I will leave and will do so when I want. No start, false start, failed attempts, etc - has happened, may again, don't know. My wife knows what is up and she can initiate an end when she wants. She doesn't want counseling, she doesn't want me, and she doesn't want a divorce - not much I an do about it....I'm just going to get on with living my life.

 

This thread is interesting. It's about theory - what would I do "if". Well had I been at the table I would have told you a lot of things in theory that didn't hold true in reality. The reality of divorce becomes quite simple at it's most basic element - people leave when the pain in staying exceeds the pain in leaving.

 

What I wont be in life is a victim of circumstances I can't control or influence. I wont harbor bad feelings for my marriage or my wife. I wont compromise a fulfilling life in order for other people's acceptance. Lost many years playing that game so I will navigate my way from trapped & unhappy to free w/ a chance for happiness how I see best since it is my life. You can tell me in theory what you would do, and perhaps you would handle and conduct yourself differently. Either way I wish you the best of luck. I think we all deserve a chance at happiness and to find love.

 

Thanks for taking the time to reply - I do appreciate it.

[Mr_Confused]

 

And Lady Grey -- :laugh:.... While I try to understand Confused's situation, I CERTAINLY understand your frustration! How many times do affair partners insist they are going to do XY&Z by such-and-such a date, and then ........ (sound of crickets) ....... I think Mr. Confused says he's waiting 'til after the holidays .... I've seen so many false starts over at the OW/OM forum --- right down to a MM living with his OW for a full year (!), only to dump her to return to wife -- that I won't believe anything until the ink is dry on the divorce papers. No offense intended toward Confused, either ...

 

No offense taken. This isn't about the OW. I honestly cannot predict what will happen with my OW....I recognize the odds certainly aren't good. I think we have a good chance but I am leaving my marriage because it is something I can't accept - not for happiness that is dependent solely on my OW. My affair is a band-aid - it's not something that makes me content. I deserve more, my wife deserves better, my OW deserves better. Hell, I may never find what I want, all I can do is create situation where it is possible.

[bentnotbroken]

Seren,

As a long ago BW, my biggest resentment was my H taking away my choices about my own life.

 

During the years that he was cheating, I had SEVERAL

life altering choices to make about the direction my life was heading in the future. When dicussing options with him he always wanted things HIS way.

 

If I had known the whole TRUTH about the state of my marriage and H, I would have made entirely different choices!!

 

I would have put MY personal and financial well being first, in order to protect myself from someone that clearly did NOT have MY best interests at heart!

 

He had NO RIGHT to play GOD with my life for his selfish purposes!

 

 

DITTTOOO!:bunny:

[Breezy Trousers]

No offense taken. This isn't about the OW. I honestly cannot predict what will happen with my OW....I recognize the odds certainly aren't good. I think we have a good chance but I am leaving my marriage because it is something I can't accept - not for happiness that is dependent solely on my OW. My affair is a band-aid - it's not something that makes me content. I deserve more, my wife deserves better, my OW deserves better. Hell, I may never find what I want, all I can do is create situation where it is possible.

 

I may not agree with how you're going about things, Confused -- and who cares? reality didn't ask for my vote anyway --- but I do understand your feelings.

[TinaniT]

So, is there any circumstance where you might have an A? is love, like or lust a 'good enough' reason for knowingly hurting another? Keep it clean people, this isn't an excuse for pop shots, I am not that subtle. x

 

There is no circumstance I would ever again be involved in an affair. They suck.

 

 

 

It felt "justified" in a sense when I was in one before. My ex-husband was abusive and threatened me. I didn't quite consider his family, enough - but I knew that she had began refusing intimacy many years prior, that she had an affair of her own, and that they were by and large living separately before I ever even met him. We were in love. It didn't last long enough for me to really second guess it... I was in counseling and we were engaged before the impact of what I had done truly hit me. I know better now, but justifications are in the moment. Because of this, however, I could never be harsh on somebody who feels they have a justification. I guess in my feeling there can be no excuse, but there are reasons or contributing factors that lead to making a choice.

 

That isn't to say that avoiding hurting period never has a better reason. If you aren't in love and might love another, you should leave before anything - though it might hurt your spouse and it might hurt your children. (In some cases, the leaving might bother certain spouses more) --- but it's a singular defined action, not choice after choice of causing hurt... which is really what an affair is...