Good enough reasons, or not. Discuss

[seren]

I and some friends were having drinks and the usual debates and such. One of the questions that came up was wether the end justifies the means. The conversation ranged from, Theft, while we all agreed that theft was a no, no, we also agreed that if our child or family were starving we would steal to feed them if there were no other option. Abortion, while most of us agreed that terminating a pregnancy was not something we would do, we might if the baby would be born with a painful condition, some if the child was born of rape and so it was agreed, by some, that in this instance, the end might justify the means. Murder, if someone was threatening our life, the life of a loved one or if we had to, to protect another. This was universal agreement that we would all try not to, but if it came down to it, we all felt we would be capable of doing so.

 

Then the one we all agreed on, yes, you've guessed it, Infidelity, would or could we have an affair knowing that our actions would hurt another or a family for our own pleasure, even if we loved the other. This was interesting as some of the people debating admitted to affairs, yet all agreed that with the benefit of hindsight, and when experiencing the pain and hurt of being on the receiving end, they wouldn't have had an affair, but told the other, that they had to leave the relationship before they would go out with them. Lots of back and fro on this, the end result was that no one could say that having self gratification, even for love, was an action they would take.

 

Given the amount of discussion about black, white, grey thinking, justification or whatever else it is labelled, it came down to no, knowingly hurting another for self gain was not a desirable action. The, you never know until, bit came up and was discussed to death and back, it still came down to no, there cannot be any good reason to have an affair and that self gratification or love was not a 'good enough' reason.

 

I found it all very interesting, especially given my experience as a BS, also the experiences of those who had, had an A, with hindsight of course. So, is there any circumstance where you might have an A? is love, like or lust a 'good enough' reason for knowingly hurting another? Keep it clean people, this isn't an excuse for pop shots, I am not that subtle. x

[SoMovinOn]

...the end result was that no one could say that having self gratification, even for love, was an action they would take...

 

...it came down to no, knowingly hurting another for self gain was not a desirable action...

 

So, is there any circumstance where you might have an A?

 

is love, like or lust a 'good enough' reason for knowingly hurting another?

 

No. I don't think love or lust is a good enough reason to willing choose to hurt an undeserving spouse.

 

I think in any of the situations you mentioned, there is almost always a better answer. Even stealing in order to feed your children... one typically has to go a long way, doing the wrongs things, not doing the right things, to get to that point. Yeah... things can happen suddenly in some cases, you can do all the right things and still end up in a bad situation, but, more often, people end up where they are through a series of choices, or inaction.

 

The same is true of A's. If the couple has a good M and they are happy together, I can't see why one of them would choose to have an A. I think, however, there is usually a long road between them that gets them to where one of them ends up in an A.

[frozensprouts]

No. I don't think love or lust is a good enough reason to willing choose to hurt an undeserving spouse.

 

so love or lust are not good enough reasons to cheat on an undeserving spouse. what makes them undeserving? what would make a spouse "deserve' to be cheated on? can a spouse ever "deserve" to be cheated on?

 

. If the couple has a good M and they are happy together, I can't see why one of them would choose to have an A. I think, however, there is usually a long road between them that gets them to where one of them ends up in an A.

 

please find response in bold

[Eeyore79]

Yes, the end does justify the means... if the end is altruistic. It's ok to kill if by doing so you're protecting your country. It's ok to steal if you're doing it to feed a starving child. A bad act can be justified if the ultimate aim is to achieve good.

 

Having an affair can never be an altruistic act. The motivation is ultimately self-centered and cowardly, and the aim is to fulfil your own selfish desires. There is no way to justify these actions; your own desires are not a good enough reason for purposely breaking your vows and hurting someone else.

[Mr_Confused]

Are all vows created equal?

 

Infidelity - forsaking all others - seems wrong under all circumstances....right?

 

What if you live in a marriage like mine? What if you haven't had sex in 5 years? What if you, other than saying it verbally, don't do anything to demonstrate loving or cherishing each other?

 

 

Is someone in my situation to remain loyal or leave? How can one be expected to "only have sex with their spouse" if you don't have sex with your spouse? Was I committing to never have sex again at the alter - gee - I don't think so..... Who betrayed who here?

 

I love simple questions - "is an affair ever justified?". Life, and matters involving people are rarely so easy to dissect.

 

There is a reason most states are "no fault" divorce states. Its clear that an affair means a marriage has failed, but if were always so cut and dry as to cause and effect - greater consequences would be placed upon the WS.

 

Some affairs destroy an otherwise acceptable marriage. In other cases, the marriage is over every way but legally and people are simply moving on - it's technically an "affair" only because by law they are married.

 

What is a marriage if it is absent of love, affection, intimacy, sex???? It's a friendship at best...

 

I prefer to focus on "betrayal" - the the term affair or infidelity. I am in the unusual position of feeling that while I am in an affair, I am not betraying my wife. I don't view myself is disloyal. I don't view myself as betraying her. We don't love, kiss, touch, cuddle, have sex and pretend to share these moments only between ourselves - we don't have those moments. Our marriage is one of convenience - convenient for our child, convenient financially, convenient in terms of avoiding difficult change and consequences of ending the marriage.

Edited December 11, 2011 by Mr_Confused

[Toodamnpragmatic]

I have to ask if you and your friends are religious? The answers to the abortion question indicate very deep faith. Thus the fact there have been affairs, just shows the lack of integrity of people in keeping their vows when brought up in a religious context.

 

And Mr_Confused, again I am drawn to most everything you write and the clarity in which you discuss your situation, but also how you feel you must justify your position and the circumstances. You had every right to have and to search out an affair (though I know you did not). Your wife has basically abused your marriage and taken advantage of the vows you made, held your daughter (and affect on her emotionally and psychologically if you divorced), and led a luxurious affluent life primarily on your dime and made no effort to make you happy on an intimacy level.

 

The more you write, the angrier I become thinking what your wife did to you and her indifferent reaction to your affair, which was a week away with girlfriends and a return only worried about the affect a divorce may have on her lifestyle and standard of living.....

[Eeyore79]

Infidelity - forsaking all others - seems wrong under all circumstances....right?

Yes, absolutely.

 

Is someone in my situation to remain loyal or leave?

Yes, one or the other - unless your partner has knowledge of your affair and specifically approves it. If not, then you're lying and deceiving your partner.

 

If your partner withholds sex, or their health prevents them from having sex, then your choices are to put up with it, to seek counselling to improve the situation, or to leave the relationship. Cheating and deceit is not an acceptable response to a lack of sex, because sex is not a basic human need - you won't die without it. Many single people live full lives while taking care of their own sexual needs. Many married people care for a sick spouse and remain loving and faithful. Many people would not put their own sexual needs ahead of their spouse's need for love and faithfulness, or ahead of their solemn vow to keep themselves only unto their chosen spouse. Putting my needs ahead of someone else's is always a selfish act.

 

I appreciate that there are some places in which it's appropriate to put your own needs first - but your marriage is not one of those places. In my personal opinion there is no justification for lies and deceit between spouses, and there is no justification for infidelity. Kissing, loving or having sex with someone else is disloyal to your spouse if those things are done without your spouse's knowledge and consent. If a relationship is bad, abusive, or simply cannot be saved, then the solution is to leave the relationship - not to engage in subterfuge and lies.

 

I'm aware that my opinions on this subject probably don't match with the majority of opinions on this board. However I strongly believe that a lot of marriages end due to pure selfishness on the part of one or both spouses, and that more marriages would survive if the people involved could move away from this self-centered mentality (which is unfortunately all too common nowadays) and appreciate that marriage is supposed to be an entirely selfless commitment to another person.

[OpenBook]

I strongly believe that a lot of marriages end due to pure selfishness on the part of one or both spouses, and that more marriages would survive if the people involved could move away from this self-centered mentality (which is unfortunately all too common nowadays) and appreciate that marriage is supposed to be an entirely selfless commitment to another person.

 

It's not "entirely selfless" though. People get married for selfish reasons in the first place. They take those vows because they are convinced that their own lives will be enhanced by this other person who currently brings them happiness - more so than if they lived their lives without them - so they want to "lock it down" by entering matrimony. It's not an altruistic endeavor. Not by a long shot.

[beenburned]

SMO,

There are plenty of people who love their spouses, and are happy in their marriage, that go on to cheat on them. Stats back this up.

 

In many cases it is because the WS has unhealthy coping abilities usually learned in their FOO, or are just immature and selfish. Even though two people are in the marriage, it only takes one to destroy it by their actions.

 

A lot of WS are conflict avoiders or either passive/agressive. Therefore the BS isn't even aware that their is a problem, or if they ask why the WS is acting strange, they are always told nothing is wrong.

 

Rather than speak up and deal with whats bothering them, the WS takes the easy way out by finding an OP that will always listen and AGREE with them. This is another reason some BS are totally blindsided when D-Day occurs.

 

Mr Confused,

If you have outright told your wife that you are having sex with others because she wouldn't put out, then you have been totally honest with her.

I don't understand why in the world you would want to stay married to someone that doesn't want to have sex with you!(especially for 5 years)

Why not just divorce?

[frozensprouts]

i find it very sad when the people who justify their affair put it all on their spouse...to them, they did nothing wrong and their spouse treated them terribly, and therefore deserved what they got.

 

confused, something i have asked you and you have never answered is the question of your responsibility in your marriage...what did YOU do that may have contributed to the problem? according to you, nothing. the only thing that you did that was "wrong" ( and you don't feel that it is wrong) was to have an affair....everything else in the state of your marriage is on your wife.

 

BTW... about the "no sex for five years"thing....does that include the two years that you have been in your affair, or did your affair only start after the "five years" ( in which case, you will not have had sex for seven years ( the five you say you went without before starting your two year long affair, years during which i would assume you had no sex), or you were having sex with your wife much more recently than you would like to let on....it's just that it wasn't enough, or wasn't of the quality you thought it should be, etc.

 

this illustrates what happens a lot of the time in affairs...the wayward spouse often changes what was going on in their marriage to make it seem as if their spouse somehow "deserved' it...the wayward spouse has done nothing wrong, it's all on their husband/wife

[Eeyore79]

It's not "entirely selfless" though. People get married for selfish reasons in the first place. They take those vows because they are convinced that their own lives will be enhanced by this other person who currently brings them happiness.

 

Yes, your choice of spouse is based on the fact that the person in question makes you happy. But the commitment of marriage is still a selfless one - mutually selfless, in that you commit to making each other happy. Obviously you're going to choose someone who reciprocates, who makes you as happy as you make them. But still, the commitment of marriage is supposed to be a commitment to the other person, not a commitment to retaining your own happiness. If your main aim in marriage is to have the other person make you happy, you aren't going to get very far. In marriage, your spouse's happiness is supposed to be more important to you than your own... of course this only works when both spouses prioritize each other!

[LoveTKO]

I have to ask if you and your friends are religious? The answers to the abortion question indicate very deep faith. Thus the fact there have been affairs, just shows the lack of integrity of people in keeping their vows when brought up in a religious context.

 

 

.....

 

I know that this thread is about affairs but....

Interesting and a common observation when discussing abortion; however, as a non-practicing Catholic, I don't really agree with the assertion that an anti-abortion stance automatically denotes a strong religious conviction. I view it as taking a life, and the act is predicated on a selfish act because having the baby might be "inconvenient". Everybody with a pro-choice stance did have the opportunity to have seen the light of day; you didn't have a voice whether or not you were aborted. I already have mine so screw you I guess.

 

When looking at the big picture, I can't understand how someone can pontificate about how affairs are unethical an immoral, but abortion...well, that's okay. "Be a hero save a whale....save a baby go to jail".

[Bittersweetie]

I read something on this board once that was like: "Everyone has the right to pursue happiness, but not at the expense of another's."

 

That's exactly what I did; I was unhappy, blamed it on my H, and looked for it elsewhere. In the process I destroyed my H, and I destroyed myself. Was it worth it?

 

No.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

I know that this thread is about affairs but....

Interesting and a common observation when discussing abortion; however, as a non-practicing Catholic, I don't really agree with the assertion that an anti-abortion stance automatically denotes a strong religious conviction. I view it as taking a life, and the act is predicated on a selfish act because having the baby might be "inconvenient". Everybody with a pro-choice stance did have the opportunity to have seen the light of day; you didn't have a voice whether or not you were aborted. I already have mine so screw you I guess.

 

When looking at the big picture, I can't understand how someone can pontificate about how affairs are unethical an immoral, but abortion...well, that's okay. "Be a hero save a whale....save a baby go to jail".

 

And I am pro-choice, but do certainly have an issue if it is used solely as an alternative to birth control. Sorry when someone only thinks abortion should be allowed in cases of incest, rape or a life/death cases I will conclude are prodominently (90%+) religious people.

 

And if these religious people also have cheated, I find it incredibly hypocritical and funny.

 

And yes I am threadjacking..... sorry

Edited December 11, 2011 by Toodamnpragmatic

[carhill]

all agreed that with the benefit of hindsight, and when experiencing the pain and hurt of being on the receiving end, they wouldn't have had an affair, but told the other, that they had to leave the relationship before they would go out with them.

 

With the benefit of hindsight, I would concur, respecting that such matters can be 'gray'.

 

In my case, the chronology would have altered to: clarify, communicate, seek help, make a decision on the M and execute it, then seek out other opportunities and support.

 

The error was, with clarity and communicating in the correct order, I sought out other opportunities and support prior to seeking help and making a decision and executing it. Seeking help, in and of itself, would have, again in my case only, provided tools to better manage the situation and perhaps avoided unhealthy dynamics besides the obvious unhealthiness of an affair. Further, professional help assisted in processing fear, which can be a potent motivator and impulsion to mistakes and bad choices.

 

Every M and every affair is different so YMMV. I've seen enough M's with A's in them to know that. I hope those people find what they're looking for. I know I did.

[bentnotbroken]

He wasn't a great spouse and neither was I. But no matter what I felt he deserved, my fidelity wasn't just about being faithful to him, but also faithful to myself.

[seren]

TDP, no most of my friends aren't religous, as in practicing catholics, protestant, muslim or whatever. I was brought up in a Quaker/Unitarian household and, as I have stated before, the underlying message was, do not harm others, be the best you can be, it is not my (general) place to judge others and that everyone is responsible for their own actions. So, taking all my learned behaviours into account I suppose it has to have an impact upon my views.

 

The questions we discussed were far ranging and hinged mainly upon how our individual actions impacted upon the life of another. Parallels were drawn regarding the justifications given for murder and those for abortion. The debate was often heated, we all agreed that on some things we would or could never agree and that while in some things, could possibly see or try to understand that you (general) had to be in that situation to truly know what your actions would be, the stance on Infidelity was universal. Which I found interesting and conflicting.

 

The question that everyone came back to was if the relationship was so bad that hurting another was the result, then why not leave that situation. The group was mixed, some had, had affairs, some were BS and some in non infidelity relationships. yet no one could come up with a solid argument (for want of a better word) why it was OK to hurt another for self gratification when there was another option. The no sex thing came up and while it was agreed that not having sex in a relationship was not healthy, the lack of intimacy was seen as worse. It was seen that if the person was that unhappy with the non sexual relationship, they should discuss this and state what their intentions were. Thus affording informed choice. the whole issue of informed choice was fundamental to the discussion and we couldn't get past that one person had the right to make decisions that would impact upon the happiness or wellbeing of the other for reasons of self happiness.

 

As someone who was a BS, I obviously had/have my own views and as someone who has reconciled I can honestly say that while I understand the reasons for H's affair, the sticking point for me is always that I was not afforded informed choice, after all, I was living with the same situation. The thing I remember saying was that H had no right to do that to me, to him, for him? maybe, but as those actions impacted upon my life, wellbeing and life view, he had no right to meddle with that. However, this wasn't about me or my situation, but simply about whether a person has the right to happiness at the expense of another.

[GG2W]

Mr. Confused, I have a close friend who is living a similar life. After the birth of their last child his wife had her tubes tied. Her attitude after that was sex was only for having children and now that her child bearing days were over she was finished with sex. Doctors, counselers, shrinks, there was no changing her mind and my friend went with out for years.

 

She is a SAHM, his income is enough to cover them and take care of the kids, but divorce is not affordable. He can't afford to provide and support two households, and she would probably get the kids.

 

So what are his options other than cheating.

 

One other thing, he is an avid out doors man, and owns several guns.

 

From what I have read a healthy sex life is good for ones over all health, which includes mental health.

 

So my question to those who are so against him cheating, and say that he should first get a divorce is - do you want to take a chance that after years of going with out that something might snap and we once again read of a mad man going on a shooting spree?

[Mr_Confused]

i find it very sad when the people who justify their affair put it all on their spouse...to them, they did nothing wrong and their spouse treated them terribly, and therefore deserved what they got.

 

confused, something i have asked you and you have never answered is the question of your responsibility in your marriage...what did YOU do that may have contributed to the problem? according to you, nothing. the only thing that you did that was "wrong" ( and you don't feel that it is wrong) was to have an affair....everything else in the state of your marriage is on your wife.

 

BTW... about the "no sex for five years"thing....does that include the two years that you have been in your affair, or did your affair only start after the "five years" ( in which case, you will not have had sex for seven years ( the five you say you went without before starting your two year long affair, years during which i would assume you had no sex), or you were having sex with your wife much more recently than you would like to let on....it's just that it wasn't enough, or wasn't of the quality you thought it should be, etc.

 

this illustrates what happens a lot of the time in affairs...the wayward spouse often changes what was going on in their marriage to make it seem as if their spouse somehow "deserved' it...the wayward spouse has done nothing wrong, it's all on their husband/wife

 

 

I'll answer n a new thread as to not thread jack

[carhill]

Regarding the unhealthiness of a sexless M, would not being sexless during the D be essentially the same, assuming a person remained celibate upon 'breaking up' or 'separating'? Most people I know, including the person who is now my exW, immediately move on to other intimate relationships once any 'official' breakup is announced or agreed upon, so a separation could quickly end such a sexless streak, should the spouse be so inclined to do so.

 

What does the spouse wanting and not receiving sex fear?

 

That was a simple question, though not on that topic, that I was asked in MC? What do I fear? The answers formed the basis of my work.

 

From reading some of the stories on LS about long term sexless marriage, it is apparent that some people can indeed by happy and content without sex or sexual intimacy. Everyone is different. Every M is different. Every meeting of two human minds is unique.

 

Is being in a sexless marriage good enough to justify or 'explain' an affair, whether open or deceptive? YMMV, definitely. LS opinion reflects those variations. Is there an absolute rule? I would imagine each of us has our own. Perhaps that's instructive.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

I'll answer n a new thread as to not thread jack

 

Why answer??? I've read all your posts and some people refuse to believe what you have wrote or your honesty. You have answered FS, but she seems to have aproblem with your answers.

 

Is it not enough to breakdown and cry begging intimacy and being rebuffed and ignored.

 

FS, you love to blame males and search for what males have done wrong in their relationships and marriages (including cheating), yet are the first to understand, find reasons and forgive your H's callous cheating. It is actually amusing that Mr_Confused who has been so honest and forthcoming has to continually answer to women upset that he would heat after all he has put up with. And frankly cheating is an unfair monicker in this case.

 

I am pretty sure she has said no to each and everyone of his attempts to talk to professionals or address the situation. She is very happy to live a rarified, affluent lifestyle (as many women are) without intimacy.

Edited December 11, 2011 by Toodamnpragmatic

[Mr_Confused]

Regarding the unhealthiness of a sexless M, would not being sexless during the D be essentially the same, assuming a person remained celibate upon 'breaking up' or 'separating'? Most people I know, including the person who is now my exW, immediately move on to other intimate relationships once any 'official' breakup is announced or agreed upon, so a separation could quickly end such a sexless streak, should the spouse be so inclined to do so.

 

What does the spouse wanting and not receiving sex fear?

 

That was a simple question, though not on that topic, that I was asked in MC? What do I fear? The answers formed the basis of my work.

 

From reading some of the stories on LS about long term sexless marriage, it is apparent that some people can indeed by happy and content without sex or sexual intimacy. Everyone is different. Every M is different. Every meeting of two human minds is unique.

 

Is being in a sexless marriage good enough to justify or 'explain' an affair, whether open or deceptive? YMMV, definitely. LS opinion reflects those variations. Is there an absolute rule? I would imagine each of us has our own. Perhaps that's instructive.

 

I offered my opinion in detail on a separate thread since I went a bit off topic.

 

Being unfortunately well versed in a sexless marriage - I can just say it sucks.

 

I am not the typical "I wasn't looking for an affair" story.

 

I weighed my options. Leave, stay, affair. I can tell you I was beyond the end of my rope in staying and accepting it. "Fixing it" was not happening. I told my wife, I was over it 100% and refused to live my life any longer without human contact - it went on so long I lost any and all interest in her.

 

For me it was leave or affair. Each action had a consequence - and I chose affair. that affair has since been discovered and based on the result - I made the right decision. My wife seemingly recovered in a few days and was off for a vacation. She has unquestionably disappointed, on some level hurt, but not devastated like I read on forums like this one. She now also has the benefit of blaming me for everything - that's a nice luxury. I can assure you had I been honorable and left - she would be near broke, still blame me for leaving for sex, and view that alternative as considerably worse.

 

I have no idea how it all fell apart over the years. I can also say that the idealist views on fix it OR leave - while they look good on paper - don't apply to everyone. I would much rather have had everything work out, I would prefer to be in love and happily intimate with the woman I married, it would be a hell of a lot easier, I could retire a decade (or more) sooner, it would easier for my child. I just lost all hope......some things can't be undone....and my affair can now be added to that list.

[SoMovinOn]

so love or lust are not good enough reasons to cheat on an undeserving spouse. what makes them undeserving? what would make a spouse "deserve' to be cheated on? can a spouse ever "deserve" to be cheated on?

 

Marriage is a contract to which both parties are bound. If one breaks that contract, it's null & void. The question at that point then becomes, why do they stay together? The answers to that are as varied as the people involved, although often it comes down to finances or other practical matters.

[SoMovinOn]

There are plenty of people who love their spouses, and are happy in their marriage, that go on to cheat on them. Stats back this up.

 

I don't doubt that. I just don't understand it.

... or, they don't actually love their spouse, and/or they are not actually happy...despite their claims otherwise.

 

In my mind, you cannot truly love someone and willfully hurt them.

[carhill]

The happily wandering penises and vaginas IMO have the psychology to compartmentalize the happiness of their M from the happiness of their A. They are two different boxes which never touch or interact with each other in any way. The lies used to keep those boxes from touching are the eternal tunnel between the relevant universes from which there is no escape and the person accepts that reality. Special relativity.