Art_Critic Posted December 12, 2011 Posted December 12, 2011 She emphasized that she loves me and doesn't want to lose me, but it's not really up for discussion as she is firm in her decision. This is the part that I would be concerned about... In marriage everything is up for discussion and while you are not married you certainly are working towards that goal.. I would hazard a guess and say that a marriage to her will be full of "it's not up for discussion" If I were you I certainly would be doing more thinking on if I wanted to end the relationship, just on the idea that you are not working as a couple with this issue and this issue is all about couplehood. She is telling you, not asking you that you will be living without sex in your relationship.. a relationship that is partly based on sex or physical intimacy and already in full bloom... Tough Call... I hope you can work this out..
Art_Critic Posted December 12, 2011 Posted December 12, 2011 I'm very familiar with The Roman as well as The Eastern Rights or Byzantine's and if she has been a member for a decade I'm wondering why this suddenly became an issue for her. I know she just 'confessed' it, but why her sudden adherence to this conviction? Or was it sudden, do you know? I have first hand experience in a situation similar to the OP's and in my situation I learned there was more to it than breaking her religious vows/views. In my situation I felt like she found herself down a path that she wasn't comfortable with and ultimately she figured out we weren't compatible but hid behind the premarital sex issue in order to force a breakup of my choosing. Not saying that is what is happening in the OP's case.. just what happened in mine...
KathyM Posted December 12, 2011 Posted December 12, 2011 @LittleTiger and FitChick - I don't want to end the relationship, don't want to go out with anyone else, and don't want her to either. However, I also believe that a happy romantic relationship must be fulfilling on many levels and the physical part is integral and essential. I believe that even if I tried to accept this that our previously beautiful relationship would erode because the frustration would tend to be cumulative. It's one thing to do that nine hour drive knowing that a night of passion awaits, it's quite another to do it knowing that I'll be staying with the object of my desire and that she'll be expecting me to be affectionate and tender while at the same time keeping me at arm's length. It will be inappropriate to express my frustration, withhold affection, or try and tempt her to cross the line. The only way it can work long-term is if I share her religious perspective and commitment to chastity, which I obviously do not. The only hope for the relationship as I see it is for her to realize it can't work and that she values me and the relationship too much to allow it to deteriorate this way, or for her to simply not be able to maintain compliance herself. I see both of these as being potential outcomes, so my plan is encourage her to come here at the end of next week, as previously planned, and see what transpires. I could be wrong, but based on how she has responded to me thus far, I can't imagine that she'd be able to hold out indefinitely. I understand that these will have to be her realizations. So the question becomes then, how do I help her come to this realization––by being understanding, tender, affectionate and affirming, or by withdrawing, or some combination of the two. I talked to a trusted female friend about this and she tends to believe that my gf needs to affirm that my affections are genuinely for her as a person as opposed to the sex making me feel great about myself. I can understand that. This implies that the religious rationale is not actually the root of the motivation, although she may not be conscious of it. From a broader perspective, just the fact that we are suddenly dealing with this such a deal-breaking issue after having zero conflict or disagreements for three months is not a good sign. Seriously, not even one small disagreement in three months. Then out of the blue the relationship is on the line and it seems irreconcilable. Don't try to convince her to abandon her faith and her commitment to God. She would just feel guilty either way, whether she abandons her commitment in order to give you want you want, or you try to stay with her and she denies you what you feel you must have. Either scenario is not fair to her. She would be in a no win situation, and would feel guilty either way. She sounds like a high quality woman who is well worth pursuing if you would have the strength and restraint to abstain. You said you would be interested in pursuing a stronger faith. Then you need to respect her values and her commitment, and pursue that road yourself. If you can't do that, then don't continue with her thinking that you're going to change her mind. That would not be fair to her to make her choose between her faith and you. The only fair choice would be to leave her now, knowing that you aren't willing to do without a sexual relationship with her, or alternatively, you would decide she is worth pursuing, even if the sexual aspect would not be there until marriage. It is certainly possible to abstain and hold yourself to a higher standard of behavior. People do it all the time. My sister enjoyed a very satisfying sexual life with her former husband. After her divorce, she started dating others and has found a wonderful man with whom she is celebate because they both share a religious faith that honors commitment to God above all else. They are getting married in February, and are enjoying the spiritual and emotional connection they have with each other, and are holding off the sexual connection until marriage. It can be done, and is being done all the time by people who value their faith. If you care about this woman, and want to be with her, you will be seeking out the emotional connection and spiritual connection, and the sexual connection will not be the primary focus. If the sexual connection is too important for you to have right now, then do her a favor and break off the relationship. Don't make her choose between her faith and commitment to God vs. your sexual desires.
Art_Critic Posted December 12, 2011 Posted December 12, 2011 Don't try to convince her to abandon her faith and her commitment to God. She would just feel guilty either way, whether she abandons her commitment in order to give you want you want, or you try to stay with her and she denies you what you feel you must have. Either scenario is not fair to her. She would be in a no win situation, and would feel guilty either way. She sounds like a high quality woman who is well worth pursuing if you would have the strength and restraint to abstain. You said you would be interested in pursuing a stronger faith. Then you need to respect her values and her commitment, and pursue that road yourself. If you can't do that, then don't continue with her thinking that you're going to change her mind. That would not be fair to her to make her choose between her faith and you. The only fair choice would be to leave her now, knowing that you aren't willing to do without a sexual relationship with her, or alternatively, you would decide she is worth pursuing, even if the sexual aspect would not be there until marriage. It is certainly possible to abstain and hold yourself to a higher standard of behavior. People do it all the time. My sister enjoyed a very satisfying sexual life with her former husband. After her divorce, she started dating others and has found a wonderful man with whom she is celebate because they both share a religious faith that honors commitment to God above all else. They are getting married in February, and are enjoying the spiritual and emotional connection they have with each other, and are holding off the sexual connection until marriage. It can be done, and is being done all the time by people who value their faith. If you care about this woman, and want to be with her, you will be seeking out the emotional connection and spiritual connection, and the sexual connection will not be the primary focus. If the sexual connection is too important for you to have right now, then do her a favor and break off the relationship. Don't make her choose between her faith and commitment to God vs. your sexual desires. This is a really good post.. The only problem I have with it is that is doesn't address the values that she HAD when the relationship started. If they hadn't already been involved in a sexual relationship with each other then I would say your post sums it all up.. But they were having sex.. What are her values then ? The values she has now or the values she had a few weeks ago ? The faith she has now or the faith she had a few weeks ago ? I myself don't understand the left turn...
KathyM Posted December 12, 2011 Posted December 12, 2011 This is a really good post.. The only problem I have with it is that is doesn't address the values that she HAD when the relationship started. If they hadn't already been involved in a sexual relationship with each other then I would say your post sums it all up.. But they were having sex.. What are her values then ? The values she has now or the values she had a few weeks ago ? The faith she has now or the faith she had a few weeks ago ? I myself don't understand the left turn... The thing is, she undoubtedly had Christian values before she decided on celebacy, but she chose to put them aside and indulge. I doubt she all of a sudden, out of the blue, became devout, going from 0 to 100 on the spirituality scale. She was probably conflicted before this decision, and after talking to her pastor/priest, she realized the importance of staying true to her faith on this issue. I know a lot of Christians who had a similar reawakening of their resolve to honor God's will with regard to their sexual life, after previously indulging in it.
LittleTiger Posted December 12, 2011 Posted December 12, 2011 The thing is, she undoubtedly had Christian values before she decided on celebacy, but she chose to put them aside and indulge. I doubt she all of a sudden, out of the blue, became devout, going from 0 to 100 on the spirituality scale. She was probably conflicted before this decision, and after talking to her pastor/priest, she realized the importance of staying true to her faith on this issue. I know a lot of Christians who had a similar reawakening of their resolve to honor God's will with regard to their sexual life, after previously indulging in it. I agree Kathy. I think the OP has no choice but to either go along with the celibacy (and respect it) until marriage becomes a serious consideration, or bow out of the relationship, making it clear to her why he cannot continue - not as a way of coercing her to change her mind, but in order to set them both free. There is a major compatibility issue here. The only way it can be resolved is if one of them is prepared to back down on their needs or principles - of their own accord and without duress. Any manipulation on either side will just lead to two broken hearts. I don't see either of them being happy with any of the possible outcomes.
Art_Critic Posted December 12, 2011 Posted December 12, 2011 She was probably conflicted before this decision, I would guess this would have to be the case.. When it happened to me that was what I felt.. that she found herself down a road that she didn't want to be on and turned around... There is obviously nothing wrong with it.. anybody gets to choose who with and how much sex they want to have.. I just have a little reserve for the hypocrisy of the whole scene... I also felt like when it happened to me that she had already decided that I wasn't a fit.. so why go against my faith anymore.
Author salparadise Posted December 12, 2011 Author Posted December 12, 2011 I smell a whole lot of sexual tension in this topic. I wouldn't know if my own advice would even help or give important insights to Sal, so I am going to wait for Sal to ask me first before I post anything. LZ2000, I would appreciate hearing your insights. I'm very familiar with The Roman as well as The Eastern Rights or Byzantine's and if she has been a member for a decade I'm wondering why this suddenly became an issue for her. I know she just 'confessed' it, but why her sudden adherence to this conviction? Or was it sudden, do you know? Yes, it was sudden. It's not like the subject had never come up, but the decision was quite sudden. She had mentioned once before that a part of her wished that we had waited longer before becoming intimate, but then she followed by saying she realized we can't go back and change that now and not to worry. I had asked before if she was ok with our sexuality given her beliefs and she said she was. Then she has the confession and counseling session with the priest who is leaving and BOOM! So I can't help but think that he laid a heavy guilt trip on her. I have first hand experience in a situation similar to the OP's and in my situation I learned there was more to it than breaking her religious vows/views. In my situation I felt like she found herself down a path that she wasn't comfortable with and ultimately she figured out we weren't compatible but hid behind the premarital sex issue in order to force a breakup of my choosing. Not saying that is what is happening in the OP's case.. just what happened in mine... I have considered the possibility that she may have unrelated doubts about the relationship and that putting it under this kind of pressure will yield some kind of answers, confirm or alleviate her doubts. If so, I believe it would be a subconscious motive because what she says outwardly is that she values the relationship and doesn't want to lose me because of this. Don't try to convince her to abandon her faith and her commitment to God. She would just feel guilty either way, whether she abandons her commitment in order to give you want you want, or you try to stay with her and she denies you what you feel you must have. Your point is well stated and I am considering this perspective. The problem I'm having is that one day she's happy, thankful for our beautiful relationship, including the physical aspect, and the next day she's all conflicted and intends to excise it. Not coincidentally, this was the day she had her confession and counseling with the priest. So I am not convinced that this is what SHE really wants so much as a way to relieve feelings of dissonance caused by how the priest made her feel in that moment. This is why I am inclined to be patient. I think it's entirely possible that things could revert to normal without any pressure from me if I am caring and understanding. She is a wonderful woman and I don't want to throw it all away over this even though I'm not in agreement on this. If she proves to be as wonderful as I believe she is, then I should give it time to see whether the relationship flourishes or declines, or the physical aspect returns naturally.
LZ2000 Posted December 12, 2011 Posted December 12, 2011 At this point of the thread, I can fully see that the situation is so delicate and personally agonizing, it makes me cringe and twists my soul.
Art_Critic Posted December 12, 2011 Posted December 12, 2011 She is a wonderful woman and I don't want to throw it all away over this even though I'm not in agreement on this. If she proves to be as wonderful as I believe she is, then I should give it time to see whether the relationship flourishes or declines, or the physical aspect returns naturally. You're a good man Salparadise...
LZ2000 Posted December 13, 2011 Posted December 13, 2011 (edited) LZ2000, I would appreciate hearing your insights. Sal, I wouldn't deny your physically intimate needs in your situation and how important it is to you. I am sure that at this point, pretty much everyone has already offered you good advice on how to proceed and progress in your relationship from this point onwards. I do believe that this relationship with this lady that you have is the one you're looking for. If you do choose to keep this relationship with her, it will not be easy for you to deal with your own personal needs, therefore, one alternative that I may need to controversially suggest is that, you may need to resort to deliberate masturbation. I never underestimate how the body can influence the individual's mind and emotions, and as a man myself, I know that these factors play a very destabilizing role in the behaviors of men and women on occasion (or almost all the time, i suppose). I'm no sexologist, and my advice may or may not be sound or the right one for you. I could say more at this point onwards, but I would like to keep this post of mine as simple as the advice as I have written. Feel free to offer your thoughts. EDIT: I finally could use the private messaging system. If you wish, you may private message me to discuss about what is bothering you at any point in time. SECOND EDIT: Sorry. I didn't realize that you still can't receive private messages. My apologies. Edited December 13, 2011 by LZ2000
oldguy Posted December 15, 2011 Posted December 15, 2011 Yes, it was sudden. It's not like the subject had never come up, but the decision was quite sudden. She had mentioned once before that a part of her wished that we had waited longer before becoming intimate, but then she followed by saying she realized we can't go back and change that now and not to worry. I had asked before if she was ok with our sexuality given her beliefs and she said she was. Then she has the confession and counseling session with the priest who is leaving and BOOM! So I can't help but think that he laid a heavy guilt trip on her. Her decision was sudden but her reservations may not have been. The problem I'm having is that one day she's happy, thankful for our beautiful relationship, including the physical aspect, and the next day she's all conflicted and intends to excise it. Not coincidentally, this was the day she had her confession and counseling with the priest. So I am not convinced that this is what SHE really wants so much as a way to relieve feelings of dissonance caused by how the priest made her feel in that moment. Part of confession and asking forgiveness for what you believe is a sin comes with the condition you won't repeat the sin. I would also add that if she didn't feel it was a sin I doubt she would have confessed it.
Author salparadise Posted December 17, 2011 Author Posted December 17, 2011 I'm happy to report that the issue is resolved. We took time off from communicating (most of a week) for each of us to consider it all. She apologized for putting me through the grinder over this and and I apologized for loosing my cool, so to speak. With much [independent] consideration she decided that since we're committed and working on plans that it doesn't need to be an issue - iow, she feels congruent. She's the one who brought it up again. I had decided to not mention it, not push or try to seduce, and treat her like the special woman that she is. I'm guessing that it became more apparent to her that you really can't put it back in the bottle. Giving it time and understanding was the right thing to do - wish I had been wise enough realize that at first.
aaronstone Posted December 19, 2011 Posted December 19, 2011 I'm happy to report that the issue is resolved. We took time off from communicating (most of a week) for each of us to consider it all. She apologized for putting me through the grinder over this and and I apologized for loosing my cool, so to speak. With much [independent] consideration she decided that since we're committed and working on plans that it doesn't need to be an issue - iow, she feels congruent. She's the one who brought it up again. I had decided to not mention it, not push or try to seduce, and treat her like the special woman that she is. I'm guessing that it became more apparent to her that you really can't put it back in the bottle. Giving it time and understanding was the right thing to do - wish I had been wise enough realize that at first. That's awesome. Glad to see you worked things out.
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