Our first problem and it's a biggie

[salparadise]

I met a wonderful woman online (dating site) and we hit it off immediately. We talked on the phone and I went to see her about ten days later. We had instant chemistry, share similar values and interests and have gotten along wonderfully for three months now. She lives 500 miles away. I've made three trips, she's made one and we met halfway once, so we've seen each other twice a month, manage to be together about four days each time. We became intimate quickly and have enjoyed a wonderful physical relationship, although it's not just about the sex––we truly have felt like soul mates and have begun discussing long-term possibilities.

 

She is religious and I am somewhat less religious, perhaps spiritual is a more apt word. I have attended church with her and met her friends there. I belong to a very liberal church and she belongs to a more conservative orthodox church. In the beginning I asked her if she is able to reconcile her faith and our physical intimacy and she replied, yes– it's not an issue. So we continued to progress in our relationship, enjoying physical intimacy, committing to exclusivity and intention for long-term assuming it all continues to go well.

 

The distance is challenging, of course, but we both have felt that it's not insurmountable in light of us being highly compatible and sharing the goal for a life partner and eventually marriage. We are both in our 50s and divorced with similar issues in our marriages, so we are mature and have a lot of understanding and empathy. We have talked on the phone every day for at least an hour and sometime three. Friday night we had a long Skype dinner date and enjoyed ourselves tremendously.

 

So, the priest with whom she has counseled and come to trust and respect over the past few years is leaving. This past weekend she went to confession and had a counseling session with him. Then last night she said she had something we needed to discuss. I didn't expect it to be a big deal but it was. She has decided that engaging in physical intimacy outside of marriage is inconsistent with her faith and values and that will no longer be a part of our relationship. Of course she believes she is taking the high road and is articulate and compassionate in her explanation, but the bottom line is that the priest had quite a bit to do with her making this decision. She emphasized that she loves me and doesn't want to lose me, but it's not really up for discussion as she is firm in her decision.

 

I don't want to lose her either but this is not what I signed on for. My perspective is that we are mature adults seeking happiness and fulfillment in a committed relationship and that it's naive to think she can put it back in the bottle at this point. Not only that, but this is a long-distance relationship and removing the possibility of physical intimacy also removes a huge motivator for me/us to endure the frequent travel. And of course there are the issues not even related to long-distance, such as changing from a perfectly balanced relationship to one where it's all on her terms, the unfairness of creating strong love and attachment through physical intimacy and then unilaterally withdrawing it, and the fact that I probably wouldn't have even gotten involved had I known that physical relations were not to be part of it.

 

I am still reeling from this and have been quite restrained with my words so as not to say anything I will later regret, but to say I'm not happy is an understatement. I'm afraid this could be the end of what I had felt was a very promising relationship that would eventually lead to marriage. I would appreciate well considered opinions as to how I should deal with this, both in the short term and long term, assuming I want to try and save the relationship.

 

Thanks-

[FitChick]

Ask her if a priest is really qualified to give sexual advice and is she planning to become a nun herself?

 

Are you ready to get engaged? You could buy some time by doing that and see if she'd have sex with you.

 

Otherwise say, "I'm very disappointed with your decision but wish you all the best in your future life and good luck on your search." Then go back to the same dating website and put up a new profile. That may shock some sense into her.

 

Of course, it's possible she wanted to break it off with you and this is just a good story she told...

[salparadise]

Thanks for your response, FitChick.

 

We both have children in high school and it will necessarily be two years before we can make significant life changes- it's just not engagement time yet. We are just starting to get to know each other well (yes, I get the irony of that) and past the initial infatuation stage. I'm sure this is not an attempt to break it off, to the contrary she actually hoped I could go along with it. However, it could be subconscious sabotage, or move to establish herself as the one in control the relationship.

 

Twenty-four hours later I am not feeling good about this at all. Even if she were to call up to say she has reconsidered, there has been damage done. I'm not interested in sex if she's only doing it to appease me and feeling that it's not right for her. I feel betrayed and manipulated, and I've dealt with enough of that crap for one lifetime.

 

We're supposed to talk tonight, but beyond reiterating our positions, I honestly don't know that there's anything more to say. I love her but she has managed to kill a lot of the enthusiasm I had for the relationship. I opened my heart and allowed myself to be vulnerable, gave it my best effort and this is my payoff. It doesn't pass the sniff test. I'm about an inch away from telling her we're done but wondering if I should wait until we get together again and hope she'll come to her senses.

 

 

 

 

Ask her if a priest is really qualified to give sexual advice and is she planning to become a nun herself?

 

Are you ready to get engaged? You could buy some time by doing that and see if she'd have sex with you.

 

Otherwise say, "I'm very disappointed with your decision but wish you all the best in your future life and good luck on your search." Then go back to the same dating website and put up a new profile. That may shock some sense into her.

 

Of course, it's possible she wanted to break it off with you and this is just a good story she told...

[TMichaels]

salparadise,

 

Go ahead and ditch her as having sex with this woman is obviously more important to you than anything else she is or can offer.

 

Best you make your requirements very clear in any subsequent dating profiles you post. However, don't be surprised all you attract are women who are only interested in sex and little else. But, it sounds like that won't be much of a deal-breaker for you.

 

You might also want to make sure any future conquests provide you with proof of a recent, negative STD test and of course, being a responsible, mature gentleman, you ought to be doing the same. As you well know, no one likes to get something they didn't "sign on for."

 

Best,

TMichaels

[Ilovewater]

You guys are incompatible sexually and spiritually (to an extent). Just like you, I wouldn't be able to remain in a relationship, let alone a long-distance relationship, without physical intimacy. Emotional and physical intimacy are intertwined, and I can't really have one without the other. I also think it's inconsiderate of her to spring this whole plan on you without event discussing it. If you don't think she can satisfy your needs, you should end this relationship as soon as possible and find someone else. Since physical intimacy is important to you, you might start resenting her if you stay.

[KathyM]

Break it off with her. She has chosen celebacy to honor her faith and commitment to her Christian values. That's obviously a perspective and faith you do not share, so don't waste your time, or hers.

[Ninjainpajamas]

Trust me, it's easier to feel compatible and soul-mate like with more than one woman...especially when it's compounded with the yearning of being unable to see each other often, getting the feeling that everything is so great and would be if only we lived closer.

 

That's a very common factor that doesn't happen with everyone of course but I wouldn't place too many chips on that kind of bet if you know what I mean. It's still early on in the relationship and things like this are what really challenge relationships and test compatibility...chemistry, passion are only part of the factors. Plus that is what we men get high off of in the beginning this sex life doesn't always hold in the distance future.

 

I think it's kind of a sham that this priest intervening is telling her what choices to make to prove her faith, but then again that's probably why I don't go to church. If she is unable to make her own conscience decisions based off her wants or needs for the sake of being more pious then that's just something you're going to ultimately have to accept and make a choice.

 

Of course speak with her about this, and really challenge this priest...if this is apart of the crucial puzzle for you being together then be realistic, also she might not be able to hold out like she thinks she will. So have a in-depth conversation.

 

Bottom line though, being that far away I wouldn't jeopardize a sexual relationship because of religion, that wouldn't make me happy but just force me into a position that I don't really want to be in...and judging from experience..It's probably not a wise choice.

[salparadise]

@Tmichaels

Wow, you have some serious all/nothing characterization there, but you're wrong. You see, if it was only about sex I'd not be enduring the 500 mile drives to begin with, nor would I hesitate to end it without so much as a second thought. It's because I care for her deeply that it matters. Otherwise I'd just do as you say and start hooking up with some craigslist sluts. I've been divorced two years now, and other than with this lovely woman I've not had sex in two years. And it's not because I didn't have any dates or offers either. I waited for someone with whom I could envision being in an ongoing committed relationship. It only works for me in this context.

 

As for the need to state one's expectation for a physical relationship explicitly in an online dating profile, it seems to be assumed. So I think it's the opposite––that it needs to be stated up front if sex is off the table for someone.

 

@Ilovewater

Very well said––I believe you understand.

 

@KathyM

There did not seem to be any sexual or religious incompatibility before Sunday night. I respect her commitment to her faith and actually hope she can help me to grow in that way. It's the rule change in mid-game that I'm having the problem with.

 

@ninjainpajamas

I don't think the priest guilted her into a decision that she wasn't ready to make for herself. He validated the feeling she expressed to him. She says her conscience was not allowing her to feel right about it.

 

Thank you all for your thoughts and comments.

 

Well, we had our conversation last night and she allowed me to vent and express my feelings without turning it into a hurtful argument. She absorbed a lot. She empathized as much as possible recognizes the differences for men and women. Her perspective is that a) this is just where she is now in her faith journey, and b) that it's necessary in order for our relationship to transcend the focus on the physical and become more spiritual in nature. I can understand where she's coming from I suppose even if I don't share that perspective precisely.

 

I did press for clarification as to what "sex outside of marriage" means to her exactly... in other words, does it literally mean not until after the ceremony. She does not mean literally––it's the point at which we permanently commit to each other, so a long engagement a possibility. I'm not quite there yet, but one thing that came out of the conversation is that we're both thinking in those terms and feel that strongly about each other. I wonder if she softened her position, sort of negotiating a potential resolution after realizing that I might be ready to walk otherwise.

 

I'm going to contemplate it awhile. I need to get past the initial shock and out of reactionary mode in order to think clearly. The plan was for her to come here next, two weeks from now, and it might help if we could get some face time. I wish all of this wasn't happening just before Christmas.

Edited December 6, 2011 by salparadise

[creighton0123]

It's important to recognize that more orthodox religions, particularly of the Jewish/Muslim/Christian variety, are fundamentally anti-body, establishing rules and regulations to separate physical pleasure from spiritual pleasure.

 

Anthropologically speaking, it is understandable that this has occurred from desert religions, where a harsh climate surrounded by pagan cultures required the establishment of a faith-pattern as far removed from pagan behaviors as possible in order to create a unique cultural identity.

 

In modernity, it can be seen as sacrificing physical pleasure for spiritual enlightenment, since physical pleasure is the epitome of the human condition or connection to that which is earthly.

 

I digress. At this stage in your life, the two of you are looking for companionship above everything else. It is obvious that you both have done the marriage and family thing that that did not work out to your liking through little or no fault of your own.

 

You had a mature, adult relationship but she changed the pattern of your relationship without any discussion with you as to how it will make you feel. If she is Roman Catholic (your description of her faith indicated that she is), does she know that the Church still sees her as being married even though she is divorced? Unless she received an annulment, she cannot have a Catholic wedding again.

 

If I might make a suggestion:

 

It is obvious that you care about this woman, enough to endure a period of time abstaining from sex until a spiritual commitment. In order to satisfy her spiritual desires with your physical desires (and hers, since she definitely does enjoy sex with you), there is really no need for the two of you to enter into a civil marriage.

 

Let me explain. Long before the invention of civil marriage, marriage was first and foremost a private agreement and a public announcement, with little in the way of government sanction.

 

The two of you can be married without all the bells and whistles of a civil marriage license. If marriage is not in the foreseeable future, you can always do what many gay couples do and have a commitment ceremony - a simple celebration of your relationship. Commitment ceremonies, whether or not you call it a wedding, is very spiritual and requires the announcement of intentions (vows) to one another, albeit without signing a legal document where the state recognizes you as husband and wife.

 

If you so desire in the future, the two of you can do the $30 and justice of the peace wedding. For now, though, a spiritual commitment can be had to unite the two of you spiritually without uniting the two of you legally.

 

After all, did your God intend spiritual marriage to be bound up with over 1000 rights, benefits, protections, and responsibilities? Surely not.

[salparadise]

Thank you for your thoughts, Creighton.

 

Yes, sacrificing physical pleasure to attain spiritual enlightenment is part of it, as much as following the teaching of her faith. It's one of the fundamental dichotomies just as one must experience darkness to appreciate light, suffer pain and loss to fully experience joy, fasting to prepare for a feast.

 

It's not Roman Catholic but Eastern Orthodox, which similar in that it originated from the Roman Empire but is not a Protestant or Reformed denomination. She was not raised in this religion; she chose it more than a decade ago. I'm fairly certain that she would not be required to get an annulment and that remarriage is allowed. I also feel certain that she would want to be married in the church, and doubt that the church would allow that independently of civil marriage, although I haven't researched it.

 

She seemed to back off considerably two days ago, presumably in an effort to defuse the conflict, but was then more adamant yesterday. As disagreements typically evolve, we were growing more rigid and standing or our positions. It is very difficult to argue against this as doing so essentially places one in the position of arguing against God or her right to practice her faith as she feels called to. I can only argue the irrationality and unfairness of implementing the new paradigm three months into a fully physical, romantic relationship but logic and fairness are on a different track than the core motivation. So we were both frustrated and frazzled but not angry as we said goodnight.

 

I am not going to engage in anymore debates or discussion of this as it only tends to polarize us. I made the point that it could not be the same relationship and that since I would be acquiescing rather than enthusiastically participating it might cause resentment that would undermine the relationship even if I tried my best to avoid it. I made the point that this issue would be difficult even if it weren't a long-distance relationship. I sent her flowers today and we exchanged some nice txt messages.

 

I am inclined to let this play out and let the chips fall where they may. There is a push-pull effect that works against me. I will be polite and affectionate up to a point but not effusive and I certainly won't be letting on that I'm frustrated or trying to talk her out of her panties. In other words, I'm going to play it a little cool and let her to come to me... When she next comes to visit I'll just show her into the spare bedroom for starters. Maybe lay one good passionate kiss on her and then back off and treat her like my sister.

 

You see, I don't believe the timing of this is quite the coincidence that she thinks it is. I believe there may be subconscious motivations that have to do with her desiring to be pursued and in control, or just some crazy need that I'm not seeing clearly. Regardless, this is not something that will be resolved by lengthy discussion and arguments. This is going to require me to give her tastes of romance and then genuinely back off so that she'll be feeling the need to lay it on me. Of course the possibility exists that it will just not work out. I'll have the option until I exercise it.

Edited December 8, 2011 by salparadise

[SincereOnlineGuy]

It's because I care for her deeply that it matters.

 

 

Um, no, that is the ONE thing we can rule out, based on all you've said.

 

 

Anyone who can spell l-o-v-e-s-h-a-c-k can tell that IF you cared for her deeply enough, it wouldn't matter.

 

 

 

And who's to say that she's not merely "testing" you... (with a very respectable-to-some 'excuse' for not putting-out any time soon) ?

 

 

If that were the case, you'd at least want to pass such a test... ahem, IF you cared for her deeply.

[salparadise]

Um, no, that is the ONE thing we can rule out, based on all you've said.

 

Anyone who can spell l-o-v-e-s-h-a-c-k can tell that IF you cared for her deeply enough, it wouldn't matter.

 

And who's to say that she's not merely "testing" you... (with a very respectable-to-some 'excuse' for not putting-out any time soon) ?

 

If that were the case, you'd at least want to pass such a test... ahem, IF you cared for her deeply.

 

Well, you're entitled to your opinion I suppose but there's a big difference between not caring and being willing to relinquish all balance in the relationship and passively go along with changing things up after three months, or to continue the push-pull dynamic which is a lose/lose no matter what. If it's a test then it's manipulation. So I simply disagree.

[sugarmomma]

or move to establish herself as the one in control the relationship.

 

 

 

^^^^^^This right here. She knows exactly what she is doing and how she would feel after fornicating for a while and liking it. Don't let her manipulate you. I would wish her the best, deal with my feelings and move forward.

[TMichaels]

Well, you're entitled to your opinion I suppose... but being willing to relinquish all balance in the relationship and passively go along with changing things up after three months, or to continue the push-pull dynamic which is a lose/lose no matter what. If it's a test then it's manipulation.... I don't want to lose her either but this is not what I signed on for.

 

God forbid the poor woman has a disfiguring accident or develops a debilitating disease. You wouldn't have signed on for that one either. Must be nice to live in a world where all goes according to *your* plan.

 

You may say that your insistence of not respecting her choice to no longer have sex with you is simply a case of "maintaining balance in the relationship."

 

Truth is, you thought you had the booty call issue covered, now she's changed her mind and you're pissed.

 

You can't fathom why she won't see things your way and because she doesn't, she must be playing a game with you. LOL... You must be kidding, right?

 

You accuse her of being manipulative, yet...

 

" ... this is not something that will be resolved by lengthy discussion and arguments. This is going to require me to give her tastes of romance and then genuinely back off so that she'll be feeling the need to lay it on me. When she next comes to visit I'll just show her into the spare bedroom for starters. Maybe lay one good passionate kiss on her and then back off and treat her like my sister."

 

Bit of "pot, kettle, black" there, pal -- not to mention incredibly juvenile and vindictive.

 

And they say "Hell hath no fury like *a woman* scorned?"

 

LOL...

 

TMichaels

Edited December 9, 2011 by TMichaels

[salparadise]

If she had some health issue that precluded a physical relationship, that would be a different situation altogether. The analogy is not valid. My assumption is that health problems or aging will end our sex life eventually. I am in my late 50s and most men lose both drive and ability by around age 70. I am still going strong for the moment and I don't want to spend that potential flicking my own bic like a horny teenager for the next two years.

 

I'm not sure why the two of you (TM & SOG) can't see that I am simply trying to save the relationship. It's like I told her: if we had postponed intimacy from the beginning and dated for three months, by this time I'd be ready to either get started or move on, and I wouldn't be nearly as invested emotionally. And if she had stated up front that there was to be no sex before marriage we wouldn't have have a problem because we wouldn't have begun a relationship, much less a 500 mile LDR. Taking things slow in the beginning is a whole different deal than pulling the hook and switch even if it is for presumably honorable reasons. We aren't exactly talking about someone who is ready for the nunnery here. She's had several relationships that included the physical component (and considerations that I won't go into) since her divorce. On the other hand, I have abstained for the past two years and waited for exactly the kind of relationship I thought we were developing. It's not a matter of not caring, callousness, or not seeing her perspective. I have my own perspective which is equally valid and am not really interested in playing footsies for two more years.

 

It seems that I shouldn't have to explain this but... the whole physical/emotional relationship is integrated as opposed to being an assortment of bolt-on options. Sexuality is both an expression of emotional love and a vehicle through which it is nurtured. We aren't teenagers contemplating our virginity. It is a fundamental human need. In fact, Abraham Maslow, the psychologist famous for defining the hierarchy of human needs, recognizes sex as a physiological need along with breathing, food, water and taking a good s&%!*, but then two layers up expression through sexual intimacy is listed in the Loving/Belonging stage. Here's the pyramid (I guess this board doesn't allow images, other than it's advertising. Click the link.)

 

 

@sugarmomma - Yes that's my feeling too. If her conviction was so strong and fundamental then why was she able to freely engage in sexual relations until she felt the attachment was secured? The balanced relationship that we've cultivated is wonderful in part because it includes intimacy. To think that one can arbitrarily and unilaterally remove a key element and have things stay in balance is naive. In fact, just the attempt to change the terms, regardless of whether it works or not, is throwing it out of balance. She's the one putting the relationship on the line. And in doing so it gives me pause as I wonder if she may be predisposed to creating drama, manufacturing issues, and placing obstacles in the path of an otherwise harmonious, fulfilling relationship.

Edited December 9, 2011 by salparadise

[SincereOnlineGuy]

relinquish all balance in the relationship

 

 

Sal, you simply cannot comprehend what "all balance" means.

 

 

Therein lies your problem.

[SincereOnlineGuy]

It is a fundamental human need. In fact, Abraham Maslow, the psychologist famous for defining the hierarchy of human needs, recognizes sex as a physiological need along with breathing, food, water and taking a good s&%!*.

 

 

Thanks for helping your girlfriend's case here by citing a psychologist who points out five "human needs", four of which you "needed" since day one, and another "need" you managed to put aside for a good sixteen, fourteen, twenty-two, or twelve years.

 

Put concisely, your "problem" isn't a "biggie" for anyone other than yourself.

 

(and you can't even use the old stance about needing to know whether you're sexually compatible before commitment)

[salparadise]

Well, I guess you must be all knowing, wise and the ultimate authority SOG. How could you not be with a moniker like that. I do find it curious though, that you merely attack other's credibility as opposed to attempting to present a convincing argument. I seem to be in good company since you've pronounced both me and Maslow clueless with one sweeping declaration.

[LittleTiger]

I agree salparadise - it is a biggie, and not one that I believe I could come to terms with. It is hard enough having to wait weeks, or even months, to make love to someone you care about so deeply, but to have them say they want to continue the relationship on a celibate basis would be torture. A happy and satisfying romantic relationship must include sex.

 

She has obviously made her decision and intends to stand by it so, if I was you, I would probably let her know that these new conditions do not work for you and you have no choice but to move on.

 

There are many posts on these boards under the marriage section about sexless marriages and such relationships are placed under a huge amount of strain. In most cases the 'no sex' comes about after several years together and it's therefore understandable that even the sexually deprived partner is not in a hurry to walk away.

 

However, your relationship is not only brand new, but is also long distance, so I see little point in continuing - regardless of how much she means to you. It is very sad but you are no longer compatible as a couple.

[FitChick]

She's had several relationships that included the physical component (and considerations that I won't go into) since her divorce.

 

If her conviction was so strong and fundamental then why was she able to freely engage in sexual relations until she felt the attachment was secured?

 

Have you asked her this? I wonder if she pulled the same stunt on the other guys and that is why those relationships ended.

 

Why not agree to be friends and suggest you both start dating others so you can be sure of your feelings for each other?

[salparadise]

@LittleTiger and FitChick - I don't want to end the relationship, don't want to go out with anyone else, and don't want her to either. However, I also believe that a happy romantic relationship must be fulfilling on many levels and the physical part is integral and essential. I believe that even if I tried to accept this that our previously beautiful relationship would erode because the frustration would tend to be cumulative. It's one thing to do that nine hour drive knowing that a night of passion awaits, it's quite another to do it knowing that I'll be staying with the object of my desire and that she'll be expecting me to be affectionate and tender while at the same time keeping me at arm's length. It will be inappropriate to express my frustration, withhold affection, or try and tempt her to cross the line. The only way it can work long-term is if I share her religious perspective and commitment to chastity, which I obviously do not.

 

The only hope for the relationship as I see it is for her to realize it can't work and that she values me and the relationship too much to allow it to deteriorate this way, or for her to simply not be able to maintain compliance herself. I see both of these as being potential outcomes, so my plan is encourage her to come here at the end of next week, as previously planned, and see what transpires. I could be wrong, but based on how she has responded to me thus far, I can't imagine that she'd be able to hold out indefinitely. I understand that these will have to be her realizations.

 

So the question becomes then, how do I help her come to this realization––by being understanding, tender, affectionate and affirming, or by withdrawing, or some combination of the two. I talked to a trusted female friend about this and she tends to believe that my gf needs to affirm that my affections are genuinely for her as a person as opposed to the sex making me feel great about myself. I can understand that. This implies that the religious rationale is not actually the root of the motivation, although she may not be conscious of it.

 

From a broader perspective, just the fact that we are suddenly dealing with this such a deal-breaking issue after having zero conflict or disagreements for three months is not a good sign. Seriously, not even one small disagreement in three months. Then out of the blue the relationship is on the line and it seems irreconcilable.

Edited December 11, 2011 by salparadise

[LittleTiger]

I don't want to end the relationship, don't want to go out with anyone else, and don't want her to either. However, I also believe that a happy romantic relationship must be fulfilling on many levels and the physical part is integral and essential. I believe that even if I tried to accept this that our previously beautiful relationship would erode because the frustration would tend to be cumulative. It's one thing to do that nine hour drive knowing that a night of passion awaits, it's quite another to do it knowing that I'll be staying with the object of my desire and that she'll be expecting me to be affectionate and tender while at the same time keeping me at arm's length. It will be inappropriate to express my frustration, withhold affection, or try and tempt her to cross the line. The only way it can work long-term is if I share her religious perspective and commitment to chastity, which I obviously do not.

 

I understand exactly what you're saying which is why I responded as I did. I have been in a 12,000 mile LDR for over two years and, regardless of the very deep love I have for my man, there are some things that I would still consider deal breakers. Lack of compatibility is a major one and 'no sex' would be a major incompatibility.

 

LDRs are difficult enough without one partner imposing a 'sex ban' - seriously, what is the point of the relationship if you don't have intimacy and sex? You just become long distance friends! I doubt there is a person on this forum who would continue in the kind of relationship your girlfriend is suggesting.

 

The only hope for the relationship as I see it is for her to realize it can't work and that she values me and the relationship too much to allow it to deteriorate this way, or for her to simply not be able to maintain compliance herself. I see both of these as being potential outcomes, so my plan is encourage her to come here at the end of next week, as previously planned, and see what transpires. I could be wrong, but based on how she has responded to me thus far, I can't imagine that she'd be able to hold out indefinitely. I understand that these will have to be her realizations.

 

So the question becomes then, how do I help her come to this realization––by being understanding, tender, affectionate and affirming, or by withdrawing, or some combination of the two. I talked to a trusted female friend about this and she tends to believe that my gf needs to affirm that my affections are genuinely for her as a person as opposed to the sex making me feel great about myself. I can understand that. This implies that the religious rationale is not actually the root of the motivation, although she may not be conscious of it.

 

If you read back over your post you will notice that your hope for the relationship is all about her changing her mind - and you don't really have any control over that. In fact you're in a Catch-22 situation. She has asked you to respect her wishes, apparently on religious grounds, for celibacy and, if you love and respect her, that is what you should do. However, you realise that this means the death of your relationship, even if she doesn't, so you are talking about pushing her boundaries and basically going against her wishes - not an ideal scenario for a couple who care deeply for one another.

 

If her new 'rules' for sex require her to be in a stable long term relationship leading to marriage ie she wants to be at least engaged, then you certainly should not 'push' in the hope that she will weaken and be unable to hold out (as you put it!). That strikes me as a little coercive and would be very unfair of you. She may well give in eventually, but how will she feel about it afterwards and how will she feel about you for pressuring her?

 

I think you have two options:

 

1. You talk to her and let her know, in no uncertain terms, that 'no sex' is a dealbreaker for you. That you care about her but the relationship will not work for you without sexual intimacy.

 

2. You ask her to marry you (or somehow pretend that you are more committed to her than you really are) - with the understanding that a sexual relationship is expected now that you have reached this level of commitment.

 

I don't think you have much choice but to go with option one and then leave it up to her to decide which is more important to her - your relationship or her celibacy.

Edited December 11, 2011 by LittleTiger

[salparadise]

 

I think you have two options:

 

1. You talk to her and let her know, in no uncertain terms, that 'no sex' is a dealbreaker for you. That you care about her but the relationship will not work for you without sexual intimacy.

 

2. You ask her to marry you (or somehow pretend that you are more committed to her than you really are) - with the understanding that a sexual relationship is expected now that you have reached this level of commitment.

 

I don't think you have much choice but to go with option one and then leave it up to her to decide which is more important to her - your relationship or her celibacy.

 

LittleTiger,

Well, the third option would be none of the above, but being respectful of her decision even if I don't agree, thinking of it as temporary, and use it to figure out how I feel about her. I could decide not to be coercive while keeping my options open and seeing how it feels after a couple of months.

 

Then the possibilities are: 1) I see that she is resolute and it's not going to work so I terminate 2) I realize I want her in my life forever and I propose 3) she cognitively realizes the absurdity after awhile and softens up 4) she gets crazy horny at some point and gives it up 5) I rent a sexy movie, buy a bottle of premium tequila, kiss her neck and whisper deviant thoughts in her ear while massaging her breasts

 

Of course, I am half joking about number five, but who knows. Is it coercive? Depends on how you think about it––there is nothing new to us in that scenario. There is also nothing new about men strategizing to get into women's panties. Perfectly consistent with the old idiom "all is fair in love and war." I really cannot imagine her/us holding out on this for very long. Yes, she has her convictions, which in this case seems more cognitive than instinctual, but she is also quite sensuous and responsive. Can she just switch it off? I don't know yet––she's no shrinking violet. I really can't imagine this lasting indefinitely.

Edited December 12, 2011 by salparadise

[LZ2000]

I smell a whole lot of sexual tension in this topic.

 

I wouldn't know if my own advice would even help or give important insights to Sal, so I am going to wait for Sal to ask me first before I post anything.

[oldguy]

I'm very familiar with The Roman as well as The Eastern Rights or Byzantine's and if she has been a member for a decade I'm wondering why this suddenly became an issue for her. I know she just 'confessed' it, but why her sudden adherence to this conviction? Or was it sudden, do you know?