Does the "average" guy really have that much trouble with dating and relationships?

[jobaba]

So honestly, what gives? Are the bitter, angry dudes here just seeing what their eyes want to see and tuning out reality, or was I somehow blessed with having friends and acquaintances who all happen to be within this magical 10% of men who sleep with 90% of the women?

 

First time seeing this quote. Honestly, it could be you and your friends.

 

Are you white and are most of your friends 6 foot and over and pretty social and such? Frat boys?

 

Imagine that compared to a group of nerdy Indian guys who are shorter, slight, and shy.

 

It's a big difference.

[lululucy]

First time seeing this quote. Honestly, it could be you and your friends.

 

Are you white and are most of your friends 6 foot and over and pretty social and such? Frat boys?

 

Imagine that compared to a group of nerdy Indian guys who are shorter, slight, and shy.

 

It's a big difference.

 

I have to keep reminding myself of this -- I have very little experience with the latter, as most of my friends are athletic, university educated and highly social. I forget sometimes that I'm biased, because I see the world much like the OP does, not a lot of problems.

[ThaWholigan]

First time seeing this quote. Honestly, it could be you and your friends.

 

Are you white and are most of your friends 6 foot and over and pretty social and such? Frat boys?

 

Imagine that compared to a group of nerdy Indian guys who are shorter, slight, and shy.

 

It's a big difference.

 

For the record, I'm a tall black rap artist from London with a massive social circle and I don't fare much better

[Wolf18]

I think someone else said here, that America is a very clique-ish place. This is very true.

 

 

Obviously jobaba, if lululucy's social circle is all upper middle class white people, you can't expect any Asian or Indian guy to get into that, except maybe if he's rich too. It's not "Racist" per se, people just prefer the company of similar people.

 

My issue is that it seems women get social affirmative action. Some of the girls who were part of my clique growing up , the handful of white working people in my area (LOL) ended up dating rich guido guys from long island or make it their goal in life to join those upper middle class cliques when they go to college.

 

Women are always trying to keep up with the Jones', it's their curse but in shallow , deracinated ****-holes like America this kind of mentality is actually nurtured so it's 100 times worse.

[verhrzn]

First time seeing this quote. Honestly, it could be you and your friends.

 

Are you white and are most of your friends 6 foot and over and pretty social and such? Frat boys?

 

Imagine that compared to a group of nerdy Indian guys who are shorter, slight, and shy.

 

It's a big difference.

 

I don't think that's true. I hang out almost exclusively with nerdy circles, and (stereotyping here) the guys are shorter, not in great shape (not bad shape... average shape), and somewhat socially awkward. Yet a glance through my Friends list confirms that most of the guys are dating someone.

 

In my experience, the guys who are single are single because 1) they want to be 2) they have very unrealistic expectations of women or 3) they have some rather large personality deficits.

[Wolf18]

I don't think that's true. I hang out almost exclusively with nerdy circles, and (stereotyping here) the guys are shorter, not in great shape (not bad shape... average shape), and somewhat socially awkward. Yet a glance through my Friends list confirms that most of the guys are dating someone.

 

In my experience, the guys who are single are single because 1) they want to be 2) they have very unrealistic expectations of women or 3) they have some rather large personality deficits.

 

 

 

Hanging out with nerds at 21 is different than hanging out with nerds at 30.

 

21, only girls in that nerdy circle are the ones that use them to tutor them in calculus.

 

30, women want a piece of the action when nerds get their high paying tech jobs, depending on where you live in the midwest this is doubly true as high paying jobs are not as common as in NYC, LA, or Chicago.

[verhrzn]

Hanging out with nerds at 21 is different than hanging out with nerds at 30.

 

21, only girls in that nerdy circle are the ones that use them to tutor them in calculus.

 

30, women want a piece of the action when nerds get their high paying tech jobs, depending on where you live in the midwest this is doubly true as high paying jobs are not as common as in NYC, LA, or Chicago.

 

Because... girls can't possibly be nerds. And can't possibly enjoy nerdy guys for reasons other than their high wage. And all nerds MUST work in high paying tech jobs.

[O'Malley]

First time seeing this quote. Honestly, it could be you and your friends.

 

Are you white and are most of your friends 6 foot and over and pretty social and such? Frat boys?

 

Imagine that compared to a group of nerdy Indian guys who are shorter, slight, and shy.

 

It's a big difference.

 

Eh, I don't entirely discount environment, as I think some regions have more rigid mindsets about what determines 'value', but I'm not seeing this as a whole. I have friends that I graduated college with, and friends that didn't go on to higher education, and I don't see any real disparity in the amount of relationships that they have. The only significant difference is that the ones who didn't go on to school (whether out of choice or lack of financial options) tended to get married and start families at an earlier age.

 

As far as the height thing, both where I was raised and where I now live, the vast majority of men are not giants -- I'm 5'10", and guys are generally a little shorter or a little taller than me. I'm always seeing men shorter than me with women. The height thing is (or should be) inconsequential, at least in real life and off of the dating sites.

[Ilovewater]

First time seeing this quote. Honestly, it could be you and your friends.

 

Are you white and are most of your friends 6 foot and over and pretty social and such? Frat boys?

 

Imagine that compared to a group of nerdy Indian guys who are shorter, slight, and shy.

 

It's a big difference.

 

Maybe it's different in other social groups, but within my circle of friends, most of them fare decently dating wise. 3/4 of them are in long-term relationships, engaged, or married. Some of the guys are Asian who are "short" and average looking, and only a few have difficulty with women.

 

If you look around, average people are in relationships everywhere. You don't have to be the richest, the smartest, and the hottest to attract people.

[rocketboy9]

It depends greatly on the guys social group.

 

For example when I was studying art in college I could get a date by just showing up. A lot of my classes were like 80% women and all I had to do was do the artist thing and the women loved me.

 

Than when I switched to computers it was the exact opposite. The classes were like 95% guys who had bad social skills. They couldnt get laid in the middle of a cat house in New Orleans waving $100 bills.

 

When I got out of college and got my first job, all my friends were engineers. Except for a tiny % almost all had a tough time meeting women. These were sociable, intelligent guys but were by the no means typical nerd guys that are into nothing but video games and porn. Most had very varied interests and could converse about all kinds of things.

 

But....they were not hard party guys, didnt frequent bars and when they found a girls they stayed with them till the end. Most of them had like no more than 1-2 girlfriends before they met their wife. I am not exaggerating. You could say they were losers, didnt meet the right person, whatever...

 

I would hardly call any of them very successful with women.

[TheBigQuestion]

First time seeing this quote. Honestly, it could be you and your friends.

 

Are you white and are most of your friends 6 foot and over and pretty social and such? Frat boys?

 

Imagine that compared to a group of nerdy Indian guys who are shorter, slight, and shy.

 

It's a big difference.

 

I can say with conviction that my circle of friends is not the way you describe it. I'm half Greek and half South American, and I've spent my entire life in one of the most ethnically diverse areas in the country. You also need to remember that I'm not the kind of person that really bothers deleting people on Facebook, so I've accumulated 500+ "friends" over the years. It has nothing to do with the people I hang out with, because when I did my psuedo-scientific sampling, a lot of the people who have their relationship status on display could hardly be called my friends.

[dasein]

I can say with conviction that my circle of friends is not the way you describe it.

 

You didn't answer his questions for the most part. Are you 6' or over? Are you from an upper middle-upper class background? Were you in a fraternity in college? Are you in law school? to add one or two. IMO jobaba may have a good point depending on the answers to those.

[TheBigQuestion]

... Framing the whole question in these terms is silly. It's like stepping in crap looking at your shoe.... smelling it... tasting it... feeling it... and still wondering if you had stepped in crap. What's wrong with you?

 

OF COURSE there are a large number of guys out there who can't get a date. Part of that is explained by women's proclivity to date older men. So younger women are going after older men. Indeed the chronically single women you see are typically older themselves as they are out-competed by younger women.

 

So, lets be realistic. What is the single most important indicator as to whether a man will be able to date or not. Confidence... So what you are really asking is are there really so many guys out there who have no confidence? Right?

 

For women the absolute top factor in finding a guy... is unfortunately physical appearance. This is why women use plastic surgery at 5 times the rate of men.

 

Personally, I would LOVE to know where all the obese wolf ugly women are that can't get dates. I usually see them running around with a litter of kids... but no man in sight.

 

I'm not asking about men's confidence. I'm simply reflecting upon what I've observed my entire life and trying to reconcile it with the assertions of a few of the men that post here. No matter what stage of life I've been in, the guys I've known that could flat out not get any dates at all were very few and far between. I can only think of a handful of guys I've known that have never been in a relationship. I can only think of three guys that I know that are still virgins by their mid-20s, and strongly suspect maybe three others as well. And like I've said repeatedly, I haven't spent my entire life socializing with rich, white, hyperconfident Brad-Pitt lookalikes. Most people's experiences are somewhere in between, but the "in-between" usually includes at least a few relationships or the ability to get laid here and there. If you don't define that as "success," that's fine, but it's more success than the guys who parrot the view that 90% of men spend most of their time involuntarily celibate typically experience.

[TheBigQuestion]

You didn't answer his questions for the most part. Are you 6' or over? Are you from an upper middle-upper class background? Were you in a fraternity in college? Are you in law school? to add one or two. IMO jobaba may have a good point depending on the answers to those.

 

Good point. I am in law school, and in the midst of finals, so forgive me for not addressing everything as thoroughly as I should.

 

1. I'm 6'1", although I fail to see what this means about the numerous categories of friends, acquaintances, and enemies I've had throughout my life. This isn't about my personal relationship experience.

 

2. I'm from an upper-middle class community, yes, although my own upbringing could properly be characterized as lower-middle class.

 

3. I was in a fraternity. Take my word for it when I say that it got virtually no one laid. It wasn't that type of place. It was a fun time, but it was mostly a place for slackers and pseudo-deadbeats and we were considered well off the beaten path by the fraternity orthodoxy and, by extension, the groupies that followed them.

 

4. Yes, I'm in law school. Most of the men who I assume are still virginal are law school guys.

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[irc333]

But....they were not hard party guys, didnt frequent bars and when they found a girls they stayed with them till the end. Most of them had like no more than 1-2 girlfriends before they met their wife.

 

Good points, I some people measure their "success" with women, by the number of times they get laid, while others by the # of dates.

 

Usually the guys quoted above are the kind of guys women marry, but not date.

[dasein]

Good luck with your exams TBQ.

[Ross MwcFan]

This is something I've been meaning to get write about for a while, because it's something that a significant portion of male posters here assert. In short, everyone who is a regular here has seen some variation of the following statements: "The vast majority of men can be dateless for months and years at a time." "If you aren't really rich, good looking, a drug-dealer, or otherwise are high status, most women won't touch you with a 10 foot pole." "I'm under 5'10" and don't have muscle, this must be the reason that women don't like me." "10% of men bang 90% of the women." etc, etc, ad nauseum.

 

The first thing I think of whenever I see any of these statements is wonder on which planet these posters spend most of their time. This simply does not reflect the experience of anyone I know in real life, with the exception of the men who are extraordinarily bad looking and out of shape and/or are known to have behaved towards women in almost criminally creepy ways. I know this isn't a scientific sampling, but I decided to go to my friend list on Facebook to see just how many men are in a relationship. I don't have the time to actually look through the whole thing, but I went through the first 3 letters of the alphabet and found that, among that sampling, 20 of the men were either in relationships, married, or always have an FWB. It really seemed like a 50/50 split, and this is just what people are willing to share on facebook. I'm 24, and everyone in my friends list is between the ages of 19 and 33 or so. Beyond facebook, the majority of my friends have had girlfriends for significant portions of their lives, and their social capital (in all the aforementioned ways) pretty much runs the gamut from pretty high to abysmally, wtfisshedoingwithhim low.

 

So honestly, what gives? Are the bitter, angry dudes here just seeing what their eyes want to see and tuning out reality, or was I somehow blessed with having friends and acquaintances who all happen to be within this magical 10% of men who sleep with 90% of the women?

 

They're seriously deluded.

[oaks]

So honestly, what gives? Are the bitter, angry dudes here just seeing what their eyes want to see and tuning out reality,

 

Yes. It's easy to unconsciously assume that, generally, other people have similar luck/experiences as you.

 

A story I was told as a child went something like this: There were two brothers who worked in a mine. One worked at the coal face where it's very dusty and dirty, and the other worked in the relatively clean above-ground facility. They saw each other at the end of the shift and the one who worked above ground saw the blackened face of the brother who worked below ground and assumed that he would be in a similar state. The brother who worked below ground saw the clean face of the one who worked above ground and didn't imagine that his face would be any different. So the one with the clean face washed his face before he went home, and the one with the coal-blackened face didn't see the need to do this... and promptly got bawled out by his wife when he got home.

 

I'm sure there was a moral to the story, but I don't remember the details. Something about not assuming that your lot is the same as your brother's, or about trying to view things from the perspective of someone else, I suppose.

 

Here endeth the lesson.

 

 

(and I also think that some of the bitter, angry dudes deliberately spew their vitriol here as a form of attention-seeking tantrum-throwing, but that's a different story.)

[somedude81]

Seems people are forgetting/ignoring that there are millions of men out there who do struggle with women.

 

They may not be a majority of the population, but they do exist.

[Els]

Seems people are forgetting/ignoring that there are millions of men out there who do struggle with women.

 

They may not be a majority of the population, but they do exist.

 

It's really the same thing as you refusing to believe us when we tell you that many women struggle with men as well, because you do not know any. People perceive reality to be what the tiny sample of human lives representative of the town or city they live in demonstrates. Many can't fathom that them not knowing anyone of the sort does not preclude such people from existing.

[carhill]

I think the 'struggle' is pretty equal opportunity, across all realms of 'leagues', whether average or not. Of course, the struggle is defined differently for different groups and different people. For example, your struggle, somedude81, might be finding a woman who wants to be your girlfriend and enjoy sex with you. Another person might not have that issue at all but can't maintain a long term relationship. Another wants to have kids and can't find a compatible and attractive partner. Another wants casual sex and is surrounded by people in committed relationships. Another might be married but in a sexless or loveless marriage. On and on. Everyone 'struggles' differently and uniquely. We, some of us, tend to focus in on our personal circumstances and see them as overarching in scope. That's valid. It's part of human nature. We can chose differently.

[TheBigQuestion]

Seems people are forgetting/ignoring that there are millions of men out there who do struggle with women.

 

They may not be a majority of the population, but they do exist.

 

I'm not ignoring that. What I'm saying is that it isn't as widespread as people make it out to be. I.e. it's not becoming the norm for men by any means.

[jobaba]

I think the 'struggle' is pretty equal opportunity, across all realms of 'leagues', whether average or not. Of course, the struggle is defined differently for different groups and different people. For example, your struggle, somedude81, might be finding a woman who wants to be your girlfriend and enjoy sex with you. Another person might not have that issue at all but can't maintain a long term relationship. Another wants to have kids and can't find a compatible and attractive partner. Another wants casual sex and is surrounded by people in committed relationships. Another might be married but in a sexless or loveless marriage. On and on. Everyone 'struggles' differently and uniquely. We, some of us, tend to focus in on our personal circumstances and see them as overarching in scope. That's valid. It's part of human nature. We can chose differently.

 

That's not really fair. Telling Somedude that he has the same problem as a woman who has nobody but has rejected a ton of men because she absolutely will not settle for anything less than a man who is hot, successful, smart, and funny. Put it this way. I never had to worry about money growing up and I had my college paid for. I am not going to take that for granted. I'm not going to go up to a person who grew up in poverty and had to work full time to pay their way through college and say, "I have $ problems too. They're just different than yours." Similarly, a person who has never had trouble finding dates should NEVER take that for granted.

 

But you're right. I understand that is how human nature works.

 

On the other hand ... if we play the game based on finding someone who is compatible instead of someone who is hot and successful, or extremely intelligent, then we won't care about what 'league' we're in. Or at least that's the idea. Haven't found another person who thinks like that probably ... ever ... a few times I have actually.

Edited December 8, 2011 by jobaba