Does the "average" guy really have that much trouble with dating and relationships?

[jobaba]

She kept telling me that the reason she wouldn't date me, was because she wasn't interested in dating anybody.

 

Woman: "I'm not interested in dating anybody."

 

Translation: "I'm not interested in dating YOU."

 

This is really terribly mean-spirited. From what you have said, she never did anything bad to you--she just didn't feel the same way for you that you did for her. It's sad that you wish her harm for that.

 

It's not as bad as it sounds. Since I have been in SD's position multiple times, I have some perspective. We all have our optimist and pessimist sides. The pessimist side just wishes the woman who caused us pain could feel some of the same heartbreak. But the optimist side knows there's lots of other women out there, and another rejection isn't a big deal. It's actions that count, not thoughts. Thoughts and emotions are hard and sometimes impossible to control. I have in mind wished some serious ill will towards some of the women who caused me the most heartbreak. But in real life, I have wished them all well...

Edited December 6, 2011 by jobaba

[irc333]

True. And I also live in a small town. The benefit on the other side, however, is that you know the character of the people that are no longer married. Just like I knew one woman that was interested in me as not being impartial to sleeping with other women's husbands. I flat out had to tell her thats why I didn't want to date her when she wouldn't leave me alone.

 

So the benefit of a small town is, you have a better idea of the type of people you date.

 

Yeah....I dont' know about you, but if you do a search on POF or dating sites within like 10 miles of your small town, I"m wondering if you get people that look like a bunch of inbreds or not? LOL

 

The attractive ones are usually are out-of-towners (new in towners actually) that resorted to online methods. lol

 

Though, there's this one rather hot woman, been on the site forever.....see her all the time as "online" but she's yet to find someone, she'll proably never will.

 

I figured single people (the very few in existence)in small towns can't afford to be picky (when it comes to looks).....and of course, she'll be single for as long as she lives there if she's picky when it comes to the physical.

Edited December 6, 2011 by irc333

[lululucy]

It's pretty much what happened to me in this thread at the hands of Wolf, who cannot seem to conceive of a reality outside his own. My question is, since virtually everyone here is sharing anecdotal evidence, why do so many male posters fail to admit the possibility that it's extraordinary difficult to ascertain whats "normal" as far as the male dating experience is concerned?

 

So completely true. As fascinating as I find the posters on LS, I would not by any means come here for a balanced view of relationships as there are a lot of burned people who cannot see past their own pain to the truth of their situation or of the world in general.

 

I have three distinct groups of male friends from different points in my life. Those I've known since I was in elementary/junior high, a group of guys I met through a friend and the random friends I've made over the years.

 

Men from my youth are about 80% in relationships, engaged, married or at least sleeping with someone consistently. Typical middle class neighbourhood, most are in univerisity (getting fine arts degrees or liberal arts), living at home, in debt, etc. Only a few of them have real jobs and interestingly they are less likely to have girlfriends.

 

The second group (I call them the Hockey Guys) are from a suburb much more well-off from my own. They're all slightly older than me (25-30). Many of them are still in school but many have finished, generally in Business or Science degrees. Four are engaged or married, five in serious relationships, two recently out of serious relationships, one single always (not by choice). I don't count my friends who got dumped as having problems with women -- their relationships lasted upwards of two years and plenty of people get dumped without having done something to make it happen. For them (a higher income bracket, more educated group), the general statistic would be about 70%.

 

Of the other random scatterings of friends I've made.. 50% or so either have girlfriends or are at least able to date if they want, but generally would rather save their money and get laid once in a while than deal with having a girlfriend.

[Wolf18]

sexual frustration can lead men to acts of violence;

 

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Sodini

 

Prostitution should be made legal and affordable to all beta and omega males like somedude81. It would leave only the Alphas to approach women, and the low value males wouldn't go crazy.

 

The equality lie has left a lot of men in their 20's to rot, male sexual drives are different, much more powerful and violent than a womans, and when the beast isn't fed it breaks out of the cage and lashes out at the world.

 

Some guys lash out by starting fights everywhere. Others become rapists. A few extreme ones go on shooting sprees. The rest go on forums like this.

 

The male sexual drive is a powerful entity that must have direction, or shyt can happen. Traditionally men utilized it for war (male sexual energy is akin to combat energy), but in the modern world ruled by women and pansys they don't want you to be allowed to pay a woman for sex, don't guarantee a wife, OR give you any heroic opportunities, instead you're supposed to shrink back into your cubicle and finish your TPS reports *loads AR-15*.

[lululucy]

Woman: "I'm not interested in dating anybody."

 

Translation: "I'm not interested in dating YOU."

 

Truth.

 

This conversation reminds me of this guy I met ten months ago or so through friends when a group of us went out to the bar. We hit it off and I would have definitely agreed to a date with him -- until we were driving home and he started ranting about how all women do is give mixed messages and how he's tired of being friendzoned etc etc. He tried to kiss me when he dropped me off but after listening to twenty minutes of how women are sluts and don't know how to make up their minds or see a good thing when it's in front of them -- I was completely turned off. I politely turned him down and thanked him for the ride.

 

Just last week, he sent me a facebook message (he deleted me from facebook a few months ago and then texted me to ask if I'd noticed or cared). The message was asking "Why don't you want to date me? I thought we got along. You're the same as the rest of them." I had not in ANY WAY given him the impression I wanted to date him unless you count the several hours of flirting before I saw his true mean-spiritedness. All I could do is send him a message back saying "I'm sorry if my behaviour gave you the idea that I'm interested in you" but that only led to a longer, more aggressive reply so I just deleted it.

 

Just a similar situation I thought I'd share a female perspective on.

[somedude81]

This is really terribly mean-spirited. From what you have said, she never did anything bad to you--she just didn't feel the same way for you that you did for her. It's sad that you wish her harm for that.

First of all, the way she ended our friendship was really mean. I'm still mad at her for that.

 

She also knew that I liked her the entire time we knew each other and she still hung out with me. So she was using me for something.

Woman: "I'm not interested in dating anybody."

 

Translation: "I'm not interested in dating YOU."

Exactly.

 

We were extremely compatible and would have been a great couple. So for now, I'll believe her, that the reason we didn't date, was because she wanted to be single.

 

If she changes her mind and gets a BF, that would mean that she was lying to me the entire time, and just waiting to find somebody more attractive than me. And if she ends up with a taller guy, then she deserves all my venom.

 

My feelings for her are all over the place. I still think about her 24/7 and wish that she would contact me to tell me that she changed her mind, but I know that's not going to happen. My mind is always shifting from how much I miss her, to extreme rage towards her. For now, I want her to know the same pain I have.

sexual frustration can lead men to acts of violence;

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Sodini

 

Prostitution should be made legal and affordable to all beta and omega males like somedude81. It would leave only the Alphas to approach women, and the low value males wouldn't go crazy.

I'm very well aware of Sodini.

 

I'm not going to deny that I have violent thoughts sometimes. But all they've been are thoughts and I don't think they will ever take action. But, if I manage to go another twenty years without my situation changing, things might be different then.

 

BTW, getting sex from a hooker is nowhere as fulfilling as being in a real relationship. I need more than just sex. Though getting regular sex, might make me happier and could make it easier for me to get a real girl.

[somedude81]

Truth.

 

This conversation reminds me of this guy I met ten months ago or so through friends when a group of us went out to the bar. We hit it off and I would have definitely agreed to a date with him -- until we were driving home and he started ranting about how all women do is give mixed messages and how he's tired of being friendzoned etc etc. He tried to kiss me when he dropped me off but after listening to twenty minutes of how women are sluts and don't know how to make up their minds or see a good thing when it's in front of them -- I was completely turned off. I politely turned him down and thanked him for the ride.

 

Just last week, he sent me a facebook message (he deleted me from facebook a few months ago and then texted me to ask if I'd noticed or cared). The message was asking "Why don't you want to date me? I thought we got along. You're the same as the rest of them." I had not in ANY WAY given him the impression I wanted to date him unless you count the several hours of flirting before I saw his true mean-spiritedness. All I could do is send him a message back saying "I'm sorry if my behaviour gave you the idea that I'm interested in you" but that only led to a longer, more aggressive reply so I just deleted it.

 

Just a similar situation I thought I'd share a female perspective on.

What a loser he was. Yeah, he was too stupid to know that he was shooting himself in the foot the whole time.

 

I have never complained to girls I know about dating or anything related to relationships. I always try to be upbeat and fun, still doesn't make a fu*king difference though

[lululucy]

First of all, the way she ended our friendship was really mean. I'm still mad at her for that.

 

She also knew that I liked her the entire time we knew each other and she still hung out with me. So she was using me for something.

 

Exactly.

 

We were extremely compatible and would have been a great couple. So for now, I'll believe her, that the reason we didn't date, was because she wanted to be single.

 

If she changes her mind and gets a BF, that would mean that she was lying to me the entire time, and just waiting to find somebody more attractive than me. And if she ends up with a taller guy, then she deserves all my venom.

 

I understand this girl hurt you and I really empathise with you on that. Unreciprocated affection is one of the worst feelings and lord knows everyone on this forum has dealt with it. I understand completely why you feel so dismissive of her and so angry at her. But I'm sorry -- it does not mean that she was using you. The reason the two of you didn't date doesn't necessarily have to be that she wants to be single, just that she doesn't see the same compatibility you do.

 

This is no fault of hers, or yours, because there are many people I am friends with that I could never date though I can talk to them for hours and never tire of their company. I just hope the next time you are interested in someone, you will leave the second they say they aren't interested in dating (you or anyone) unless you can deal with the fact that perhaps they just want to be friends. Women really aren't that complicated, it is just important not to ignore the signals they are giving -- especially the red light ones.

 

 

And yeah, he is definitely an idiot. >< As i posted that, he sent me ANOTHER facebook message.

"Look seriously why the -explitive- are you ignoring me, I just want to have coffee."

[somedude81]

I understand this girl hurt you and I really empathise with you on that. Unreciprocated affection is one of the worst feelings and lord knows everyone on this forum has dealt with it. I understand completely why you feel so dismissive of her and so angry at her.

My entire life has been one unrequited story after another. And my feelings for her, are stronger than they have been for any one else. So the sadness and anger I feel towards her also contains my rage for being alone for so long and have so much trouble. It's not just from her.

 

I've also been very careful to not say anything mean to her. The angriest thing I've ever said to her, was calling her an immature little girl, who was afraid of conflict, because she didn't want to explain why she was ending our friendship. After knowing each other for two years, and spending so much time with her, I felt I deserved more than, "My reasons are my own and none of your business."

 

 

But I'm sorry -- it does not mean that she was using you. The reason the two of you didn't date doesn't necessarily have to be that she wants to be single, just that she doesn't see the same compatibility you do.

She's 22, never had a boyfriend, never dated. So I don't think she was lying when she said that she wasn't interested in dating. She was attracted to guys, but never took it anywhere beyond that.

 

As for her using me, maybe she was, maybe she wasn't. I doesn't really matter. I was always completely honest with her and it was obvious she wasn't doing the same.

 

This is no fault of hers, or yours, because there are many people I am friends with that I could never date though I can talk to them for hours and never tire of their company.

And that I don't understand.

 

I have never had a female friend that I didn't want to have sex with. As long as she's not fat, and decent looking, which 95% of women my age range are, she's good enough. And if I like her personality enough to be friends with her, then it's only natural for me to want sex. Spend enough time with her, and real feelings start to develop.

 

 

I just hope the next time you are interested in someone, you will leave the second they say they aren't interested in dating (you or anyone) unless you can deal with the fact that perhaps they just want to be friends. Women really aren't that complicated, it is just important not to ignore the signals they are giving -- especially the red light ones.

Yeah I know better than to stick around. I actually knew better with her. Before what happened last month, we actually stopped talking twice before. Then we ran into each other a few months later and I fell for her all over again. I really hope I don't see her again.

 

But yeah, when a girl tells me that she's not interested, I know that I just need to give up right away and move on. Girls don't fall for guys from spending a lot of time with them like men can do.

 

And yeah, he is definitely an idiot. >< As i posted that, he sent me ANOTHER facebook message.

"Look seriously why the -explitive- are you ignoring me, I just want to have coffee."

Send him a message.

 

"Your attitude is extremely unattractive. Do not contact me again."

 

That should wake him up. Sometimes men need honest feedback to figure things out.

 

I'd also block him in case he decides to get nasty.

[WhiteChocolate]

I have never had a female friend that I didn't want to have sex with. As long as she's not fat, and decent looking, which 95% of women my age range are, she's good enough. And if I like her personality enough to be friends with her, then it's only natural for me to want sex. Spend enough time with her, and real feelings start to develop.

Is this really true for most decent guys? This is what my friend says to me all the time.

 

I'd like to think this is true for most women as well. Certainly it is the way for me. Well, I'd be willing to date some but maybe others aren't so compatible. But something just seems to get in the way?

[cerridwen]

 

 

It's not as bad as it sounds. Since I have been in SD's position multiple times, I have some perspective. We all have our optimist and pessimist sides. The pessimist side just wishes the woman who caused us pain could feel some of the same heartbreak. But the optimist side knows there's lots of other women out there, and another rejection isn't a big deal. It's actions that count, not thoughts. Thoughts and emotions are hard and sometimes impossible to control. I have in mind wished some serious ill will towards some of the women who caused me the most heartbreak. But in real life, I have wished them all well...

 

I was glad to read the last sentence, jobaba.

The rest of it--and SD's disappointing "thoughts"--remind me of this:

 

“Watch your thoughts, for they become words.

Watch your words, for they become actions.

Watch your actions, for they become habits.

Watch your habits, for they become character.

Watch your character, for it becomes your destiny.”

[lululucy]

My entire life has been one unrequited story after another. And my feelings for her, are stronger than they have been for any one else. So the sadness and anger I feel towards her also contains my rage for being alone for so long and have so much trouble. It's not just from her.

 

That is completely understandable. I'm glad you recognise that this is an accumulation of awful feelings as well as the feelings for her -- the only thing I caution about is that some girls (at least myself and most of my close female friends) can sense this sort of anger and it's a big turn off. Pretty much on par to being called "a slut just like the rest of them"

 

She's 22, never had a boyfriend, never dated. So I don't think she was lying when she said that she wasn't interested in dating. She was attracted to guys, but never took it anywhere beyond that.

 

Yeah, I do know several girls like that actually. One had a boyfriend in high school that scarred her (not that she did more than kiss him) so badly that she hasn't allowed anyone else to get close since, and we're almost 24. She dated one really sweet, amazing guy last year but he kissed her on a second date (tame by most twenty-somethings standards) and she freaked, never spoke to him again and had to go to counselling. I agree it's a possibility that she just genuinely doesn't want to date ANYONE. She should've been more assertive of that with you if that was the case.

 

I have never had a female friend that I didn't want to have sex with. As long as she's not fat, and decent looking, which 95% of women my age range are, she's good enough. And if I like her personality enough to be friends with her, then it's only natural for me to want sex. Spend enough time with her, and real feelings start to develop.

 

I think I only have one male friend I have never had any sexual attraction for. I think it's different for women in that sense but I'm not exactly sure what that is. My really good male friends have all hit on me or propositioned me drunk or even asked me out, but I'm always clear about it if I'm not interested. I think a big problem lies in women either not wanting to hurt the man's feelings or liking the attention so they end up beating around the bush.

 

Send him a message.

 

"Your attitude is extremely unattractive. Do not contact me again."

 

That should wake him up. Sometimes men need honest feedback to figure things out.

 

I'd also block him in case he decides to get nasty.

 

That's a good idea, I think I'll do that now. Monday night drama on facebook, shesh.

[Wolf18]

Sorry to hear about your situation Somedude, had a very similar thing happen to me not long ago.

 

Please tell her to **** off. Women like that are psychic vampires. I bet you spend a lot of money and time on her too, money and time you can spend doing something more satisfying than running after poon that is impossible to catch.

 

Don't listen to the broads here that it's about your personality either, that girl you were talking about probably just took you for granted and didnt want to date you for reasons so stupid that I hope you never find out for sure.

 

Any woman whose never had a boyfriend by age 22 is either excruciatingly picky, delusional about her own social status, or has serious mental issues. Even the fattest, ugliest, most boring woman you can imagine has had a boyfriend by that point.

 

Learn your lesson. Your love is worth a lot more than what some frigid bitch thinks. Give your affection to someone who deserves it like your nephew, your dog, or your parents if women are going to take it for granted.

[ChessPieceFace]

OP is nothing more than a walking penis with testicles. If he had anything even resembling a neuron, he wouldn't have asked the question.

[Roger Mellie]

So honestly, what gives? Are the bitter, angry dudes here just seeing what their eyes want to see and tuning out reality, or was I somehow blessed with having friends and acquaintances who all happen to be within this magical 10% of men who sleep with 90% of the women?

 

Think globally and the answer to that is....not in the 10% maybe, but certainly in a privileged category. Consider the situation of bachelors in China

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/sep/02/china-village-of-bachelors

 

If I feel sorry for anybody it's those poor bastards. I suspect though that their discontentment and frustration is being exported to other parts of the world. With the internet as a handy agent.

[Els]

The situation of the bachelors in China is not relevant to the rest of the world. China has a one-child policy and its culture prizes males greatly, so parents actually kill their baby girls. Countless baby girls have perished this way, and as a consequence the new adult generation is faced with a unique issue: Men outnumber women greatly in China, far more so than in any other country in the world. It's another sad example of how male dominance came back to bite the very gender it favours in the ass.

[Roger Mellie]

The situation of the bachelors in China is not relevant to the rest of the world. China has a one-child policy and its culture prizes males greatly, so parents actually kill their baby girls. Countless baby girls have perished this way, and as a consequence the new adult generation is faced with a unique issue: Men outnumber women greatly in China, far more so than in any other country in the world. It's another sad example of how male dominance came back to bite the very gender it favours in the ass.

 

No expert on China, but you'd need to inhabit a cave to be unaware of the one-child policy there. Plus the points you raise are covered by the link I submitted.

 

A huge quantity of single males experiencing a major source of frustration and unrest, in a country with rapidly increasing wealth is relevant globally. On a very basic level, such a situation helps spread STDs and HIV as desperate, uneducated villagers roam to urban areas to visit prostitutes.

[GoodOnPaper]

I have never had a female friend that I didn't want to have sex with . . . . if I like her personality enough to be friends with her, then it's only natural for me to want sex. Spend enough time with her, and real feelings start to develop.

 

Is this really true for most decent guys? This is what my friend says to me all the time.

 

I don't know about most decent guys, but I can second somedude's mindset about opposite-sex friendship and sexual/romantic feelings being strongly intertwined. I can't imagine it any other way. Of course you have to account for one's definition of "friendship" -- by that I mean someone I consider close enough that I feel comfortable revealing some of my real self that I wouldn't necessarily to most work colleagues or others I hang out with socially. Also, personality type comes into play -- I'm introverted enough that I don't feel comfortable having a lot of "close" friends. So if I am motivated enough to want to spend hours and hours talking and being with someone of the opposite sex, sexual/romantic feelings are going to naturally develop. There is no way I could ever friendzone someone because there is no way I could be a truly close friend with a woman without wanting more.

 

I think of this as the Friends-First Paradox. Women say they want that to happen, but instead this always seems to play out:

 

This is no fault of hers, or yours, because there are many people I am friends with that I could never date though I can talk to them for hours and never tire of their company.

 

Instead you have to wow a woman within the first 10 minutes of meeting her, and I don't think a lot of us "average" guys have that in us.

[dasein]

I have always had purely platonic friendships with attractive women whom I don't want to have sex with, or rather, it isn't an issue or element in the friendship though I find them sexually attractive, so my experience is different from some other posters here.

[Els]

No expert on China, but you'd need to inhabit a cave to be unaware of the one-child policy there. Plus the points you raise are covered by the link I submitted.

 

A huge quantity of single males experiencing a major source of frustration and unrest, in a country with rapidly increasing wealth is relevant globally. On a very basic level, such a situation helps spread STDs and HIV as desperate, uneducated villagers roam to urban areas to visit prostitutes.

 

I am not saying that the situation there does not affect the rest of the world.

 

I am saying that the situation there is not relevant as an example to prove the 'a small percentage of top males get women, the others rot in loneliness' theory. The males there are not getting screwed over because it's universally difficult to get women, they are getting screwed over because of a combination of bad policy and male-superiority ethics that doesn't exist in most countries in which most of the male posters here abide.

[lululucy]

I think of this as the Friends-First Paradox. Women say they want that to happen, but instead this always seems to play out:

 

Instead you have to wow a woman within the first 10 minutes of meeting her, and I don't think a lot of us "average" guys have that in us.

 

 

That's just being self-defeating. Most of my male friends I've known either from childhood or met just after I graduated high school, many of them when I or they were dating someone else. I was quasi-friends with my ex for months before dating him, he didn't have to -wow- me. The compatibility was there. The only friends I've had that have developed, that I know of anyway, real feelings for me (not just sexual ones) have been ones with not a lot of other friends, so perhaps that's really the common denominator.

[jobaba]

I was glad to read the last sentence, jobaba.

The rest of it--and SD's disappointing "thoughts"--remind me of this:

 

“Watch your thoughts, for they become words.

Watch your words, for they become actions.

Watch your actions, for they become habits.

Watch your habits, for they become character.

Watch your character, for it becomes your destiny.”

 

I can give you a specific example. I fell for a woman in my workplace and she basically rejected me because I wasn't physically attractive enough. Well. Guys in the office talk about women. That's a given. And a bunch of guys had some not so kind, unprovoked comments on her physical appearance. And at least one guy went as far as to say she looks like a skank who would get with any guy in the office. Except me, of course.

 

Man. Part of me wanted nothing better than to tell her all of that and make her feel as low and unattractive as me. But, I didn't...

[LexiB]

Truth.

 

This conversation reminds me of this guy I met ten months ago or so through friends when a group of us went out to the bar. We hit it off and I would have definitely agreed to a date with him -- until we were driving home and he started ranting about how all women do is give mixed messages and how he's tired of being friendzoned etc etc. He tried to kiss me when he dropped me off but after listening to twenty minutes of how women are sluts and don't know how to make up their minds or see a good thing when it's in front of them -- I was completely turned off. I politely turned him down and thanked him for the ride.

 

Just last week, he sent me a facebook message (he deleted me from facebook a few months ago and then texted me to ask if I'd noticed or cared). The message was asking "Why don't you want to date me? I thought we got along. You're the same as the rest of them." I had not in ANY WAY given him the impression I wanted to date him unless you count the several hours of flirting before I saw his true mean-spiritedness.

 

All I could do is send him a message back saying "I'm sorry if my behaviour gave you the idea that I'm interested in you"

 

 

Why did you lie to him? I get why you don't want to date him but you actually did him a huge disservice by not pointing out that he actually *had* a chance with you - a good one - but his psycho rant during the ride home killed it.

 

It's an opportunity for him to see HIS role in his own pathetic dating life.

Edited December 6, 2011 by LexiB

[lululucy]

Why did you lie to him? I get why you don't want to date him but you actually did him a huge disservice by not pointing out that he actually *had* a chance with you - a good one - but his psycho rant during the ride home killed it.

 

It's an opportunity for him to see HIS role in his own pathetic dating life.

 

That's a really good point. I'll have to try and remember to do that if this sort of thing happens again (god I hope it won't, so tired of dramatics!). Thank you for pointing that out!

[Untouchable_Fire]

So honestly, what gives? Are the bitter, angry dudes here just seeing what their eyes want to see and tuning out reality, or was I somehow blessed with having friends and acquaintances who all happen to be within this magical 10% of men who sleep with 90% of the women?

 

... Framing the whole question in these terms is silly. It's like stepping in crap looking at your shoe.... smelling it... tasting it... feeling it... and still wondering if you had stepped in crap. What's wrong with you?

 

OF COURSE there are a large number of guys out there who can't get a date. Part of that is explained by women's proclivity to date older men. So younger women are going after older men. Indeed the chronically single women you see are typically older themselves as they are out-competed by younger women.

 

So, lets be realistic. What is the single most important indicator as to whether a man will be able to date or not. Confidence... So what you are really asking is are there really so many guys out there who have no confidence? Right?

 

For women the absolute top factor in finding a guy... is unfortunately physical appearance. This is why women use plastic surgery at 5 times the rate of men.

 

Personally, I would LOVE to know where all the obese wolf ugly women are that can't get dates. I usually see them running around with a litter of kids... but no man in sight.