ageofaquarius Posted December 3, 2011 Posted December 3, 2011 I am fascinated by the cultural differences towards infidelity. Europeans seem to take it in stride...at the funeral of the French Prime Minister Francois Mitterand, his wife stood next to his mistress and no one cared. The American President Bill Clinton, on the other hand, was impeached for oral sex. So my question is this: I know that for some people, sexual infidelity is an abosolute deal breaker and for others it is not. Can people elaborate on their feelings about this? For me, it is not a deal breaker because the emotional aspects (to me) are far more important than the physical ones, but I know people have very strong opinions on all sides and I would like to hear them!
Richard Friedman Posted December 3, 2011 Posted December 3, 2011 And it's because of that kind of attitude towards family/marriage that europeans stand to be overrun by arabs in a couple decades. France is 5-10% muslim, uk a a bitless, but these groups breed like rabbits while the white europeans just dont settle down. Scoff all you want at family values, but i guess these europeans were just too 'enlightened' for their own good. 1
Author ageofaquarius Posted December 3, 2011 Author Posted December 3, 2011 Seriously?? What a racist thing to say. What I am interested in is the difference between other culture's views of extramarital sex and Americans's view. We, Americans, just seem to be so much more destructive about it
Severely Unamused Posted December 3, 2011 Posted December 3, 2011 I'm rather unsure about that generalisation of Europeans (although my experiences in France were limited to a couple of months near Paris' CBD. Maybe you have more experience.). The major difference in attitude that I have observed is that Euros consider this sort of stuff to be personal, private and irrelavent to a politician's political prowess. That doesn't mean that they are all incredibly blasé about extramarital sex. Although, all of the Yanks that I know don't really have any interest in Obama's sex life...no doubt that he is a tiger in the bedroom. Bill Clinton's impeachment had more to do with his perjury and obstruction of justice (and the sexual harassment charge didn't help) rather than him simply getting a hummer. As for me, I am currently living in New Zealand. Generally speaking, I would say that our country's attitude towards infidelity is similar to the American way of thinking. Although, there is a BDSM and swingers club in Auckland City. I don't know about the South Island. I personally would have no qualms with my stbxH getting romantically and emotionally involved with other women. I also know that he has little interest in "f*cking". If sex was involved, it would fall into the "making love" area. So I would have to take into consideration the emotional aspects of his extramarital relationships.
sadcalifornian Posted December 3, 2011 Posted December 3, 2011 The aversion to the spouse's infidelity is based on a primal instinct. So, if any society seems tolerant of it, that means infidelity is so rampant there that both spouses are likely cheating or have cheated in the past. In other words, they are in an quasi-open marriage relationship as its social norm. Is it healthy? I for one don't think so.
KathyM Posted December 3, 2011 Posted December 3, 2011 From my own perspective, as a Christian American who takes my faith very seriously, I have adopted the Bible's teachings that infidelity breaks the covenant and the bond that is formed when a man and woman marry. It is the only thing, according to God's laws, that is grounds for divorce. I take that viewpoint as well, and would not tolerate infidelity in my marriage. On a personal level, I consider the act of sex to be something very special, to be shared only with your spouse. The most intimate of acts, and one that demonstrates the love you have for your spouse. It's a oneness, and a joining of not only the body, but the mind and spirit. Something that is sacred, to be shared between husband and wife. For a spouse to be breaching that bond by giving of himself to someone else outside the marriage is the ultimate act of disrespect, betrayal, and separation. Something that would leave a permanent scar, and the relationship could never be as truly special ever again. My husband is European, as are many of our former and current friends. Although my husband has adopted my more conservative attitude towards infidelity, most of our European friends have a much more liberal attitude towards infidelity. Most of them have either not bothered to get married at all, or they have been unfaithful to their wives, since they consider fidelity not an important thing in a marriage or relationship to maintain. Not surprisingly, all of those European friends are now divorced who were once married, except for the one who is a active Christian who would never betray his wife. He stayed married to her and faithful to her until the day she died. He is now married to another wonderful Christian woman, and they have a great marriage. People who have no interest in being faithful should not bother getting married. Infidelity destroys the bond, the closeness and the trust that is so important to maintain in a marriage.
Arabella Posted December 3, 2011 Posted December 3, 2011 I have no idea where you get all these generalizations about Europeans from. Just because ONE woman chose to act in such a way, doesn't mean most Europeans would. I was born and raised in Europe, and I have ended relationships over cheating in the past. Even now, 7 years after I moved to the States, my views aren't any different than they were in Europe. If my fiance cheated on me, before or after marriage, that would be the end of our relationship. Incidentally, I am also an atheist. Contrary to popular belief, conservative family values are not necessarily tied to religion... From my experience growing up, most of my friends and family shared the same perspectives on infidelity, regardless of their religious beliefs.
norajane Posted December 3, 2011 Posted December 3, 2011 I am fascinated by the cultural differences towards infidelity. Europeans seem to take it in stride...at the funeral of the French Prime Minister Francois Mitterand, his wife stood next to his mistress and no one cared. The American President Bill Clinton, on the other hand, was impeached for oral sex. So my question is this: I know that for some people, sexual infidelity is an abosolute deal breaker and for others it is not. Can people elaborate on their feelings about this? For me, it is not a deal breaker because the emotional aspects (to me) are far more important than the physical ones, but I know people have very strong opinions on all sides and I would like to hear them! I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Infidelity and affairs are not a deal breaker for you because the emotional aspects (of what? the relationship? the affair?) are far more important than the physical ones (of what? the relationship or the affair?). Do you mean to say that you wouldn't care if your partner had an affair because an affair is only physical and not emotional? Or because the love you and your partner have for each other is more important than the sex your partner is having with other people? To answer your question, my family is from Europe and infidelity and affairs are not tolerated in our culture or country.
sadcalifornian Posted December 3, 2011 Posted December 3, 2011 I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Infidelity and affairs are not a deal breaker for you because the emotional aspects (of what? the relationship? the affair?) are far more important than the physical ones (of what? the relationship or the affair?). Do you mean to say that you wouldn't care if your partner had an affair because an affair is only physical and not emotional? Or because the love you and your partner have for each other is more important than the sex your partner is having with other people? To answer your question, my family is from Europe and infidelity and affairs are not tolerated in our culture or country. The OP's post has two issues mixed up in it. One is the cultural difference in regards to affair in general. And, the other is EA vs. PA issue. OP states that to him PA wouldn't be a deal breaker as he values emotional aspect more importantly. Well, it seems he never dealt with his spouse's affair, and he is just analyzing the whole issue with his imagination of what and how he would feel if such does happen to him. One thing he does not know is until faced with the spouse's affair, he would not know how his emotion would react. All the animated insight as to what he thinks gets tossed away meaningless. I do understand his logic that the emotional aspect of A is devastating, but I have a feeling he wouldn't be so cool about PA if he faces one in his own life. Besides, EA and PA aren't always clear cut in real life as he may think. Most of times, they are intertwined in various degrees of each component.
SoMovinOn Posted December 3, 2011 Posted December 3, 2011 I've been involved in all manner of relationships, most of them non-exclusive. It was only my current M where we agreed to commitment, monogamy and exclusivity. I found it to be initially very devastating when that agreement was broken. It wasn't the sex that made it that way, but everything else - the lies, the deceit, the destruction of trust, and, perhaps most of all that she did it all so willfully and maliciously. A very different situation from my first M, where my W and my GF we often friends who also spent time together, or the three of us all lived together. I don't suppose it matters so much what society thinks of it. Even if a given society is rather accepting of EMR's, it still boils down to whatever the agreement is between any given couple - it can only be acceptable, devastating, or somewhere in between, to them.
Severely Unamused Posted December 3, 2011 Posted December 3, 2011 (edited) Even if a given society is rather accepting of EMR's, it still boils down to whatever the agreement is between any given couple - it can only be acceptable, devastating, or somewhere in between, to them. Well said. My stbxH's one and only extramarital relationship still ended up breaching pretty much all of the relationship boundaries that we had agreed to. Cheating and affairs are (to use lingo that is especially popular on the OM/OW board) rarely as black and white as simple genital intersections. That's only scratching the surface. Besides, EA and PA aren't always clear cut in real life as he may think. Most of times, they are intertwined in various degrees of each component. Very true. As an example, I've seen swingers that were completely okay with their SO having sex with others. But if feelings do end up developing...there's a complete 180 in their personalities. Edited December 3, 2011 by Severely Unamused
norajane Posted December 3, 2011 Posted December 3, 2011 No, he was impeached for high crimes and misdemeanors, including giving false testimony in a civil case, something for which he lost his law license in Arkansas for five years. Yep, we don't impeach Presidents for blowjobs, even by employees. And if you are the Secret Service, you even aide and abet cheating - in the name of safety - as they did for Kennedy. Jackie stood by her man, at least in public. In private, we don't know how well she tolerated it. Just like with the Mitterands.
quankanne Posted December 3, 2011 Posted December 3, 2011 is it a dealbreaker for me? Yes. Because I'm possessive like that, and pride tells me that if I'm not good enough to be faithful to, then he's not good enough to keep around! This doesn't come from my staunch Mexican-Catholic background, but from some very determined ideas about my self-worth. Same applies if I were to cheat on my husband: It would be a deal-breaker, because I could not live with myself doing that to someone I purport to "love" ... good rule of thumb is that when you pledge yourself to someone in a relationship, then that relationship boils down to the two of you. Everything else is just playing around.
Mr_Confused Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 You can debate Europeans versus Americans - there are cultural differences and different degrees of tolerance/acceptance of extramarital sex. But we are similar in more ways than different. If those similarities are too close to spur on a healthy debate simple ask the same question and compare Americans to Asian cultures where concubines are a norm. You really don't need any more evidence than the rate of marriages that experience an affair and the % of marriages that end in divorce to wonder....are half of Americans simply non-committal and morally inept OR have we have we defined the rules that govern a marriage in such a way that success is about as predictable as calling a coin toss? When it's all said and done - U.S. marriages are failing at an alarming rate. While it would certainly be morally "better"....if all WS's did was divorce rather than have an affair - it's largely immaterial relative to the goal of a "healthy marriage" since the net is the marriage is broken. A few things come to mind, some good - some bad, that have changed the landscape of the world we live in and contribute to the increased failure of marriage in the U.S.: 1. Life expectancy - it's one thing to stayed married till death do you part when you live on average to 40 year versus 80. Just math.... 2. Availability - Ashley Madison, on-line emotional affairs, escorts, business travel, etc. The is just more exposure and more opportunity than ever before. 3. Women's rights - women are no longer "usually" at home, subordinate, etc.. Women are liberated, empowered, and basically don't have to put it with the BS. Not saying cheating is the answer....but they aren't under the same subordinate constraints that once existed (thankfully!). 4. The nucleus of "family" has changed (arguably deteriorated). Common today, both parents work, spare time to gather as a family has diminished, work hours have increased, people are blackberry-ing/and working around the clock, running errands, dividing and conquering to get through hectic days. A generation and a half ago, dad went to work to come home to a warm meal the family enjoyed together and then watched a family oriented show on a black and whit Tv, or gathered around the radio for the same. The world has changed, good or bad, it just has.
standtall Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 Women, in most cases, forgive extramarital sex since most men can have sex without emotional attachments. Just because a man is having sex outside their marriage doesn't mean that they love their AP. Men, in most cases, do not forgive extramarital sex because most women cannot have sex without emotional attachments. If a woman is having sex outside their marriage it is assumed that she is in love with her AP. Their are no absolutes, so your results may vary.
sadcalifornian Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 Women, in most cases, forgive extramarital sex since most men can have sex without emotional attachments. Just because a man is having sex outside their marriage doesn't mean that they love their AP. Men, in most cases, do not forgive extramarital sex because most women cannot have sex without emotional attachments. If a woman is having sex outside their marriage it is assumed that she is in love with her AP. Their are no absolutes, so your results may vary. I would be very careful with this line of thinking. Emotional or not, women these days are not as forgiving of A as they used to. I speculate that women at older age group are actually more likely to seek D after finding H's A(EA or PA) than men.
Breezy Trousers Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 I am fascinated by the cultural differences towards infidelity. Europeans seem to take it in stride...at the funeral of the French Prime Minister Francois Mitterand, his wife stood next to his mistress and no one cared. The American President Bill Clinton, on the other hand, was impeached for oral sex. So my question is this: I know that for some people, sexual infidelity is an abosolute deal breaker and for others it is not. Can people elaborate on their feelings about this? For me, it is not a deal breaker because the emotional aspects (to me) are far more important than the physical ones, but I know people have very strong opinions on all sides and I would like to hear them! I'm not a fan of infidelity -- I think it's unskillful in the end -- but I also try to put it in context. So I guess it's not a deal breaker for me. Infidelity occurred in my marriage but it hasn't defined my entire marriage. Day-to-day good will has defined my marriage over the past 23 years ... Historians consider FDR to be one of the greatest presidents in U.S. history but that man hardly kept his zipper up, even when paralyzed. The philandering didn't affect his ability to shepherd the U.S. through crisis. Conservatives seem to get more upset with personal "sins" (infidelity) than with social "sins" (warfare). Liberals tend to get more upset with social sins than with personal sins. We can't really know how the French nation felt about the Mitterand situation anymore than we can know how Madame Mitterand felt about it. Just because something is acknowledged doesn't mean it is embraced. Still, I thought it was a touching and kind gesture. Others would disagree. That's the way the world rolls.
LoveTKO Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 I am fascinated by the cultural differences towards infidelity. Europeans seem to take it in stride...at the funeral of the French Prime Minister Francois Mitterand, his wife stood next to his mistress and no one cared. The American President Bill Clinton, on the other hand, was impeached for oral sex. ! ????? He was impeached for lying under oath, not for having oral sex. Get your facts straight. Moreover, as a person in a capacity as a high ranking government official, he was having sexual relations with a subordinate in a government office on "company time". Any CEO/CFO/COO caught receiving a blow job on company time with a subordinate would have been fired on the spot! It doesn't matter that you got caught or that someone ratted you out, but what matters is that if you want to have an affair then do it with someone who doesn't work for you and and go to some motel after work hours.
Breezy Trousers Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 ????? He was impeached for lying under oath, not for having oral sex. Get your facts straight. Moreover, as a person in a capacity as a high ranking government official, he was having sexual relations with a subordinate in a government office on "company time". Any CEO/CFO/COO caught receiving a blow job on company time with a subordinate would have been fired on the spot! It doesn't matter that you got caught or that someone ratted you out, but what matters is that if you want to have an affair then do it with someone who doesn't work for you and and go to some motel after work hours. Yes, TKO, I see your point, but didn't Clinton lie in response to inquiry into his sexual behavior? And I'm not sure Clinton could be characterized as having been caught, literally with his pants down, in the act of receiving a blow job from a subordinate on company time. I think he was caught in quite another fashion. That's true for the majority of other CEO/CFO/COO's. They often do get away with it. If they get caught, they often lie. While I'm not condoning Clinton's behavior, we can hardly pretend it is unusual --- it's certainly no different from Gingrich, who, while leading the investigation into Clinton, was heavily involved in his own infidelity with a considerably younger woman of subordinate status ---- someone he eventually left his second wife for.
Breezy Trousers Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 If my fiance cheated on me, before or after marriage, that would be the end of our relationship. I respect all that you said, Arabella, but have to add: Fact is, no one knows how they will deal with infidelity until they are actually in the experience. So many circumstances affect the final decision. Many on LS can attest to thinking the same as you until they actually found themselves in the experience.
standtall Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 I would be very careful with this line of thinking. Emotional or not, women these days are not as forgiving of A as they used to. I speculate that women at older age group are actually more likely to seek D after finding H's A(EA or PA) than men. It is my experience, and that of my circle of acquaintances, that women still forgive and men do not.
LoveTKO Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 Yes, TKO, I see your point, but didn't Clinton lie in response to inquiry into his sexual behavior? And I'm not sure Clinton could be characterized as having been caught, literally with his pants down, in the act of receiving a blow job from a subordinate on company time. I think he was caught in quite another fashion. That's true for the majority of other CEO/CFO/COO's. They often do get away with it. If they get caught, they often lie. While I'm not condoning Clinton's behavior, we can hardly pretend it is unusual --- it's certainly no different from Gingrich, who, while leading the investigation into Clinton, was heavily involved in his own infidelity with a considerably younger woman of subordinate status ---- someone he eventually left his second wife for. Okay...here we go: 1. Yes, he lied in response to his sexual behavior, but it was done under oath relating to an ongoing investigation. We live in a nation of laws (constitutional Republic) and what Clinton did (obstruction of justice) is a serious matter. It sent Martha Stewart to jail who probably wouldn't have spent a day in jail based on her crime, but it was her obstruction of justice that put her away. Clinton loses based on your premise. 2. Clinton's behavior not unusual? Maybe, but we don't justify illegal actions in our society by pointing at others who break the law. That's like being pulled over by a cop for speeding and arguing, "why don't you pull those cars over going past us?...they're going way faster than I was". 3. To the best of my knowledge, Newt Gingrich never cheated with a co-worker or subordinate while on company time in a tax payer funded dwelling. He did it on his own time. He never lied under oath during an investigation. Unethical an immoral is not synonymous with illegal.
standtall Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 We live in a nation of laws (constitutional Republic) and what Clinton did (obstruction of justice) is a serious matter. It sent Martha Stewart to jail who probably wouldn't have spent a day in jail based on her crime, but it was her obstruction of justice that put her away. Clinton loses based on your premise. What right did any congressional panel, or whatever the name of body that was convened, have in asking a grown man whether or not he got a BJ from another consenting adult other than his wife. It is between him, his wife and her..he should have never been questioned in the first place. Besides, with all of those rats down there it is like the pot calling the kettle black. And for SC, Hillary did forgive him.
LoveTKO Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 What right did any congressional panel, or whatever the name of body that was convened, have in asking a grown man whether or not he got a BJ from another consenting adult other than his wife. It is between him, his wife and her..he should have never been questioned in the first place. Besides, with all of those rats down there it is like the pot calling the kettle black. And for SC, Hillary did forgive him. What right??? Hello?....the Monica Lewinsky scandal was predicated on the Paula Jones lawsuit, that trailer park looking lady that Clinton was apparently fornicating with. Pauls Jones's lawyers subpoenaed Lewinsky in order to uncover a pattern. This whole thing was a bona fide criminal investigation, and not some congressional probe just to piss Clinton off. Stick with the facts please. Clinton is the ultimate pimp in my book! Think about it: people are quick to excoriate Newt Gingrich and other "conservatives" for sexual transgressions, but Clinton has the support of so many women, even feminists, who are so eager to give him a free pass under the guise of this "it's between him an his wife" idea. Women love this man with testosterone coursing through his veins, eager to abuse his power and status in order to get laid.....but women still love him! He is a pimp!!!
Breezy Trousers Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 Okay...here we go: 1. Yes, he lied in response to his sexual behavior, but it was done under oath relating to an ongoing investigation. We live in a nation of laws (constitutional Republic) and what Clinton did (obstruction of justice) is a serious matter. It sent Martha Stewart to jail who probably wouldn't have spent a day in jail based on her crime, but it was her obstruction of justice that put her away. Clinton loses based on your premise. 2. Clinton's behavior not unusual? Maybe, but we don't justify illegal actions in our society by pointing at others who break the law. That's like being pulled over by a cop for speeding and arguing, "why don't you pull those cars over going past us?...they're going way faster than I was". 3. To the best of my knowledge, Newt Gingrich never cheated with a co-worker or subordinate while on company time in a tax payer funded dwelling. He did it on his own time. He never lied under oath during an investigation. Unethical an immoral is not synonymous with illegal. Okay, TKO, brief reply, and then I'm dropping this. We disagree and that's okay. This is unlikely to change with increased tit-for-tat rhetoric, but it will change the trajectory of this thread. Although you used the word "legal" in a specific sense, the truth is our "morality" in this society is highly selective. No matter what you say, the politics of Washington in the Clinton era, as they are today, were about gaining power at any cost. "Scandal" is often a tool used in service of that goal. Also, you can't know that Gingrich didn't conduct his affair while on company time with a staffer. Fact is, nearly all work affairs are conducted during and around company hours -- and most affair partners lie. Don't believe me? Read the hundreds of threads here.
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