SoMovinOn Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 For the record, I'm speaking in general. I respect the fact that there are always exceptions to every rule and by no means belittling anyone's relationship Exceptions would indicate most A's would fall into your description. The truth is, *some* do. Likely *most* don't, as the decision to have an A comes later.
Author flutterbykiss Posted December 4, 2011 Author Posted December 4, 2011 Someone posted this in another thread and gave me permission to repeat it here: "I have learned that a person cannot get to truly know you for the "real" person you are while they are committed emotionally to someone else. As a matter of fact, their judgements of you are nothing more than projections of their own feelings of frustration or confusion about their current situation. How can you build a relationship on that? Then add in the sneaking around and accepting crumbs on top of it? It makes not take the person seriously. How can you right? You can't because they are viewing you through a skewed lense because they have a safety net" Big thanks to this poster for putting in words what I couldn't.
Mr_Confused Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 what makes these debates so lively is that when you are a generic question about anything involving people there is no answer that applies to all. An earlier poster tried to break it out by gender - but that won't do it either. It's only compounded by our singular experience and how it clouds our ability to see this objectively. An affair, regardless of how you fit into it, it a "life event" and it leaves you with a lot of bias - one way or the other. For me, I fell in love, I am not emotionally connected to my wife, my wife and I don't have sex, cuddle, touch, kiss, etc.. Our marriage is broken at it's core, but we've remained together mostly for our child, but it is also comfortable, convenient, we are friends, and it's advantageous financially. She know of the affair and could just as easily leave. Given my experience - I can imagine someone in a loving and healthy relationship having an affair. I'm not a serial cheater, I don't want more than on woman, I wasn't having sex or intimacy or closeness at home and found someone that wanted that from and with me. I see affairs through my lens, and it's hard to understand when someone risks a good marriage solely for sex, especially with little concern as to who it is they are sleeping with. I can't understand risking love and a healthy marriage solely for sex....but I guess it happens.
Toodamnpragmatic Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 what makes these debates so lively is that when you are a generic question about anything involving people there is no answer that applies to all. An earlier poster tried to break it out by gender - but that won't do it either. It's only compounded by our singular experience and how it clouds our ability to see this objectively. An affair, regardless of how you fit into it, it a "life event" and it leaves you with a lot of bias - one way or the other. For me, I fell in love, I am not emotionally connected to my wife, my wife and I don't have sex, cuddle, touch, kiss, etc.. Our marriage is broken at it's core, but we've remained together mostly for our child, but it is also comfortable, convenient, we are friends, and it's advantageous financially. She know of the affair and could just as easily leave. Given my experience - I can imagine someone in a loving and healthy relationship having an affair. I'm not a serial cheater, I don't want more than on woman, I wasn't having sex or intimacy or closeness at home and found someone that wanted that from and with me. I see affairs through my lens, and it's hard to understand when someone risks a good marriage solely for sex, especially with little concern as to who it is they are sleeping with. I can't understand risking love and a healthy marriage solely for sex....but I guess it happens. I take it you meant can't???? I'm the same.... Why would someone in a happy sexual marriage cheat. I have had countless posts and threads stating only serial cheaters and narcissists fall into that category.
Severely Unamused Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 Why would someone in a happy sexual marriage cheat. Irrationality.
sayitasitis Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 If an MM or MW is shopping online for an AP, does it mean he/she is less discriminate and will cheat with those that fall prey? Since that's usually a playground for cheaters, making it a little easier than in real life.
Spark1111 Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 Yes. I phrased that badly. I never meant that just any old person would do but I can see that what I wrote conveyed that. Apologies. What I was trying to ask is: Is the initial attraction to the OM/OW in the relief and joy of filling the 'void' that has been neglected in their M? ie, an appreciation of what the OM/OW does for them rather than a genuine appreciation of the OM/OW themselves, as a human being. I find it hard to believe that the CS (who is effectively using the OM/OW to fill the gaps in their own life) would put someone they truly admired and respected and appreciated in the position of being 'the bit on the side'. Furthermore, would the CS present themselves in the negative light of an unfaithful partner to someone whose opinion they truly valued? About the bolded, I think yes. There is huge projection in an affair: I'll be who you need me to be; you be who I need you to be. It's a wondeful fantasy lived in a bubble of secrecy. If there was genuine appreciation for each other, why would the MP ask the AP to sneak around, participate in the deception, wait alone for crumbs of time and stolen moments? And, inversely, why would the AP help enable the MP to betray their spouse, their reputation, their legacy? Think on this. Love is just one of many justifications each use to sustain the affair, which so often causes unbelievable pain to all eventually.
Breezy Trousers Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 Someone posted this in another thread and gave me permission to repeat it here: "I have learned that a person cannot get to truly know you for the "real" person you are while they are committed emotionally to someone else. As a matter of fact, their judgements of you are nothing more than projections of their own feelings of frustration or confusion about their current situation. How can you build a relationship on that? Then add in the sneaking around and accepting crumbs on top of it? It makes not take the person seriously. How can you right? You can't because they are viewing you through a skewed lense because they have a safety net" Big thanks to this poster for putting in words what I couldn't. What an insightful post! Thanks for sharing that.
Breezy Trousers Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 Given my experience - I can imagine someone in a loving and healthy relationship having an affair. I'm not a serial cheater, I don't want more than on woman, I wasn't having sex or intimacy or closeness at home and found someone that wanted that from and with me. I see affairs through my lens, and it's hard to understand when someone risks a good marriage solely for sex, especially with little concern as to who it is they are sleeping with. I can't understand risking love and a healthy marriage solely for sex....but I guess it happens. Prior to 2008, I would have completely agreed with this. Not anymore. I've learned that the bolded comment is just another false cultural assumption about infidelity. I had to dismiss that assumption after encountering direct experience to the contrary. In 2008, I was quite happily married but tempted to cross lines for the first time in my long-term marriage. I struggled with that inappropriate attraction for two long years. Perhaps it was my love for my husband which prevented me from crossing the line? Perhaps, if I was unhappy in my marriage, I would have more easily justified crossing the line? To that degree, there is truth to what you wrote. However, bottom line was, I struggled. My lust was a reflection of myself, not of my husband or my marriage. I loved the man's attention. I didn't know the man at all, really. As it turned out, the situation was just a teaching device -- a means to an end. It provided the vehicle for learning things I was completely unaware of before the experience began. However, at the time, I told myself a fanciful story of how the connection was "meant to be." lol That story allowed me to view my love of flattery and intrigue through a prism of virtue. IMO, many affairs arise out of convenient opportunity and mutual feeding, not out of genuine love and respect. 1
ThinkBelieve Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 However I do not agree that most AP's cheat based on availability. I wouldn't have cheated with just anyone and not just anyone would have been able to fill the void that was missing. Flutterbykiss, You did ask for different perspectives?... I acknowledge and respect that most people here are betrayed spouses, but I can't help think each response is quite individualized. I can only recount my experience and say for myself, I was VERY selective. I realize I sound cliched when I say I wasn't looking for an affair. For me, it was all about the person I had the affair with. He is extraordinary. I did need to feel an emotional connection before it could become physical. I related to him on so many levels, many similarities, so I did feel a very strong connection. Although he is quite physically attractive, he also has a beautiful mind, and that is why I feel emotionally in synergy with him. And I do believe I love him. In contrast, i do sympathize with the BSs. My actions have nothing to do with the quality of my spouse, as a person. It is not a personal problem with the spouse. However, it is a huge symptom that there is something very wrong and irreparably broken in the marriage. In my marriage, after much examination and discussion with my spouse, we are realizing fixing it may be futile. My spouse and I are no longer emotionally or physical connected and we are aware of that fact.
Spark1111 Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 Someone posted this in another thread and gave me permission to repeat it here: "I have learned that a person cannot get to truly know you for the "real" person you are while they are committed emotionally to someone else. As a matter of fact, their judgements of you are nothing more than projections of their own feelings of frustration or confusion about their current situation. How can you build a relationship on that? Then add in the sneaking around and accepting crumbs on top of it? It makes not take the person seriously. How can you right? You can't because they are viewing you through a skewed lense because they have a safety net" Big thanks to this poster for putting in words what I couldn't. Wonderful quote! I believe the inverse is also true: The WS, waaaay before he crashes into a suitable AP, has projected all his frustrations and judgements on the BS and sees only what they choose to see. When I decided to finally give R a chance with my H, both he and I were amazed at all he had stopped seeing in me and our life. Why? It did not fit his unhappy projection of it.
NoIDidn't Posted December 7, 2011 Posted December 7, 2011 Exceptions would indicate most A's would fall into your description. The truth is, *some* do. Likely *most* don't, as the decision to have an A comes later. The stats disagree with you. Most A's fall into what the OP stated, as most marriages don't end due to affairs. The first willing partner will usually do for someone that has decided to cheat based on their own insecurities and selfishness. A person can't decide that because they feel one way that means the majority feel the same as they do. As I said, the stats don't bear that out.
beenburned Posted December 7, 2011 Posted December 7, 2011 BreezyTrousers, Thank you for such an honest post! Like Sparky's post said it is all about the perception of the WS at that point in time. During the affair, thoughts are slanted to make the OP and the affair justifidied in the mind of the cheating spouse. After the affair, you start to see your spouse and your marriage in a totally different way.(especially if the BS kicked the WS out and started divorce procedeings) I agree that it takes many steps by both people before it turns into a full blown affair. It always makes me mad to hear cheaters say "it just happened". TB, Even if your marriage is bad, and you don't love your spouse any more, why did you think having an affair was a healthy solution to your problem? It only serves to compound the pain and misery for everyone involved.
beenburned Posted December 7, 2011 Posted December 7, 2011 TB, Unless you both can provide a united friendly front for the kids, this will not work. However, when one or both spouses have affair partners, there is usually much hostility and resentments that have to be buried on a daily basis. In the long run, one or the other explodes, unable to keep up the charade. I know these are tough times, as my grown daughter is struggling financially while divorcing her LT cheating spouse.
frozensprouts Posted December 7, 2011 Posted December 7, 2011 ( i can't speak for anyone else, only myself...but for what it is worth, here is my experience) I asked my husband about this the other night. I found out some things I hadn't been aware of. In his case, "the other woman" is the type that sees affairs with married men as her relationship of choice. she met my husband at work, and added him on facebook ( they all do that where he works). she messaged him saying she had a problem and wanted to meet with him to talk about it, he said no, they could either talk about it via email or at work, so she emailed him about it ( have seen these emails, so I know he's being honest- he showed them to me at the time). THey strated a "freindly" facebook correspondence, and he saw her as a friend he could talk to about problems he was having. i asked him the other night why he had done that, ( i knew he'd done it but didn't know why) and he told me that he knew i was under a lot of stress and didn't want to add to it and also that some of the things that were bothering him were work related and he thoguht she would understand. The weird thing ( but it seems very common) is that they more they talked, the bigger his problems got, and very slowly, she started blaming me for them...the first emails where she started to do this were very subtle...kind of " she must be so stressed...how does she deal with it...which became " she's stressed and that's why she's taking it out on you " which became " she's being so mean to you and scraming at you and won't let you do anything you want" ( his respnses slowly chnaged over time too, and painted me as being worse and worse). They eventually became " shes; a strong person, she can get along without you,and you deserve to be happy". around that time, she messaged me on facebook ( she had added me as a friend...i had no idea the teo of them were in an emotional affair...it honestly didn't occur to me that a sinlge woman would want to get involved with a guy she knew was married- dumb of me, eh?) and started a chat with me, asking about us and our kids, etc. ...the things i told her were soon twistered into negatives about him which she passed along to him in their chats. It took a long time and a lot of counseling ( he was having mental health issues at the time, which really had nothing to do with me...it was more work stress, stress from his family, stress with our kids, stress from being deployed, stress from being a pallbearing from one of his freidns killed on deplpyment, etc.). I was just an easy target, I guess ( his psychiatrist told the two of it's really easy to blame the person closest to you). It seems like , for him, it could have been"anyone"... and , unlike most "other men/women' she really is a predator, and has since gone through several other married guys, all of whom have been going through personal issues. I wish my husband had been stronger and ignored her, but wishing that won't chnage what happened. The one good thing is that he has learned much better coping skills and has adressed issues that he should have a long time ago...it's been hard for him, but he's stuck with it, and i respect that.
ThinkBelieve Posted December 7, 2011 Posted December 7, 2011 (edited) BB, I see my previous post got deleted. I do thank you for your input and i apologize if i am threadjacking. I am sorry about what you and your daughter are going through. I hope it all works out for her. I agree with the friendly front. We will always be friendly and we still are. We are just at an impasse where we have realized we no longer love or desire one another, like a good marriage should. My spouse does not know about the affair or about my feelings for the other man. I truly do care for the other man because he is incredible. He is going through some changes too and ultimately his happiness is very important to me. I'm sure your daughter's situation is completely different. But, when I had my discussion with spouse, my income was a big concern for him. Edited December 8, 2011 by ThinkBelieve
Author flutterbykiss Posted December 8, 2011 Author Posted December 8, 2011 Thanks for sharing your story FS. My story is very similar (well part of my story, anyway) and that's one of the reasons I started this thread - to get some other peoples perspectives. I was wondering if I was just fooling myself with the whole 'affair fog' theory that seems to make so much sense in my situation. It seems like , for him, it could have been"anyone"... and , unlike most "other men/women' she really is a predator, and has since gone through several other married guys, all of whom have been going through personal issues. I believe this is more common than you think. Perhaps not the serial predator idea but I think there are definitely some people out there that pursue a MP and use mental games to paint the M in a bad light and present themselves as a far better alternative; an impossible fantasy that no real M could possibly compete with. It's not always the case but sometimes it is. I wish my husband had been stronger and ignored her, but wishing that won't chnage what happened. The one good thing is that he has learned much better coping skills and has adressed issues that he should have a long time ago...it's been hard for him, but he's stuck with it, and i respect that. This where I believe that some underlying problem in the M, in how the H and W relates to each other, has to take some responsibility for the A. Also, thanks to everyone who has posted on this thread. I've learned so much
SoMovinOn Posted December 8, 2011 Posted December 8, 2011 (edited) The first willing partner will usually do for someone that has decided to cheat based on their own insecurities and selfishness. I haven't seen any indication on this board, or elsewhere, the partner usually decides to have an A, before meeting someone. It seems far more common they meet someone, think it is innocent initially, then it evolves into an A. How many threads in the infidelity related sections start with "I never thought I would..." (or something to that effect). I'm not saying it doesn't happen the other way. It certainly does, but, as for which is more common - I don't know, but, if I had to guess, I would pick the "We didn't plan an A" method. Edited May 19, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
bentnotbroken Posted December 8, 2011 Posted December 8, 2011 (edited) The attraction may not be planned, but affairs don't exist without planning...the calls, texts, emails, meetings...maintenance is planned. Edited May 19, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
ladydesigner Posted December 8, 2011 Posted December 8, 2011 The attraction may not be planned, but affairs don't exist without planning...the calls, texts, emails, meetings...maintenance is planned. Damn straight. In order to have the affair involves planning and deception in order to keep it secret. It's all really disgusting to me now in hindsight.
BeyondtheClouds Posted December 9, 2011 Posted December 9, 2011 (edited) The weird thing ( but it seems very common) is that they more they talked, the bigger his problems got, and very slowly, she started blaming me for them...the first emails where she started to do this were very subtle...kind of " she must be so stressed...how does she deal with it...which became " she's stressed and that's why she's taking it out on you " which became " she's being so mean to you and scraming at you and won't let you do anything you want" ( his respnses slowly chnaged over time too, and painted me as being worse and worse). They eventually became " shes; a strong person, she can get along without you,and you deserve to be happy". around that time, she messaged me on facebook ( she had added me as a friend...i had no idea the teo of them were in an emotional affair...it honestly didn't occur to me that a sinlge woman would want to get involved with a guy she knew was married- dumb of me, eh?) and started a chat with me, asking about us and our kids, etc. ...the things i told her were soon twistered into negatives about him which she passed along to him in their chats. Absolutely fascinating and in some ways your situation resonates with mine...... My guy and I have been exclusive for a year now but he was dating someone else at the same as us and then wanted to present her as "just a friend." My failed marriage was plagued by emotional affairs which I may write about at some time, so I am especially concerned. I finally got my guy to let go of the charades that he' such good friends with this woman, so that's good. But I want to make sense of all this. I did have a chance to look at his FB account, the messages there, his e-mail account and his text messages. HE's kind of a messy guy so I was fist able to find evidence of his lying to me just simply on the floor of his apartment. And then he offered to let me see this digital accounts of his. What is interesting just like FS found, the woman tried to present herself as a friend to my guy, even telling him that she was doing online dating. But then I could see from the credit card statements lying about, he was perfectly happy to underwrite their outings, even the bar tabs for her and her friends on two occasions. He confided in her about some intimate things between us two. So when she found a guy who was interested in dating her, she told him that since the relationship between us was going nowhere, that they should get together (again sort of, my guy did admit that he tried to date her before we met and she dissed him, so I guess she's one of those types who needs challenge.) These days I don't trust these opposite sex friendships very much and I have decided that it's up to my partner to make feel secure if he must continue them. My guy never made an effort to introduce, so I wonder if he realised that she would most likely be a loose cannon around me. I think also that what she liked most out of him was his credit card. I know for certain that he paid off 2 bar tabs with her and her friends. I did see an e-mail string in which he had changed his mind about watching a sports game at the pub with her and she went ballistic, standing him up for some other activity that they had planned to do. (which included refusing to reimburse him for the cost of the advance ticket that he bought for her) A friend of mine and I surmised that she was probably pissed that she had no one to close the bar tab that day. (Funny how they managed to continue remaining friends.) But the coup de grace did come when, after talking about 30th b-day many times on FB wall, my guy only received an invitation to her b-day party the day of. We didn't go and she texted him right at 11pm --when pubs close here in London-- with "why didn't you come?" I was glad to hear him say that he was not happy about that. She sent him a text message the next week accusing him of his obnoxious behavior due to his not attending her party and then offered him "options" to buy tickets to some heavy metal festival that she had won in a lottery and I suspect, she couldn't find anyone else to go with. (I say this because given the number of photo albums on her FB wall, these best she could do for this attending this festival was a link back to the festival site.) HE showed me the exchange and when she asked "can we not be friends or friendly with each other?" I told him that that was a good point to stop responding and so he did.......... Things have been going will between us since then but I do think my putting my foot down about this "friendship" actually strengthened our relationship. If he had continued seeing her --even without sex between them-- I would have felt that our relationship would not have been significantly better than an FWB. Edited May 19, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
frozensprouts Posted December 9, 2011 Posted December 9, 2011 (edited) Absolutely fascinating and in some ways your situation resonates with mine...... something else that would go on between the two of them was that if there was something I was doing or said that he didn't feel he understood, rather than talk to me about it, he'd talk to her to get a "female's perspective". Based upon some of the things I saw, she'd spin that into " well, just speaking as a woman, if I was doing/saying those things, it would mean I didn't care about the guy I was with". How he could believe her i'll never know. He was pretty naive about it, and so was I...didn't see it for what it was until it was too late. Edited May 19, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
BeyondtheClouds Posted December 9, 2011 Posted December 9, 2011 (edited) I...didn't see it for what it was until it was too late. Why do you say it was too late? Edited May 19, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
LoveTKO Posted December 9, 2011 Posted December 9, 2011 (edited) ...he was dating someone else at the same as us and then wanted to present her as "just a friend." My failed marriage was plagued by emotional affairs which I may write about at some time, so I am especially concerned. These days I don't trust these opposite sex friendships very much When in a relationship, you should always approach a so called "friend" of the opposite sex with a healthy dose of skepticism, because as a guy I can tell you for a fact that boundaries eventually become nebulous. I have a lot of girlfriends who call me or text me just to chat, but I can't deny that I've slept with about 90% of those who are in my female circle of friends. A lot of them still test me from time to time with salacious dialogue or veiled sexual overtures.......it doesn't take much to cross that boundary. I don't believe that anyone in a committed relationship has any business fraternizing excessively with a member of the opposite sex, regardless of how innocuous the relationship may seem. Edited May 19, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
frozensprouts Posted December 9, 2011 Posted December 9, 2011 Why do you say it was too late? when he first started talking with her, she presented it as a" co-worker who is new to the platoon and needs some help getting adjusted" thing, which became a "friends" things then a "confidantes" things then a " emotional affair thing" then a "physical affair" thing. he didn't notice the change, as it was gradual, and i trusted him to not cheat, so i just thought it was a friendship....found out after it turned into an affair that it had become a lot more... that seems happen with a fair degree of frequency...one doesn't notice the change from friend to affair partner
Recommended Posts