verhrzn Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 I've been seeing this sentiment a lot in relationship articles; that a man should love a woman more than she loves him for a healthy relationship. I've also seen that a woman should be more physically attractive and smarter than her boyfriend/husband. The logic seems to be that if the guy is hotter/smarter, or if the woman is needier (loves him more), than the guy doesn't feel like he's won a prize, and feels like he's settling, and so is more likely to stray or seek better. Do you think this is true? My own experiences are that guys are much more likely to date and marry above their "leagues," and that if a guy gets a girl in his own league looks-and-intelligence wise he's not very satisfied. So, if you're considered a "bottom league" girl, what exactly are your options as far as dating goes if this is true? Here's the article: http://tinyurl.com/6qxufjg
Queen Zenobia Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 This is a sad way of thinking about this subject.
Author verhrzn Posted November 28, 2011 Author Posted November 28, 2011 This is a sad way of thinking about this subject. Why do you think it's sad?
carhill Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 IMO, as long as both parties have a strong and compatible commitment style, who loves who more or who is prettier than who doesn't really matter in the long run. As an example of the variables, even if you are 'less pretty' than your man and love him more than he loves you, if he has a strong sense of commitment regarding your relationship, those factors will mean little. In fact, for example, if your styles were incompatible, with his being strong and yours being weak, it could even end up with you abandoning or cheating on him, simply because of your own issues. Within a relationship or marriage, it is the sense of 'us' and the 'team' and the commitment to the relationship which weathers all the variables which life throws at one. I'll leave the 'league' stuff to others as I have no opinion on that nuance.
Feelsgoodman Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 There is no such thing as "bottom league". You can always find someone who is uglier, dumber and more desperate.
Queen Zenobia Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 Why do you think it's sad? You shouldn't think about love as some kind of greater than or less than proposition. You either love someone or you don't. You may love them more than they love you (or vice versa) but you'll never really know for sure since you can't be inside their mind. You just have to go out there and take the chance. Otherwise, what the hell is the point? This kind of view about love I think is at the root of a lot of the problems people have in their relationships.
Author verhrzn Posted November 28, 2011 Author Posted November 28, 2011 There is no such thing as "bottom league". You can always find someone who is uglier, dumber and more desperate. I can't. My last ex-bf lives in his parents' basement, has been unemployed for a year and graduated with a lower GPA than me, and he still thinks he's better than me. You shouldn't think about love as some kind of greater than or less than proposition. You either love someone or you don't. You may love them more than they love you (or vice versa) but you'll never really know for sure since you can't be inside their mind. You just have to go out there and take the chance. Otherwise, what the hell is the point? This kind of view about love I think is at the root of a lot of the problems people have in their relationships. But there are reasons you love someone, like they have beautiful hair or are very witty. And there are certain things that have value in relationships... so if the person you're dating has more things of value than you, why WOULD they love you? They'd want to date someone who was their equal or better, right? I'm still not seeing why that's such a sad way to look at relationships. Isn't it logical?
FitChick Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 I can't. My last ex-bf lives in his parents' basement, has been unemployed for a year and graduated with a lower GPA than me, and he still thinks he's better than me. You worry too much about what others think of you. You need to worry more about what you think of yourself. That's the crux of the problem. Read my signature.
grkBoy Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 verhrzn, i don't buy into that. The people who seemingly are seeking a "prize" are people who will never be in a solid RL to begin with. So let's say average-Joe looking guy with a lot of wealth lands himself a perfect-10 looking wife. He thinks he's got amazing eye candy to make himself look like Hugh Hefner, she thinks she'll be living on Tiffany and Dior forever. Now...imagine a big economic crash hits, and he's broke. Would she dump him based on what I just stated? How about if ten years pass and she's looking old while he's looking "distinguished", and there are "younger sluts" all flirting with him? The problem with these two is they're not really in love with each other, but in love with the image and lifestyle each side brings. He feels she's his "prize" for being wealthy while she feels he's her "prize" for being hot. Imagine if he was butt ugly...do you think she would cheat with someone hotter? How about if he's away on a business trip, and two hot young girls offer him a threesome at his hotel room? My big point is when people truly love one another, then it doesn't become a comparison thing. verhrzn, you need to stop thinking you're some "bottom of the barrel" girl. That's a big reason why you're not succeeding in love. You show a lack of confidence combined with some bitterness because you're having troubles with men. We've talked about this, and I still tell you I know very hot women who have the same bad luck you have. They're even dating "AVERAGE JOES" and these guys get all "crazy jealous" or become jerks or won't commit and act flakey. It's not just you having bad luck in love.
Queen Zenobia Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 But there are reasons you love someone, like they have beautiful hair or are very witty. And there are certain things that have value in relationships... so if the person you're dating has more things of value than you, why WOULD they love you? They'd want to date someone who was their equal or better, right? I'm still not seeing why that's such a sad way to look at relationships. Isn't it logical? Love itself is not logical, it requires to care about someone unconditionally, when there's a very real chance that person (like many people in general) will be selfish, mean-spirited, immature, lazy, have a sense of entitlement, unfaithful, among other negative traits. So if you're looking for logic, you need to find another business to get into. And as far as leagues and such go, no one has any idea what league they're in and who else is in that league with them. Not everyone values the same qualities. Some value a sense of humor, some value beauty, some value great sex, some value money and a comfortable lifestyle. You can't force a square peg into a round hole, and you shouldn't try.
Feelsgoodman Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 I can't. My last ex-bf lives in his parents' basement, has been unemployed for a year and graduated with a lower GPA than me, and he still thinks he's better than me. So you think that living with one's parents and being unemployed for a year during a recession makes one a "bottom leaguer"? Interesting perspective. And yeah, your BF probably is better than you. At least, he's not the one who is a materialistic, judgmental @sshole.
somedude81 Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 Man love the woman more? That's a quick way for her to lose respect and leave him. The person who loves the other the least, has the power. And from what I've seen, women don't want the power.
carhill Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 A woman (or man) with a lot of power and a strong sense of commitment can be a great life partner, IMO. As is often said, with much power comes much responsibility. Some people have the shoulders for that and some don't. It comes down to choice. Choose wisely
Author verhrzn Posted November 28, 2011 Author Posted November 28, 2011 So you think that living with one's parents and being unemployed for a year during a recession makes one a "bottom leaguer"? Interesting perspective. And yeah, your BF probably is better than you. At least, he's not the one who is a materialistic, judgmental @sshole. Oh, I see, so him passing up perfectly decent jobs because they're not "good enough" for him while his parents pay for everything (along with paying for his rent and giving him an allowance all through school) is how mature adults are supposed to act? And me paying for all my bills, after putting myself through college, and KILLING myself getting a job (applying for everything) somehow makes me a materialistic a**hole? THAT'S the really interesting perspective.
ThsAmericanLife Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 I can't. My last ex-bf lives in his parents' basement, has been unemployed for a year and graduated with a lower GPA than me, and he still thinks he's better than me. Sure you can... "Noone can make you feel inferior without your consent" - Eleanor Roosevelt
jobaba Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 The logic seems to be that if the guy is hotter/smarter, or if the woman is needier (loves him more), than the guy doesn't feel like he's won a prize, and feels like he's settling, and so is more likely to stray or seek better. Do you think this is true? My own experiences are that guys are much more likely to date and marry above their "leagues," and that if a guy gets a girl in his own league looks-and-intelligence wise he's not very satisfied. So, if you're considered a "bottom league" girl, what exactly are your options as far as dating goes if this is true? Here's the article: http://tinyurl.com/6qxufjg 1) Absolutely not. Recently a woman confessed I won her over when she wasn't particularly attracted at first. It made me feel like sh@t. I'd much rather have a woman who was less attractive and thought I was hot. Period. At least that's the way I feel now. That may change. 2) As far as being bottom league, I often put myself in that same category, except I use the phrase 'bottom of the totem pole' . I guess your options are to find someone 'of a similar level' or find a person that doesn't care that much about looks who can lie about it. ADD: If you are 'bottom league', I have seen your pictures and think you are attractive. And half this website has said similar. I'm not gonna lie and say everybody is beautiful, it's not true. But you complaining about your looks is like Wolf complaining about being 5'8". You guys are well within the physical ranges to have no problem meeting other desirable people to date.
donnamaybe Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 Oh, I see, so him passing up perfectly decent jobs because they're not "good enough" for him while his parents pay for everything (along with paying for his rent and giving him an allowance all through school) is how mature adults are supposed to act? And me paying for all my bills, after putting myself through college, and KILLING myself getting a job (applying for everything) somehow makes me a materialistic a**hole? THAT'S the really interesting perspective. Try to ignore the bitter, dateless folks on LS. As for the topic at hand, my opinion is that if either of the people in a R is even thinking whether one loves the other more or less than the other, THAT R IS DOOMED TO FAIL! I love my man with all my heart. I don't try to keep score. I just figure he loves me too to be as kind and caring and giving toward me and my loved ones as he is.
carhill Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 Here ya go Married 29 years. Does he love her more?
Feelsgoodman Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 Oh, I see, so him passing up perfectly decent jobs because they're not "good enough" for him while his parents pay for everything (along with paying for his rent and giving him an allowance all through school) is how mature adults are supposed to act? And me paying for all my bills, after putting myself through college, and KILLING myself getting a job (applying for everything) somehow makes me a materialistic a**hole? THAT'S the really interesting perspective. Well, maybe he doesn't want to settle for something that you consider a "perfectly good job" and wants to find something better. Nothing wrong with that, if his parents are willing to support him in the meantime. Who are you to pass judgment on him?? And what about you passing up a perfectly good, hard working illegal alien who's busting his @$$ for $4/hour and would probably be happy to be in a relationship with you (if for no other reason than a green card) while you are pining for some "suitable" man with an education and a real job? So please don't tell me that you are already scrapping the bottom because men that you are after are not even anything close to bottom leaguers
carhill Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 Just did for me. Great red carpet photo of Jason Alexander and his wife Daena.
RiverRunning Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 I think there is some truth to the 'attractive' issue - I've seen studies on the subject. And take a look around at most couples you know - the woman is probably at least somewhat more attractive, or at least on par with her boyfriend, right? Women tend to shop down in looks and men tend to shop up. In my first relationship, it was very obvious that I was my boyfriend's consolation prize. He was very tall and very thin, but I still don't think he was that attractive (and heard the same from many other people). But after we broke up, he went on to have 3 other girlfriends over the period of 2 - 3 years...some were long-term. In short, he never went for long without a girlfriend. But during our relationship, he put down my looks and eventually started pressuring me to work out. He barely carried a 2.0 GPA, he was possessive, controlling, manipulative, insanely jealous (he accused me of sleeping with a gay childhood friend behind his back), would routinely call off work until he got fired, and expected me to take him out all of the time. When we broke up, he had all sorts of horrible things to say. But it didn't bother me. Why? Because I graduated from college with high marks, I interned 3 times, and I've managed to get a somewhat decent job. I also know that I am kind, caring, helpful, more intelligent than he ever was (he begged me to write papers for him because he couldn't string a sentence together), etc. I don't care if he thinks he's better than I am. From what I hear, he hasn't been employed in about a year, he takes one class at a time because he can't handle the "stress" of college (this is his 7th year in school). Whenever he gets a job, he gets fired because he's lazy or starts calling off, just like he did when we were dating. The proof is in the pudding, as they say. He can claim he's better than I am to the ends of the Earth. But he knows the reason why he left him. And the evidence pertaining to my personality/education/work success is all right there. I've even had some of his ex-girlfriends later track me down on-line to complain about how horribly he treated them, how bad he was with school, etc. He still has not changed. People like that never change. But even if he does think he's better than me, my self-esteem does not hinge on that. I think maybe some self-esteem books and maybe even a little therapy could be beneficial to you. Much of my self-esteem was wrapped up in my looks, especially because my ex beat me down about them. But I had to learn he was doing that in an attempt to keep me 'down' and with him. I've seen you too, OP. I do not get this stampede of "I'm ugly, I'm ugly!" A very small percentage of the population is super-hot. A slightly bigger percentage is hot. Most of us are just average, and that is FINE. We do not need to be obsessed with being gorgeous. Average does not mean ugly. It still means that you should have no problem finding guys who find you incredibly sexy. You just have to put your chin up and keep going, and stop ascribing relationship failures to the way you look.
dasein Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 Men's dating coaches like Doc Love condition their whole theory of relationships on the woman's level of interest. The male level of interest for these gurus doesn't matter, only hers. So the advice is to never let the woman think she has "got you" 100% or her interest level will begin an inevitable decline. I agree with this partially, but also see merit in positions like QZ's in that approaching a relationship as a Machiavellian exercise in power politics and ROI is the wrong approach. My relationships tend to run better when the woman thinks I'm above her in some way, either intelligence, education, income, career, social value, charm, wit, something, and only has to be in one or two ways. It seems to give her something to look up to and enhances the "strong shoulder" impression that many women are attracted to. Whether you are like that yourself is for you to decide of course. My relationships tend to go straight to hell when the woman starts to perceive that she is better than me. It starts with mild disdain, and then grows to out and out nastiness and bad treatment very quickly.
Author verhrzn Posted November 28, 2011 Author Posted November 28, 2011 Well, maybe he doesn't want to settle for something that you consider a "perfectly good job" and wants to find something better. Nothing wrong with that, if his parents are willing to support him in the meantime. Who are you to pass judgment on him?? And what about you passing up a perfectly good, hard working illegal alien who's busting his @$$ for $4/hour and would probably be happy to be in a relationship with you (if for no other reason than a green card) while you are pining for some "suitable" man with an education and a real job? So please don't tell me that you are already scrapping the bottom because men that you are after are not even anything close to bottom leaguers Oh, I see... So, I don't get to have any standards. I don't get to have any criteria at all, for example, "Guy I'm dating should have a JOB" because that would make me judgmental and materialistic. And even though I have a good job, and an education, because I'm physically unattractive, the only possible guys I could date are illegal aliens without even a college education who would date me for a green card. Because ANY man is better than NO man, even if that man is only dating ME because he himself is desperate. Is THAT what you're saying?
carhill Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 To me, that dynamic (a woman who has to feel the man is 'above' her to feel committed) is an example of an incompatible relationship style for someone who has a strong commitment style; one not founded upon variables surely subject to change in life.
jobaba Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 Oh, I see... So, I don't get to have any standards. I don't get to have any criteria at all, for example, "Guy I'm dating should have a JOB" because that would make me judgmental and materialistic. And even though I have a good job, and an education, because I'm physically unattractive, the only possible guys I could date are illegal aliens without even a college education who would date me for a green card. Because ANY man is better than NO man, even if that man is only dating ME because he himself is desperate. Is THAT what you're saying? I'm beginning to see why you have problems with men and relationships...
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