bitterness, delusion, and reality

[fortyninethousand322]

The other thing is, don't most single people go on dates at a higher frequency than once a year? That's the current pace I'm on. I'm guessing since the online thing isn't panning out, I just have to man up and approach women in public more. But I would have thought that I would have gotten more than one date from online dating.

[dasein]

Take the classic scenario of wealthy man taking pretty woman out for an expensive meal. The bitter guy will look at that and immediately launch into a rant about women using their looks to get special treatment, being whores etc etc. Men being suckers who "overvalue pussy" or try to "buy" pretty women with fancy meals and are taken on a ride. From the wealthy man's perspective, it's probably more a case of "I enjoy eating in this particular restaurant and I enjoy having the company of an attractive woman when doing so. The enjoyment of the meal and the company outweighs the cost in terms of time and the cost of the meal."

 

Yeah let's take that scenario. Because it describes my life and all my average male friends' lifes with women since the late 80s early 90s when we started dating, 20 someodd years. And we are talking middle class, not wealthy by U.S. standards, perhaps wealthy by world standards.

 

Sure I've enjoyed many dates, and paid for 99% of them. I've also dated many women who make as much money as me, whom I competed with for places in schools with affirmative action policies in place, whom I competed with for jobs with affirmative action policies in place. I've dated a large number of women who were making more money than me at the time. I've lost slots in schools and job opportunities to LESS QUALIFIED women merely because of the "gentlemen tax."

 

These women, for the most part, have been very outspoken about equality and women's issues, despite benefitting from affirmative action their entire lives and work careers. When it comes to bearing the financial burden of early dating though, and an uneven financial burden throughout the relationship, suddenly it's all about "ladies and gentlemen" again. How convenient! I estimate the personal cost of this particular form of "equality," the "gentleman tax," in all its variations, at around 50k over my adult life (not including lost school slots and job opportunities). Fifty thousand dollars. Refuse to pay the gentleman tax, and let the "cheap calling" clarion call sound throughout the land, from women who claim to want "equality."

 

But sure, complaining about this cultural hypocrisy, despite being able to have something of a normal happy dating life regardless, necessarily comes from a place of the fem weasel word "bitterness" and not feeling scammed.

 

It's as if someone is pickpocketed, hollers out "Thief thief!" and onlookers retort with "Shut up already, you are just bitter."

 

The "paying for meals" is just one example of this. Similar analysis can be applied to lots of other common male experiences of dating.

 

"Bitterness" has become a BS catch-all reaction to any complaint by men of generalized socially prevalent female behavior or the state of the female dating pool.

 

60-80% of women in your dating pool wanton whores, alcoholics, eating disorders, on SSRIs, mentally and emotionally disturbed, materialistic? No, you see, it's all YOU, YOU are merely "bitter." Or the hilarious variant, "Oh no, you see you obviously want only supermodels, so it's your fault for not letting that perfectly pleasant alcoholic whore into your life!"

 

Can't find women in your dating pool who aren't either on the "f-cking a drug dealer" pole, the "church lady" pole or the "mouthy feminist" pole? Nonono it's YOU, my friend, YOU are just bitter. Go out trying to find a wife in your thirties because it's the first time you can even marshal female attention, and lost in a sea of morbidly obese single mothers who are blatantly looking for a checkbook to pay for their past bad choices? Oh.... it's you, YOU are bitter. Meet women on your level and find to your chagrin that they are STILL holding out for a man far far above them in dating market value? It's YOU, she has the right to have whatever preferences she likes.

 

Nice blame shifting magic trick, all female social and cultural fault becomes male "bitterness" with the mere wave of the witch's broom.

 

And since we are bitter, any cultural or social complaint we might have about women is completely discounted. Neat trick. It's wearing thin though. Enjoy the company of cats ladies.

[Taramere]

60-80% of women in your dating pool wanton whores, alcoholics, eating disorders, on SSRIs, mentally and emotionally disturbed, materialistic? No, you see, it's all YOU,

 

http://www.ventdelaitue.org/blagues-l/archives/2001/Kind-of-people.html

[Trollhunter]

If a person is bitter about not having a relationship, it means that they're not ready for one in the first place.

[Mme. Chaucer]

The alternative to "bitter" is NOT "rose colored glasses."

 

I do NOT think that bitterness is ever appropriate. I do think that a season of bitterness and / or wallowing in self pity might be part of a person's life, but that person needs to get over it.

 

I do not mean "get over it" in a cavalier sense. I know very well that many things occur during peoples' lives that are impossible to "get over."

 

I mean get over bitterness.

 

You know, I think this whole "bitter man" trend is pretty new. I used to think of "bitter" as more the stereotypical province of women. You know. "Bitter hag." "Bitter old maid."

 

This is what I truly believe: You have one life, and the way it goes is a result of how you handle what comes your way, good and bad, AND what you create yourself. If you don't get what you want, or feel the "unfairness" of it all, you need to move past that and not let the bitterness of those feelings define you.

 

I have had troubles with depression during my life, and I KNOW very deeply what it feels like to believe with all your heart that all is hopeless, and to let that define how you live. But after all is said and done, it's up to the individual to make something good out of his or her life, and to not succumb to the negative.

 

I am a lot older than you, OP. I have had experiences, and known many people who have, which could have completely shattered or permanently embittered someone who allowed that to happen. I have people in my life who DID allow that to happen, and watching their lives is terribly disheartening.

 

I had relatives who survived concentration camps, and who went on to be HAPPY and loving people. I also had one who was a hateful and bitter person all of his life. I have a friend who was shot by a random stranger when he was an athletic 12 year old, and has lived paralyzed from the sternum down since then. He is a person full of love, joy and humor. He lives with a lot of pain, and there are plenty of things he dreamed of and deeply desired that won't be happening. He is a published author and realizing many of his dreams. And he DID go through a profound "why me" and bitter season of life … but he CHOSE not to live like that.

 

Bitterness and self pity are life choices. Choosing them will guarantee you a poor life.

 

Also, I don't think that anyone in the world finds bitterness and self pity to be attractive features. So if this all boils down to your love life, you are assuring continued drought in that department by defending your chosen bitter man path.

[fortyninethousand322]

If a person is bitter about not having a relationship, it means that they're not ready for one in the first place.

 

Cool. So does that mean I should wait a few years and when I'm ready for one girls will chase me?

[Trollhunter]

Cool. So does that mean I should wait a few years and when I'm ready for one girls will chase me?

 

Work on your insecurities and only time will tell. Stop thinking that having someone will validate you. You do yourself first.

[fortyninethousand322]

Work on your insecurities and only time will tell. Stop thinking that having someone will validate you. You do yourself first.

 

This is the only insecurity I have left: the idea that women just aren't into me. That, and that my inexperience will turn off a very large portion of women (you see this in many threads on LS).

 

It's not about validation, it's about thinking that maybe I'd like some female companionship (and yes some physical stuff too). I can't get that on my own.

[dasein]

http://www.ventdelaitue.org/blagues-l/archives/2001/Kind-of-people.html

 

Yeah, what did I expect? You trot out an absurdly slanted and inapt analogy in one post and then a stale platitude of a fable in the next.

 

Or rather here's my version of the fable:

 

A man from the U.S. is visiting Singapore, and is met at the town gate by an old watchman.

 

"Let me ask you wise watchman, what kind of women live here in Singapore?"

 

"Well what kind of women live in the U.S. where you came from?"

 

"Unfortunately, 60% of them are obese, half are permanently on medications for depression and anxiety, a majority are alcohol and substance abusers, most are hypocrites in their hollow, self-serving feminist beliefs; they are completely indiscriminate and impulsive in their sexual and spending behavior, alternatively obscenely materialistic or adherents of dopey, superficial leftishness, etc. etc."

 

"I see," says the old wise watchman, "No worries, feminism never took hold here, we adhere to the rule of law, equality for all people, not "Animal Farm" equality, so we have NONE of those problems, gender relations are great here, both women and men are accountable for their behavior. Come on in, you will LOVE it here!"

 

"Thanks Mr. Watchman, will take some doing though, it's a shame that I have to leave my country entirely to find a normal social environment."

Edited November 27, 2011 by dasein

[Taramere]

Yeah, what did I expect? You trot out an absurdly slanted and inapt analogy in one post and then a stale platitude of a fable in the next.

 

Or rather here's my version of the fable:

 

A man from the U.S. is visiting Singapore, and is met at the town gate by an old watchman.

 

"Let me ask you wise watchman, what kind of women live here in Singapore?"

 

"Well what kind of women live in the U.S. where you came from?"

 

"Unfortunately, 60% of them are obese, half are permanently on medications for depression and anxiety, a majority are alcohol and substance abusers, most are hypocrites in their hollow, self-serving feminist beliefs; they are completely indiscriminate and impulsive in their sexual and spending behavior, alternatively obscenely materialistic or adherents of dopey, superficial leftishness, etc. etc."

 

"I see," says the old wise watchman, "No worries, feminism never took hold here, we adhere to the rule of law, equality for all people, not "Animal Farm" equality, so we have NONE of those problems, gender relations are great here, both women and men are accountable for their behavior. Come on in, you will LOVE it here!"

 

"Thanks Mr. Watchman, will take some doing though, it's a shame that I have to leave my country entirely to find a normal social environment."

 

If you'd been alive two hundred years ago or two thousand years ago I'm sure you'd have been every bit as unhappy, angry and embittered as you are in 2011. Some people are just eternal malcontents, and you're evidently one of them.

 

Platitudes are more of a response than, given your behaviour on this board, you deserve. As you don't appreciate platitudes, I'll simply revert to ignoring your posts completely.

[threebyfate]

LS is the ideal environment to begin learning how to interact with others in a positive fashion. In doing so, it's like the first baby steps towards positive social interactions in real life, with the gender of your romantic preferences.

 

You gents are wasting your opportunity, instead using LS to dump your toxic waste. In doing so, it pollutes the environment to the degree that most single women looking for a connection would either split like yesterday's news or be disinterested in interactions.

[dasein]

If you'd been alive two hundred years ago or two thousand years ago I'm sure you'd have been every bit as unhappy, angry and embittered as you are in 2011. Some people are just eternal malcontents, and you're evidently one of them.

 

Platitudes are more of a response than, given your behaviour on this board, you deserve. As you don't appreciate platitudes, I'll simply revert to ignoring your posts completely.

 

Oh and of course, top it all off with the requisite shaming session. The playbook never really changes, does it? Make an outlandishly slanted analogy, get called on it, toss out some insults and stamp off in righteous indignation. That about sum it up?

 

I think it's a grand idea for you to ignore my posts, it's not like you were going to respond in a straightforward way to any of them anyway.

[fortyninethousand322]

LS is the ideal environment to begin learning how to interact with others in a positive fashion. In doing so, it's like the first baby steps towards positive social interactions in real life, with the gender of your romantic preferences.

 

You gents are wasting your opportunity, instead using LS to dump your toxic waste. In doing so, it pollutes the environment to the degree that most single women looking for a connection would either split like yesterday's news or be disinterested in interactions.

 

Well gee, that makes it sound like I'm completely anti-social and that I have no friends and never interact with anyone in a positive fashion. Did you even read this thread? I can't learn how to kiss on LS, I can't learn how to flirt or be physically comfortable around women on LS either.

 

As for the part I bolded, I think it goes back to something I've always said: men are interested in women more than women are interested in men. I've never experienced unwanted female attention, but I'd imagine several women have experienced unwanted male attention. And I'm not talking about catcalling and such, I'm talking about a guy a girl knows who likes her, but she doesn't like back. That happens far more often to women than it does to men, IME.

[fortyninethousand322]

Put yourself out there.

 

What does this mean? Pretend I'm an alien visiting earth for the first time and explain exactly what you mean by this.

[threebyfate]

Well gee, that makes it sound like I'm completely anti-social and that I have no friends and never interact with anyone in a positive fashion. Did you even read this thread? I can't learn how to kiss on LS, I can't learn how to flirt or be physically comfortable around women on LS either.

Okay, one more response. Beyond that, I'm not going to get dragged into the black hole of energy and advice.

 

You can learn to flirt on LS. You can learn to ditch the bitterness on LS. You can learn a positive attitude towards women on LS. Once these three are honestly incorporated as part of your personality, more people will be drawn to you which includes women although you're going to have to approach women in general. That's reality.

 

As for the part I bolded, I think it goes back to something I've always said: men are interested in women more than women are interested in men. I've never experienced unwanted female attention, but I'd imagine several women have experienced unwanted male attention. And I'm not talking about catcalling and such, I'm talking about a guy a girl knows who likes her, but she doesn't like back. That happens far more often to women than it does to men, IME.

Well sure it happens more often to women than men since men are the traditional pursuers. So what? It would be like me resenting models because they're so much taller and get so much more attenshun. Who gives a crap? I know I don't.

 

Just move on from the wasted envy and resentment.

[fortyninethousand322]

Okay, one more response. Beyond that, I'm not going to get dragged into the black hole of energy and advice.

 

You can learn to flirt on LS. You can learn to ditch the bitterness on LS. You can learn a positive attitude towards women on LS. Once these three are honestly incorporated as part of your personality, more people will be drawn to you which includes women although you're going to have to approach women in general. That's reality.

 

Well I guess that means you're leaving LoveShack? Because, the last I checked the purpose of this site was discussion and advice, unless you're directing your comment at me specifically.

 

What exactly is a "positive attitude towards women"? Since, you won't be posting here anymore, this question is sort of directed at anyone in general. Is a positive attitude the belief that women are great and just like men? If that's the case I can be down with that idea. But, if a "positive attitude" is believing that I'm attractive to women (any woman) then I must say, that until I get a girlfriend (or maybe even a few dates or something) I can't honestly say that I can have that attitude. I mean that would require a willful manipulation of my own sense of logic. It's a leap I can't make at this point.

 

Well sure it happens more often to women than men since men are the traditional pursuers. So what? It would be like me resenting models because they're so much taller and get so much more attenshun. Who gives a crap? I know I don't.

 

Just move on from the wasted envy and resentment.

 

I'm saying women take a negative view of men who frequently pursue women unsuccessfully. Why would I continually put myself through the meat grinder with no guarantee or past indication of success? What exactly is in it for me? And, I'm also saying women are largely ok with being single, a lot more than men are. So, it's a power dynamic: women have more power than me.

[grkBoy]

I think it's perfectly fine for a man or woman to get bitter after a string of bad luck in love. Sometimes you have to be mad, sad, etc...and just vent it out.

 

What I personally feel though is many of the "bitter" need to channel that emotion into productive and positive things.

 

My biggest gripe with most bitter people is they never learn anything or change anything. So the girl who continually gets hurt by jerks still won't give up her fetish for "shallow meatheads" or she'll spend her life lumping 100% of the blame for her situation on men.

 

Likewise, I see plenty of guys who do the same. They get continually rejected and even are handed advice to look for different women, get better social skills, build a career, work out, dress better, etc....then a month to a year later they're bitter again and obviously did NOTHING to improve their changes. In their eyes the women are just shallow creatures who want jerks, but these guys still think women should just lower the bar and take them.

 

When I was bitter, I chose to get out of dating and just enjoy my life. To stop worrying if I had someone or not. I've seen too many men and women CONSUMED by the quest to find love. I decided to take my bitterness and channel it into something positive. I'm glad I did, and I think it's why I was a changed man when I met my fiance.

[fortyninethousand322]

I think it's perfectly fine for a man or woman to get bitter after a string of bad luck in love. Sometimes you have to be mad, sad, etc...and just vent it out.

 

What I personally feel though is many of the "bitter" need to channel that emotion into productive and positive things.

 

My biggest gripe with most bitter people is they never learn anything or change anything. So the girl who continually gets hurt by jerks still won't give up her fetish for "shallow meatheads" or she'll spend her life lumping 100% of the blame for her situation on men.

 

Likewise, I see plenty of guys who do the same. They get continually rejected and even are handed advice to look for different women, get better social skills, build a career, work out, dress better, etc....then a month to a year later they're bitter again and obviously did NOTHING to improve their changes. In their eyes the women are just shallow creatures who want jerks, but these guys still think women should just lower the bar and take them.

 

When I was bitter, I chose to get out of dating and just enjoy my life. To stop worrying if I had someone or not. I've seen too many men and women CONSUMED by the quest to find love. I decided to take my bitterness and channel it into something positive. I'm glad I did, and I think it's why I was a changed man when I met my fiance.

 

Meh, I mean I guess I just feel behind. When I was in college (just recently graduated) I looked for women around my age and disposition (living at home, full time student, etc.). When I was 19-21, it wasn't like there was a bevy of young men with careers and great fulfilling lives. And yet, despite being fairly good looking, in shape, and reasonable social skills (ability to make friends for instance) I was never able to get anywhere despite my best efforts.

 

Now, I need to find work, I need to move out, but I also feel a longing for some kind of dating life. Yeah it should be on the back burner for now, but it's hard to do that when it's been on the back burner for 5-7 years already.

 

I don't know, maybe I'm just frustrated and venting. But, if you really think that getting a job and my own place is going to instantly improve things then I'll put 110% effort into that and completely disregard dating and relationships and women until then.

[fortyninethousand322]

One more thing I'll add: I think trying online dating has been the worst decision of my life.

 

Before I tried OLD, I was at least able to chalk up my lack of success to my inability to approach women in a flirty/romantic/whatever manner. I was friendly enough, but not anything more than that. But being on a dating site, messaging many women, reading their profiles and sending messages that reflected common interests and not just scatter shot approach of me being interested in their pictures and getting next to zero responses or any dates out of it has been extremely demoralizing. Especially when I read on here how many women have complaints about online dating.

 

Maybe it's just bad luck or bad karma. Did I do something in a past life (or this life perhaps) that this is just payback for?

[jobaba]

I've never experienced unwanted female attention, but I'd imagine several women have experienced unwanted male attention. And I'm not talking about catcalling and such, I'm talking about a guy a girl knows who likes her, but she doesn't like back. That happens far more often to women than it does to men, IME.

 

I know several men who have experienced unwanted attention. My best friend had so many girls who had crushes on him. Then again, I haven't. The best way to look at it IMHO is to carve your niche in life. You're 23 years old and you've never kissed a woman. You're probably not Ryan Reynolds. It's OK. You've got to get in where you fit in and attack that niche.

 

What does this mean? Pretend I'm an alien visiting earth for the first time and explain exactly what you mean by this.

 

Get out and socialize as much as possible. Go to places where single women are around, and talk to them. If you think a woman might be into you, always make a move. Improve your game: your dress, approach, and confidence.

 

Do that and you'll meet a woman to date probably within 2 years. I'm a firm believer that experience is key. So, even if you don't like that girl who seems to be into THAT MUCH, go for her. I didn't when I was your age, and I think I'm worse off for it.

[MrNate 2.0]

Shad Helmstetter: What To Say When You Talk To Yourself

 

 

Google it. It'll change your life for the better. The part I love most about it is that it works from a scientific viewpoint, with factual ways to change things you want about yourself and your life.

 

It will also show you why getting advice such as 'improve your game, become more charming, be less bitter, etc.' is not enough, because your internal programming hasn't changed. The inner you has to change.

Edited November 27, 2011 by MrNate 2.0

[Mme. Chaucer]

"Let me ask you wise watchman, what kind of women live here in Singapore?"

 

I spent a significant time in Asia, though not in Singapore (Japan and Korea). I agree that the women in those countries, in general, kept more to the roles traditionally defined in the West as "feminine" within personal relationships than we do here, though I witnessed many women out-competing men in business, science and technical realms.

 

From my experience, however, I believe that the characteristics of blaming, whining, bitterness and self pity would be even less tolerated in a man in Asian cultures than they are here in the good old USA.

[fortyninethousand322]

Shad Helmstetter: What To Say When You Talk To Yourself

 

 

Google it. It'll change your life for the better. The part I love most about it is that it works from a scientific viewpoint, with factual ways to change things you want about yourself and your life.

 

It will also show you why getting advice such as 'improve your game, become more charming, be less bitter, etc.' is not enough, because your internal programming hasn't changed. The inner you has to change.

 

Thanks. I'm looking it up now.

[grkBoy]

I don't know, maybe I'm just frustrated and venting. But, if you really think that getting a job and my own place is going to instantly improve things then I'll put 110% effort into that and completely disregard dating and relationships and women until then.

 

Sad to say, but it does.

 

I know from age 29-33 when I "boomeranged" back home to regroup and save up a down payment, most women wouldn't bother with me. Had one female friend bluntly tell me simply that women won't pick a guy living with his parents...even if he's got a career and is saving money...over all the other guys who currently own condos without roomates.

 

It's harsh, but true. I even tried to point out how it seems ok for a woman to be living at home or even living in her boyfriend's place, but she simply pointed back that as long as men happily accept this, it will be a double standard. Meaning as long as men have no issue with a "not established" girl while women require men to be "established", then it will be a double standard.

 

I'm sure even now, in this economy, a guy with a career who is employed and living on his own with no roommates will look more appealing to women than a guy living at home or with several others.

 

We men tend to nitpick on weight, looks, and if she's got kids. Women nitpick on our looks, financial standing, etc. This is life.

 

When I got my condo and rebuilt my confidence, women did notice.

[fortyninethousand322]

Sad to say, but it does.

 

I know from age 29-33 when I "boomeranged" back home to regroup and save up a down payment, most women wouldn't bother with me. Had one female friend bluntly tell me simply that women won't pick a guy living with his parents...even if he's got a career and is saving money...over all the other guys who currently own condos without roomates.

 

It's harsh, but true. I even tried to point out how it seems ok for a woman to be living at home or even living in her boyfriend's place, but she simply pointed back that as long as men happily accept this, it will be a double standard. Meaning as long as men have no issue with a "not established" girl while women require men to be "established", then it will be a double standard.

 

I'm sure even now, in this economy, a guy with a career who is employed and living on his own with no roommates will look more appealing to women than a guy living at home or with several others.

 

We men tend to nitpick on weight, looks, and if she's got kids. Women nitpick on our looks, financial standing, etc. This is life.

 

When I got my condo and rebuilt my confidence, women did notice.

 

Yeah I hear ya. I actually don't like living at home. I mean sure, my parents are fine people and I like my siblings, but I also want to have some more independence. And I do understand that for most women living at home is a deal breaker.

 

On the other hand though, it's not totally unreasonable for a young guy right out of college (especially in this economy) to be living at home for a while until he gets on his feet. Pretty much everyone I know still lives at home, almost all do well with women.

 

Sigh, I guess I missed my golden opportunity from 18-23 when I could have gotten women (maybe) while living at home.