bitterness, delusion, and reality

[fortyninethousand322]

So we've had a rash of "bitter men" issues on the threads lately, some from the usual suspects and some I suspect (like myself) were just young men venting off some steam.

 

But, I do wonder, is bitterness ever an understandable or reasonable emotion? And I'm talking here about specifically in regards to dating, not about people born dirt poor, or without limbs or anything really bad. Just dating, for men or women. Is being bitter ever legitimate? Or are we all supposed to walk around wearing rose colored glasses?

 

Personally, for me my bitterness is fueled largely because I have yet to meet a woman who was actually attracted (not talking solely about physical here) to me, like in a personal way. I've never thought it was about my looks, weight, height, ethnicity, or any other collective trait that other people share. One, because those things aren't really an issue (I'm 6 foot, athletic/muscular, white, reasonably good looking) and two, because I've met and seen guys far worse off than me do fairly well in the dating department. True, I do live at home, and have never held a full time job, but I know some guys who live at home who do fine, and I still struggled even back in the days (high school, then college) where having a full time job wasn't to be expected.

 

In any case bitterness is the emotion I feel when I feel like I have a lot to offer and yet no one truly wants that. And of course there's also the "missed opportunity" aspect. I'll never be able to date or have a relationship as an awkward teenager or early 20s guy whose girlfriend is just as nervous as he leans in for a kiss. I'd venture to say that most women my age have at least made out or had sex at least once and is likely to prefer a man with the same experience(not to mention relationship experience): I'm starting off the adulthood journey well behind everyone else.

 

To me, the only two real alternatives to bitterness are a) giving up on ever really dating or having a relationship or b) deluding myself into believing that out there somewhere is a woman (or women) who may actually be attracted to me. Clearly one leads to a happier life than the other, but how does one trick their mind into believing that? Especially when past experience has proven otherwise. To use a sports analogy, how does a guy who's missed every free throw he's ever shot believe the next one is going in?

[Wolf18]

Well, when women are "bitter" it's called Gender studies and you can get a college degree in it.

 

People don't act in this fashion for no reason. The fact that most of the "bitter guys" here have the same exact complaints should perhaps be a clue to people that they're not just imagining things. I don't like the fact that most women are shallow and plastic, who would? But I'm not going to pretend it's any different when all anecdotal evidence leads to the same conclusion and is re-affirmed every single day. Even if the truth hurts my emotions, facts are facts and logic is more important than feelings.

Edited November 26, 2011 by Wolf18

[jobaba]

So we've had a rash of "bitter men" issues on the threads lately, some from the usual suspects and some I suspect (like myself) were just young men venting off some steam.

 

But, I do wonder, is bitterness ever an understandable or reasonable emotion? And I'm talking here about specifically in regards to dating, not about people born dirt poor, or without limbs or anything really bad. Just dating, for men or women. Is being bitter ever legitimate? Or are we all supposed to walk around wearing rose colored glasses?

 

Personally, for me my bitterness is fueled largely because I have yet to meet a woman who was actually attracted (not talking solely about physical here) to me, like in a personal way. I've never thought it was about my looks, weight, height, ethnicity, or any other collective trait that other people share. One, because those things aren't really an issue (I'm 6 foot, athletic/muscular, white, reasonably good looking) and two, because I've met and seen guys far worse off than me do fairly well in the dating department. True, I do live at home, and have never held a full time job, but I know some guys who live at home who do fine, and I still struggled even back in the days (high school, then college) where having a full time job wasn't to be expected.

 

In any case bitterness is the emotion I feel when I feel like I have a lot to offer and yet no one truly wants that. And of course there's also the "missed opportunity" aspect. I'll never be able to date or have a relationship as an awkward teenager or early 20s guy whose girlfriend is just as nervous as he leans in for a kiss. I'd venture to say that most women my age have at least made out or had sex at least once and is likely to prefer a man with the same experience(not to mention relationship experience): I'm starting off the adulthood journey well behind everyone else.

 

To me, the only two real alternatives to bitterness are a) giving up on ever really dating or having a relationship or b) deluding myself into believing that out there somewhere is a woman (or women) who may actually be attracted to me. Clearly one leads to a happier life than the other, but how does one trick their mind into believing that? Especially when past experience has proven otherwise. To use a sports analogy, how does a guy who's missed every free throw he's ever shot believe the next one is going in?

 

Unfortunately, being a bitter man is something that will always be a part of me. I can suppress it most of the time in real life and even a lot of the time online, but my history of failure and being marginalized in the dating game will always make me feel somewhat bitter.

 

Like you, what bitterness is to me is the inability for me to get what the average guy has. The further I feel I am away from that, the more bitter I feel. Basically, what the average guy is able to get is women who are attracted to him physically and like him enough for who he is to date him. Especially for me, if I get rejected based on physical attraction, it makes me bitter. Because that is something I can't change.

 

I have long tried to 'trick' my brain into suppressing my self esteem issues and bitterness. It's a gradual process and I can raise my confidence so high over a period of time only to have it come crashing down in a heartbeat.

 

Just in the past five weeks, I've gone from excruciating heartbreak ... to wanting to hit on everything that moves ... to success, high confidence and self esteem ... to feeling like the most unattractive guy and totally wanting to give up on women. It's a roller coaster ride.

[Cypress25]

It's important to understand the difference between bitter and cynical. Both are the result of a pessimistic world view, but bitterness is projected onto innocent people, and that's why it is considered a negative trait.

 

You might be cynical about dating because it has never really worked out for you, but as long as you don't take it out on other people, it's not a terrible thing. But if you're bitter about dating, that means you blame women for your unsuccessful attempts and you're likely to be rude and malicious to any woman you meet.

 

It's like blaming your teacher if you fail a test. The bitter student believes it's the teacher's fault for not giving him a good grade. The cynical student might feel kinda bummed and think of himself as a failure, but he understands that no one else is to blame.

[fortyninethousand322]

It's important to understand the difference between bitter and cynical. Both are the result of a pessimistic world view, but bitterness is projected onto innocent people, and that's why it is considered a negative trait.

 

You might be cynical about dating because it has never really worked out for you, but as long as you don't take it out on other people, it's not a terrible thing. But if you're bitter about dating, that means you blame women for your unsuccessful attempts and you're likely to be rude and malicious to any woman you meet.

 

It's like blaming your teacher if you fail a test. The bitter student believes it's the teacher's fault for not giving him a good grade. The cynical student might feel kinda bummed and think of himself as a failure, but he understands that no one else is to blame.

 

Well the difference is though that someone who did poorly on the test probably didn't study or didn't study well enough, or perhaps the subject just isn't for him. With dating, there's only so much about my life I can improve. Sure, getting a job and my own place would be good, but seriously, when I was 19 or 20 how many women were expecting guys that age to be working full time and living on their own?

 

I honestly don't know who to "blame" for my dating woes. I mean on the one hand I can't really blame anyone for not being into me and I certainly can't force them to, but how should I feel about that? Do I accept that I'll be spending my life alone? Or do I become delusional and still pursue women and dates to no avail? But on the other hand, it's not exactly like I've had any women be interested in me so I mean something's got to give here.

 

Do I wait around until I become more attractive to women? Will women be interested in a (what would likely be) a 30 year old virgin who will have his life together (I'm 23 now FTR)? Honestly, I would like to know what alternatives there are for bitterness.

[jobaba]

Do I wait around until I become more attractive to women? Will women be interested in a (what would likely be) a 30 year old virgin who will have his life together (I'm 23 now FTR)? Honestly, I would like to know what alternatives there are for bitterness.

 

Giving up?

 

Honestly, some of the happiest times in my life have been when I was single and not really thinking about women. I was into my friends, beer, music, and sports and life was good.

 

But the bug always comes back to bite me.

 

Unless you're one of those guys who doesn't have problems attracting women, you are going to have to thicken your skin and get out there.

[Wolf18]

True. The alternative is having fun with your friends. When my two best friends were single I didn't take the woman thing seriously at all, but now that they're both in long term relationships (one is having a kid in a few months) they barely hang out anymore. For a while I tried to get with a couple of girls, and spent all my time with them 1 on 1 and got along great with them, but they just wouldn't budge and instead were sleeping with a couple of loathsome (in character) yet wealthy/better looking guys, magnifying the issue.

 

Now , I pretty much cut off contact with them and am for the most part a lone wolf, I'd rather be alone and keep my dignity in tact than spend all my time with a girl who puts out for some other guy who doesn't make any effort

[Cypress25]

Sure, getting a job and my own place would be good, but seriously, when I was 19 or 20 how many women were expecting guys that age to be working full time and living on their own?

 

Then obviously that's not the problem. What is your personality like? How are your social skills? The popular kids in high school weren't popular because they were rich or had great careers; they were popular because they had very good social skills. Friendly, outgoing, likeable, great sense of humor, etc. They were charming and fun to be around.

 

If you don't have great social skills, it will be harder for you. It may be unfair, but that's life. Not everyone has a vivacious, outgoing personality. The attractive but awkward guy/girl will have more trouble than the attractive and charming guy/girl.

[Wolf18]

That's not true Cypress, I was pretty popular in high school and it was because I was ripped, had fun at other people's expense, had a crazy/wild group of friends, and just didn't give a ****.

 

I'll be the first to tell you that some traits that make you popular in high school don't translate well into the real world

 

Most people who are popular are just really good looking and/or wealthy, so people kiss their asses. Only a minority of really popular people are actually pleasent to be around or authentically charming.

[betterdeal]

To me, the only two real alternatives to bitterness are a) giving up on ever really dating or having a relationship or b) deluding myself into believing that out there somewhere is a woman (or women) who may actually be attracted to me. Clearly one leads to a happier life than the other, but how does one trick their mind into believing that? Especially when past experience has proven otherwise. To use a sports analogy, how does a guy who's missed every free throw he's ever shot believe the next one is going in?

 

Of the three options you've detailed (staying bitter being the third), which have you tried and which have worked best for you?

[fortyninethousand322]

True. The alternative is having fun with your friends. When my two best friends were single I didn't take the woman thing seriously at all, but now that they're both in long term relationships (one is having a kid in a few months) they barely hang out anymore. For a while I tried to get with a couple of girls, and spent all my time with them 1 on 1 and got along great with them, but they just wouldn't budge and instead were sleeping with a couple of loathsome (in character) yet wealthy/better looking guys, magnifying the issue.

 

Now , I pretty much cut off contact with them and am for the most part a lone wolf, I'd rather be alone and keep my dignity in tact than spend all my time with a girl who puts out for some other guy who doesn't make any effort

 

Yup. Same story here. I have friends, a fair amount of them (although there's always room for more) but as they've slowly gone off into their own relationships (some even married, some with kids) the hangouts have dwindled.

[fortyninethousand322]

Then obviously that's not the problem. What is your personality like? How are your social skills? The popular kids in high school weren't popular because they were rich or had great careers; they were popular because they had very good social skills. Friendly, outgoing, likeable, great sense of humor, etc. They were charming and fun to be around.

 

If you don't have great social skills, it will be harder for you. It may be unfair, but that's life. Not everyone has a vivacious, outgoing personality. The attractive but awkward guy/girl will have more trouble than the attractive and charming guy/girl.

 

I don't know if I have "great" social skills or not. I mean, I have friends and seem to be able to talk to people reasonably well enough (I was a sales associate for almost 9 years and had to talk to strangers all the time). I will be honest though and say that I will pretty much never talk to girls (especially women I don't know) beyond the casual and cordial conversation. That's a huge disconnect for me.

[dasein]

First, ditch the term "bitter," it's a woman's word, not a man's. If you disagree, then tell me what it means exactly other than a taste sensation.

 

Decide what real word(s) describes your feelings and evaluate from there. Are you full on angry? annoyed? cynical? burnt out? resigned? depressed? etc.? Once you know how you feel specifically, isolate the reasons as explicity as possible in as much detail as possible. It's not just "women" or "dating," but some specific experiences you have had that have made you feel a certain way. Generate a list of factors that have led to your feelings.

 

Then split a piece of paper and put the factors that are completely out of your control on one side, and the one's you have control over on the other. Few factors are completely beyond your control, but some are.

 

Number the factors as to importance, and what you would like to change in the coming year. Write down a plan to address each important factor and revise that plan until it says exactly what you want it to. The steps in the plan should be specific actions that you intend to do with an eye towards building different habits, not general touchy feely things but stuff you are going to do regularly.

 

Once you have your plan in final format, keep it close to you, on your refrigerator, on your nightstand, in your pocket; read it in the morning when you get up and at night before you go to bed. Commit to follow it to the letter for 3 months. At the end of every three months reevalute and revise the plan if needed. Good luck.

[Cypress25]

I was pretty popular in high school and it was because I was ripped, had fun at other people's expense, had a crazy/wild group of friends, and just didn't give a ****.

 

You had good social skills among your peers. Your mannerisms and your sense of humor might have been immature, but your peers were also immature, so you were popular with them. You knew how to relate to them.

 

I'll be the first to tell you that some traits that make you popular in high school don't translate well into the real world

 

I'm not saying adults in the real world should act like they're in high school, I'm saying adults who are popular with other adults have good social skills among their peers. Just like teenagers who are popular with other teenagers. And if you have good social skills in high school, then you'll probably have good social skills as an adult, because part of having good social skills is knowing how to relate to your peers, at any age. It's an instinct that comes naturally to some people.

 

Most people who are popular are just really good looking and/or wealthy, so people kiss their asses. Only a minority of really popular people are actually pleasent to be around or authentically charming.

 

Maybe in Hollywood or the corporate world, where looks, money, and power are the only things that matter. But I'm talking about normal people who have a lot of friends, and make friends easily wherever they go. They're average-looking with average jobs. And yet, people are drawn to them because they are genuinely fun to be around. Some popular people are authentically charming, and some popular people are charming in a manipulative way, but they're charming nonetheless. Call it charisma, if you will.

 

I'm not saying every popular person is a good person, but they all have a certain degree of charisma. Hitler had it, apparently. He was a horrible person, but he had millions of followers. He was persuasive and manipulative, and he knew how to relate to his followers and tell them what they wanted to hear. He wasn't particularly good looking, but he had excellent social skills and leadership skills.

[fortyninethousand322]

Of the three options you've detailed (staying bitter being the third), which have you tried and which have worked best for you?

 

Meh, I've tried variations of all three, admittedly it's been a while since I've tried being "delusional" though. At various times I've given up (not too long ago I made a thread about the issue) either out of frustration or because I was busy with other things but I've never been able to give up for a long period of time, it usually only lasts a few weeks maybe a month or so and then it's back to being unhappy. Bitterness, is obviously not all that effective for me and doesn't make me feel good. And then sort of going about my life pretending that someone probably wants to be with me is something I just can't wrap my mind around. I just can't believe it. Even when I do get the courage to talk to some girl I usually end up giving up at the earliest sign that she's not 100% into me, or if there's any sign of another guy in the picture.

 

I don't know, none have really been all that effective for me.

[Wolf18]

Maybe in Hollywood or the corporate world, where looks, money, and power are the only things that matter. But I'm talking about normal people who have a lot of friends, and make friends easily wherever they go. They're average-looking with average jobs. And yet, people are drawn to them because they are genuinely fun to be around. Some popular people are authentically charming, and some popular people are charming in a manipulative way, but they're charming nonetheless. Call it charisma, if you will.[/Quote]

 

 

I agree there is something to that, but i think being liked by everyone is a sign of weakness. Someone once said "If you are a man who has never had enemies, then you have never stood for anything"- I tend to agree.

 

I'm not saying every popular person is a good person, but they all have a certain degree of charisma. Hitler had it, apparently. He was a horrible person, but he had millions of followers. He was persuasive and manipulative, and he knew how to relate to his followers and tell them what they wanted to hear. He wasn't particularly good looking, but he had excellent social skills and leadership skills. [/Quote]

 

Hitler's a controversial figure, he lived in different times where different things were valued and unlike most politicians when he promised something he actually delivered. That is how you win fanatical loyalty, but it doesn't make you popular per se, he became popular because well...he was a dictator lol. Napoleon is the same, both of them led from the front which is something people admired. Look at the polished turds we have in Washington DC and you will see that some aspects of dictators Napoleon, Hitler, etc will always make them superior (from a historical point of view) to the Bushes and Obama's of the world.

[Chii]

Honestly, you can't apply any logical reasoning or any type of statistical analysis to rationalize or make sense of the dating world. Once you accept that it is just a pain in the ass and go with whatever bs comes at you, you'll be a lot better off.

 

I would just try to null and void any negative feelings you have towards dating because it'll most likely show if you do eventually come across a decent girl. Now obviously, feeling like that won't change over night or even go away 100% of the time but the world is a lot better when you a adopt "I don't give a ****" attitude.

 

My answer to the OP is probably way off base, but I felt inclined to post it anyway. Feel free to debate.

[Cypress25]

I agree there is something to that, but i think being liked by everyone is a sign of weakness. Someone once said "If you are a man who has never had enemies, then you have never stood for anything"- I tend to agree.

 

No one is liked by everyone. It's not possible. Even the most popular people have enemies. But they're liked by a lot of people because they can charm or manipulate their way into a lot of social situations.

[Wolf18]

This is meaningless. Why does it matter either way?

 

Because all the most popular people can't stay up there unless they are constantly changing their opinions to please the crowd.

[fortyninethousand322]

Honestly, you can't apply any logical reasoning or any type of statistical analysis to rationalize or make sense of the dating world. Once you accept that it is just a pain in the ass and go with whatever bs comes at you, you'll be a lot better off.

 

I would just try to null and void any negative feelings you have towards dating because it'll most likely show if you do eventually come across a decent girl. Now obviously, feeling like that won't change over night or even go away 100% of the time but the world is a lot better when you a adopt "I don't give a ****" attitude.

 

My answer to the OP is probably way off base, but I felt inclined to post it anyway. Feel free to debate.

 

You're not way off base, I welcome any and all opinions.

 

Your view of dating as being a pain in the rear end kind of makes sense. I mean for the longest time I thought (and still kind of do) that dating would be somewhat harder than than a leisurely stroll, but somewhat easier than climbing Mt. Everest without oxygen and climbing equipment, alas, if only it could be as easy as climbing Everest.

 

I guess I'm just sort of fed up with the whole thing, I see guys complaining about clingy women or having to choose between multiple women and I think to myself "gee, if only I could be so lucky". And then I hear about so many women looking for a good, decent guy, but who I know wouldn't give me the time of day if I showed any interest.

 

I know I have to stop caring, but it's been really hard.

[betterdeal]

Meh, I've tried variations of all three, admittedly it's been a while since I've tried being "delusional" though. At various times I've given up (not too long ago I made a thread about the issue) either out of frustration or because I was busy with other things but I've never been able to give up for a long period of time, it usually only lasts a few weeks maybe a month or so and then it's back to being unhappy. Bitterness, is obviously not all that effective for me and doesn't make me feel good. And then sort of going about my life pretending that someone probably wants to be with me is something I just can't wrap my mind around. I just can't believe it. Even when I do get the courage to talk to some girl I usually end up giving up at the earliest sign that she's not 100% into me, or if there's any sign of another guy in the picture.

 

I don't know, none have really been all that effective for me.

 

I can understand how annoying it can feel. I think there is a fourth option, and that's to be more open minded. That's to say, you accept where and what you are now and make the most of it, and you maintain an attitude of, if something comes along, I'll give it a go.

 

As you're inexperienced you're also not bogged down with expectations, which makes you more of a "blank canvas" and so more able to develop and grow as a person in a relationship without the baggage of prior relationships. That's a plus point and something that some women will like. They won't be filling the boots of your previous lover.

 

When you say you give up at any sign of not being 100% into you, how does that manifest itself? Do you sulk? Get angry? It's the way we handle doubts and difficulties that can change the situation. Sometimes it's not how we fall that matters but how we land.

 

Lots of relationships don't start smoothly. There's some to and fro - a little rejection; a little chasing. Pulling pig tails and so on. That's the "game", and, often, a woman being a bit offish can be her sizing you up and if you don't back off respectfully then bounce back enthusiastically, she figures you're either too pushy or just not that into her. It's how people size each other up.

 

I know that in the past I've sublimated fears I've had into "she's just not that into me" and that way avoided the uncomfortable feeling that I had an issue to deal with but also avoided resolving that issue and lost the girl at the same time. Sometimes it can quite charming to admit a difficulty you have to a woman, so long as it's said with good humour, and that comes from having a feeling that you, and they, are fundamentally good.

 

So, um, I guess it all comes back to being open minded. Your open to offers, and making offers, and you're enjoying what you do have. If something bugs you, if you have something you're afraid of, you'll own it and ask for help, and accept that no-one has to help you.

 

And when you're talking to a woman and the conversation starts to really flow, just remember how damned beautiful she is and ask her questions about herself. Right now she is the most beautiful woman in the world. You can see that in her eyes. She smells delicious. So you just soak it up and enjoy it, whatever the outcome. And this is the thing - it's a process, a journey, not a destination, so enjoy the ride.

Edited November 27, 2011 by betterdeal

[Untouchable_Fire]

Notice that the women of LoveShack are completely silent on this topic. Which you can take to mean they either find it boring or it's way over their heads... or both. That basically is your problem. Women generally hate weakness and failure in men.

 

Seriously the best way for you to break out of your funk is to get some success. I have a friend who struggled mostly because he felt ugly. At 25 the guy just started using prostitutes... and eventually learned how to objectify the crap out of women. Unfortunately that has seemed to work. He has had 2 GF's in the last 5 years. The drawback is he doesn't care for them much and treats them like crap.... so it just doesn't last.

[PlumPrincess]

Notice that the women of LoveShack are completely silent on this topic. Which you can take to mean they either find it boring or it's way over their heads... or both. That basically is your problem. Women generally hate weakness and failure in men.

 

Seriously the best way for you to break out of your funk is to get some success. I have a friend who struggled mostly because he felt ugly. At 25 the guy just started using prostitutes... and eventually learned how to objectify the crap out of women. Unfortunately that has seemed to work. He has had 2 GF's in the last 5 years. The drawback is he doesn't care for them much and treats them like crap.... so it just doesn't last.

It's always the same topic - everybody else has it much better than me, the others are mean and to blame, because they don't find me attractive, poor me, poor me - and it's boring.

[Taramere]

Notice that the women of LoveShack are completely silent on this topic. Which you can take to mean they either find it boring or it's way over their heads... or both.

 

Give us a break, UF. Saturday night, varying time zones etc.

 

I like Cypress/25's comments about the difference between bitterness and cynicism. I think if you're a true cynic, then you tend to accept that most other people aren't going to care about you unless you give them what they consider to be a valid reason to care. A cynic knows that if they want to get somebody to listen to them, they'd better be prepared to give something back. Cynical people understand the meaning of the phrase quid pro quo perfectly well, and can work with it quite well.

 

Take the classic scenario of wealthy man taking pretty woman out for an expensive meal. The bitter guy will look at that and immediately launch into a rant about women using their looks to get special treatment, being whores etc etc. Men being suckers who "overvalue pussy" or try to "buy" pretty women with fancy meals and are taken on a ride. From the wealthy man's perspective, it's probably more a case of "I enjoy eating in this particular restaurant and I enjoy having the company of an attractive woman when doing so. The enjoyment of the meal and the company outweighs the cost in terms of time and the cost of the meal."

 

The bitter man can't, however, see a scenario like that through any lens other than his own frustrated, angry one. Everything is viewed in terms of men being taken as fools, suckers and victims by gold-diggers. Fresh evidence of men being victims is searched for avidly. Why do people grab victimhood for themselves? All too often it's not so much because they want to be rescued, but because they want an excuse to transform themselves into persecutors.

 

Bitter people (and this goes for men and women alike) who don't seem to understand quid pro quo at all. Often they have demonstrate in all kinds of ways that they have a sense of superiority. That they believe they are of higher value than other people. How is quid pro quo possible with somebody who values themselves very highly but places a low value on everybody else?

 

A person like that might not understand that, for instance, people just being prepared to listen and given them attention when they feel really crappy is of immense value. Feeling loved is of immense value in a relationship...but is often taken for granted as "the way it should be". Look at this board. Efforts, by strangers, to show care and concern for other strangers are generally taken for granted by the more embittered individuals. Deemed worthless, as evidenced by embittered people not even bothering to respond or thank people for their efforts. Or telling people off because it wasn't exactly what they wanted to hear.

 

Their view of other people and their contributions as worthless makes it impossible for them to enter into an adult quid pro quo scenario with them. So of course they go through life thinking that it's all give (by them) and take (from other people). Because in their heads, other people's contributions hold little value. That's part of what repels people about bitterness, I think.

 

ETA that's a commentary on the more vitriolic "bitter....all women are whores etc etc" threads. Which we do get a fair lot of on here.

 

I'm not getting the impression from Forty's posts that he's bitter in that sense. It's more like he's feeling that sense of other people not valuing what he has to offer. Feeling unappreciated. Perhaps a lot of that comes from focusing a bit too much on other males' commentary about being fed up of clinging women, women who chase them etc. Especially when those other men often come across as complete douchebags who don't like or respect the women they get involved with. I would guess, though, that most of those same men have probably gone through phases of feeling totally unsuccessful...and that that's why they make such a big deal of being pursued or clung to when it does finally happen.

Edited November 27, 2011 by Taramere

[fortyninethousand322]

I guess, I'm just angry/sad that out of all my friends and acquaintances, I only know of one other guy who's my age or older in the same boat as me (never kissed a girl, never had sex, never had a girlfriend, etc.) and he has a fairly good excuse being from a conservative South Asian culture that doesn't really encourage dating. And most of my friends aren't the most suave or great looking guys in the world. Most are just normal people. So I feel really behind, I mean haven't most people kissed by 23 (most probably have sex too I'm guessing)?

 

I remember specifically, when I was 20, hanging out with my friend who had just got back from school. I told him I had never kissed a girl before, he was shocked and told me I needed to take care of that by the end of the summer. Obviously that never happened, but that conversation has stuck with me to this day.

 

And then of course, the other thing is that I have no idea how to change things (other than betterdeal's idea of being more open minded). There's only so much about my life that I can improve.

Edited November 27, 2011 by fortyninethousand322