Barriers to a relationship

[ThsAmericanLife]

I started this list on another thread, and thought it should have its own topic...

 

This is especially timely because I found a message on my home voicemail tonight from my work colleague... he asked if we could get together this weekend. Says he broke up with his girlfriend.

 

I think I feel sick to my stomach... After all that... I don't want to go out with him... Time to take stock... so, here goes...

 

Here are some of the barriers I feel I've created... (barriers to relationships)

 

1) Being impatient with a man's pace. If he pushes for sex too soon, I'm out. If he feels the need to date other women while dating me (no matter how 'innocently') while he finds himself... he's out.

 

2) Age. I won't date men more than about +/- 5 years or so.

 

3) Past history of irresponsible behavior. Drugs, abuse, alcohol, finances, infidelity. That probably rules out a huge portion of the men in my age range.

 

4) Not looking for a committed relationship. Also rules out a huge portion of men in my age range. Most of them are coming out of divorces.

 

5) Religious or philosophical differences. More to do with their views of male/female roles. Not political or even based on one particular religion.

 

6) If we worked together.

 

Writing this down, I can see I've narrowed my options down to a pretty small subset. Considering the fact that I live in a small town doesn't help things.

 

Among this list, #6 is the one I've relaxed (obviously, the point of this thread). Some would argue that I need to relax #1 and #2.

 

I've tried to find a way to relax the first one... to not be so impatient or quick to judge... although, since coming here, I've learned that other people feel the same way about this... so probably not likely I'll relax this one unless he comes with references (friends/family).

 

I actually have relaxed #3 before... with not so great results.

 

Regarding the age thing... that goes along with #4 for me. It would be tough for a much younger man to convince me he's interested in a committed relationship. I won't date a much older man just on principle.

 

Considering my list has mostly to do with dating style, character, and relationship goals, I'd like to think my options aren't as limited as one might assume.

 

I've never ruled out a guy based on height, income, job choice, hair, or even ethnicity, for instance...

[ThsAmericanLife]

Chronic farting.............

 

yea, that might be a barrier...

 

one of my exes had that issue... he doesn't seem to have a problem getting dates.

 

He's got a good sense of humor about it though. On the other hand, it wasn't too funny when he tried the 'dutch oven' on me...

[daphne]

On the other hand, it wasn't too funny when he tried the 'dutch oven' on me...

 

That's grounds for breakup right there.

 

I pretty much agree with all but #2. I'll date a few years up or down more. I don't think you're asking too much. I'm not sure you'll find it, unless you're in your late 20's where there are more good options. Or you're very patient.

 

I'm reluctant to say that I won't date a guy who's dating others because I've multi dated. But the reality is, those that I continue to date tend to be one at a time. This is my preference. I've done the multi dating. I don't want to date the world. I just want one solid, compatible guy.

[ThsAmericanLife]

That's grounds for breakup right there.

 

I pretty much agree with all but #2. I'll date a few years up or down more. I don't think you're asking too much. I'm not sure you'll find it, unless you're in your late 20's where there are more good options. Or you're very patient.

 

I'm reluctant to say that I won't date a guy who's dating others because I've multi dated. But the reality is, those that I continue to date tend to be one at a time. This is my preference. I've done the multi dating. I don't want to date the world. I just want one solid, compatible guy.

 

My problem with multidating comes partly from my impatience... and my tendency to throw myself full on into pretty much anything I do.

 

Plus it doesn't lead to the feeling of intimacy I'm looking for.

 

I honestly don't know how to develop trust in someone who is dating other people as well as me. I wish I knew... It seems that people who are ok with it seem to do better.... but I don't have any data that shows how long their relationships last either. So not sure what is right.

[daphne]

My problem with multidating comes partly from my impatience... and my tendency to throw myself full on into pretty much anything I do.

 

Plus it doesn't lead to the feeling of intimacy I'm looking for.

 

I honestly don't know how to develop trust in someone who is dating other people as well as me. I wish I knew... It seems that people who are ok with it seem to do better.... but I don't have any data that shows how long their relationships last either. So not sure what is right.

 

I actually started doing it after being completely against it. A guy I thought was no longer looking turned his account back on. I pretty much felt I was at a huge disadvantage since I wasn't doing it and I felt everyone else was, so I switched it up. I had fun, but after a few dates I do prefer to focus on one guy. I think that it's hard to trust someone if you think they're looking for someone "better." But I have learned you still have to have the conversation before you make the assumptions of dating style.

 

The guy I'm currently seeing has thrown out the first missive to suggest exclusivity, and whenever he follows it up with a talk I'll be happy as a clam to turn my profile off.

[ThsAmericanLife]

1) Being impatient with a man's pace. If he pushes for sex too soon, I'm out. If he feels the need to date other women while dating me (no matter how 'innocently') while he finds himself... he's out.

 

What do you mean by pushing exactly? Say you go back to a guy's house on a second date and start making out. Then he tries to undress you. Even most decent men will push for sex in this scenario until a woman sets a boundary. The jerks will ignore the boundary.

 

I agree with you on multidating. I can't stand multidaters or their mentality toward people. I guess multidating is acceptable when it hasn't gone past a first date but beyond that point I'd be offended if a guy continued to see other women and me at the same time. I've been in this situation before and never again...

 

3) Past history of irresponsible behavior. Drugs, abuse, alcohol, finances, infidelity. That probably rules out a huge portion of the men in my age range.

 

Really? A lot of normal, healthy people experiment with drugs/alcohol in their youth. My boyfriend used to do coke occasionally (was never addicted) when he was 17-20 and I could care less since he hasn't in years. I think this is definitely a rule you could relax.

 

4) Not looking for a committed relationship. Also rules out a huge portion of men in my age range. Most of them are coming out of divorces.

 

Of course.

 

5) Religious or philosophical differences. More to do with their views of male/female roles. Not political or even based on one particular religion.

 

That seems fair. I will never date anyone who is religious.

 

6) If we worked together.

 

You mean even if it was in the past?

 

Well, it is a turnoff for me if the guy expects me to have all the boundaries and set the pace. Sounds crazy I know, but I expect that he will have some boundaries of his own. I don't trust men who will sleep with a woman after knowing her for a short time just because they can (or think they can). In other words, I question their ability to be faithful and show some discretion. I'm sure they exist, but I don't personally know any decent men who push for sex within a few dates with someone they really like. They only push for sex early if they aren't looking for a serious relationship.

 

So, this is kind of my BS barometer.

 

Multidating... When I was dating online, I tried to wrap my head around this one too. To this day, I don't understand why people can't just see one person at a time... decide... then move onto the next if they aren't compatible. I don't know how someone can establish trust when they multidate. Maybe someone can explain it to me again... cause I honestly don't get it.

 

Drugs/alcohol, etc... yes, alot of people were experimental in their youth. I was too. I guess I'm talking about people who had life-changing consequences because of a long history of it.

 

about co-workers... I haven't had the opportunity to date someone where I used to work at before. Usually, I'd end up moving to a different town and it was a moot point.

 

I decided it was time to think about relaxing my standards on very discretionary dating of co-workers after a number of my friends and colleagues met their SO's at work... a few in the same department. And this was at a very large, very well-respected international company. People seem to manage these things alot better than they did in the past... or so it seems.

 

So, when I came across my colleague... and it turned out we had alot in common... it didn't freak me out as much as it might have in the past (at least not for work reasons).

[ThsAmericanLife]

What concerns me the most is my reaction to his phone call.

 

I'm actually feeling naseous. Not a "oh, he's disgusting" kind of naseous.

 

More like a pure terror naseous. I have never had that reaction before. To anyone. No, not a pure terror, like I'm concerned for my health. Pure terror because of my emotions.

 

This is what I mean about some kind of wierd emotional PTSD after my fiancee's death. I went to grief counseling awhile back... it helped alot of things... but this feeling of terror whenever I'm faced with being emotionally vulnerable again... or liking someone...

 

It's not fear of rejection. It's not fear of being hurt. I have tons of great male friends, relatives, and co-workers...

 

I'm just terrified that I'll care about someone again and have them snatched from me with no warning... like what happened before.

 

My last serious relationship... I think it 'worked' because I never felt all that close to him. Yes, I enjoyed sex, we got along great, but I never had those in love feelings for him...

 

Anyway, something is wrong...

[ThsAmericanLife]

The guy I'm currently seeing has thrown out the first missive to suggest exclusivity, and whenever he follows it up with a talk I'll be happy as a clam to turn my profile off.

 

Good luck!

 

As for me... I can definately own up to over thinking things... I dunno. I'm starting to sound like an old-fogey. I guess I am when it comes to dating.

 

"In the good ol' days..."

 

... as for my co-worker... we have lots of opportunities to get to know each other. Still not sure if I'll take him up on his suggestion to get together this weekend. We are supposed to get together next week for something work related... although, I do appreciate him taking more care at separating work and something possibly romantic. We'll see... I have to be back on campus today. I know he has office hours today. Maybe I'll drop by and see how I feel then.

 

I think this other feeling I'm having is probably normal too. Just surprising. I'm impatient with my own progress at getting over my fiancee's death. I want to get on with my life already.

Edited November 23, 2011 by ThsAmericanLife

[Emilia]

What concerns me the most is my reaction to his phone call.

 

I'm actually feeling naseous. Not a "oh, he's disgusting" kind of naseous.

 

More like a pure terror naseous. I have never had that reaction before. To anyone. No, not a pure terror, like I'm concerned for my health. Pure terror because of my emotions.

 

This is what I mean about some kind of wierd emotional PTSD after my fiancee's death. I went to grief counseling awhile back... it helped alot of things... but this feeling of terror whenever I'm faced with being emotionally vulnerable again... or liking someone...

 

It's not fear of rejection. It's not fear of being hurt. I have tons of great male friends, relatives, and co-workers...

 

I'm just terrified that I'll care about someone again and have them snatched from me with no warning... like what happened before.

 

My last serious relationship... I think it 'worked' because I never felt all that close to him. Yes, I enjoyed sex, we got along great, but I never had those in love feelings for him...

 

Anyway, something is wrong...

 

I think it's pressure. He left his girlfriend so your relationship HAS to work with him even if he didn't leave her for you.

 

There is a guy in the office here with whom I get on very well and he likes me, he also has a girlfriend, they live together. I have absolutely no intention trying to get him split up with her because I don't want to be pressurised into a fully committed relationship straight away after when he looks to me to 'make it worth his while'. It's too much too soon.

[ThsAmericanLife]

I think it's pressure. He left his girlfriend so your relationship HAS to work with him even if he didn't leave her for you.

 

There is a guy in the office here with whom I get on very well and he likes me, he also has a girlfriend, they live together. I have absolutely no intention trying to get him split up with her because I don't want to be pressurised into a fully committed relationship straight away after when he looks to me to 'make it worth his while'. It's too much too soon.

 

hadn't thought of that. The pressure, that is.

 

I don't have any details at all about his last GF. How long they dated or anything like that. I do know it is a prerequisite for dating him for him to be 100% single. So it looks like that requirement has been met at least

 

I ought to consider that if he is truly single again, I won't be the only one he is probably eyeing... even though I'm the type to be very all or nothing about relationships, not everyone is. I think I'll get a better feel for things once I have the chance to talk to him.

 

alot of people just don't like being 'alone' around the holidays. It could be nothing more serious than that. I really don't know him ALL that well.

 

The fact that it appears that he thought of me first after his breakup can't be all bad. Sounds like I'm first in line at least

[ThsAmericanLife]

Other nice guys I've run for the hills from the past few years...

 

- the fellow colleague at my grad school (we had the same advisor). 15 years younger. He chased me for 2 years. Couldn't do it. This is a guy who made it into the second round of astronaut training school. Sent me flowers the day after he met me at a conference. We enjoyed alot of the same activities.

 

Ultimately, I was terrified he'd dump me for someone younger when he was ready to start a family. Okay, and he LOVED pro-wrestling.

 

- The super gorgeous co-worker at my former company (really, women's eyes get all fluttery when his name comes up). I tried getting past his looks, but just couldn't.

 

Again, I had it in my mind that his interest in me was 'target practice' after his divorce... no matter how much in common we had. The sad thing was that I realized that I was discriminating AGAINST him because of his looks and realized it wasn't fair. Didn't change the fact that I just didn't feel secure with him. He seemed hurt when I told him I couldn't continue seeing him. He was nothing but a gentleman and extremely sweet the whole time. It was me who was f*ed up.

 

He met someone a year or two later and he has since remarried.

 

So, yea. I've shot myself in the foot more than a few times in the past few years.

 

I could dream up some excuse, I'm sure, to avoid actually dating my current colleague.... but it feels a little like a repeat of the above. Was he overly flirty with me when he was with his GF? Yes. I think so. But I jumped to this conclusion about him without any other knowledge.

 

Seems like another justification to avoid getting romantically attached again. Not sure why I have this problem with romantic options and not my friends/family. Or, let's say... I'm ok dating someone, spending lots of time and investing in the relationship, being monogamous... all that... I just don't want to have those in-love feelings.

 

Not to mention... I am in the process of finding a different place to live... so that might be reason enough to avoid this... screw the over analysis...

Edited November 23, 2011 by ThsAmericanLife

[laotzu]

What's the risk? You should absolutely get together with him, for a variety of reasons. It's not as though getting together with him necessitates anything other than getting know him, and trying to understand if what turned you off about him before was legitimate or not. Perhaps the reason he wasn't explicit about saying he had a girlfriend previously was because he knew the relationship was nearing its end, and he was hoping to be able to ask you out without having to lie about it.

 

You're absolutely over-thinking this - accept his offer, and try to use your boundaries in a more mobile manner. You don't need to "have them up" all the time, just have them available.

[thatone]

I think it's pressure. He left his girlfriend so your relationship HAS to work with him even if he didn't leave her for you.

 

There is a guy in the office here with whom I get on very well and he likes me, he also has a girlfriend, they live together. I have absolutely no intention trying to get him split up with her because I don't want to be pressurized into a fully committed relationship straight away after when he looks to me to 'make it worth his while'. It's too much too soon.

 

that line of thinking is pretty accurate in men, and not just in relationships.

 

i tell people all the time the same thing about being self employed, when explaining why i have no backup plan or desire to finish degree(s) in my spare time...

 

"this HAS to work"

 

i have said that exact thing using the identical words to lots of women, albeit not about relationships.

 

Seems like another justification to avoid getting romantically attached again. Not sure why I have this problem with romantic options and not my friends/family. Or, let's say... I'm ok dating someone, spending lots of time and investing in the relationship, being monogamous... all that... I just don't want to have those in-love feelings.

 

Not to mention... I am in the process of finding a different place to live... so that might be reason enough to avoid this... screw the over analysis...

 

but the men who want relationships do want those feelings. and they're gonna pick up on your distance, so even if you find one above all other odds, they're going to start getting frustrated eventually.

 

and when you add in the assumptions about men that so many women make (many of which are misguided to the point of being funny), the odds start getting awful slim...

 

looking at your own list...

 

1) pushing for sex. men can't read your mind. on a first date, no matter how well it goes? i won't push at all. second date on? yeah, if it goes as well as the first. the responsibility isn't on me to decide for both people, especially if the other one won't even say what they want, which is often the case. if the pace is gonna be different and she can communicate that, it's fine. i get the refusal to deal with multi daters, i don't do that either.

 

2) ok

 

3) much too extensive a list. divorces ruin people financially all the time. how many men are you going to meet in their 40s who aren't divorced? drugs/infidelity/etc fine. i've been wealthy and all but homeless, and all points in between. if anything that experience is positive, and people who never stepped outside of the 9 to 5 norm and always did what they were told are LESS mentally mature than those who have, the ones who have failed and had to get themselves out of it have something to be proud of.

 

4) but you just said that you don't want a committed relationship. you want someone to commit to you but you want to keep certain things out of the equation? the only reason men want relationships are those emotional attachments to women. short of that they could just chase casual sex and hang out with their sisters and/or female friends for activity partners.

 

5) i'm more picky on this sort of thing, not so much about gender roles (but then i'm not outside of my traditional one, either). i'll date catholics, but not protestants, and someone who is politically conservative in this day and age is going to have to convince me that they're not an idiot.

 

6) what's wrong with a former co worker? i get not wanting to be involved with current ones. but former ones who cares? that would be as silly as me wondering what a former employer thinks of me. screw them, if they want to tell me what i can and can't do they can pay me again, short of that i do what i want.

Edited November 24, 2011 by thatone

[ThsAmericanLife]

What's the risk? You should absolutely get together with him, for a variety of reasons. It's not as though getting together with him necessitates anything other than getting know him, and trying to understand if what turned you off about him before was legitimate or not. Perhaps the reason he wasn't explicit about saying he had a girlfriend previously was because he knew the relationship was nearing its end, and he was hoping to be able to ask you out without having to lie about it.

 

You're absolutely over-thinking this - accept his offer, and try to use your boundaries in a more mobile manner. You don't need to "have them up" all the time, just have them available.

 

That's very good advice. What is nice about this is that I have the opportunity to informally see him on a regular basis... we both have lots of direct and indirect ways to check each other out and establish some level of trust.

 

I popped by his office yesterday, but he wasn't there. I don't want to bug him on Thanksgiving with a phone call, but I followed up with an email to tell him I got his message, and that we can chat on Friday.

 

He told me the other night that he was having Thanksgiving with his family (they live in the area)... his father died two years ago, and he moved back into the area to be with his family. He is firmly committed to making a 'go' of it here.

 

I think that is another reason I'm holding back... here I am with one foot out the door (moving) and someone comes along. Then there is the potential age difference.

 

He looks to be within 'shooting distance' of my age... it turns out he is 36 (he dropped it into a conversation after I originally scoped him out). Eleven years younger. I haven't told him my age. I originally told him that I didn't know how old he was and didn't care... but I do care. I care because *I'm* insecure about our age difference and wonder about our life experiences... NOW who is the one not being 100% honest (ugh)

 

ok... how many paragraphs?? Overthinking again?? yea, busted!!:cool:

[ThsAmericanLife]

but the men who want relationships do want those feelings. and they're gonna pick up on your distance, so even if you find one above all other odds, they're going to start getting frustrated eventually..

 

Really? Even if we have good sex, I treat them well, and am faithful to them? What are they missing? What kind of distance are you talking about?

 

Yes, I agree that the only person who is really being shortchanged in that arrangement would be ME, since I'm not 'in love'... But that goes along with my other feelings... love is an 'action', not a feeling. Maybe 'love' will grow over time. Who knows? I want the commitment first.

 

If I had a dime for every person, man or woman, who runs their life based on 'feelings', I'd be a millionaire. Online dating is full of people looking for their so called 'soul mate'... whom they dump the minute they don't have those in-love feelings... rather than take a look inside... or those who don't pursue relationships with people because they don't have some instant 'spark'.

 

Those are the ones I worry about the most. Easy in. Easy out. Probably the reason they are my age and single. They 'sparked' it with the wrong person while they were married... or they are searching for some unattainable state of perfection usually related to looks (yes, I realize how silly that statement sounds!!). I'm looking for a state of bearable non-'spark' with someone with good values. That is how cynical I am about most people's values, I guess. That the ones who are available are probably available because they have poor values... so give me an average guy with decent values. I'll take the non-spark or maybe even prefer it.

 

and when you add in the assumptions about men that so many women make (many of which are misguided to the point of being funny), the odds start getting awful slim...

 

Yes, I think there are at least 50/50 odds that the men I meet in my demographic (40-50) are commitment challenged.... and are probably in the spot they are because they thought with their d*cks. Not a good investment. Sure, there are definately men who were done wrong by a woman who fell short on her commitment too (lets assume half). Once they get out of their cloud of bitterness, those men are the perfect candidates for me.

 

looking at your own list...

 

 

1) pushing for sex. men can't read your mind. on a first date, no matter how well it goes? i won't push at all. second date on? yeah, if it goes as well as the first. the responsibility isn't on me to decide for both people, especially if the other one won't even say what they want, which is often the case. if the pace is gonna be different and she can communicate that, it's fine. i get the refusal to deal with multi daters, i don't do that either.

...

 

I tell men all the time what my expectations are. They push anyway. I know why they do it. It isn't attractive. But that is just me. I know I'm an outlier in this area. It is the best way I've determined to see if they hold double standards about sexuality... without actually having to sleep with them to find out. It is also the best way I've determined to see how well they resist temptation and can delay gratification. Two very important life skills for both men and women.

 

 

3) much too extensive a list. divorces ruin people financially all the time. how many men are you going to meet in their 40s who aren't divorced? drugs/infidelity/etc fine. i've been wealthy and all but homeless, and all points in between. if anything that experience is positive, and people who never stepped outside of the 9 to 5 norm and always did what they were told are LESS mentally mature than those who have, the ones who have failed and had to get themselves out of it have something to be proud of....

 

My fiancee's finances were ruined by his divorce. I was originally a little stand offish... but could see that the reasons why it happened were not related to anything long term. Prior to his divorce, and with me, he exhibited fiscal responsibility (except for the lack of prenup... which also exhibited his trusting nature... which I absolutely loved about him).

 

Regarding the other stuff?? I think this is a function of the dating pool I'm in. I've come across way more than my share of guys with hard luck stories about alcoholism, drug abuse, etc. I'm not interested in finding a project. If it is more than 10 years in the past, I'd consider giving them the same benefit of the doubt that the US gov gives us with background checks on security clearances though

 

4) but you just said that you don't want a committed relationship. you want someone to commit to you but you want to keep certain things out of the equation? the only reason men want relationships are those emotional attachments to women. short of that they could just chase casual sex and hang out with their sisters and/or female friends for activity partners.

....

 

oh, but I DO want a committed relationship... good sex, companionship, all that. I just don't want the in-love feelings... so that if/when life separates us, I won't be so devastated. It also keeps me from being worried about the 'competition'.

 

6) what's wrong with a former co worker? i get not wanting to be involved with current ones. but former ones who cares? that would be as silly as me wondering what a former employer thinks of me. screw them, if they want to tell me what i can and can't do they can pay me again, short of that i do what i want.

 

I'm ok with that. I just haven't come across any.

Edited November 24, 2011 by ThsAmericanLife

[Els]

Well, it is a turnoff for me if the guy expects me to have all the boundaries and set the pace. Sounds crazy I know, but I expect that he will have some boundaries of his own. I don't trust men who will sleep with a woman after knowing her for a short time just because they can (or think they can).

 

I personally feel that this is a reasonable expectation, and I can state with certainty that you're not crazy, those men exist. This is a requirement of my own as well, and I've not had too much trouble finding it. I'm not too sure how common they are in the USA though. One thing I've noticed is that people in American culture ridicule these men and make them out to be 'gay', 'asexual', or 'wimps' - hence discouraging this sort of decent behaviour, so it may be harder to find this sort of man there.

[ThsAmericanLife]

I personally feel that this is a reasonable expectation, and I can state with certainty that you're not crazy, those men exist. This is a requirement of my own as well, and I've not had too much trouble finding it. I'm not too sure how common they are in the USA though. One thing I've noticed is that people in American culture ridicule these men and make them out to be 'gay', 'asexual', or 'wimps' - hence discouraging this sort of decent behaviour, so it may be harder to find this sort of man there.

 

I've heard that.. from many expats too. One reason I'm looking to move out of the US. Not sure what it is about our culture that pressures people to get involved sexually so early... before establishing intimacy. I'm not even talking about a long period of time. 2-3 months should be all it takes if they are seeing each other at least once a week.

 

I agree that men do get accused of being less than a 'man' if he holds off. Women are to blame too. Not sure what they'd enjoy about having to fend off a guy who obviously doesn't seem to respect them... and is only thinking of his needs. That is how it comes across to me. However, if you read the threads here.. there are lots of women who feel the guy isn't that into them unless he is all over them. I suppose I'd understand that in our multi-dater world. Everyone is looking to seal the deal ASAP...

 

Then they complain they can't have or maintain a LTR. Hmm... related? I wonder.

Edited November 24, 2011 by ThsAmericanLife

[Els]

Well, I would not put it quite in that manner. Some women certainly make it known that they want sex early, and in that case I don't see anything wrong with the man wanting it as well. As long as it's consensual.

 

I come from an Asian culture, where many men do not even get sex before marriage, and that is considered okay. So it tends not to be something that men 'expect' or feel that they, as the gentleman, should push for. I feel that this is one of the plusses about our culture, though I would be the first to admit that there are negatives to the cultural views on sex and genders as well.

 

I would wager a guess that the major thing about American culture is that some people believe that they are entitled to instantly get whatever they want. Key words are "NOW", "ME", and "WANT", hence leading to the dissipation of marriage, the increase in early sex, the advice to bolt at the slightest mistake or hint of incompatibility.

 

But I digress.

[ThsAmericanLife]

The ladies should be able to answer this. Holding off has left me empty handed for 34 years and now I'm a 'creep' for not having enough experience according to the one lady that has aaccepted a date with me this year. I've been called the other names too by both men and women.

 

That's not nice. Noone deserves to be called names.

 

Why were you holding off? Religious reasons? Some people don't believe in sex before marriage.

 

One of my girlfriends was 31 and a virgin. She had ovarian cancer as a young woman (19) and then spent the majority of her 20's pursuing school and career. She also came from a very strict religious background...

 

So she came to me for advice. When she met someone she cared about, she asked me if she should have sex with him.

 

I told her why not? It helped her break the 'virginity' shackles... Even for women, it becomes a weight around their necks when carries on past the point that society considers normal... and truth be told... she wasn't nearly as religious as her backround might suggest.

 

That said, there are still very many people (both men and women) that consider sexuality to be sacred and not done outside of marriage. I respect them.

[ThsAmericanLife]

Well, I would not put it quite in that manner. Some women certainly make it known that they want sex early, and in that case I don't see anything wrong with the man wanting it as well. As long as it's consensual.

 

I come from an Asian culture, where many men do not even get sex before marriage, and that is considered okay. So it tends not to be something that men 'expect' or feel that they, as the gentleman, should push for. I feel that this is one of the plusses about our culture, though I would be the first to admit that there are negatives to the cultural views on sex and genders as well.

 

I would wager a guess that the major thing about American culture is that some people believe that they are entitled to instantly get whatever they want. Key words are "NOW", "ME", and "WANT", hence leading to the dissipation of marriage, the increase in early sex, the advice to bolt at the slightest mistake or hint of incompatibility.

 

But I digress.

 

thanks for clarifying I agree... for people who share the same view on timing, then there is nothing wrong with that.

 

Just bugs me when I'm seeing a guy exclusively (because that is the only way I date), and I tell him I want time to get to know him... and I get the pressure WAY early to give him sex (or else)... and the 'or else' shows it's head with the guy multidating or having sex with others while I'm trying to get to know him.

 

It leaves the impression he is not really interested in getting to know me at all... just more interested in waiting me out and using other women to fill in the blanks in his love life while he does. Ick.

[ThsAmericanLife]

How can I do the most intimate act between man and women with someone I don't know and trust? I'm not very religious actually. It's not good to be a man and inexperiened and this cause my last date to end in a very bad way. I was told point blank on more than one occasion, it's a terrible thing for a man and to get a hooker.

 

It is probably not something you need to bring up early on. Besides the fact you've never been married, why would you feel the need to go on about your sex life with someone you don't know well?

 

I dated a man who I found out after having sex that he was a virgin. I had no idea... none whatsoever. He was a great dancer, funny, and loved to talk politics and world events. I think it was his dancing though, that got me. He ended up switching jobs, and we broke up.

 

Believe it or not, every person has to 'learn' their partner... no matter how much 'experience' they have.

[thatone]

Really? Even if we have good sex, I treat them well, and am faithful to them? What are they missing? What kind of distance are you talking about?

 

it'll manifest itself in little ways. always does. when i'm attracted to someone more than they are me after a certain period of time i'll do something or reveal something and the response won't be what i'm expecting. it can't be hidden.

 

Yes, I agree that the only person who is really being shortchanged in that arrangement would be ME, since I'm not 'in love'... But that goes along with my other feelings... love is an 'action', not a feeling. Maybe 'love' will grow over time. Who knows? I want the commitment first.

 

If I had a dime for every person, man or woman, who runs their life based on 'feelings', I'd be a millionaire. Online dating is full of people looking for their so called 'soul mate'... whom they dump the minute they don't have those in-love feelings... rather than take a look inside... or those who don't pursue relationships with people because they don't have some instant 'spark'.

 

Those are the ones I worry about the most. Easy in. Easy out. Probably the reason they are my age and single. They 'sparked' it with the wrong person while they were married... or they are searching for some unattainable state of perfection usually related to looks (yes, I realize how silly that statement sounds!!). I'm looking for a state of bearable non-'spark' with someone with good values. That is how cynical I am about most people's values, I guess. That the ones who are available are probably available because they have poor values... so give me an average guy with decent values. I'll take the non-spark or maybe even prefer it.

 

 

 

 

yeah i get that, asking for commitment in the form of not dating or looking for other people is easy, that's a one or two month hurdle. but commitment should be more than that.

 

the thing that comes to mind with the last girl i went out with that lasted more than a couple of months was i revealed a business problem to her about 3 months in. it wasn't the end of the world, but the partners involved were arguing about how to solve a problem. the people with more control than me made a different decision than the one i wanted, i wasn't happy about it.

 

the response i got from her was indecision and confusion. she was more concerned with how all that i was telling her might affect herself. a little sympathy/reassurance would be nice...

 

the breakup wasn't long after. even though i wasn't thinking it those 'feelings' told me what i was looking at, someone who had one foot in the door the entire time, and no matter what happened with or to me, her first thought would ALWAYS be about herself, and she'd worry about me later, if at all.

 

i don't think anyone can hide that indefinitely. it will always come to the surface.

Edited November 24, 2011 by thatone

[ThsAmericanLife]

it'll manifest itself in little ways. always does. when i'm attracted to someone more than they are me after a certain period of time i'll do something or reveal something and the response won't be what i'm expecting. it can't be hidden.

 

 

 

yeah i get that, asking for commitment in the form of not dating or looking for other people is easy, that's a one or two month hurdle. but commitment should be more than that.

 

the thing that comes to mind with the last girl i went out with that lasted more than a couple of months was i revealed a business problem to her about 3 months in. it wasn't the end of the world, but the partners involved were arguing about how to solve a problem. the people with more control than me made a different decision than the one i wanted, i wasn't happy about it.

 

the response i got from her was indecision and confusion. she was more concerned with how all that i was telling her might affect herself. a little sympathy/reassurance would be nice...

 

the breakup wasn't long after. even though i wasn't thinking it those 'feelings' told me what i was looking at, someone who had one foot in the door the entire time, and no matter what happened with or to me, her first thought would ALWAYS be about herself, and she'd worry about me later, if at all.

 

i don't think anyone can hide that indefinitely. it will always come to the surface.

 

Hmm... ok, where do I start.

 

The 'more into' thoughts... As you probably have learned from the short time you know me... I invest in my friends/family and many other things, regardless of passing feelings.

 

I think you are confusing 'in love' feeling with level of investment, which is not the case for me. That is the case for alot of people, for sure. It sure does make investing in someone alot easier when you are 'in love' with them... can't argue with that.

 

It is the things that some people equate with being 'in love' that concern me.

 

My concern is about those who think love is a feeling.. and the minute they are not 'in love' they hit the road. Now, there are lots of reasons to not be 'in love'. If the person is disrespectful or mean... yea, leave a toxic arrangment.

 

I'm talking about the ones who have to have that chemistry or passion 24/7 or else they are out the door. The people who put 'soul mate' on their profile were instantly out of consideration...although, you can tell that LOTS of men were ruled out for all kinds of reasons... hence my dilemma.

 

With my colleague, I'm afraid to tell him my age and be 'rejected' again (yes, he had a GF, but it still feels like rejection).

 

I'm going to hang out with him, but I think the attraction is going to have to be quite strong for me to open up with him about that. Next time I tell a guy the age difference doesn't matter, maybe I should tell the truth.

[Mme. Chaucer]

My dear,

 

Everything you write makes good sense and is perfectly reasonable.

 

I believe that you are mostly terrified about opening up to someone only to have them snatched away again, after your loss of your fiance. So all of your criteria and boundaries, though they are reasonable, have extra weight attached to them.

 

But you are going to get together, right? I think you will be able to listen to your interior voice and know whether it is okay for you to invest a little further, or not.

 

The whole issue about when / if to get sexual: I believe that when something is "right" between two people, then each one is already involved in a kind of give and take about when would be the time to let sexuality into the mix. I hope that the man would be open to your comfort level, and that you (general you) would be listening to your inner self and be able to "know" whether the time was right or wrong to get more intimate.

 

Reading LS can probably really work a number on a lot of us when it comes to how and when to start being sexual with a new person. There is so much judgement, ego involved, fear, power struggle - that there seems to be NO room for the people involved to listen to their inner voices and to follow what they would hear … if they could hear it.

[thatone]

ok, i see where you're coming from now. and i agree, the 'chemistry' types are not typically the most stable people.

 

but on the other hand if you're going to rule that out you have to be more open minded and examine each case individually. the bottom line is there's no way to know without opening up a bit.

 

the funny thing is we teach kids not to be prejudiced against others but we're all sitting here as grown adults trying to figure out a formula that works to prejudge people with. and it's not like that's optional, if you don't prejudge people they're going to keep prejudging you so you have to play their game, either by lying to them or prejudging them based on their judgment of you.

 

what a stupid species we are.

 

i blame sitting here listening to tool/46 & 2 while typing on the above philosophical observation .