PlumPrincess Posted November 26, 2011 Posted November 26, 2011 Growing my hair, for example. I was oh-so-happily blessed with thin, greasy hair. The longer it gets, the greasier and flatter it goes. So, which is better... short, clean hair with body or long hair that looks and feels disgusting? I have to wash my hair every day. It's no fun, but you have to do what you have to do.
PlumPrincess Posted November 26, 2011 Posted November 26, 2011 Alot of men who are struggling with dating could take that same advice. I have given the same advice to other guys, but honestly, when you're a woman and in a dance class because you really want to learn how to dance and less because as a means to meet guys (which is nice when it happens, but well, it's not the primary goal), then having to deal with these shy and nervous guys from a close distance is a BIG PITA!
PlumPrincess Posted November 26, 2011 Posted November 26, 2011 No. Because I see short, overweight, nerdy girls who are happy and confident still get passed over. They get sad, but they're rarely "negative about it and seldom whiney. More just kind of a resigned "Oh well, that's how it is." I'm one of the few who speaks out, sometimes strongly, about the hypocrisy of it. That's actually a very interesting statement, and one I've never really come across before. What you say is very true... My core nature is quirky, nice and nerdy. My natural inclination around guys is to converse with them about common interests and relate to them, be interested in what they have to say-essentially, put them at ease. And the conversation has almost always ended up in them complaining how girls don't pay attention to them, and how can they get the number of the hot girl over there? Huh. So, essentially, I'm treating guys the same way they say they treat women they like... and then I'm getting friend-zoned in favor of a hotter chick who projects mystery and sexuality, in the same way those same guys are getting rejected. I've sometimes considered taking the advice we give unsuccessful men ("be confidence and a little cocky") and applying to myself, since I'm getting friend-zoned and rejected in much the same way. But the advice never struck me as quite right, like there was a missing element. What you say, about actually being a tiny bit bitchier, and putting on a "Hmm are you impressing me yet" attitude... it makes so much sense! Wow. Just-what a revelation!! You come a bit across as doormat-nice and passive-aggressive when dealing with these guys.
Taramere Posted November 26, 2011 Posted November 26, 2011 That's a pretty good analysis! And I especially liked the bold part! You just made me aware of something that is quite true! Thanks! You're welcome! It's remembering to do it that's the tricky part. I think relaxation techniques are incredibly valuable and important. One time when I was doing a training course where our every move was being scrutinised, this woman advised me to use an Alexander Technique method for relaxing and feeling more centred. It was something along the lines of pulling yourself up in the seat but at the same time feeling gravity pulling your bottom into the seat. I remember doing it and feeling the difference straight away.
counterman Posted November 26, 2011 Posted November 26, 2011 You're welcome! It's remembering to do it that's the tricky part. I think relaxation techniques are incredibly valuable and important. One time when I was doing a training course where our every move was being scrutinised, this woman advised me to use an Alexander Technique method for relaxing and feeling more centred. It was something along the lines of pulling yourself up in the seat but at the same time feeling gravity pulling your bottom into the seat. I remember doing it and feeling the difference straight away. I think I could use those techniques... I come across as really serious and really tense, even when I don't mean to. My friends have pointed this out and I understand why some people wouldn't want to be near me, even though I think I'm pretty easy to get along with. I can feel strain in my shoulders and my neck area sometimes. Is there anything you could recommend? It's so important how people perceive you. Even though I know how I am on the inside, people might not see that. I think the OP's work mates see her from a certain frame of reference, she needs to break out of that frame of reference, so that they can see her in a new light. It's like one of the girl friends who is one of the guys... she's interested in one of her guy friends but he only sees her as a friend, so she spruces her image up and starts being more of a challenge and not so much listen to his stories and complaints.
Taramere Posted November 26, 2011 Posted November 26, 2011 I think I could use those techniques... I come across as really serious and really tense, even when I don't mean to. My friends have pointed this out and I understand why some people wouldn't want to be near me, even though I think I'm pretty easy to get along with. I can feel strain in my shoulders and my neck area sometimes. Is there anything you could recommend? I don't know much about the Alexander Technique beyond what that woman demonstrated to me. It's one of those things I keep meaning to find out more about. However, I don't know if you've ever tried a self hypnosis CD....but those are fantastic ways of relaxing. It takes you through the physical relaxation thing step by step...and you feel great at the end of it. I tried a Pilates class recently, and I think Yoga and stretch classes are also good for learning to relax. My only problem is I find them a bit boring...and I'd rather just listen to a hypnotherapy CD (eg you get god relaxation ones) before dropping off to sleep. However, I suppose the advantage of the class activities is that you're "forcing" yourself into a state of relaxation around other people. Relaxing your facial muscles is really important as well...and the hypnosis CDs take you through that too. I bet if you were to listen to one, you'd be astounded by where you found the tension was, and how much of a difference it makes when you consciously relax.
ThsAmericanLife Posted November 26, 2011 Posted November 26, 2011 I have given the same advice to other guys, but honestly, when you're a woman and in a dance class because you really want to learn how to dance and less because as a means to meet guys (which is nice when it happens, but well, it's not the primary goal), then having to deal with these shy and nervous guys from a close distance is a BIG PITA! PITA?? Not following. I'm not suggesting men take dance classes as a way to meet women (if it happens, great, if not, they are still learning something valuable). I'm saying they can develop more confidence around women in general... and develop awareness of their bodies. There is a very awkward young man in the beginner ballet class, for instance. He's early 20's and clearly very shy. Something about dance just forces you to put yourself out there. Learning to do that in a 'safe' environment where you are not being rejected sexually seems like a good start. I see differences in his demeanor already... and he's only been at it for a few months.
Taramere Posted November 26, 2011 Posted November 26, 2011 PITA?? Not following. I'm not suggesting men take dance classes as a way to meet women (if it happens, great, if not, they are still learning something valuable). I'm saying they can develop more confidence around women in general... and develop awareness of their bodies. There is a very awkward young man in the beginner ballet class, for instance. He's early 20's and clearly very shy. Something about dance just forces you to put yourself out there. Learning to do that in a 'safe' environment where you are not being rejected sexually seems like a good start. I see differences in his demeanor already... and he's only been at it for a few months. I totally agree. Dance is something that's missing from a lot of people's lives these days. I keep meaning to get back to Ceroc classes as they were a lot of fun...and I think it's a great way for men and women to interact.
ThsAmericanLife Posted November 27, 2011 Posted November 27, 2011 I totally agree. Dance is something that's missing from a lot of people's lives these days. I keep meaning to get back to Ceroc classes as they were a lot of fun...and I think it's a great way for men and women to interact. There are also some theories that dance, and physical movement in general, can be a release mechanism for trauma related muscle memory too.
missgangrene Posted November 27, 2011 Posted November 27, 2011 double standard n. a set of principles that allows greater freedom to one person or group than to another It's only a double standard if Ariadne expects those qualities yet lacks them herself.
johan Posted November 27, 2011 Posted November 27, 2011 I had no idea you were a 30 yo virgin. That was my plan. Looks like it worked perfectly. Until now. Dammit.
Avarage Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 Geez, you go home for a holiday seems people go on a posting spree. Anyways, I don't understand where everybody keeps telling vehrzon (am I the only one thinking verizon everytime I read that name?) she's gotta change this and that. I think she's fine. Sure things ain't working out now but that don't mean they're broke. She shouldn't have to go changing anything.
Sanman Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 Geez, you go home for a holiday seems people go on a posting spree. Anyways, I don't understand where everybody keeps telling vehrzon (am I the only one thinking verizon everytime I read that name?) she's gotta change this and that. I think she's fine. Sure things ain't working out now but that don't mean they're broke. She shouldn't have to go changing anything. I think about the band vertical horizon. As to the point, there is nothing wrong with striving to put your best foot forward (working on yourself) and than putting yourself out there. I am constantly trying to better myself in some way. It does not mean I am not dateable now.
soserious1 Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 Warning... no pity or quarter given because you are female I'm going to give you the same advice that is routinely given to men on these boards who post moaning because they cannot attract women 1. stand nude in front of a full length mirror in a strongly lit room... be honest here, are you toned and tight or are there lumps, bulges or rolls of fat? You can't fix everything but you can control your weight and greatly improve your curves with a clean diet & vigorous exercise program. Plastic surgery is also an option that many consider. 2. Grooming & clothing - Do you go to work sporting the female version of the geek uniform? Is your hair attractively cut, colored and styled daily or do you just slam it back into a low pony? What about your skin care & makeup? What about your teeth are they ultra white and straight? Invest some money in a makeover with the goal of presenting yourself in a business hot manner. 3. Acting like one of the guys- in your quest to be taken seriously, to have your knowledge respected have you tolerated/ engaged in comments/ conversations and activities that would cause your male work peers to view you as one of the boys instead of as a desirable, potential datable single woman? And finally.... Many people in IT make huge money & have a lot of options when it comes to dating, if all of the above doesn't yield results it may well mean that the men you currently desire are out of your league, you might have to lower your standards, be open & receptive to approaches from men who might not make nearly as much money as you do or who might have more limited earning potential. It's very simple really, when the going gets tough, the tough get going, either step up your game or lower your standards, just like men have to do.
Author verhrzn Posted November 28, 2011 Author Posted November 28, 2011 Many people in IT make huge money & have a lot of options when it comes to dating, if all of the above doesn't yield results it may well mean that the men you currently desire are out of your league, you might have to lower your standards, be open & receptive to approaches from men who might not make nearly as much money as you do or who might have more limited earning potential. That's never been a problem for me. The only thing I ask of a guy is that he be able to financially support himself; I don't mind at all if I make substantially more money than him. Stand nude in front of a full length mirror in a strongly lit room... be honest here, are you toned and tight or are there lumps, bulges or rolls of fat? You can't fix everything but you can control your weight and greatly improve your curves with a clean diet & vigorous exercise program. Plastic surgery is also an option that many consider. I'm not toned at all.... and I'm never going to be. I have a personal trainer I meet with once a month. I also work out 3 times a week (half an hour to 45 minutes of cardio and 3 sets of 4 different weight lifting exercises) on top of martial arts and dancing. I've been doing it for over a year... and even though my body fat percentage has gone done, I haven't dropped even A SINGLE inch or pound. The best explanation my trainer could come up with is my body type endomorphic, meaning I not only put on weight really easy but it's nearly impossible for me to loose it, even with diet and exercise. It's not really surprising, given my genetics... My mother worked out like a fiend (we're talking hours every day) and could never lose weight, though once she got to a certain threshold she never gained weight either. (Overweight but not obese.) So.... nope, being skinny/toned, never gonna happen. I've battled with the idea of plastic surgery, but 1) it's incredibly expensive 2) it's a dangerous procedure for purely cosmetic reasons 3) liposuction is not permanent, so even if I got it all sucked out it'd come right back because that's my body 4) non-plastic surgery doctors think I'm crazy for even considering it, since I'm not even "that" overweight. I'm just chunky/soft. They tell me to consider therapy instead. 2. Grooming & clothing - Do you go to work sporting the female version of the geek uniform? Is your hair attractively cut, colored and styled daily or do you just slam it back into a low pony? What about your skin care & makeup? What about your teeth are they ultra white and straight? Invest some money in a makeover with the goal of presenting yourself in a business hot manner. I wear some make-up to work (concealer, foundation, lip gloss and eyeliner) and my usual outfits consist of nice jeans and a fitted blouse. My workplace is the kind of place where if you dress up to the 9's, you get some weird looks... It's actually more off-putting than it is attractive. My hot new coworker has the kind of style that is "hot casual," which I can't pull off but fits in with the atmosphere. Really, though, as I've said before... I really can't do much more beyond my physical appearance than what I'm already doing. If guys don't find me attractive at this point because of my looks..... without some drastic surgery I don't think they're ever going to. I'm just resigned to going into work tomorrow and sitting sad and ignored at lunch while the guys flock to her. I've just sort of given up about the whole thing.... guys are going to forever want the hot girls, and there's really nothing I can do except ignore them when they bother me about her and accept my eternal single hood.
Els Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 It's kind of interesting how the rabid 'men and women should be 50.00000% equal' posters are the ones advocating that the OP should not be able to expect a man who is on par with her career and appearance-wise, because the 'leagues' for men and women are different. What happened to your 'good for the goose, good for the gander' approach, soserious? What happened to the 'injustice' done by having more men in armies? So some 'differences' between men and women are okay, it's perfectly fine that the OP should have to do all that to attract overweight men who are dressed in the 'male geek uniform' and earn as much as her, but drafting men because they have greater physical strength isn't? Ah, well. There are male misandrists, I suppose it isn't too uncommon to find a female misogynist around here.
Els Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 OP, please do not consider plastic surgery at such an age, when you don't even have any significant deformities or abnormalities. The doctors are right to discourage you. I think your appearance is fine. You're not overweight, your face is pleasant, and you look quite feminine. Please try and look for men outside your company instead.
Wolf18 Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 If the OP needs validation for her looks, she can just go to a bar or night club and revel at the fact of model-looking men tripping over eachother for five minutes of her time .
FrustrationSetsIn Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 I'm just resigned to going into work tomorrow and sitting sad and ignored at lunch while the guys flock to her. I've just sort of given up about the whole thing.... guys are going to forever want the hot girls, and there's really nothing I can do except ignore them when they bother me about her and accept my eternal single hood. Okay 11 pages of a thread is a bit much to cover up on in a short time. But I have a great tiered question for you, if they were all flocking over to you instead of her, would you be interested in any of them? Or a select few of them? Or is there secretly one guy whose attention you do want but aren't getting due to this woman so every guy that's whining just annoys you? It's a human thing, I can admit to it, I've found myself in that situation a few times in regards to attention. It sucks when you become the foundation for people that are reaching for the stars and not you.
Author verhrzn Posted November 28, 2011 Author Posted November 28, 2011 If the OP needs validation for her looks, she can just go to a bar or night club and revel at the fact of model-looking men tripping over eachother for five minutes of her time . *Nearly faints from laughing so hard* You have GOT to be kidding. I DO go to bars/night clubs once in a while, and not only do I NOT get hit on or flirted with, let alone have guys "tripping over themselves," most guys either 1) pretend I'm not there 2) want me to get them my hot friend's number or 3) after a few drinks, decide it's much more fun insulting me to my face. "Hey, look how red she turns when I ask her how much it sucks to have a flat ass even when she's fat!" Oh man Wolf. The only redeeming quality of my experiences is how much they blow your theories about how easy women have it out of the water. But I have a great tiered question for you, if they were all flocking over to you instead of her, would you be interested in any of them? Or a select few of them? Or is there secretly one guy whose attention you do want but aren't getting due to this woman so every guy that's whining just annoys you? I'd be interested in most of them, honestly. There are one or two I'm more interested in, and one or two that I'm not interested in at all, and the rest fall into a "I'd love to grab coffee and see how we clicked" level.
dasein Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 So some 'differences' between men and women are okay, it's perfectly fine that the OP should have to do all that to attract overweight men who are dressed in the 'male geek uniform' and earn as much as her, but drafting men because they have greater physical strength isn't? Ah, well. There are male misandrists, I suppose it isn't too uncommon to find a female misogynist around here. Your mastery of non sequitur is startling. On what possible bizarro axis do taking steps to attract the opposite sex and risking life and limb in conscripted military service exist together? That's possibly the most stupid and dishonest playing of the "misogynist" card I've seen and I've seen some doozies. To the topic, OP you aren't exercising nearly enough for someone who likely works in a relatively sedentary environment. Also, your body will get used to the type of cardio most people do very quickly, and it will cease to be of benefit. At your age, you should be getting 5-6 solid hours of strenuous, continuous exercise a week if not more. The cardio part of this exercise should include several "sprints" of 40sec to one minute regardless of machine, and cooling off periods of 2-4 minutes between the sprints. I see very few people in my gym doing effective weight loss workouts, and see the same ones coming back month after month with 0 results. Lazily hopping up on a machine and grinding away at a moderate pace for an hour won't do a thing for you. Get your metabolism up by going to bed early, getting up early, stretching the minute you get up and getting in the gym soon after. Take 5 minute stretch breaks during the day and do something active every day at lunch. You will reshape your body if you do these things and eat a healthy diet. Your trainer is incompetent to have you doing so little effective exercise for so long. Fire them and get a new one. Only a tiny few people are unable to tone their body due to antiquated notions of inherent body shape.
FrustrationSetsIn Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 I'd be interested in most of them, honestly. There are one or two I'm more interested in, and one or two that I'm not interested in at all, and the rest fall into a "I'd love to grab coffee and see how we clicked" level. Then take charge, you don't have to be balls out grabbing assertive. But a bit coy and hey "let's go for coffee sometime" kind of thing just may work. And if it doesn't, at least you gave it a shot and it's their loss. Sure there's that whole wanting what people can't have thing that sounds like the guys have going on. But one of the guys you are interested in may be sensible and go for the gal that shows some interest in him. Just a thought.
Author verhrzn Posted November 28, 2011 Author Posted November 28, 2011 (edited) Your trainer is incompetent to have you doing so little effective exercise for so long. Fire them and get a new one. Only a tiny few people are unable to tone their body due to antiquated notions of inherent body shape. I've had 5 in the last year. And on top of the gym cardio I also do martial arts... classes themselves are an hour or two long, and then to have the stamina required for testing, I need to do at least two hours a week on my own. Every week I get stronger, faster, and more flexible... and yet the way I look never changes. My body is how it is. Healthy, kick-a** in stamina and ability, and fat-looking. But one of the guys you are interested in may be sensible and go for the gal that shows some interest in him. Just a thought. Ick, no. That's how I end up with guys that aren't actually interested me, and dump me at the first chance with a girl they actually like.... I'm sick of dating guys who only date me because I showed interest in THEM, and because they automatically assumed they couldn't get the girl they actually wanted. Edited November 28, 2011 by verhrzn
Els Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 Your mastery of non sequitur is startling. On what possible bizarro axis do taking steps to attract the opposite sex and risking life and limb in conscripted military service exist together? That's possibly the most stupid and dishonest playing of the "misogynist" card I've seen and I've seen some doozies. I was not referring to you, if you had not noticed. I actually agreed with your advice that the OP should be looking outside her company. Perhaps my post needed some explanation. The poster I quoted is a firm believer that NO differences should exist between men and women. She advocates that shelters for 'abused women' should be made to change their names to shelters for 'abused people' or else be forced to shut down. She advocates that women should contribute 50% to household incomes and that SAHMs are 'lazy women who sit at home with their hand outstretched to be fed by their man'. She advocates that women should be the sole draft component in the future, as retribution for the fact that men were drafted in the past because of their superior physical strength. Given such a mindset, it is completely illogical and mind-boggling that that same poster would advocate a woman to spend thousands in plastic surgery and makeovers, not to mention the time and effort and health risks, to attract the men in her company who do not look good and earn the same as her. Simply because she is a woman. In the world of 'complete and total equality and no differences', in which even a male's greater physical strength should not be taken into account in any way, there should be no reason why a woman (who is going to pay 50% at any time anyway) should be expected to spend all that time and effort and health risks on her appearance when the men she is after do not. The 'looks are valued more for women, career for men' league bull**** cannot be upheld by the very same people who advocate such 'equality'. That is either great hypocrisy or great stupidity.
AHardDaysNight Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 I can understand the OP's frustration. Many times, male geeks aim for the blond bimbo type, and fail to notice the fellow female geeks around them. This is hotwired into biology, but it does not serve them well, because those hot girls go for hot guys, and the male geeks are left alone. Occasionally, there is a change from this, but it isn't usual. I am surprised that the OP doesn't consider herself a hot chick, though? Because she is. Maybe it's her attitude?
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