How To Tell Whiny Guys To Shut It

[Disenchantedly Yours]

I'm able to answer your question, just can't be bothered to argue with a woman. Especially over an internet forum.

 

Bullcrap. You can't answer the question because you don't know. If you can't be bothered to argue with women on the internet you wouldn't have responded at all. My question is a good one. You want to help women understand? then answer the question.

[the wizard]

Bullcrap. You can't answer the question because you don't know. If you can't be bothered to argue with women on the internet you wouldn't have responded at all. My question is a good one. You want to help women understand? then answer the question.

 

Ah but see love I am simply responding to you. I can answer the question for you but I already know the outcome if I do, so I choose not to.

[Elysian Powder]

Why, you ask? Because it's disrespectful to ask a woman to introduce you to some other woman, as if the OP is chopped liver and not worth considering. If the guy doesn't have an interest in you, so be it, but at least don't rub it in by expecting her to play matchmaker for some other woman. Geez, are you guys really this clueless?

 

Huh. I introduce women to my friends and to random guys all the time. I do not feel disrespected. it'd be silly to expect women to not want another guy. there are billions of women; I don't care.

 

Females with that mindset are too naggy, complicated, have low self-esteem, are entitled and infantile.

 

And guys. they are lousy in bed. Don't bother with them.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Ah but see love I am simply responding to you. I can answer the question for you but I already know the outcome if I do, so I choose not to.

 

If you could answer it, why wouldn't you? Women aren't mind readers. If you want women to know something about men, then you have to share it. Otherwise you can't be so childish to think arguments along the lines of "because" are good enough in any intelligent discussion.

[the wizard]

If you could answer it, why wouldn't you? Women aren't mind readers. If you want women to know something about men, then you have to share it. Otherwise you can't be so childish to think arguments along the lines of "because" are good enough in any intelligent discussion.

 

We're on a different wavelength it seems. I've told you twice now why I will not answer your question. See how you are already insulting my intelligence? Agree to disagree.

[Mme. Chaucer]

I believe that "the wizard's" definition of "masculine" is not exactly universal.

[KathyM]

Disrespectful because why, cause he's not attracted to her? That isn't disrespect, your ego sounds fragile. If a man has no romantic interest in you then he isn't going to be asking you this favor thinking "she likes me but I don't give a **** about her feelings". He's coming to you on a strictly platonic level thinking "Me and her are cool, I'm sure she wouldn't mind helping a friend out."

 

You are taking it personal when you shouldn't be. The guy isn't throwing you away for another woman, because simply, he never picked you up in the first place. He was never attracted, so how can you even have the audacity to feel slighted as if he's picking HER over YOU? He wasn't attracted to you before she was in the picture, so it has nothing to do with him picking her over you. It has alot to do with him being attracted to what he likes, and you just being a jealous bitter woman.

 

Picking her over you as if you're not good enough, lol, listen to how simple you sound.

It's insensitive. If I were dating and had an interest in guys at work, and some guys were falling all over some other woman and expecting me to be part of their hook ups with her, I'd feel a bit taken aback, for sure. You really can't understand why the OP would be a little miffed by that behavior? Hmm. The guy IS picking that woman over the OP, which is his right, but he doesn't have to rub her nose in it, that's all I'm saying.

[FitChick]

Er, did I imagine it (or did you all miss it) that someone mentioned the OP is currently dating someone?

 

The crux of the problem is that the OP has low self-esteem and her ego got bruised. Fix the self-esteem via the Lefkoe Method and you won't get any more bruises.

[KathyM]

Huh. I introduce women to my friends and to random guys all the time. I do not feel disrespected. it'd be silly to expect women to not want another guy. there are billions of women; I don't care.

 

Females with that mindset are too naggy, complicated, have low self-esteem, are entitled and infantile.

 

And guys. they are lousy in bed. Don't bother with them.

It's not a matter of who you want. It's a matter of not rubbing someone's nose in the fact that you are not attracted to them.

 

And if you are referring to me with those generalizations, I have a healthy self esteem and have never been on the receiving end of the disrespect that is the subject of this thread, but I can empathize with the OP when men are treating her with insensitivity. I believe their behavior is insensitive. And my husband has no complaints when it comes to my sexual abilities. You make an awful lot of generalizations.

[KathyM]

Er, did I imagine it (or did you all miss it) that someone mentioned the OP is currently dating someone?

 

The crux of the problem is that the OP has low self-esteem and her ego got bruised. Fix the self-esteem via the Lefkoe Method and you won't get any more bruises.

I thought she said she was in a fwb relationship, but was looking for a real relationship. That was my understanding.

[Elysian Powder]

It's not a matter of who you want. It's a matter of not rubbing someone's nose in the fact that you are not attracted to them.

 

And if you are referring to me with those generalizations, I have a healthy self esteem and have never been on the receiving end of the disrespect that is the subject of this thread, but I can empathize with the OP when men are treating her with insensitivity. I believe their behavior is insensitive.

And my husband has no complaints when it comes to my sexual abilities.

You make an awful lot of generalizations.

 

 

you'd sexually starve him if he complained, and married men are taken to the cleaners all the time. if he ain't happy, better fake it than to end up homeless .

[KathyM]

you'd sexually starve him if he complained, and married men are taken to the cleaners all the time. if he ain't happy, better fake it than to end up homeless .

Where do you get off telling me what I would do? I make every effort to satisfy him in every way in the bedroom, and I'm always researching/thinking about new things to bring to the table. So And I also ask him if there's something he would like me to do, or any way that he would prefer me to do something. I aim to please. He's happy, and he shows it. But I don't want to h/j this thread any further. I'm just saying, I can understand that the OP would be a little miffed, and I think she should turn the tables on these guys, like what I suggested earlier.

[Taramere]

T, it isn't just about the makeup. I thought we were talking about altering her entire demeanour - smirking instead of smiling, changing the way she looks at people and talks and interacts with them.

 

Yes, I do think that if the photo is an indication, then more confident and relaxed - less keen to please - presentation might win her more respect.

 

Although it would be a rather sad day when women NEED to wear makeup and high heels to get people to respect them, though. I would think that that would be the exact opposite of female empowerment.

 

Who says women need to do these things? I'm talking about what can give a woman an advantage by improving her physical appearance. It goes way beyond being considered fanciable. First visible impressions matter....in interviews, meetings, introductions to new clients etc. What competitive woman in the workplace doesn't want to do what it takes to have the edge?

 

The idea of feeling oppressed or disempowered by wearing make up and heels in the workplace is alien to me. I really don't see the business of putting on a bit of make up and a pair of heels as remotely oppressive...unless you're talking about 30 minute make up sessions and 5 inch heels. Which I would see as totally OTT for work.

 

However, if V would feel oppressed and disempowered by following my advice...then sure. She'd be stupid to follow it. I haven't had the impression that she would feel disempowered by it. All I'm getting is that you aren't happy with the advice. Well, it's not you I'm giving that advice to. V can take it or leave it.

[ChessPieceFace]

Women never wanted to be men. Women wanted to be afforded the same respect and equality that men were more often afforded... Regardless of the downfalls of Feminism, and there are downfalls that I am not happy with, it was still something that needed to happen. It also lead some men to say "you want to be equal to me? Fine. Then I will treat you like a man." Which had nothing to do with real true equality and was really a bitter response

 

Translation - you want to be equal yet still privileged. Why would we be bitter about that?

[johan]

Translation: I don't have a woman in my life, and that really bothers me.

[Elysian Powder]

Translation: I don't have a woman in my life, and that really bothers me.

 

white knights get paid in cash? I ask 'cause most guys pandering to women are 30Yo. virgins .

[johan]

I have no idea.

 

What is the compensation for whining?

[threebyfate]

I have no idea.

 

What is the compensation for whining?

I had no idea you were a 30 yo virgin.

[Els]

Correct. Humanity is what it is, it isn't what liberals told you it is. I don't have to like it to accept it. Most of the problems in male/female relationships now stem from an intentional denial and rejection of fundamental, unchangeable value systems wired into the human brain. Women want to be men and a 60%+ divorce rate is the result. Congrats feminism, you're doing exactly what your designers intended. Destroying the family.

 

Oh, and before you spout some nonsense about how none of this affects you because you are such an enlightened feminist - you've already done exactly what I said in this thread. Shown your preoccupation with career. Deny it and you're simply lying. Similar behavior is all over the forums, women saying indirectly or directly what they value, and it's just what I said. See, you're free to try to be whoever you want, and rise above your base nature. But when you fail to do so, you're just a hypocrite living in a liberal fantasy. That's what western women are doing nowadays, and that's why it's such a waste of time bothering with them.

 

Huh, me? ROFL no, I come from an Asian society where men actually still pay for women. I was merely curious how you feel your mantra holds up in an American society in which, if these forums are any benchmark, men refuse to pay or do any more than 50.0000% in a relationship. There is really no point in continuing on with valuing 'looks for women, money for men' if the man is not even going to be spending any of that money on her, is there? Simply does not make logical sense.

 

Also, if you feel 'feminists' are the ones protesting this the most vehemently, I would happily start a thread with my good-looking waiter/waitress analogy and you can observe who protests the greatest about the 'double standard' therein. You can bet your behind that it'll be your fellow 'men's right champions' who do so.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

We're on a different wavelength it seems. I've told you twice now why I will not answer your question. See how you are already insulting my intelligence? Agree to disagree.

 

YOu've said a lot of nothing. It's like a Seinfield episode. I have no clue if we disagree or agree since you can't answer a simple question. But that's on you. If you had a good answer to my question, you'd be eager to answer it. But you simply don't. But you will go on complaining. Again..that's on you. Not women.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Translation - you want to be equal yet still privileged. Why would we be bitter about that?

 

Funny but I didn't pinpoint my expectations about romantic relationships, I don't see how you could even drawl that conclusion not knowing what my specific desires are within a relationship and how I view equality in my relationships in combination with wanting to be treated like a woman.

 

But hey, next time a man wants a bj or enjoys a meal I cooked, I'll be sure to whine about how many privilages he enjoys that are sexist.

[Negative Nancy]

Women want to be men and a 60%+ divorce rate is the result. Congrats feminism, you're doing exactly what your designers intended. Destroying the family.

 

Oh, and before you spout some nonsense about how none of this affects you because you are such an enlightened feminist - you've already done exactly what I said in this thread. Shown your preoccupation with career

 

women to an extent almost have no other choice than focusing on their career because men often decide to leave them when they are "too old". i have seen many so called old school marriages where the woman was a SAHM and then found herself with literally nothing a couple years down the road, no education, no money, no job, because the new divorce laws favor men now. so a woman BETTER is preoccupied with her career since men are not holding up their end of the bargain anymore either, thus are just as responsible for the 60 % divorce rate.

 

so yeah, i prepare myself for the likely scenario of getting dumped and fending for myself, so of course i need a career in order to survive on my own. how far detached from the real world are you, exactly?

[Woggle]

Men who dump women when they get older are scum but it is a fact that the majority of divorces are initiated by women. Some of these might be because the man is a scumbag but there are also many walkway wife scenarios as well.

 

I have seen a good number of loving husbands who would have died for their wives all of a sudden get hit the divorce bomb. She wakes up and decides she has not accomplished she wanted to in her life so of course it is all his fault and she decides to dump him. You see it many times when the kids leave for college. He is to blame for all her unhappiness and he gets tossed aside. This happens at least as much if not more than men dumping their wives for a younger woman.

[PlumPrincess]

Great. Where are they? So far, V isn't meeting them.

 

She can still be cute, nice and fun...but here's what I think. I'm looking at V's picture which she has agreed is the essence of who she is. Her body language is tense. She's pulling herself together in a "can't take up too much space" kind of way and her smile has an element of puppyish "I hope you'll like me." Which is charming...but that's a side of her for men to discover a bit later. Too much of that too soon, and they might think she's a bit of a pushover (as in "overly nice guy/girl pushover whose good nature is easily taken advantage of). If men are relaxed and comfortable around her because she's coming over as tense and keen to please and it makes them feel powerful, then that's going to serve their needs and interests but not hers.

 

I think there's something in people of both genders that unconsciously looks for a partner who is able to handle themselves and say "no" when required. Otherwise as their partner you would find yourself sharing some of that crap that can come from being a little bit too nice and accommodating to others who don't necessarily deserve it.

 

Being yourself is all very well, but being aware of the messages you give out to others with your general demeanour is also important. If being cute, nice and fun involves putting your own needs and self esteem on the backburner while listening to men drone on about other women, then it's time to be a bit less cute, nice and fun.

 

I mean listen to what happens with these so-called friends when she refuses to act as some kind of procuress for them...

 

 

 

Cute, nice, fun V can come out for men who have proven themselves to be genuine people who have a decent level of respect for her. Guys who will give her back something worthwhile, rather than just using her as a means to getting to another woman.

 

You're saying that I'm telling her to be something she's not. I disagree with that. I'm reading on this board how she really feels about these guys bending her ear about another woman. She isn't feeling cute, nice, happy and quirky about that situation. She's feeling pissed off about it. She's fed up of being that unthreatening presence men can talk about other women to...and if she's fed up with being that girl, then it's not genuine to carry on presenting herself in that way.

 

It would be far more genuine to look a bit bored and distracted when they talk about the colleague, and switch to a more interested and friendly stance when they pay attention to V herself.

 

V....

 

 

 

..is par for the course when you draw the line at people trying to use you. Let it wash over you, because it's their problem not yours. I mentioned already about your body language in the photo. I'd suggest listening to a hypnotherapy tape (destressing or whatever) and focusing on the introductory part where it talks you through relaxing your body.

 

That will help you develop better awareness of any physical tension, and help you to develop the knack of physically relaxing at will. Saying no and being a tad bitchy will come across as angry and defensive if you're tensed up while you're doing it. Which is never going to be helpful. If you're physically relaxed, then you can carry it off in a more playful-and-in-control-of-yourself way.

 

 

 

Then she stops using them. It's not some irreversible duty for any woman to wear make up.. It just happens to be something a lot of women find fun and confidence boosting. Men aren't generally so stupid or child-like that they're going to go into shock when a somewhat seductive stranger turns out to be a normal, everyday person.

 

I don't get this notion that wearing high heels, make up and engaging in a bit of flirtiness will conceal or destroy a woman's personality. Unless a person has a very weak personality (which I'm sure V doesn't) it's not going to be concealed or destroyed by these things. I think it would be an idea for her to practice out being a sexy and flirtatious girl in order to bring out and be more comfortable with her sexual, feminine side. If she doesn't want to, of course she doesn't have to....but I think it's something she could have a bit of fun with.

 

If you personally disapprove of the smoky-eyed seductress thing a bit, then that's fine. However, this is about V and changes that she wants to make to her interactions with men. If she wants men to see her in a more sexual light, she needs to get away from the notion that a more flirtatious demeanour is going to diminish her in some way...and start embracing her seductive side a bit more. Having fun with it. Resignedly plodding on as she is and hoping that one day her prince will come isn't working. Getting angry isn't going to work. So I have tried to open up another possibility for her. Regardless of my "stop that" directive advice, she's ultimately a free agent and can do whatever she thinks is the best fit for her.

That's a pretty good analysis! And I especially liked the bold part! You just made me aware of something that is quite true! Thanks!

[ThsAmericanLife]

That will help you develop better awareness of any physical tension, and help you to develop the knack of physically relaxing at will. Saying no and being a tad bitchy will come across as angry and defensive if you're tensed up while you're doing it. Which is never going to be helpful. If you're physically relaxed, then you can carry it off in a more playful-and-in-control-of-yourself way.

 

Verhzn, I agree with the above, and her assessment of your body language...

 

Finding people you can emulate can be tricky, but here's some suggestions to point you in the right direction.

 

One of my favorite managers at my former company had a way of squashing the most obnoxious requests and statements in meetings with a bit of wit (read, a bit of a-hole) mixed with humor. He's a small man. Kind of thin and not tall. You can imagine that if he barked at employees like some other men, he'd be labeled as having a small man or Napoleon complex. But he avoided that by getting his point across with a sense of humor... and leaving the impression (no matter how put on) that he cared about people.

 

He was my model for dealing with unreasonable requests or blatant attempts by some people to raise their leg on me.

 

I'm called on to do this CONSTANTLY with my students (mostly because they haven't learned rules of engagement). I have to say 'no' to most of their requests... some of them pretty outrageous.

 

Developing an air of 'cheerful firmness' is a very useful skill.

 

I'd also suggest taking a dance class or yoga, if you aren't already. Both of those improve your posture and gives you body awareness and confidence.

 

Alot of men who are struggling with dating could take that same advice.