Els Posted November 25, 2011 Posted November 25, 2011 Fair enough. Regardless your appraisal is wrong as well, as T most certainly was suggesting change, not simply enhancement.
threebyfate Posted November 25, 2011 Posted November 25, 2011 Fair enough. Regardless your appraisal is wrong as well, as T most certainly was suggesting change, not simply enhancement.The definition of insanity is to try the same things over and over again, hoping for a different result. It ain't working for verhrzn. So why would it hurt to try something different? Taramere's not suggesting a fundamental change like dropping values and morals.
Els Posted November 25, 2011 Posted November 25, 2011 I have detailed likely ill-effects of following that advice in my previous posts. I do agree that it would not hurt to try, just that I would not be terribly optimistic about the longevity of a relationship starting on such ground.
threebyfate Posted November 25, 2011 Posted November 25, 2011 I have detailed likely ill-effects of following that advice in my previous posts. I do agree that it would not hurt to try, just that I would not be terribly optimistic about the longevity of a relationship starting on such ground.I would agree with this if these were fundamental changes. Quite frankly, they're almost no-brainers. Enhance what you're genetically given to the max, if possible.Don't be boring.Value yourself by not being a doormat. Reading verhrzyn's posts, she's not a stupid girl and should know these will help her lifelong and not only in romance.
Els Posted November 25, 2011 Posted November 25, 2011 No, the advice was literally 'stop being a cute, nice and fun girl, the sort that men feel comfortable around'. Believe it or not, there are actually men who appreciate such girls. Both of us agreed that she should not be a doormat.
threebyfate Posted November 25, 2011 Posted November 25, 2011 No, the advice was literally 'stop being a cute, nice and fun girl, the sort that men feel comfortable around'. Believe it or not, there are actually men who appreciate such girls. Both of us agreed that she should not be a doormat.Okay, then verhrzyn, try Elswyth's most important advice and see how it goes. Hope it works for you!
Taramere Posted November 25, 2011 Posted November 25, 2011 (edited) No, the advice was literally 'stop being a cute, nice and fun girl, the sort that men feel comfortable around'. Believe it or not, there are actually men who appreciate such girls. Great. Where are they? So far, V isn't meeting them. She can still be cute, nice and fun...but here's what I think. I'm looking at V's picture which she has agreed is the essence of who she is. Her body language is tense. She's pulling herself together in a "can't take up too much space" kind of way and her smile has an element of puppyish "I hope you'll like me." Which is charming...but that's a side of her for men to discover a bit later. Too much of that too soon, and they might think she's a bit of a pushover (as in "overly nice guy/girl pushover whose good nature is easily taken advantage of). If men are relaxed and comfortable around her because she's coming over as tense and keen to please and it makes them feel powerful, then that's going to serve their needs and interests but not hers. I think there's something in people of both genders that unconsciously looks for a partner who is able to handle themselves and say "no" when required. Otherwise as their partner you would find yourself sharing some of that crap that can come from being a little bit too nice and accommodating to others who don't necessarily deserve it. Being yourself is all very well, but being aware of the messages you give out to others with your general demeanour is also important. If being cute, nice and fun involves putting your own needs and self esteem on the backburner while listening to men drone on about other women, then it's time to be a bit less cute, nice and fun. I mean listen to what happens with these so-called friends when she refuses to act as some kind of procuress for them... Agreed that I should stop being a doormat... But how exactly do I do that without being labeled bitchy or jealous? On Friday, I told two of the guys that'd been bugging me, coolly, to go introduce themselves... one of them chewed me out for not being a proper friend and being "bitchy", and the other just sort of chuckled and was all "Ooooo, JEALOUS, huh?" Cute, nice, fun V can come out for men who have proven themselves to be genuine people who have a decent level of respect for her. Guys who will give her back something worthwhile, rather than just using her as a means to getting to another woman. You're saying that I'm telling her to be something she's not. I disagree with that. I'm reading on this board how she really feels about these guys bending her ear about another woman. She isn't feeling cute, nice, happy and quirky about that situation. She's feeling pissed off about it. She's fed up of being that unthreatening presence men can talk about other women to...and if she's fed up with being that girl, then it's not genuine to carry on presenting herself in that way. It would be far more genuine to look a bit bored and distracted when they talk about the colleague, and switch to a more interested and friendly stance when they pay attention to V herself. V.... Agreed that I should stop being a doormat... But how exactly do I do that without being labeled bitchy or jealous? On Friday, I told two of the guys that'd been bugging me, coolly, to go introduce themselves... one of them chewed me out for not being a proper friend and being "bitchy", and the other just sort of chuckled and was all "Ooooo, JEALOUS, huh?" ..is par for the course when you draw the line at people trying to use you. Let it wash over you, because it's their problem not yours. I mentioned already about your body language in the photo. I'd suggest listening to a hypnotherapy tape (destressing or whatever) and focusing on the introductory part where it talks you through relaxing your body. That will help you develop better awareness of any physical tension, and help you to develop the knack of physically relaxing at will. Saying no and being a tad bitchy will come across as angry and defensive if you're tensed up while you're doing it. Which is never going to be helpful. If you're physically relaxed, then you can carry it off in a more playful-and-in-control-of-yourself way. As I said, I see the merits of T's advice in that I am sure it may help her attract men. But they would not be attracted to the real her... and that's where people get disillusioned after the honeymoon period goggles wear off. How long is she going to continue to put up that smirking sultry goddess illusion, once she gets the man? What happens when she doesn't want to use eyelash curlers and eyeliners and mascara anymore? Then she stops using them. It's not some irreversible duty for any woman to wear make up.. It just happens to be something a lot of women find fun and confidence boosting. Men aren't generally so stupid or child-like that they're going to go into shock when a somewhat seductive stranger turns out to be a normal, everyday person. I don't get this notion that wearing high heels, make up and engaging in a bit of flirtiness will conceal or destroy a woman's personality. Unless a person has a very weak personality (which I'm sure V doesn't) it's not going to be concealed or destroyed by these things. I think it would be an idea for her to practice out being a sexy and flirtatious girl in order to bring out and be more comfortable with her sexual, feminine side. If she doesn't want to, of course she doesn't have to....but I think it's something she could have a bit of fun with. If you personally disapprove of the smoky-eyed seductress thing a bit, then that's fine. However, this is about V and changes that she wants to make to her interactions with men. If she wants men to see her in a more sexual light, she needs to get away from the notion that a more flirtatious demeanour is going to diminish her in some way...and start embracing her seductive side a bit more. Having fun with it. Resignedly plodding on as she is and hoping that one day her prince will come isn't working. Getting angry isn't going to work. So I have tried to open up another possibility for her. Regardless of my "stop that" directive advice, she's ultimately a free agent and can do whatever she thinks is the best fit for her. Edited November 25, 2011 by Taramere t key not working very well
Els Posted November 25, 2011 Posted November 25, 2011 (edited) T, I actually agree with your current advice, especially the first paragraph. It was the part about 'stop being cute, nice, and fun' in your previous post that got me. I think she should try changing her dating pool before changing herself, though, as I feel that the guys in her company are probably the problem, and not her. That is why I didn't agree with her dolling herself up to attract them - they have already proven that they are not attracted to her, the way she is. If she does get those same men interested in her via makeup and wardrobe tactics, it IS sort of 'an irreversible duty' for her to continue, because they were not interested in the old her in the past, why should they be attracted to the old her in the future? I also had not intended to make such a big deal out of protesting your advice, honest to god. I think it has some merit, as I said before. I was merely contesting TBF's misrepresentation of what it actually was - ie she claimed that it was solely aimed at enhancing and not changing. I wished to clarify that a girl going from cute, nice, fun to smoky seductress IS changing. That in itself might not necessarily be bad - plenty of people change themselves to obtain a mate, and while that isn't my cup of tea, I don't feel it hurts to try it if someone genuinely is at the end of his/her road. Edited November 25, 2011 by Elswyth
Taramere Posted November 25, 2011 Posted November 25, 2011 T, I actually agree with your current advice, especially the first paragraph. It was the part about 'stop being cute, nice, and fun' in your previous post that got me. Well, there was an element of....how do I say it? Wordplay? Poetic licence? About the advice. I don't seriously think she should alter herself in any significant way. When I was writing advice to her, I kept going back and looking at that picture. Trying to get a sense of her through a combo of the pic and what she's saying. There's a lot of pressure on women to be people-pleasers. I hear men on this site complaining about getting that pressure, but I really do believe there's more of it on women. If I talk to a male friend about another man I'm interested in, he'll generally make no bones about being disinterested in hearing about it...and I'll change the subject. When a woman does the same thing, she's being a bitch. I think most women are automatically far more threatening than we realise to many men, and there's also a lot of social disapproval about women who are obviously sexual (hence the hostility you often see about women on this board). Perhaps we're not even always aware of the effort we put into being less threatening. Less sexual. I see that about V's photo. Effort put into being small and unthreatening. In some ways this might be less about putting on an act around these guys as it is about simply making less effort to be accommodating and unthreatening. That is why I didn't agree with her dolling herself up to attract them - they have already proven that they are not attracted to her, the way she is. This is less about attracting them, more about putting up a slight barrier. Making them a little bit less comfortable around her. Less about "please fancy me" and more about....well, I suppose it's about her projecting herself as more of an "alphafemale". I know these are dreadful terms, but I'm sure we've all seen the alpha and beta dynamic in the workplace. Men tend to gravitate to powerful women a lot more than they necessarily like to admit on boards like this. I don't think she wants these guys to be drooling after her so much as she wants them to respect her enough to not be pestering her with the details of their schoolboy crushes on one of her colleagues.
Disenchantedly Yours Posted November 25, 2011 Posted November 25, 2011 Especially as the majority of men here (and thus I extrapolate that to be the majority of men in the USA) are paranoid about paying for anything for their gfs, I really don't think your standard applies here anymore. The 'women like men for money/career, men like women for their appearance' only really applies in societies in which the man still pays for a woman, because there is virtually no point in a rich partner otherwise. I still find looking at men or women as solely a sum of their appearance or $$ to be a horribly shallow mindset, but at least the latter makes some sort of sense. This is a really key point. So many regular guys that don't exactly pull a lot of money act like the regular girls dating them are after them for their money. It's so laughable. If she was going to go after someone for money, the chances of her going after your average joe are 0%. I always am left shaking my head at the number of regular guys here that act like women want them for their money when they don't even have any money.
Els Posted November 25, 2011 Posted November 25, 2011 This is less about attracting them, more about putting up a slight barrier. Making them a little bit less comfortable around her. Less about "please fancy me" and more about....well, I suppose it's about her projecting herself as more of an "alphafemale". I know these are dreadful terms, but I'm sure we've all seen the alpha and beta dynamic in the workplace. Men tend to gravitate to powerful women a lot more than they necessarily like to admit on boards like this. I don't think she wants these guys to be drooling after her so much as she wants them to respect her enough to not be pestering her with the details of their schoolboy crushes on one of her colleagues. That is an awful lot of work to be putting in, for -not- attracting people, Tara. Straight up, I don't think one needs to be a smoky seductress to enforce one's boundaries. I think V needs to enforce her boundaries better, and she may possibly slightly benefit from going the smoky seductress route (though really, I think it's best we agree to disagree on that ), but I don't think the two are related. I don't think women need to be flirty and sexy, or even project themselves as an alpha female, to be respected.
Taramere Posted November 25, 2011 Posted November 25, 2011 (edited) That is an awful lot of work to be putting in, for -not- attracting people, Tara. Straight up, I don't think one needs to be a smoky seductress to enforce one's boundaries. I think it helps. Just to quickly add...re the work put in. I think it probably takes me 7 minutes max to put on some make up, liner and mascara for a regular day (as opposed to a night out). It's not exactly hard labour down the coal mines. Edited November 25, 2011 by Taramere
Els Posted November 25, 2011 Posted November 25, 2011 T, it isn't just about the makeup. I thought we were talking about altering her entire demeanour - smirking instead of smiling, changing the way she looks at people and talks and interacts with them. Although it would be a rather sad day when women NEED to wear makeup and high heels to get people to respect them, though. I would think that that would be the exact opposite of female empowerment.
ChessPieceFace Posted November 25, 2011 Posted November 25, 2011 (edited) so you feel that a good-looking waitress is not practicing double standards when she turns down the good-looking waiter on the basis of him not having a 'good enough career'? Correct. Humanity is what it is, it isn't what liberals told you it is. I don't have to like it to accept it. Most of the problems in male/female relationships now stem from an intentional denial and rejection of fundamental, unchangeable value systems wired into the human brain. Women want to be men and a 60%+ divorce rate is the result. Congrats feminism, you're doing exactly what your designers intended. Destroying the family. Oh, and before you spout some nonsense about how none of this affects you because you are such an enlightened feminist - you've already done exactly what I said in this thread. Shown your preoccupation with career. Deny it and you're simply lying. Similar behavior is all over the forums, women saying indirectly or directly what they value, and it's just what I said. See, you're free to try to be whoever you want, and rise above your base nature. But when you fail to do so, you're just a hypocrite living in a liberal fantasy. That's what western women are doing nowadays, and that's why it's such a waste of time bothering with them. Edited November 25, 2011 by ChessPieceFace
Feelsgoodman Posted November 25, 2011 Posted November 25, 2011 By your logic, I see very hot women with unattractive guys all the time... so does that mean ugly men don't have problems getting into relationships? In my observations, I see ugly girls with fantastic personalities getting into relationships with average/decent looking guys. It's incredibly rare to see an ugly woman with a hot/beautiful man, though. And yet, I see it ALL the time in reverse. How does that work, exactly? It's called the escort service.
Disenchantedly Yours Posted November 25, 2011 Posted November 25, 2011 Most of the problems in male/female relationships now stem from an intentional denial and rejection of fundamental, unchangeable value systems wired into the human brain. Such as? Women want to be men and a 60%+ divorce rate is the result. Congrats feminism, you're doing exactly what your designers intended. Destroying the family. Women never wanted to be men. Women wanted to be afforded the same respect and equality that men were more often afforded. The result let some women to go overboard in their cursade and allowed for others to have more options and choices in life that they didn't previously have. Regardless of the downfalls of Feminism, and there are downfalls that I am not happy with, it was still something that needed to happen. It also lead some men to say "you want to be equal to me? Fine. Then I will treat you like a man." Which had nothing to do with real true equality and was really a bitter response because they couldn't seperate the idea of treating women like equals while letting women maintain their femininity within relationships. Further, It is overly simplistic to blame Feminism for everything when the world is ever changing in many facets of life. Look at technology today and how much that's changed our way of life in such a short time span. That's really done more to harm relationship if you ask me.
the wizard Posted November 25, 2011 Posted November 25, 2011 Truly and honestly, the OP sounds bitter that she isn't the center of attention. I can't really take her seriously, smh.
Author verhrzn Posted November 25, 2011 Author Posted November 25, 2011 Truly and honestly, the OP sounds bitter that she isn't the center of attention. I can't really take her seriously, smh. No, I'm bitter because no guys find me attractive. If even ONE of the guys at our company considered me attractive over her, I'd be ecstatic. (Or if they stopped complaining to me how no girls want to date them. That'd be great as well.)
the wizard Posted November 25, 2011 Posted November 25, 2011 Such as? . Women never wanted to be men. Women wanted to be afforded the same respect and equality that men were more often afforded. The result let some women to go overboard in their cursade and allowed for others to have more options and choices in life that they didn't previously have. Regardless of the downfalls of Feminism, and there are downfalls that I am not happy with, it was still something that needed to happen. It also lead some men to say "you want to be equal to me? Fine. Then I will treat you like a man." Which had nothing to do with real true equality and was really a bitter response because they couldn't seperate the idea of treating women like equals while letting women maintain their femininity within relationships. Further, It is overly simplistic to blame Feminism for everything when the world is ever changing in many facets of life. Look at technology today and how much that's changed our way of life in such a short time span. That's really done more to harm relationship if you ask me. So with that being said, why can't men keep their masculinity? You see where gender equality fails? Women want to be men but want to keep their feminine benefits, meanwhile stripping men of what it meant to be a man, their masculinity. You can't have your cake and eat it to.
Disenchantedly Yours Posted November 25, 2011 Posted November 25, 2011 So with that being said, why can't men keep their masculinity? You see where gender equality fails? Women want to be men but want to keep their feminine benefits, meanwhile stripping men of what it meant to be a man, their masculinity. You can't have your cake and eat it to. I would like men to keep their masculinity. But what does masculinity mean to you? I see a lot of men define masculinity through behavior that is selfish and sometimes mean toward women. How do you define masculinity? Again, women want to be equal, just like men are equal. We want respect, just like men want respect. But we still want to be women. And we would hope men still want to be men. This isn't a case of "having your cake and eating it too". It's a case of realizing that men and women are equal but sometimes different. It's a case of each man and each woman defining what is equality to them as well.
the wizard Posted November 25, 2011 Posted November 25, 2011 . I would like men to keep their masculinity. But what does masculinity mean to you? I see a lot of men define masculinity through behavior that is selfish and sometimes mean toward women. How do you define masculinity? Again, women want to be equal, just like men are equal. We want respect, just like men want respect. But we still want to be women. And we would hope men still want to be men. This isn't a case of "having your cake and eating it too". It's a case of realizing that men and women are equal but sometimes different. It's a case of each man and each woman defining what is equality to them as well. Again, masculine acts are viewed as selfish and mean towards women. I rest my case.
Disenchantedly Yours Posted November 25, 2011 Posted November 25, 2011 Again, masculine acts are viewed as selfish and mean towards women. I rest my case. That's not what I said at all. There are so many things about masculinity that are wonderful. What I said is that I have SEEN alot of men define masculinity through actions that are really selfish and mean toward women. Which is why I asked YOU how you defined masculinity. If this topic is that important to you, you should be able to answer my question.
the wizard Posted November 25, 2011 Posted November 25, 2011 That's not what I said at all. There are so many things about masculinity that are wonderful. What I said is that I have SEEN alot of men define masculinity through actions that are really selfish and mean toward women. Which is why I asked YOU how you defined masculinity. If this topic is that important to you, you should be able to answer my question. I'm able to answer your question, just can't be bothered to argue with a woman. Especially over an internet forum.
KathyM Posted November 25, 2011 Posted November 25, 2011 In answer to the OP's original question, I'd want to take these guys down a peg if they had the nerve to ask me to hook them up with some other woman. I think I'd tell them, "I'll make a deal with you. I'll introduce you to her if you play a little matchmaker for me with that hottie that you sit next to." And then go on and on about what a great looking guy that hottie is, so muscular. I bet that guy knows how to treat a woman. And lay it on thick. That's sure to make this pea brain guy to feel a little inadequate.
Ariadne Posted November 25, 2011 Posted November 25, 2011 Agreed that I should stop being a doormat... But how exactly do I do that without being labeled bitchy or jealous? On Friday, I told two of the guys that'd been bugging me, coolly, to go introduce themselves... one of them chewed me out for not being a proper friend and being "bitchy", and the other just sort of chuckled and was all "Ooooo, JEALOUS, huh?" Well, My advice is that you should introduce them and be friends with all and let them sort it out. I don't think that means that you are being a "doormat", but just being cool. I think that you'd have more self-respect if you wouldn't let yourself be affected by this and understand that if they like the other girl they like the other girl. It's their choice. And I think that being who you are and not putting an act also goes a long way. I agree with Elswyth in her assertions. Wishing you good luck in finding a partner.
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