Ladies, when you make a mistke, why is it hard for you to admit it. EVen to yourselve

[Woggle]

We live in a society where women are rarely held accountable when things go wrong plus all types of indefensible behavior is excused under the guise of female empowerment.

 

Women who are not raised this way tend to be able to accept responsibility for their actions.

[singlelife]

i know there has to be some women that take responsibilty.

[Ilovewater]

It's not a gender-related issue but a maturity-related issue. Older doesn't always mean maturity. There are people in their 40s or 50s who are still as immature at teenagers, so don't expect everyone your age to be mature enough to own up to their mistakes. Admitting that you've done something wrong is difficult because no one wants to be wrong. It takes some courage to admit fault, and it takes maturity to realize that making mistakes is OK. When I was a teenager, you'd have to beat me to death before I admitted that I did something wrong. It was mostly due to fear of people judging me for my mistakes. However, after some growing up, I'm not afraid to admit I'm wrong because I know everyone makes mistakes, and everyone has gone through the same feelings.

[Pyro]

i know there has to be some women that take responsibilty.

 

of course there are, otherwise no guys would ever bother being in a committed relationship or getting married.

 

a couple bad experiences with a handful of women and all of a sudden the millions and millions of women that make up the female gender are all evil.

 

Not speaking about you OP.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

I take it you disagree with my opinion.

 

I'll get to you in a minute..me and my unicorns are trying to decide what they are going to wear tomorrow..you know..cause women aren't grounded in "reality" like men are and everything.

 

Frankly, I wasn't going to respond to you because there isn't really a point but I guess I will bite.

 

It's one of the worst things I ever read on here. Some posts are just from wounded guys that are hurt from women and are lashing out. Other posts are guys that are just angry and bitter. Your post is ridiculously condescending and belittling toward women beyond belief and you truly believe it. You've gone so far to say that women in general are incapable of rationality and reasoning, (except for a rare sector of women you described as, "When you meet women without this flaw in reasoning, they are just as good as men at most any kind of reasoning, science, math, but those types are a small minority), while men in general hold this card in spades.

 

One's ability to reason regarding science and math does not always equate to an ability to reason when it comes to human interaction, relationships, personal failures and being upfront and honest in it. I've dated very smart men that were quite good at science and math but knew nothing about people or themselves. I'm utterly flabbergasted to the extent you've gone in this post to basicaly say women live in the clouds and men are more reasonable creatures. ESPECIALLY, with this board as a back drop for just how "reasonable" men "are". It's a joke. This board isn't exactly brimming with "rational" men and "illogical" women.

 

Men and women are different and it's true that we sometimes think different of place importance on different things. But that by no way means that men are "more logical" and women aren't. If you want respect as a man for who you are as a man, you need to really learn about women and give them respect, and not only respect but actually enjoy the way their minds work that are different from yours that you may not always understand, and not only give them regard when you think they display qualities that you more closely link to a man. Just because you don't always understand women doesn't mean they aren't infact rational. The way a man approaches or thinks about a problem isn't "better" then the way a woman might. Both men and women use reasoning and logic. We don't live in a world where men are running around completely in control, logical and rational while women are walking around cross-eyed sucking on lollipops. Men make mistakes, just as much as women. And they make them because of a mixture of factors, just like women.

 

By the way, women in general tend to be more verbal and use more words then men do. Are we going to say that women are better communicators because of that? I certainly don't think women are always better communicators. Do you?

 

Do you realize what is so ironic in this whole thread? That most of the men that have responded to it are quick to say women can't admit when they are wrong but not one man here ever admitted that he is sometimes wrong and is honest about it when he is. Most of the guys that responded to this thread where quick to point their fingers at women and make judgements with no real raw honesty about themselves on their part.

 

You can see this right here on these forums constantly, men try to argue points directly using facts and reasons behind those facts, while many women try to talk "around" the topic to get to a more favorable position instead of talking to a specific point and sticking to it.

 

If we are going to be turly logical and rational, then we would know that this is something both genders do, as is seen all over this board when men "rationlize" their behavior or when women "rationlize" theirs. Usually men and women use fact in combination with what would best benefit them to reason a point.

 

And as one poster smartly pointed out, women usually blame themselves for failures quite easily. Sometimes taking on things they had no control of.

[OnyxSnowfall]

I haven't noticed it being gender related...

 

I've met both males and females who've struggled with taking accountability and both males and females who've struggled with always trying to take responsibility (and thus often enabling others).

 

I've personally owned a lot of my own mistakes... as I'm usually uninterested in repeating them =P

 

But it CAN be hard to discern the truth --- what has resulted from what, heh.

[phineas]

This is exactly how I began to notice the trend, was dating a woman and the vile description of her ex husband would curl your toes, drug addict, alcoholic, thief, cheater, liar, every bad thing in the book.

 

And of course, the demise of their marriage had nothing whatsoever to do with her, any mistakes she made, her own behavior

 

Met the guy and he didn't seem so bad.

 

And of course, they were still great old pals! ?????

 

And of course, she turned out to be alcoholic, substance abusive, unethical, lied and cheated.

 

In fact, this was one of my -only- relationships when I didn't actually share in the blame, I was near flawless, having learned from past mistakes of mine.

 

And I imagine she described me as a drug addict, alcoholic, lying, cheating scumbag to the next guy.

 

After this one, which was about ten years ago, I looked back at all my prior relationships with women over the years, and noticed that they were always the ones to bring up ex talk, not me, and that they never described a past relationship that they were largely responsible for messing up, it was always the guy. Have had many shorter and one long relationship since that one, and all hold true to form. IME women simply will not accept accountability for any fault at all in their past relationships.

 

They talk a GREAT show though, especially in forums like this. Actually be dating them though as opposed to listening them rationalize here is a different matter. But don't believe me wholesale, guys, think back on your relationships, I really would like to hear examples FROM A MAN of a woman he was dating admitting fault in prior relationships. It would do my attitude about women some good.

 

I have yet to hear a woman I dated admit to any fault in a relationship ending.

They also all claim every ex wants them even though said ex's dumped them for someone else.

 

Me, I know where I F'd up with women & I'm mindful of past mistakes & do try to not repeat them.

However, I've learned to recognize that most of those "mistakes" were really just incompatibilities. I've never cheated for instance & I don't put myself in situations where a woman i'm with would be worried i'd cheat.

But, I do like my space & I do have my hobbies & some women simply need more attention than others & that is where things start going bad.

[Emilia]

Hey, nobodies perfect. Men mess up, leadies mess, whateva. But it does seem like the ladies have a harder time admitting that they messed up. Whatever it may be. Is this an esteem thing or do ladies just feel they don't need to do better and it's all on the man to change? Not saying in the same relationship. but just growing as a person and moving on to men in the future. Yet they keep making the same mistakes. This goes from person to person so please share.

 

I think it would greatly help you with your dating life if you didn't focus on the negatives in other people all the time. It goes both ways, in case you haven't heard.

[phineas]

Actually I would ignore more posts from the usual suspects here, but they are so over the top in terms of outrageous characterizations, say calling me a UFOlogist, holocaust denier, etc., so facile with the straw men as opposed to merely sticking to the topic or discussing things in a straightforward manner, so desperately febrile in their insults, that it's like "The Kramer" I detest it but can't look away.

 

Coincidentally, the person you are addressing here said this about me in one of her threads.

 

 

Sorry if you took that as an insult... seems *someone* is a little sensitive. Woooo!!!

 

If you get a kick out of 'pilfering' and that seems like good sport to you, then have at it. Who cares?

 

You shouldn't be surprised, hurt, or angry that the person you are trying to 'hit and quit' is applying the same standards to you... that's all I'm saying...

 

After I verbally pimp-slapped her for calling me "low quality" AGAIN on this forum using her favorite "low quality people attract like people" (yet when you point out she claims to only attract low quality men she ignores it & changes the subject.)

 

Any-hoo,

 

I have zero idea where she got the whole i'm a pilferer thing or my imaginary difficulties trying to pick up attached women because I never said it & when I challenged her on where it came from she decided we were off-topic & refused to explain why she posted that about me. LOL!

 

I think that's a prime example.

a link to the page in the thread to further prove you are on to something here.

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?t=307289&page=2

 

If anyone here can show where I claimed I made it a habit of pilfering women & where I talked about my experiences practicing such things then i'll admit I was wrong.

 

But I don't see anywhere in that thread where I posted such things.

[dasein]

If women don't stick to the point and facts because they want a different reality, men will stick to the mere facts and narrow points to avoid the real reality. We all know what we're doing, we all know we pull to our side, and we all convince ourselves that we have a good cause worth fighting for.

 

Have been thinking on this and was wanting some clarification. I have maintained that women tend to have an overbroad sense of contextual relevancy as part of a defense mechanism stemming from fear of being wrong. You state here that men tend to have a too narrow sense of contextual relevancy. Would be interested in hearing this fleshed out some, and also what you think the motive is, also the desire to be right? or something else?

[dasein]

a couple bad experiences with a handful of women and all of a sudden the millions and millions of women that make up the female gender are all evil.

 

The above is a perfect example of what I'm talking about, and see it daily here. Someone makes a generalization, then instead of disagreeing with that generalization in a straightforward way, a female poster distorts what was actually said to the point of ridiculousness. Stating that "IME most women have trouble accepting blame" does not equal stating "the millions and millions of women that make up the female gender are all evil."

 

Stating that "women decrease in physical attractiveness as they age," does not equal "older women are garbage," another one seen here frequently. Is part of the issue that when women hear a generalization about women, they internalize it so heavily that it is automatically assessed at a higher threat level than it really is?

 

For example, if someone makes the generalization "men do all their thinking with the little head," when I hear such, the thought process is, "I don't do all my thinking with the little head, so the generalization doesn't apply to me, regardless of whether it applies to other men or most other men or not." So the analysis of whether the generalization applies to me or not is separate from whether it's true or not. Do women hear something different from that when they hear a generalization?

[dasein]

It's one of the worst things I ever read on here. Some posts are just from wounded guys that are hurt from women and are lashing out. Other posts are guys that are just angry and bitter. Your post is ridiculously condescending and belittling toward women beyond belief and you truly believe it.

 

Less lecture and more straightforward disagreement please. You are making my point for me.

 

You've gone so far to say that women in general are incapable of rationality and reasoning, (except for a rare sector of women you described as, "When you meet women without this flaw in reasoning, they are just as good as men at most any kind of reasoning, science, math, but those types are a small minority), while men in general hold this card in spades.

 

Kinda, close enough I guess, and a side point that I'd like to clarify is that lots of women seem to do fine with these things at work and school, the reasoning flaws I'm identifying seem to be related mainly to dealings with men and relationships.

 

One's ability to reason regarding science and math does not always equate to an ability to reason when it comes to human interaction, relationships, personal failures and being upfront and honest in it.

 

Disagree, reason is reason. Also disagree with people who claim there are all types of intelligence. IMO there is one intelligence and different people apply it in varying degrees to differently prioritized issues in their life, giving the illusion of different types of intelligence. In other words, IMO, a smarter person who has never prioritized relationships in their life can quickly outstrip a much less intelligent person in general understanding once the smarter person begins to focus on relationships. IMO that we are all unique and special in our specific talents is faux egalitarian claptrap.

 

What I'm talking about with women creating a favorable reality is not the same as intelligence, but has something to do with the different ways the genders manipulate the environment to achieve goals.

 

This board isn't exactly brimming with "rational" men and "illogical" women.

 

Oh it sure is, with notable exceptions in both genders, but it sure is.

 

The way a man approaches or thinks about a problem isn't "better" then the way a woman might.

 

It is actually, at least as far as obtaining the desired results in the environment.

 

Both men and women use reasoning and logic. We don't live in a world where men are running around completely in control, logical and rational while women are walking around cross-eyed sucking on lollipops.

 

The fact that you equated what I posted to the above helps prove my point.

 

Men make mistakes, just as much as women. And they make them because of a mixture of factors, just like women.

 

No one said otherwise, men just accept accountability for their mistakes better.

 

By the way, women in general tend to be more verbal and use more words then men do. Are we going to say that women are better communicators because of that? I certainly don't think women are always better communicators. Do you?

 

Unrelated and irrelevant, you are making my arguments for me.

 

Do you realize what is so ironic in this whole thread? That most of the men that have responded to it are quick to say women can't admit when they are wrong but not one man here ever admitted that he is sometimes wrong and is honest about it when he is. Most of the guys that responded to this thread where quick to point their fingers at women and make judgements with no real raw honesty about themselves on their part.

 

Will just pluck phineas out of the air as one example, have seen him posting in the past and acknowledging that his prior problems with women stemmed from his expectation that they would accept him as he was, and that once he realized that error he corrected it by getting in good physical shape. Sorry if I have mischaracterized phineas' posts, may have him confused with someone else, but that seems like a clear acceptance of accountability to me and once realized, taking steps to correct. I don't see much of that among women in these parts, maybe a handful.

[dasein]

Mistake of pyro as female, he may as well be as I've never seen him agree with any male poster here or call a female poster to task.

[xxoo]

Have been thinking on this and was wanting some clarification. I have maintained that women tend to have an overbroad sense of contextual relevancy as part of a defense mechanism stemming from fear of being wrong. You state here that men tend to have a too narrow sense of contextual relevancy. Would be interested in hearing this fleshed out some, and also what you think the motive is, also the desire to be right? or something else?

 

Desire to be right, and desire to understand the world as you (general you) know it. We all make assumptions, based on facts, to help us understand our world. But the accuracy of these assumptions relies on context.

 

I think it was you who mentioned math and science upthread. When I was a kid, boys outperformed girls in math and science. It was assumed that boys are better than girls at math and science. The facts appeared to support that assumption.

 

But then that assumption was challenged, and areas were identified where boys were encouraged, and girls discouraged, in math and science. Efforts were made to encourage girls equally.

 

Current research demonstrates no significant gap between the genders.

 

Fact: boys outperformed girls in math and science in 1970s

Incorrect assumption: boys are inherently better at math and science than girls

[dasein]

Fact: boys outperformed girls in math and science in 1970s

Incorrect assumption: boys are inherently better at math and science than girls

 

OK, so how is the difference in outcomes explained then?

 

I don't accept that women have been discouraged from math and science, if such ever was the case, it hasn't been for a long long time, just another feminist platitude. Also don't accept as credible any research of any type that issues from a "women's studies" department.

 

I stick with my contention that women generally don't like modes of thinking such as the scientific method, math and analytical philosophy because such fields are conducted via rigid, objective rulesets that don't allow for manipulation of "reality" with language in the way the social sciences seem to.

[Pyro]

The above is a perfect example of what I'm talking about, and see it daily here. Someone makes a generalization, then instead of disagreeing with that generalization in a straightforward way, a female poster distorts what was actually said to the point of ridiculousness. Stating that "IME most women have trouble accepting blame" does not equal stating "the millions and millions of women that make up the female gender are all evil."

 

Maybe not to you but others may see it differently.

 

Mistake of pyro as female, he may as well be as I've never seen him agree with any male poster here or call a female poster to task.

 

I do agree with some of the males here on certain points but that is a rarity because most of the guys on here (yourself included) have a warped view on dating/women.

[dasein]

Maybe not to you but others may see it differently.

 

See it however you like, distortions such as the ones I cited are still wrong and show either flaws in reasoning or intentional distortion. There are certain ways in which reality is subjective and certain ways in which it is definitely not. If I say "bicycles have two wheels," and you reply "so you are saying bicycles suck compared to cars," that's wrong, and no difference in POV corrects it.

[blueskyday]

I usually don't admit it my mistakes to men, honestly, because I have been burned by my admissions in the past.

 

I am analytical and split evenly between left and right brain, so I know my own limitations and will take in new information and factors to change my mind about past assumptions.

 

The problem is, and I don't want to generalize here, but with the men I've dated they tend to jump on any admission of fault I make and point to that as 100% the problem...or later use it against me to assuage their own ego, thereby absolving them of ANY culpability.

 

Ugh, I know I have made mistakes in the past of picking men who won't take responsibility.

 

Now, I'm gun shy. I am reluctant to admit a mistake unless a guy is willing to do the same. Or if I do go first, I wait to see if he will at least admit something on his side to show that he cares I'm showing a vulnerability.

 

We women apologize like this:

 

Suzy: I'm sorry I was such a b*tch. I thought you hated me and I got scared. I shouldn't have said what I did.

 

Kim: No, it was me. I'm sorry I have been distant lately. It's not your fault.

 

See? There is a lot of recognition and face-saving given to to other person.

 

With many men (not all, I know!) it goes like this

 

Suzy: I'm sorry I was such a b*tch. I thought you hated me and I got scared. I shouldn't have said what I did.

 

Tom: Ok, well you are probably getting your period. Next time don't yell at me. I work a long hard day and I just want to relax when I get home. Is there any beer in the fridge?

 

I'm trying to be funny, but quite often guys don't admit their contribution to a situation, however implausible it might be. I get that, other men could seize upon that "vulnerability."

 

But, we women like that. It shows you care. Just a difference that is sometimes there and causes conflict.

[dasein]

I haven't experienced that at all, nor heard of such from my friends. There are times when women will admit fault, when they are SO in the wrong and SO out of line that even they see the irrationality.

 

After a hard day's work that involved both mental and physical stress, I went to my GF's house, we had talked about having a quiet night in because I was exhausted. I was looking forward to that, and took her flowers and wine. When I got to her house, she was dressed to the nines and had made reservations at an extremely showy expensive restaurant. I didn't show my disappointment, went out, and was putting on a brave face during the meal, laughing and joking as we ate $300 or so worth of a tiny amount of food. LOL.

 

She looks across the table and says, I kid you not, "Sometimes I think you aren't "into" us enough." I looked around the restaurant slowly, down at the food, got a mental image of the flowers and wine, and then fixed her with a dead stare and a pretty grim look. She began apologizing profusely. IME it takes THAT level of f-up for them to admit any blame at all.

[phineas]

Your post was very interesting! I have one word for what you described: selfishness. Both sexes are selfish - all peope are painfully selfish. People will do whatever it takes to get what they want. If women don't stick to the point and facts because they want a different reality, men will stick to the mere facts and narrow points to avoid the real reality. We all know what we're doing, we all know we pull to our side, and we all convince ourselves that we have a good cause worth fighting for. If we humans could let go of our urge to control others, we would all be much happier - not because other people won't control us anymore, but because we won't have to suffer while trying to control others.

 

Ok, but i've had a female poster from this site seemingly imagine things about me on more than one occassion in order to take jabs at me or try to win some argument & when called on it & taken to task she just ignore's me & makes off-hand comments to still get her jabs in.

 

The reality is in the post history of this site & nowhere does my posting history match up to that female posters reality.

 

You cannot mince the facts in this case.

This is a prime example of either warping reality or just refusing to ackowledge doing wrong.

 

I think it is not only a gender specific trait but also a subject matter trait because I moderate a political forum & I see more men do it than women & see women call out men on their fabricated attacks towards other members & politcians.

 

Yet here I see more women bend reality than men.

[xxoo]

OK, so how is the difference in outcomes explained then?

 

I don't accept that women have been discouraged from math and science, if such ever was the case, it hasn't been for a long long time, just another feminist platitude. Also don't accept as any research of any type that issues from a "women's studies" department.

 

I stick with my contention that women generally don't like modes of thinking such as the scientific method, math and analytical philosophy because such fields are conducted via rigid, objective rulesets that don't allow for manipulation of "reality" with language in the way the social sciences seem to.

 

Here is another, more recent study. It shows that boys are still outperforming girls at the very HIGHEST levels, but no difference at the average levels of aptitude. Full study here

 

Figure 1 on page 4 of the full study graphs how much the gap at extreme right tail has closed in the past 30 years, although it still exists.

 

Interesting stuff!

[dasein]

Here is another, more recent study. It shows that boys are still outperforming girls at the very HIGHEST levels, but no difference at the average levels of aptitude. Full study here

 

Figure 1 on page 4 of the full study graphs how much the gap at extreme right tail has closed in the past 30 years, although it still exists.

 

Interesting stuff!

 

You know what? the standardized tests those studies are based on have been gender normed for 40 years by the folks who make the tests. In other words, the questions are tailored specifically to narrow the variance in correct response rate between male and female. This has been done to "correct" the issue of women scoring lower on math than men, and probably men scoring less on verbal than women, and there's no way of knowing whether the studies describe a narrowing gap or merely successful gender norming.

I don't disagree that there are outliers. Personally, I'm better on verbal tests than math, and have no doubt lots of women here would outscore me on those areas.

 

The question remains though, why... the... different... outcome? Any supposed pressuring of women away from science/math, if it ever did exist (which I doubt) certainly hasn't existed for decades. Why the different outcome then? I submit it's because women don't like being constricted by rules of reasoning. It deprives them of the power of rationalization. It explains why they are drawn to fields such as marketing and social sciences.

.

Edited November 21, 2011 by dasein

[blueskyday]

I do believe YOU are rationalizing.

 

I come from a scientific background. I am extremely linear in my thinking when I want to be, but I can also think contextually, as in a more web-oriented way of thinking.

 

I find most men would like to put me in a box, but I move easily between both ways of thinking, and I am a sexy girl. Confusing for a lot of men. We women are multi-faceted.

 

I don't much appreciate your line of thinking, but I understand how you got there.

Edited November 21, 2011 by blueskyday

[xxoo]

You know what? the standardized tests those studies are based on have been gender normed for 40 years by the folks who make the tests. In other words, the questions are tailored specifically to narrow the variance in correct response rate between male and female. This has been done to "correct" the issue of women scoring lower on math than men, and probably men scoring less on verbal than women, and there's no way of knowing whether the studies describe a narrowing gap or merely successful gender norming.

I don't disagree that there are outliers. Personally, I'm better on verbal tests than math, and have no doubt lots of women here would outscore me on those areas.

 

The question remains though, why... the... different... outcome? Any supposed pressuring of women away from science/math, if it ever did exist (which I doubt) certainly hasn't existed for decades. Why the different outcome then? I submit it's because women don't like being constricted by rules of reasoning. It deprives them of the power of rationalization. It explains why they are drawn to fields such as marketing and social sciences.

.

 

Did you read the study? It answers a lot of your questions.

[Mme. Chaucer]

There are certainly both men and women who seem incapable of admitting they are wrong. We get lots of evidence of this by reading threads here on LS. When we get to know a poster and notice that most of their contributions here involve finger pointing at others, we are probably not off base if we get the idea that they rarely if ever admit that they are wrong in real life. The most vociferous of these types resort to manufacturing "facts" (or googling for spurious supporting "facts") to disprove dissenting opinions to theirs, and usually resort to efforts at online character assassination if they feel threatened about perhaps being seen as "wrong."

 

I am a woman, and I believe that one of the most important keys to successful relationships - personal and professional alike - is to acknowledge when I am wrong and to move quickly to make improvements. I do it frequently (because, sadly, I am often wrong).

 

In my business life (I owned a sales firm) I encountered more women who readily owned up to mistakes than men.

 

There is an archetypical kind of "right man" who will NEVER admit that he is wrong which is labeled "paternalistic" and / or "authoritarian." Some women fall into this category, but it's usually the province of a male.