ThsAmericanLife Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 There are women who like in that video will call the boss on the phone if the unattractive man even says hi in real life.. I'm sure this is alot of men's worst fear but any woman who does that seriously risks her credibility... and her own career. If a woman did this, a company would find a way to slowly but surely segue her out. I"ve observed it myself. There was a woman at my prior company who accused a highly respected fellow engineer of staring at her breasts (never mind that she had very large ones that she somehow rarely managed to keep under professional attire). You couldn't help but look at them... both men and women. If they are half hanging out, they kind of scream for attention. Anyway, I'd worked with the man in question and found him to be the epitome of professionalism and diplomacy. I'm pretty good at a-hole detection, and he couldn't be further from that. 2-3 years later, she's gently pushed out. The man is doing just fine.
Taramere Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 @beachgirl. The thing is the way what behavior is considered inappropriate is defined. Every legal definition of "harassment" includes the term "unwelcome" or "unwanted". Creepy behavior could be thought of as behavior that's not quite illegal harassment. So weather it is creepy or not depends on weather it is welcome or unwelcome. I think most reasonable people would not immediately describe themselves as being harassed simply because they didn't welcome another person's approach. You mentioned the legal definition of harassment including the term unwelcome or unwanted. Those definitions will also go on to define it in terms of being behaviour that humiliates another person, violates their dignity or intimidates them. I think that's a definition people will tend to refer to in ordinary life situations - not just in a courtroom. For me to say "my God...a man said hello to me while I was walking in the part. That's total harassment" would be ridiculous. If he said "hello slut, want to suck my dick?" then that would clearly be harassment because it's very evident that his intention is at the very minimum to cause offence and embarrassment. That's what the OP and others here are beefing about. Why should such a harsh judgement befall men who approach just to talk to a woman? I don't think in most cases harsh judgements do befall them. Not unless they're being rude in the way they do it...for instance, cutting in on a conversation or making an opening remark that's insulting and merits a dismissive response. Otherwise, if he's being friendly and polite...and gets an obnoxious response back, I think most people are going to agree that that's poor form on the part of the responder. However, people of both genders are capable of being rude or anti-social. When I went backpacking years ago, I would stay in dorms with other people. The usual thing was that you'd walk into a dorm (which were usually single sex), say hi and introduce yourself to the others. Almost always it would result in a friendly response. however, once in a blue moon you'd encounter somebody who would respond in a snooty way. In one dorm I was in, a woman was acting like that. The next day the girl at reception asked if I'd had a problem with her. I said "well she wasn't exactly friendly". The girl said that others had complained about her and they'd asked her to leave the hostel because her attitude was making others uncomfortable and they weren't prepared to reward her for it by upgrading her to a private room. That same snooty girl might be the same one who gives a guy an aghast "my God, are you some sort of pervert?" look if he says hi. However, I think it would be a mistake to assume that society generally condones that kind of snotty response. If a man is continually finding that every woman he approaches is responding rudely or in a mildly horrified way, then either he's being exceptionally unlucky in continually approaching women whose behaviour verges on the anti-social...or there's something about his approach that is itself anti-social. Again, I think it's probably just more likely that the encounters with snotty people tend to stick in the mind more than the normal interactions do.
Beachgirl8 Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 No, IMO the video is saying that women aren't as ready to classify the actions of a handsome man as "creepy" in the first place. There is universally creepy behavior, sending someone a picture of a shrine made in someone's honor, cutting off an ear out of love, etc., but most all other behavior that women deem creepy is contextual. A naked man chasing a woman around the house may not be creepy behavior if they are BF/GF. A simple invitation to go out may be very creepy if delivered by a guy who popped out from under a car in a parking deck at night. I'm not disagreeing with you. Using the example of the video, the first woman is overlooking obviously creepy workplace behavior ("you're hot", grabbing her breast) simply because he is attractive. That doesn't mean its not still bad behavior. It means she's being stupid and overlooking it because he's good looking. When the woman calls HR simply because the guy said "hi", she is making up creepy behavior in her mind because the guy is unattractive. In both cases the woman is wrong and is being ridiculous. My point was the opposite is true as well. Some men can accept and rationalize poor behavior from attractive women, while ridiculing and getting annoyed at any attention from an unattractive one. saying saying, "men do it too!" I'm not trying to blame shift or excuse her behavior. I'm simply pointing out that this type of behavior isn't solely exhibited by women, and in my opinion is wrong either way. Women tend to use the word creep in this instance. Men use other words and terms that are equally offensive, the one coming to mind at the moment is "fatties" but there are much worse ones that men use to dismiss unwanted attention from women they aren't physically attracted to. The thread topic of labeling some behavior as creepy when it is unjustified is spelled out in the video where the guy is just saying hi.
Mme. Chaucer Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 (edited) I have experienced behavior from men that I thought was "creepy," and which caused me to categorize a guy as a "creep." Examples: > Meeting a man for the first time in a casual business environment, and he gives me a "handshake" that is far too lingering and features a CREEPY tickle of my palm with his middle finger. > Being on the receiving end of "benign" stalking. When I was in my early 20's, there was a man who appeared in all kinds of unlikely places where I was. It started with him being in the record store where I worked, frequently. He acted friendly, but he did not ask me out. I had an uneasy feeling, but there was nothing really wrong with any aspect of his behavior. I also felt a bit flattered. He was a cool looking "rocker" dude. One time I saw him in the parking lot of a restaurant I was entering with a group of friends in a city 50 miles away from where I lived and worked. He spoke to me; "fancy meeting you here" type of thing. There were other examples of him showing up, but the real capper was when I was driving on the freeway in my Volkswagon bug. The car had the trunk in the front. For some reason (?) my trunk evidently was unlatched and it flew open while I was going about 60 MPH. I had clothes in the trunk which billowed out and blew all over the road. I was able to pull over on the shoulder without getting into a horrible accident, and while I was standing there, catching my breath and thinking about how to dodge in and out of the speeding traffic to retrieve my garments … guess who pulled over on the shoulder right behind me? Guess who came to my rescue? CREEPY CREEP CREEP CREEPSTER. I'm actually having the heebie-geebie feeling right now just remembering it. Also, in "womanese," "creep" and "jerk" are NOT interchangeable at all. "Creepy" behavior produces a quite visceral reaction that might border on repulsion. Hair on the back of your neck stands up; you feel like shuddering. "Jerk" behavior usually results in various degrees of dismissal to anger. "Creepy" behavior is usually covert, while a "jerk" behaves more aggressively or carelessly. IMO. A "creep" will be more likely to stealthily invade a person's space, while a "jerk" might grab their ass. I have been on the receiving end of "creepy" behavior from a woman, too. That involved a neighbor who was becoming more and more "helpful" and stealthily intrusive in my life. Edited November 19, 2011 by Mme. Chaucer
PlumPrincess Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 Well, I THOUGHT you were pointing out his age, because you thought the age difference was so great, that you were focused on that or something. And it's understandable how one can find it creepy for that reason. I was actually sympathizing with you, because I know of men like this. There was this one guy, probably looked to be in his 50's, saw the young cashiers name tag when he was checking out his groceries. And made some cute, romantic rhyme involving her name and he left. I have never seen a look on her face that looked like something I saw in a horror movie, the only thing was, it wasn't acting. She looked genuinely nauseous and creeped out at the same time. I said, "Hey, it looks like you're about to be sick, sha'll I grab a bag? Paper or plastic?" LOL Uhoh... I'm very, very sorry, I re-read your post and you are right. His age did add to the feeling that it was inappropriate, but even with a younger guy I would have felt weirded out.
PlumPrincess Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 When people are using words like slut or creep, often they're just giving you an insight into their own feelings of self-loathing. What kind of theory is this??
Author joystickd Posted November 19, 2011 Author Posted November 19, 2011 http://modeone.blogspot.com/2011/05/listen-to-internet-radio-with-alan_13.html A link to an interview with Clarisse Thorn talking about this article
Taramere Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 Also, in "womanese," "creep" and "jerk" are NOT interchangeable at all. "Creepy" behavior produces a quite visceral reaction that might border on repulsion. Hair on the back of your neck stands up; you feel like shuddering. "Jerk" behavior usually results in various degrees of dismissal to anger. "Creepy" behavior is usually covert, while a "jerk" behaves more aggressively or carelessly. IMO. A "creep" will be more likely to stealthily invade a person's space, while a "jerk" might grab their ass. I have been on the receiving end of "creepy" behavior from a woman, too. That involved a neighbor who was becoming more and more "helpful" and stealthily intrusive in my life. There's an old quote, and I don't know whose it is, but it's that a gentleman "never insults anyone by accident." That could be interpreted in various ways. I take it as meaning that a "gentleman" (or "lady") is somebody who has highly developed social skills. The ability to balance friendliness and a welcoming manner without getting too much into other people's space. If they do behave like a jerk or a bitch, they'll own it. So if a gentleman goes into jerk mode and slaps your backside, he'll likely accept whatever reaction you give in good grace...unless it's a hysterical reaction that's out of all proportion. A creep, on the other hand, will covertly fondle your backside on a crowded train so that he can cry wounded innocence if and when when you confront him. I think most men who worry about making women uncomfortable likely have nothing to worry about with the majority of women. The men who are the real creeps are the ones who are quite focused on deliberately making women uncomfortable. Our instincts might not have evidential value in the broader sense. We might not be wise to talk openly about our instincts as they create offence and result in demands to "prove it". However, in our private, personal decisions about who we should and shouldn't interact with, I think instincts are generally the best evidence we have.
Taramere Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 What kind of theory is this?? Is that a genuine question or an expression of disagreement?
Mme. Chaucer Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 From the perspective of the "Creep": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gg3hqSDYmM
PlumPrincess Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 Is that a genuine question or an expression of disagreement? Disagreement! I guess, I have my own personal issues like anybody else, but when I call someone a creep, it doesn't have much to do with them. But whatever, I prefer to trust my instinct when it says creep and run as fast as I can. Better safe than nice and sorry.
Mme. Chaucer Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 I have a dear friend who has Asperger's Syndrome. When he was younger (undiagnosed, as well), he was always considered a "creep" by people who didn't know him well. It was his lack of social skills, especially his complete obliviousness to other peoples' "cues" that earned him the title. Boys and girls alike got the visceral reaction I'm talking about when they were dealing with Otis. Girls ran from his love! (Unless they were completely loaded.) He's very brilliant and when you get him on a subject he's knowledgable about, and there are many, he is amazing to talk to. You can fall into an absolute vortex of complexity … Now he's about 50 years old and he's come into his own very nicely. He's been married (to a very attractive woman, BTW - and he was / is not exactly good looking himself) for over a decade, they have 2 amazing children, and he's become more and more accomplished in his work (academia). I know for a fact that his lovely wife has put some effort into helping him improve his etiquette. Not needing to navigate socially amongst a bunch of heat-seeking people in their 20's has been good for him. My point? Though he had much that was great about him, Otis did not behave in socially appropriate ways, mostly. I mean, he might even pick his nose in public! There was crusty food in the corners of his mouth! People reacted to this, and he was pretty much an outlier. His "unpopularity" stemmed from … him. Not "fair," but true. So it was not that this person was a creep because he was unpopular. It was more that he could never be popular because of his creepiness. P.S. I'm a creepy slut.
dasein Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 My point was the opposite is true as well. Some men can accept and rationalize poor behavior from attractive women, while ridiculing and getting annoyed at any attention from an unattractive one. Oh sure, agreed totally with the rationalize poor behavior from attractive women, buy don't really see men getting put out with unwanted attention from women the way women do. Men can also be devastatingly crude in describing women negatively whom tney don't find attractive.
Taramere Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 (edited) Disagreement! I guess, I have my own personal issues like anybody else, but when I call someone a creep, it doesn't have much to do with them. But whatever, I prefer to trust my instinct when it says creep and run as fast as I can. Better safe than nice and sorry. My stance is that generally calling people names like "slut" or "creep" is pretty anti-social behaviour. Most people use those terms occasionally, but the people who do it habitually are not, in my experience, generally people who seem to have very high self esteem. Message board trolls are a good example. If you're reasonable at picking out people's posting styles you'll tend to recognise the other board ids that trolls have. Often, in those other board ids, they'll express lengthy rants about hating themselves. In angry troll mode, they'll just hurl out abusive names at everybody else. Having instincts that say "this isn't a person I want to deal with" is something different...and yes, I agree about acting on those instincts. However, directly calling people names doesn't really achieve anything - and I'm not saying you do this. I have no idea whether you do or not. My point that you disagreed with was that people who use such terminology openly and towards people, as a form of attack, are probably acting from a place of self loathing when they do that. It's not language that is exactly indicative of a person being in a happy place. If you wanted to theorise it, the applicable theory could be "projection". Name-calling is something different from simply experiencing warning instincts and acting on them. If you do believe somebody may well be a creep, and that you may be at risk from them, then your emphasis is going to be on getting safely away from them. Except in the situation where, for example, they're touching you up in a crowded place. Then "get your hand off my ass you creep" is a good way of letting them know that you know what they're doing isn't an accident, and you won't be buying any excuse to the contrary. The justification is that you want to discourage them from behaving like that in future with other female commuters. Generally, though, if somebody is genuinely a creep you'll be putting yourself at greater risk by calling them that name. Being polite but firm - and focusing on getting away from them - is safer than getting into a face to face confrontation is. If you're discussing a creepy incident with a friend, you might both say things like "what a creep...." as a way of venting. Throwing names at a person doesn't generally protect you from anything, however. It's more usually just a way of trying to make others feel bad about themselves. Edited November 19, 2011 by Taramere
PlumPrincess Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 My stance is that generally calling people names like "slut" or "creep" is pretty anti-social behaviour. Most people use those terms occasionally, but the people who do it habitually are not, in my experience, generally people who seem to have very high self esteem. Having instincts that say "this isn't a person I want to deal with" is something different...and yes, I agree about acting on those instincts. However, directly calling people names doesn't really achieve anything - and I'm not saying you do this. I have no idea whether you do or not. My point that you disagreed with was that people who use such terminology openly and towards people, as a form of attack, are probably acting from a place of self loathing when they do that. It's not language that is exactly indicative of a person being in a happy place. If you wanted to theorise it, the applicable theory could be "projection". Name-calling is something different from simply experiencing warning instincts and acting on them. If you do believe somebody may well be a creep, and that you may be at risk from them, then your emphasis is going to be on getting safely away from them. Except in the situation where, for example, they're touching you up in a crowded place. Then "get your hand off my ass you creep" is a good way of letting them know that you know what they're doing isn't an accident, and you won't be buying any excuse to the contrary. The justification is that you want to discourage them from behaving like that in future with other female commuters. Generally, though, if somebody is genuinely a creep you'll be putting yourself at greater risk by calling them that name. Being polite but firm - and focusing on getting away from them - is safer than getting into a face to face confrontation is. If you're discussing a creepy incident with a friend, you might both say things like "what a creep...." as a way of venting. Throwing names at a person doesn't generally protect you from anything, however. It's more usually just a way of trying to make others feel bad about themselves. Ok. I prefer to run and not engage in conversations with them. Like I said, there the kind of people that make me think that they might want to lock you up in their basement.
Disenchantedly Yours Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 No, there's a difference between a straightforward, appropriate and respectful expression of sexual desire and an inaccurate characterization. Walking up to a strange woman and asking for sex directly would be inappropriate, because the sex act for most people presumes some degree of personal intimacy. Asking a woman for sex while out on a date would not be inappropriate. The appropriate responses to an appropriate approach would be "yes," "no," or some variant. I think that's a little too board Dasein. Just because you go out on a date with a woman, doesn't mean a man is entitled to ask for sex. Naturally dating is a precursor to a deeper relationship or a sexual one and certainly not all cases where a man asks for sex during a date, is it always inappropriate. But it's not always appropiate either. I've dated a lot of men that seemed to think certain behavior was acceptable that I disagreed with. I turned them down and it did lower my opinion of them. Is it wrong for my opinon to be lowered of them based on their actions? I'm not so sure. I would never go so far to call them names because that is inappropiate but we clearly didn't have the same values. While I don't condone disrespecting regular guys and calling them "creepy" when they've done nothing to be creepy for, I think if we want men to honestly be able to express their sexual feelings, then in turn, we have to be prepared for the response that will draw. And further, men would have to give pass to women to honestly express their feelings as well. And we have to be honest that people hold different ideas about what is acceptable sexual behavior and what isn't.
Disenchantedly Yours Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 Let me say that I certainly don't think most men are criminals or are creepy. And I don't agree with the use of the word. There is a reason why women error on the side of wanting to be safe. Here is an interesting article from Pyschology Today. Try the test at the bottom of the article. I got most of the answers right (even for the men that committed acts of rape) , but there were a few I got wrong. Take the test and let us know how you did! Criminals Look Different From Non Criminals
Taramere Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 Ok. I prefer to run and not engage in conversations with them. Like I said, there the kind of people that make me think that they might want to lock you up in their basement. Yeah. Getting away is the priority. Sometimes you have little choice but to try to talk your way out of it though. Once (again when travelling - which exposes you to plenty of creepiness) a hostel owner was driving me to the station. He'd seemed a tiny bit creepy in my interactions with him, but not so much that I regarded him as a potential sex offender. Anyway, he stopped the car in a deserted road. "I think you are very pretty." "Thanks. Could we get to the station? I don't want to miss my train." (strokes my arm) "Your skin is like a child's." "I don't want to be touched. If it's a problem driving me to the station, I can easily walk. I don't want to inconvenience you." (throwing hands in air) "Sorreeee for touching pretty skin. I'm not a rapist. I'm a family man. Good husband, good father..." "I'm sure you're a fantastic husband and father. I can easily walk to the station if this is inconveniencing you..." He then very sulkily drove me to the station. I think his aim with the whole "sorreee! (you're shaming me by making me feel like a rapist)" crap was a deliberate attempt to engineer the kind of confrontation that could have ended with a physical attack. When you're cornered like that you haven't much option but to engage with the person. But yes, generally just trying to ge away from them with the minimum of discussion is best.
dasein Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 I think that's a little too board Dasein. Just because you go out on a date with a woman, doesn't mean a man is entitled to ask for sex. Sure it does, sex isn't some mystical magical thing any more, and if it is for a particular woman she can simply decline the invitation or vet men on their feelings before dating them. People have a right to ask for anything they want that isn't criminal, as long as it is done in a respectful way that doesn't degrade or humiliate the other person. Is it wrong for my opinon to be lowered of them based on their actions? I'm not so sure. I would never go so far to call them names because that is inappropiate but we clearly didn't have the same values. No, there's nothing wrong with rejecting polite advances, but attributing advances to a character flaw in the man is unreasonable IMO. People meet, have different views on whatever, and through interaction determine whether their views and desires are compatible. If part of a value system characterizes others merely on their reasonably expressing desire for normal activity, then IMO that's an immature value system. then in turn, we have to be prepared for the response that will draw. And in most cases, that response should be a simple "yes" or "no," not outrage, indignation, petulance, or characterizing the asker wrongly. There is subtext in this thread that some women expect men to do the equivalent of "pay tribute" to the female sexual power through courtship rituals, and if that ever was a reasonable expectation, it is not one today. I will handle dating a virgin with kid gloves, but don't think I've ever dated one, all the way back to HS, and am certain I've never slept with one. If a woman expects to be thought of as equal to a man, trying to maintain some magic bubble of implied courtly respect around female sexuality is unrealistic and counterproductive to equality.
Disenchantedly Yours Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 dasein Sure it does, sex isn't some mystical magical thing any more, and if it is for a particular woman she can simply decline the invitation or vet men on their feelings before dating them. This is a case of two people disagreeing about what they feel comfortable about. Who is right and who is wrong? Could we both possibly be right in our own retrospective lives on how we want to conduct ourselves and establish romantic relationships? As I said before, invitations to sex aren't always inappropiate.A person has to know how to read a situation. But going out on a date alone doesn't mean that an invitation to sex is always appriopiate either. Just because I choose to go out on a date with a man, doesn't mean I want to have sex with him. Dates are about getting to know someone. Getting to know if you are compatible. And making the assumption that all dates are about being open to sex as well seems rather archaic and of the belief that if a man buys a woman dinner he deserve to get sex in return. It depends how the other half (the person your dating) feels about the situation themselves. And you need to take that into consideration and not shame them for feeling that way just as much as you don't want to be shamed yourself. As I said, I don't condone name calling at all. But that doesn't mean that if a woman feels like she is being treated disrespectedly or feels that she is in an unsafe situation, that she can't have those feelings either. People have a right to ask for anything they want that isn't criminal, as long as it is done in a respectful way that doesn't degrade or humiliate the other person. Well we disagree. I don't think people have to right to ask for anything they want. That's rather selfish and self serving. If someone wants an interactions and relationship with someone, it would beget them to consider ther person they are engaging with, their feelings as well. You also don't get to determine for someone else what is respectful and what isn't. We all have different ideas about what respectful behavior is and isn't. But there is no need to humilate and degrade someone else just because you don't agree with them. That much is true. No, there's nothing wrong with rejecting polite advances, but attributing advances to a character flaw in the man is unreasonable IMO What is a "polite" advanced? I am still foggy on this because we keep saying things like "friendly" and "polite" but in terms of sex, often sexual approaches are not chummy friendly or super polite. And in most cases, that response should be a simple "yes" or "no," not outrage, indignation, petulance, or characterizing the asker wrongly. Well why not? If a man is feeling horny and makes a move on a woman he is with, is he not acting on his feelings? Why would a response to his feelings, whether positive or negative be wrong if what we are talking about is honesty in feelings? If a woman expects to be thought of as equal to a man, trying to maintain some magic bubble of implied courtly respect around female sexuality is unrealistic and counterproductive to equality. So basically you want to turn men and women into unisex beings? Equality between men and women is able to happen just as much as maintaining, exploring, and celebrating the differences in men and women and their sometimes differeing needs.
Mrlonelyone Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 Let me say that I certainly don't think most men are criminals or are creepy. And I don't agree with the use of the word. There is a reason why women error on the side of wanting to be safe. Here is an interesting article from Pyschology Today. Try the test at the bottom of the article. I got most of the answers right (even for the men that committed acts of rape) , but there were a few I got wrong. Take the test and let us know how you did! Criminals Look Different From Non Criminals If that's your source then it proves that in the most crucial way women are bad judges of character. There is one seemingly anomalous finding in their paper. In both experiments, women are unable to spot rapists. Women consistently rate convicted rapists to be less likely to be criminal than not only other types of criminals but noncriminals as well! While this may be initially puzzling, upon further reflection, it makes perfect sense, as Valla et al. explain in their paper. In order to be a successful rapist, the man has to be able to fool the woman and earn her trust initially. Men who "fit the bill" by looking like a rapist or otherwise criminal and dangerous would not be able to do that. They would not be able to get close enough to the women to rape them. This may be why women, but not men, are unable to spot rapists, even though women are equally good as men at spotting other types of criminals. So women are unable to spot a rapist. They probably think he's a great guy until they drink the rufies.
PlumPrincess Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 Let me say that I certainly don't think most men are criminals or are creepy. And I don't agree with the use of the word. There is a reason why women error on the side of wanting to be safe. Here is an interesting article from Pyschology Today. Try the test at the bottom of the article. I got most of the answers right (even for the men that committed acts of rape) , but there were a few I got wrong. Take the test and let us know how you did! Criminals Look Different From Non Criminals Not good! I only identified nine criminals, including two rapists.
Mme. Chaucer Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 I don't think there's any question; a person has the right to "ask for sex" from another person except in defined circumstances, which most of us are aware of. The person on the receiving end of the request also has the right to consider the asker to be a creep for asking it, or maybe for the way or the timing with which the request was posed. For me, this would include many dating scenarios where I would find it quite creepy to be "asked for sex." But if somebody feels like asking … ask away! And be ready for the consequences, which could be negative or great.
dasein Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 This is a case of two people disagreeing about what they feel comfortable about. Who is right and who is wrong? The only wrong is in characterizing people for being upfront about expressing their desires, otherwise people with all sorts of different values meet and decide to continue or not every day. But going out on a date alone doesn't mean that an invitation to sex is always appriopiate either. OK, sure there would be limited exceptions, if a woman told a man before the date that she found premarital sex offensive to her religion for example, a man's direct solicitation would be rude and insensitive, but not generally. IMO, it's more healthy to ask for something that both parties know is a possible result rather than try to tiptoe into it. "I'm having a blast, want to come back to my place and stay over?" Simple. Once I started conducting myself in this manner, two things happened, women started respecting me more, and I started getting laid A TON more. Both good things. I have never had a woman respond badly to a respectful sexual advance. Many have declined, and in fact, lots who decline either make an about face by the end of the evening, or soon thereafter. Lots of women want sex, lots of women want relatively hassle free sex. Those are given realities of our social world today. If I am careful not to ask in a menacing, disrespectful, passive aggressive way, they appreciate the honesty... and the power. A majority of women like to be led, and they like to be led by a man who knows that he wants her. If a guy acts all squirmy and uncomfortable, she may respond badly. If he addresses the question in a matter of fact, "not going to bring the world to an end either way" fashion, they don't respond badly IME. Just because I choose to go out on a date with a man, doesn't mean I want to have sex with him. That's why he finds out by -asking- you directly. archaic and of the belief that if a man buys a woman dinner he deserve to get sex in return. That that ever was the case is a convenient, feminist, Hollywood myth. I've never known a rational, adult man who expected sex based merely on buying a woman dinner or taking her out. Asking and expecting are two different things anyway. Merely asking a woman to have sex is not expecting that one is entitled to it. Well we disagree. I don't think people have to right to ask for anything they want. That's rather selfish and self serving. BS, my job is to know what I want, not anticipate or patronize into some idealized vision of what women want and then apply that to every woman I meet. Her job is to know what she wants and to accept or decline my invitations, be they to a dance or to have sex. That serves both people's interests without undue, even potentially offensive assumptions being made and there's nothing selfish or self-serving about it. You also don't get to determine for someone else what is respectful and what isn't. Oh I sure do, because such things aren't entirely subjective and do in fact have objective elements. I could care less about tiptoeing around people who have eggshell thin sensibilities. In fact, being direct with those types is an excellent way to screen them out. What is a "polite" advanced? I am still foggy on this because we keep saying things like "friendly" and "polite" but in terms of sex, often sexual approaches are not chummy friendly or super polite. "Being close to you is driving me wild, would you like to spend the night?" So basically you want to turn men and women into unisex beings? Sure I guess until they make perfect sex robots. Don't get ridiculous with me and I won't get ridiculous with you.
ThsAmericanLife Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 A majority of women like to be led, and they like to be led by a man who knows that he wants her. Merely asking a woman to have sex is not expecting that one is entitled to it. Quick question... Do you go on subsequent dates with women who decline your request to 'lead' them into bed upon your suggestion? Somehow, I doubt it. So much for the majority of women. LOL. It is funny how often you project your personal preferences onto the whole female gender. And male gender too. I have no doubt that you only have relationships with women who are easily led. The rest are 'feminists'... LMAO.
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