ThsAmericanLife Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 I would say that some girls would think some guys are creeps... not because they do anything creepy, but girls that they have approached who weren't attracted to them, would just find them... creepy, even though they may be polite and a nice guy. The funny thing is if a guy that a girl is attracted to approaches her and they go out and he ends up being a bit weird, or a jerk, he may be classified as less of a creep than say guys in my previous paragraph. I agree with what Dasein says. And that video from Content is so true. It's just a word... Some men have words for some women that some women don't like either. I object to the wholesale stereotyping of 'men' or 'women'... It's time everyone just grow the frig up and just take responsibility for themselves... No one gets a free ride.
Woggle Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 The sad thing is that it cheapens the real complaints some women have by men who can't take no for an answer. It's why women who are sexually harassed have have such a hard time being believed. It's because the definition has become so vague that any man speaking to any woman can be considered creepy based on how attractive some women find him and who those women are. In the end it ends up hurting genuine victims. 1
Mrlonelyone Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 This is an example of a genuine creep. Lake Forest principal on leave after admitting to sending lewd photo, texts to college student November 17, 2011|By Lisa Black | Tribune reporter A Lake Forest middle school principal was placed on leave today after the Tribune began asking about how the district handled his use of a work cell phone to send a sexually explicit photograph of himself and messages to a college student who visited the school during an internship. John Steinert, 40, principal of Deer Path Middle School, pleaded guilty to misdemeanor harassment through electronic communications in May 2009 in the case involving a 22-year-old, according to court records. As a result of the legal matter, the Lake Forest School District 67 board issued a reprimand, required him to seek counseling and temporarily froze his salary, Supt. Harry Griffith said. VIDEO http://abclocal.go.com/wls/video?id=8437840 She made it clear enough she wasn't interested. He sent things like Pictures of his genitals...6 months latter. He ended up pleading guilty to charges of harassment by electronic communications, a misdemeanor in Illinois. Meanwhile what we are talking about here are the men who CLEARLY don't deserve that derision. The woman rejects them then places them for no reason in the same category as that guy. This would not be so bad if it wasn't for what I and others have noted about young women. They tend to pick a man as much based on others perception of him as how they feel about him. So a young man who gets rejected and called a creep by one woman is then a marked man to many may young women. "Oh your dating him that creep was rejected by Jill and jessica. Why would somene who looks like that think he's good enough for any of us? What a creep!" TL;DR A genuine creep like the man in the news story above deserves the name. 99% of the time it's just applied to a man who did not appeal to a particular woman. The problem arises is that if a man gets rejected in certain environments that young male posters here find themselves in it takes down their own credibility.
ThsAmericanLife Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 The sad thing is that it cheapens the real complaints some women have by men who can't take no for an answer. It's why women who are sexually harassed have have such a hard time being believed. It's because the definition has become so vague that any man speaking to any woman can be considered creepy based on how attractive some women find him and who those women are. In the end it ends up hurting genuine victims. Anyone claiming sexual harrassment (male or female) is compelled by law to demonstrate they have taken every reasonable action to make sure the other person knows their attention is not warranted. To the extent that the stakes are pretty high for the person being accused, I'm just fine with a pretty high standard of proof being applied. Anyone should have a hard time being 'believed'. It is a pretty big stretch to say that any man talking to any woman would be considered 'creepy'... It's all about context. If a person approached me in a public place with plenty of (friendly appearing) bystanders... that feels alot less 'creepy' than a person who approaches me in an environment where I'm physically vulnerable (at night, alone, etc). Some people seem a bit socially awkward in their understanding of how they come across to others, or don't have a sense of proper context. Or, they really don't care how they come across. They just want what they want, and think the other person is necessarily obliged to be nice about it. Getting negative feedback is one way that people learn what is or is not appropriate. No big deal.
ThsAmericanLife Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 This is an example of a genuine creep. She made it clear enough she wasn't interested. He sent things like Pictures of his genitals...6 months latter. He ended up pleading guilty to charges of harassment by electronic communications, a misdemeanor in Illinois. Meanwhile what we are talking about here are the men who CLEARLY don't deserve that derision. The woman rejects them then places them for no reason in the same category as that guy. This would not be so bad if it wasn't for what I and others have noted about young women. They tend to pick a man as much based on others perception of him as how they feel about him. So a young man who gets rejected and called a creep by one woman is then a marked man to many may young women. "Oh your dating him that creep was rejected by Jill and jessica. Why would somene who looks like that think he's good enough for any of us? What a creep!" TL;DR A genuine creep like the man in the news story above deserves the name. 99% of the time it's just applied to a man who did not appeal to a particular woman. The problem arises is that if a man gets rejected in certain environments that young male posters here find themselves in it takes down their own credibility. Maybe I have a blind spot in this respect... but I've never made a choice not to date someone just because he was rejected by someone else. I make up my own mind. I'd argue that everyone is a 'victim' of being stigmatized in some way. I'm not everyone's cup of tea either. I don't start threads whining about why men hate blondes, or how being called a b*tch has affected my dating life. Frankly, there are a few people who I'm very glad to be called a b*tch. Shows me that I got under their skin and that whatever I'm doing is 'working'. Got their goat, as my dad used to say. It's all about perspective... is what I'm saying. :D and people could really stand to lighten up. Being called a creep or a jerk isn't the end of the friggin' world.
EasyHeart Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 Thanks to this article, i have learned that women do not find men who follow them out of the library and whisper "I can smell your p*ssy" to be desirable. Who knew? I am crossing off "I can smell your p*ssy" from my list of sure-fire lines that make women melt.
irc333 Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 So if a man approached you and made his desires known in a straight forward honest and polite way would he be creepy to you She is more like, "This guy is creepy because he's old enough to be my dad, and he thinks he can get away with kissing me on the cheek, when a man my age should be doing it, not him" I think that's the point she was coming across I think the MAIN thing I'm noticing is young, 20 something women, who have older 40 or 50 something women trying to hit on them. Had he been a 20 something man, it probably would not have been as creepy.
Mrlonelyone Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 Maybe I have a blind spot in this respect... but I've never made a choice not to date someone just because he was rejected by someone else. I make up my own mind. I'd argue that everyone is a 'victim' of being stigmatized in some way. I'm not everyone's cup of tea either. I don't start threads whining about why men hate blondes, or how being called a b*tch has affected my dating life. Frankly, there are a few people who I'm very glad to be called a b*tch. Shows me that I got under their skin and that whatever I'm doing is 'working'. Got their goat, as my dad used to say. It's all about perspective... is what I'm saying. :D and people could really stand to lighten up. Being called a creep or a jerk isn't the end of the friggin' world. Allot of young women have made that decision based just on that. I have seen it plenty in real life. Perfectly good men who could not get dates because they were unpopular. You see, allot of young women simply don't want to deal with being associated with an unpopular man. The shrews of the school/campus/job will make comments and .... such things just make it not worth it. I know not all women do those things. But many do. (Just as I know that men will gladly screw someone who makes them horny. Few will choose a socially unacceptable partner. Maybe my being transgender and almost everyone I have ever dated being a hypocrite in just this way has something to do with my POV.)
PlumPrincess Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 She is more like, "This guy is creepy because he's old enough to be my dad, and he thinks he can get away with kissing me on the cheek, when a man my age should be doing it, not him" I think that's the point she was coming across I think the MAIN thing I'm noticing is young, 20 something women, who have older 40 or 50 something women trying to hit on them. Had he been a 20 something man, it probably would not have been as creepy. That's right, if he had been my age and good-looking, we would have done it right there on the restaurant table. You obviously don't seem to understand that this behavior was simply not appropriate. Well, learn to behave properly, then maybe you manage to get a date one day.
irc333 Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 That's right, if he had been my age and good-looking, we would have done it right there on the restaurant table. You obviously don't seem to understand that this behavior was simply not appropriate. Well, learn to behave properly, then maybe you manage to get a date one day. Well, I THOUGHT you were pointing out his age, because you thought the age difference was so great, that you were focused on that or something. And it's understandable how one can find it creepy for that reason. I was actually sympathizing with you, because I know of men like this. There was this one guy, probably looked to be in his 50's, saw the young cashiers name tag when he was checking out his groceries. And made some cute, romantic rhyme involving her name and he left. I have never seen a look on her face that looked like something I saw in a horror movie, the only thing was, it wasn't acting. She looked genuinely nauseous and creeped out at the same time. I said, "Hey, it looks like you're about to be sick, sha'll I grab a bag? Paper or plastic?" LOL
Cracker Jack Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 (edited) Really, it just comes down to how certain individuals use the word, since it's used so loosely nowadays. I think a guy walking up to a girl and asking her if he can suck her breasts is definitely a creep, and I don't believe a guy (unattractive in the woman's eyes) approaching her and trying to have a convo with her is a creep. That's silly. When I think of creepy, I think of an old guy watching a teen girl in her room with his binoculars--just an example. I also agree with TAL about not letting it get to you, but it's something about that word that just makes you feel....I dunno, disgusting or something. The idea of being considered creepy basically stops me from casually approaching women right now, which is a stupid reason, but I don't want to make any woman uncomfortable, so.... Edited November 19, 2011 by Cracker Jack
counterman Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 There are obvious creeps, but I've heard girl friends describe other guys I know as creeps before, and, in my opinion, they didn't do anything that creepy except for show interest. By the way, I haven't been called a creep before but if a girl I approached called me a creep or thought I was a creep just because she's not attracted to me, I couldn't care less. Would it stop me from approaching other girls? No. Because they have been plenty of girls who did not think I was creepy and went out with me, so there you go. I don't think, for example, a friend showing romantic interest in another friend is creepy but some people use that term so loosely that they would call it creepy, which I think is silly but to each their own.
Cracker Jack Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 I agree, counterman. I never been called a creep, either, but the idea of "creeping" a woman out bothers me. I do agree that the idea alone shouldn't be enough of a reason to not approach any women. I guess I just need to stop wondering if a woman "might" look at me as a creep for talking to her. I know a few guys who've approached and had a lot of women and they told me they were called "creeps" by women plenty of times but that they usually laughed it off and went for the next one.
Disenchantedly Yours Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 I have mixed feelings about this piece. There are some things she mentioned that I totally agree with and others I don’t. While I don’t think we should shame sexuality, what gives someone the right to feel they can freely express their sexuality toward their desired “target”? If we are going to acknowledge the freedom someone should have in expressing their sexuality to whom ever *they* choose, then shouldn’t we acknowledge the freedom someone should have in turn responding to that form of expression? And who is to say what is a respectful way to approach someone with your sexual desire and what isn’t? That’s really the crux of the problem. People have different ideas about what is a respectful way to express sexuality. So if you get a man approaching a woman that thinks he is doing so respectfully, but she disagrees and feels offended by his approach, where does that leave them? Usually with her categorizing him as an unstable individual (i.e. “creep”) But who is to say she isn’t allowed to feel freaked out by his approach if it didn’t fit into her own ideas about what is a respectful way to deal with sexuality? I do agree that women can over use the word “creep”. But in general “creep” is applied to any man who behaves outside the social normal as defined by the person labeling him. It’s not a word used specific to male sexuality. It’s usually in response to a woman feeling somewhat threatened. It’s also usually applied to men that are strangers more then a man a woman might already know. Thorn had asked, “so how can a man express his sexual needs without being tarred a creep”, since women usually use the word “creep” toward men that are strangers, why would a man need to express his complete sexual needs to a woman in that case? And what sexual needs are we talking about? His desire toward a female as simple as him saying “hi” in attempt to better get to know her? Or a man’s desire to talk about all the kinky things he is into? What’s appropriate and what isn’t and how far should women be accommodating toward male sexual desire just because a man might want to express it toward her? I’m not sure I know the answers to these questions myself. Now I do agree with her point that men also fall to constructs of what society says is acceptable sexual desire, (her example of men being mocked for liking curvier women or dildos). I find something a little missing from downplaying men seeking sex online to something that is just a “friendly proposition over the internet”. Most women, at some point, have experienced a man that weren’t just making a “friendly proposition” but was rather crude, rude or just looking to get “his” sex with no thought of the other woman behind the screen. Not all male interactions about sex are done in respectful or even friendly light. The author naturally mentions porn. And what is ironic to me is I think that a lot of the issues she finds in how men are stereotyped and wrongly persecuted are things reflected in porn themselves. While we all know there is “feminist porn”, it’s no where the majority of the market. And a good chunk of the porn market that appeals to men does infact showcase masculinity in very narrow and often borderline hostile, if not completely hostile way that I think more men should be angry about. I totally am in agreement with her comments regarding men pressured to see sex as an accomplishment more then for mutual pleasure and that it does cause some carelessness and confusion about what sex means.
Taramere Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 (edited) I also agree with TAL about not letting it get to you, but it's something about that word that just makes you feel....I dunno, disgusting or something. When people are using words like slut or creep, often they're just giving you an insight into their own feelings of self-loathing. When I was in my teens and first started going to "discos" boys still asked girls to dance. It seems so archaic...like I'm a relic of the 1940s, but this was in the 1980s. I was taught by my mother (and also by the teen magazines I read) that even if you really didn't fancy the boy....even if he was the fattest, spottiest person you'd ever seen, or somebody you generally didn't like very much, you would never say "no" if he asked you to dance because that was a rude and unkind thing to do....provided it wasn't a smoochy dance, which it was acceptable to say no to. Otherwise, unless you were really exhausted or had hurt yourself or there was some other reason unconnected the boy that you really didn't want to dance, you said yes. If there was a valid reason for saying no, you might chat to him for a bit so that he wasn't in that awful situation where, with his friends all watching, he'd very clearly got a knockback. That whole "dance hall" setting isn't really applicable now. Even back then, it was on its way out. The expectation (where I live, at least, where the formal dating thing is less popular) is more that men and women will become friends first and then something else may or may not evolve from there. Which can mean sometimes people invest more time than is good for them psychologically in trying to build something more from a friendship with somebody who isn't romantically interested. So much simpler and faster to have that social scenario where people start with normal, spaced apart from eachother dancing, then closer touching dancing and then, if there's romantic interest rather than just friendship (or if it's time for a friendship to be upped to the next level), the close smoochy dancing that may involve kissing. Now, in a bid to establish themselves as potential sex partners, "alphamales" etc rather than potential friends from which something else may or may not arise, men are increasingly encouraged to approach women in a manner that a lot of women will find overly sexual too soon, or obnoxious and even hostile. Hence common use of the word "creepy". Edited November 19, 2011 by Taramere
counterman Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 I totally understand, Cracker Jack. No one wants to appear as a creep or make someone else uncomfortable. There was this girl I was introduced to as by my friend, since we attend the same class. After I introduced myself and she introduced herself, you should have seen the look on her face as I just spoke to her normally. I wasn't hitting on her and I wasn't even interested in that, and yet, she had that "this guy's a creep" look on her face; she looked as though she was harassed and, yet, I was just speaking normally. What can I do? Keep trying to talk to her? Screw that. So everytime after that when I saw her, I never said anything and she never acknowledged me as well. She probably wasn't attracted to me but I don't get how that mattered anyways. If a girl feels uncomfortable with a guy she isn't attracted to approaching her and labels him a "creep", then it's her own right to do that but that's a pretty snap judgement IMO. I guess it doesn't matter if you're most likely not going to see that guy again. There's far worse things that would meet what the general consensus call "creepy". I know I am a polite person and I know I'm not a creep. If a girl I approach is showing disinterest, then I'm moving on and I won't keep pressing or keep trying to make something happen. I don't care if she calls me a creep. I am aware that some girls are totally against cold approaches and would call most guys that approach them creeps, but it's no reflection on me. And a word is a word, even with it's negative connotations. I would be laughing too if a girl called me a creep and all I did was try to talk to her
dasein Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 That's because it basically is. Are you not hunters? The implication would then be that everything women do in dating/mating is based completely on nesting and maternal instincts. Human beings have big brains that counternand lots of hunter gatherer instinctual conditioning.
dasein Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 Actually, it's not. Actually it is. And women exaggerrate the creepy behavior of men.
dasein Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 Saturday Night live explained perfectly the difference in approach and being a creep or not a creep Yep. Love that video, gets me laughing every time. Creep BS Detector - Anything a man does in approaching women, where the acceptance of such behavior depends on "who" or "which man" is doing the approaching, can never be categorized as creepy or jerky.
dasein Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 If we are going to acknowledge the freedom someone should have in expressing their sexuality to whom ever *they* choose, then shouldn’t we acknowledge the freedom someone should have in turn responding to that form of expression? No, there's a difference between a straightforward, appropriate and respectful expression of sexual desire and an inaccurate characterization. Walking up to a strange woman and asking for sex directly would be inappropriate, because the sex act for most people presumes some degree of personal intimacy. Asking a woman for sex while out on a date would not be inappropriate. The appropriate responses to an appropriate approach would be "yes," "no," or some variant.
Beachgirl8 Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 Yep. Love that video, gets me laughing every time. Creep BS Detector - Anything a man does in approaching women, where the acceptance of such behavior depends on "who" or "which man" is doing the approaching, can never be categorized as creepy or jerky. That video is really funny, but really it is saying that attractive men can get away with "creepy" behavior because some women will let them. Not that the behavior itself ceases to be inappropriate. The reverse is true as well. Attractive women can get away with poor behavior because some men will let them, just because they are attractive.
Mrlonelyone Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 @beachgirl. The thing is the way what behavior is considered inappropriate is defined. Every legal definition of "harassment" includes the term "unwelcome" or "unwanted". Creepy behavior could be thought of as behavior that's not quite illegal harassment. So weather it is creepy or not depends on weather it is welcome or unwelcome. That's what the OP and others here are beefing about. Why should such a harsh judgement befall men who approach just to talk to a woman? There are women who like in that video will call the boss on the phone if the unattractive man even says hi in real life. @Dasein The only way a woman would think a man was a "creep" for wanting to have sex (on or after the third date) is if she was simply playing the guy. Sex and "relationship" are one of the points of dating grown ups know this.
Mrlonelyone Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 @beachgirl. The thing is the way what behavior is considered inappropriate is defined. Every legal definition of "harassment" includes the term "unwelcome" or "unwanted". Creepy behavior could be thought of as behavior that's not quite illegal harassment. So weather it is creepy or not depends on weather it is welcome or unwelcome. That's what the OP and others here are beefing about. Why should such a harsh judgement befall men who approach just to talk to a woman? There are women who like in that video will call the boss on the phone if the unattractive man even says hi in real life. @Dasein The only way a woman would think a man was a "creep" for wanting to have sex (on or after the third date) is if she was simply playing the guy. Sex and "relationship" are one of the points of dating grown ups know this.
dasein Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 but really it is saying that attractive men can get away with "creepy" behavior because some women will let them. Not that the behavior itself ceases to be inappropriate. No, IMO the video is saying that women aren't as ready to classify the actions of a handsome man as "creepy" in the first place. There is universally creepy behavior, sending someone a picture of a shrine made in someone's honor, cutting off an ear out of love, etc., but most all other behavior that women deem creepy is contextual. A naked man chasing a woman around the house may not be creepy behavior if they are BF/GF. A simple invitation to go out may be very creepy if delivered by a guy who popped out from under a car in a parking deck at night.
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