Men don’t deserve the word “creep”

[joystickd]

This is an article written by Clarisse Thorn. She is a feminist and some guys will be surprised. here is a link http://clarissethorn.com/blog/2011/01/02/men-dont-deserve-the-word-creep/

 

below is actual article

 

This is an article about men, but I’m going to begin by talking about women’s experiences. Many of us women go through our daily lives fending off unwanted male attention; most of us have worried about being attacked by men. So it’s completely understandable that we’re all on high alert for predatory expressions of male sexuality.

But, while certain situations and certain people deserve our disdain — like, say, the guy who once leered at me as I walked out of the public library and whispered, "I can smell your pussy" — most guys really don’t. The pressure put on men to be initiators, yet avoid seeming creepy or aggressive, leads to an unpleasant double bind. After all, the same gross cultural pressures that make women into objects force men into instigators; how many women do you know who proposed to their husbands?

So how can a man express his sexual needs without being tarred as a creep? After all, the point of promoting sex-positive attitudes is for everyone to be able to be open about their needs and desires, right?

When I was 23 years old, I was still coming to terms with my S&M orientation, and so I posted to an Internet message board about how "illicit" desire was messing up my life. Soon, I received an email from a guy in my area. He accurately guessed the cause of my anxieties: “If I had to guess as to your kinks, I’d guess that either you want some BDSM play, or you maybe want to add other partners into a relationship. How close am I?” He then offered to fulfill all my wicked, dirty lusts. In fairness, the guy actually referred to himself as creepy during our text-only conversation — but I still feel guilty that when I told the story to my friends, we all referred to him as "the creep."

I obviously had every right to turn down my Internet Lothario. Still, I shouldn’t have called him a creep; all he was doing was being overt and honest about his desires, and he did it in a polite — though straightforward — way. If he’d emailed me with "Hey bitch, you obviously want me to come over and dominate you," then that would have been impolite and unpleasant. But he emailed me a quick and amusing introduction, then asked what I wanted. After a few rounds of banter, I called a halt, and he respected that.

I think the word "creep" is too vague and prejudiced to mean anything anymore. But if I were willing to use the word, I’d say my Internet suitor was the opposite of a creep.

* * * Although I’ve become more aware of it recently, I think I’ve always had the sense that men are particularly vulnerable to the judgment of “creep." Over a year ago, I wrote a series of blog posts on the problems of masculinity, and in Part 3 I noted that — unlike men — "I can be explicit and overt about my sexuality without being viewed as a creep."

Of course, I could be labeled a slut, which could damage me quite badly. There’s a reason I do all my most explicit writing under a pseudonym. We feminists often say that men’s promiscuity is lauded while women’s is stigmatized, and one point of this argument is purely linguistic: "stud" is a complimentary word for a promiscuous man, while "slut" is a hurtful word for a promiscuous woman. Besides, our culture hates sex, no matter who’s doin’ it — even vanilla, consensual, heterosexual, private sex between cute white married adults is hard for some folks to acknowledge!

But in fact, men aren’t merely enabled to be promiscuous — they’re pressured to be getting laid all the time. This influences situations ranging from huge communities devoted entirely to teaching men how to pick up women, to tragically callous dismissal of the experiences of men who have been raped.

And while there’s immense cultural repression of all sexuality, there’s also a fair and growing amount of modern TV, movies and feminist energy that seek to enable female sluttitude in all its harmless, glorious forms. The stud vs. slut dichotomy is worth discussing, but it has one flaw: it entirely ignores the word "creep," whose function appears to be restricting male sexuality to a limited, contradictory set of behaviors.

Feminist blogger Thomas Millar writes, "The common understanding of male sexuality is a stereotype, an ultra-narrow group of desires and activities oriented around penis-in-vagina sex, anal intercourse and blowjobs; oriented around cissexual [i.e., non-trans] women partners having certain very narrow groups of physical characteristics.” Men are supposed to be insatiable only within those bounds. Men who step outside them — for example, heterosexual men who are attracted to curvier women, or who like being pegged with a dildo in the butt — are either mocked or viewed with anxious suspicion.

Worse, men who talk a lot about their sexuality, or who make any slightly unusual move (like sending a friendly proposition over the Internet), can run afoul of the pervasive tropes around male sexuality: that it’s inherently aggressive, toxic and unwanted.

Under these circumstances, mere semi-explicit conversations become fraught territory. A male, S&M-oriented friend of mine told me about a girl he once spoke to while volunteering at a large feminist organization. She started a conversation about how she was coming to terms with her queer identity; she no longer wanted to have sex with men, but with women. He said he could relate, and described his feelings about coming into his S&M identity. The next day, he got a call from the intern coordinator telling him to get back in the closet. "Turns out what I thought was discussing who I was, came across as hinting that she should participate," says my friend. "The thought never crossed my mind — she was, after all, telling me that she didn’t want to have sex with men. But the cultural constructs around the conversation intervened between what I was saying and what she was hearing."

As one masculinity thread commenter named Tim observes: "The only way for a guy to guarantee that he won’t be called ‘creepy’ is to suppress entirely his sexuality, just like a woman can escape being called a slut by suppressing hers."

Another commenter, Sam, notes that it’s often difficult for men to "realize that being sexually confident and assertive is not tied to politics," and that some men feel so much anxiety they hire experts to coach them through the terrifying process of merely asking a strange woman where to find Internet access.

Even worse, as commenter machina says: “Simply having sex with women is seen as exploitative.” As a woman, particularly one who identifies primarily as an S&M submissive, I’ve had to overcome this problem from the opposite direction. For example, I’ve fought down fears that I couldn’t be independent or feminist and still enjoy S&M, or that I couldn’t enjoy any sex outside a narrowly defined “committed relationship” without sacrificing my self-respect. The flip side of those examples is that many heterosexual male dominants worry that they can’t value women’s independence and enjoy S&M; that many men worry they can’t have sex outside a relationship while valuing a female partner’s self-respect.

These anti-male stereotypes have an incredibly broad effect, and not just among individuals. Calls to censor porn, for example, are influenced not only by extreme claims that porn access increases rape (it doesn’t) but by feelings that mainstream porn expresses an unacceptable form of male sexuality.

It’s certainly true that the kind of sex represented in mainstream porn isn’t for everybody, which is why there are lots of other kinds of porn out there (including feminist porn!). However, I’m reluctant to condemn any kind of consensual sex in itself, including consensual sex as represented in mainstream porn. Plus, as commenter iamcuriousblue explains, many condemnations of mainstream porn incorporate a "view of masculinity itself as inherently hostile and dangerous" and a tacit claim that male sexuality "needs to be kept on a short leash, where men’s viewing of violent or pornographic media is restricted, either through community pressure or state action, lest the dumb beast of a man get the wrong ideas."

If we’re worried about people learning the wrong things from mainstream porn, then we should be giving everyone unflinchingly detailed sex education so that everyone understands just how limited mainstream porn is. Men aren’t dumb beasts — no more than women are wilting flowers — and stereotypes are easily defeated by a complete picture of the world.

* * * I’ve got three suggestions for how we can all start taking down awful conceptions of male sexuality — and the word "creep" with them.

1) Sam summed it up best: "Accept male desire, and accept men’s word when they talk about it."

Like most people, men want sex, and that’s not a bad thing. Like everyone, men deserve to feel as though their sexuality is hot, awesome, delicious, valuable, and can be pleasurable for all parties in a consensual situation. Just as women shouldn’t have to feel exploited when they have consensual sex, men shouldn’t have to feel like they’re exploiting someone when they have consensual sex. Just as more and more space is being made for forthright discussion of female sexuality, more and more space should be made for forthright discussion of male sexuality.

Of course there are inappropriate ways for men to express their desire, just as there are inappropriate ways for women to express their desire. For example, it’s not okay for people of any sex to continue hitting on someone after that person has clearly asked them to stop. It’s not okay for people in a position of power, like employers or clients, to use their position to harass or sexually intimidate people under their authority.

But these situations are a far cry from creating more dialogue in appropriate places — like gender studies classes or blogs — about male sexuality. They’re also a far cry from giving men like my S&M friend the benefit of the doubt when they join conversations about desire.

2) "Male sexuality should be approached from the concept of pleasure rather than accomplishment," writes machina.

Men are under so much pressure to get busy all the time that even when they’re having sex, their own pleasure may be less central than meeting the stereotype of how dudes are supposed to get laid. For some men, the stereotypes do kinda represent their desires; for some, the stereotypes don’t work at all. A man who’s the top partner in anal sex with his girlfriend might be scoring big according to popular consensus … but if what he really craves is for her to peg him with a strap-on, then he’s not actually scoring at all. Even a guy who contentedly loves anal sex might have the chance at mind-blowing sexual paradise if he decided to risk something new, to think outside the box.

Linking sex to accomplishment rather than pleasure also leads to some men caring more about getting it done than their partners’ consent. It’s obvious that the "I can smell your pussy" guy, for example, was more concerned with making a show than having a mutually hot experience.

3) Which brings me to my last thought: Let’s all discourage sexuality that’s actually predatory or non-consensual.

Obviously, most people aren’t rapists, and as HughRistik says: "I don’t think an individual man deserves to feel that his sexuality is toxic merely because he is a man and other men have displayed their sexuality in toxic ways." But assault and harassment are real problems, causing real anxieties. (And not just for women. I’ve heard stories about how men’s boundaries are routinely ignored; one example is women who, while exploring naked fun with some happy gentleman, will initiate condomless sex without even asking if he’s cool with that.)

It’s incumbent upon all of us to discourage that kind of thing when we see or hear about it, no matter who it comes from. It’s also incumbent upon us to honor each others’ boundaries. But this is not a question of limiting or repressing male sexuality, and it shouldn’t be framed that way. It should be framed entirely as a question of consent, communication and respect.

[norajane]

I think the key is in point #3 at the end. Many women are harassed, starting at an early age. That can be frightening to a young girl, because you never know which guy is "merely" harassing you from the street and which guy will make that physical harassment.

 

So girls quickly learn to associate blatant sexual approaches with "creeps". It's not a stretch, then, to eventually look at any unwanted attention from men as creepy.

[dasein]

I think the key is in point #3 at the end. Many women are harassed, starting at an early age. That can be frightening to a young girl, because you never know which guy is "merely" harassing you from the street and which guy will make that physical harassment.

 

So girls quickly learn to associate blatant sexual approaches with "creeps". It's not a stretch, then, to eventually look at any unwanted attention from men as creepy.

 

That it's wrong to lay blame on someone for expressing their desires in a respectful way is the "key" point of the article, because the writer spent 95% of the article stating that.

 

You basically took the whole point the writer was trying to make and turned it upside down for the purposes of 1) shifting blame to men, and 2) justifying women being unaccountable for their actions.

 

OP, since you have wondered how the "back and forth" gets started here on LS, here it is.

[norajane]

I think it's important to point out there is a "source" for the connection between unwanted attention and creepy. That is the crux of the problem, and because it is ingrained and automatic, it is difficult to apply a rational perspective on it in the moment. There is no sinister intent to deny men's sexuality as a whole when girls use the word. It reflects how they feel, which is not always a logical or rational response to the perception of being harassed when it's happened your whole life.

 

I read the entire article, and I don't disagree with it, which is why I didn't have any comment otherwise.

[joystickd]

In a way being called a creep is punishing or shaming them for being straight forward and honest about their desires in a polite way because of the guy that just say hey let's f**k. I posted threads about honesty and I have had women assume I meant me going and say hey let's f**k. A big problem with dating is this issue and the fact that male sexuality is seen as predatory.

[PlumPrincess]

The other day I was out with a group of people and there was this guy I know. He's like in his fifties. He touched me all the time when we were talking - arm and knees - and at the end, when he left, he gave me a kiss on the cheek, not like the polite kisses in the air, but a fullblown kiss with his lips touching my cheeks. I was sitting with my back to him and he approached me from behind and kissed me. That's kind of creepy.

 

Or the guy from this online dating site who contacted me. He was mid-forties and looking for women who were virgins or had very few dating experiences like only one boyfriend. That's also creepy.

 

As far as I've seen, most women are way more tolerant than I'm with sh*tty behavior from men. But I got into so many nasty situations in my life that I've learned to trust my instincts and I so do not care what other people think.

[Imageiko]

tldr, but I will say I think there's a definite line on how you approach someone where even if it's unwanted you won't come off as a creep. There are tons of guys who rightly so come off creepy when they approach a girl.

[joystickd]

tldr, but I will say I think there's a definite line on how you approach someone where even if it's unwanted you won't come off as a creep. There are tons of guys who rightly so come off creepy when they approach a girl.

maybe when you have time you should read

[joystickd]

He was mid-forties and looking for women who were virgins or had very few dating experiences like only one boyfriend. That's also creepy.

 

So if a man approached you and made his desires known in a straight forward honest and polite way would he be creepy to you

[PlumPrincess]

In a way being called a creep is punishing or shaming them for being straight forward and honest about their desires in a polite way because of the guy that just say hey let's f**k. I posted threads about honesty and I have had women assume I meant me going and say hey let's f**k. A big problem with dating is this issue and the fact that male sexuality is seen as predatory.

Sorry, that's wrong. I don't get overly excited about a guy who is straighforward and tells me wants sex. I might very likely tell him to get lost and think he's a jerk, but that's all, it's not the same as calling him a creep.

[joystickd]

Sorry, that's wrong. I don't get overly excited about a guy who is straighforward and tells me wants sex. I might very likely tell him to get lost and think he's a jerk, but that's all, it's not the same as calling him a creep.

 

you don't but some do.

[Untouchable_Fire]

The author has a solid point, but nothing is going to change. It's really not that big of a deal anyway.

 

We all know that when she rejects your advances you will be considered a "creep". I'm Ok with that because I know it's pretty much meaningless. It's no more hurtful than someone calling me a jerk.

 

If you think about it rejecting someone is a mean thing to do on any level. Most women don't want to feel like they are mean in rejecting a guy that was polite and honest... So they label him a creep and then it's Ok. We all have our coping mechanisms.

[PlumPrincess]

Rejecting someone is not a mean thing to do and that's not the reason why I don't like doing it. I know that my rejection is going to hurt someone's feeling and I don't really like doing it, but still, I don't consider it to be mean. What the option anyway? I have a mailbox full with guys who wanted to go out with me. Should I accept each and everyone of them, just to be a nice girl?

[Untouchable_Fire]

Or the guy from this online dating site who contacted me. He was mid-forties and looking for women who were virgins or had very few dating experiences like only one boyfriend. That's also creepy.

 

Perhaps he wants someone with a similar dating history? He is being straightforward and honest.

 

You are making assumptions.

 

Sorry, that's wrong. I don't get overly excited about a guy who is straighforward and tells me wants sex. I might very likely tell him to get lost and think he's a jerk, but that's all, it's not the same as calling him a creep.

 

Don't these two statements seem really contradictory?

[PlumPrincess]

Perhaps he wants someone with a similar dating history? He is being straightforward and honest.

 

You are making assumptions.

Based on the questions you answer on this website, you get an analysis of your personality. He was way kinkier than other men his age.

 

Do you think I'm stupid and just label people creeps because I don't like the color of their hair? You can continue to find as much excuses as you want, it's not going to change the fact that the word "creep" has a good reason to exist.

 

Don't these two statements seem really contradictory?

No, it's because you don't seem to understand the difference between a jerk and a creep.

[joystickd]

No, it's because you don't seem to understand the difference between a jerk and a creep.

 

Well enlighten us because to men these two words get used interchangeably

[dasein]

Women rationalize using terms like "creep" because it's code with their GFs and others for "I am desirable" without also sounding conceited because it was "just a creep" and not a stud who found them desirable. Just a common type of female "self-stroke" at the expense of some poor dude who will be labelled most likely due to nothing he did wrong.

 

It's something akin to male locker room bragging about this "dog he banged." He's wants everyone to know he is getting laid regularly, but because she was a dog, the self-deprecation defuses the gloat somewhat. The difference is ask a man this and he will say "yeah got me" or maybe throw some food at you. Put the truth of it in a woman's face though and get ready for some world class song and dance.

 

"He has a picture of his dog up as his profile on FB... eww that's creepy, he keeps stalking my profile though, posted "happy birthday" on my wall just yesterday, what a jerk!" Note the sly "self stroke" inserted between the "creep calling."

 

They tell and retell stories of the "creep" that bothered them despite men displaying truly creepy behavior is rare. Those stories they repeat over and over are simply self-congratulatory fluff for GF chat fodder. I've sat and listened to dozens of such conversations among women.

 

Every woman may have a few legitimate creep stories out of literally hundreds or thousands of regular interactions with men, but due to female math, and especially due to infinite levels of repeating the "self-stroke" stories, they convince even themselves eventually that guys are creepier than we really are.

 

The woman who wrote the article OP links knows this full well, but also knows she would get harshed for telling the plain truth so she makes her point while sugar coating it a bit.

 

I have hardly ever seen men acting "creepy" my entire adult life, and have been around lots. When I have seen men act creepy, they tend to get their asses beat by other men.

 

Oh, and there is no difference whatsoever between "creep" and "jerk" in womanese, they both mean "man who I don't fancy." Whatever the "creep" does is interchangeably "jerky" and vice versa, No difference.

[Star Gazer]

A big problem with dating is this issue and the fact that male sexuality is seen as predatory.

 

That's because it basically is. Are you not hunters?

[Star Gazer]

Women rationalize using terms like "creep" because it's code with their GFs and others for "I am desirable" without also sounding conceited because it was "just a creep" and not a stud who found them desirable. Just a common type of female "self-stroke" at the expense of some poor dude who will be labelled most likely due to nothing he did wrong.

 

Actually, it's not. A creep is a predatory man who's out to get laid regardless of how desirable (or not) the woman is. Having a creep come on to you is not an ego-stroke at all; in fact, it's quite an insult.

[Mrlonelyone]

Oh, and there is no difference whatsoever between "creep" and "jerk" in womanese, they both mean "man who I don't fancy." Whatever the "creep" does is interchangeably "jerky" and vice versa, No difference.

 

^^This

 

A man a woman is attracted to can behave in the same way and not be insulted for it.

[Content]

Saturday Night live explained perfectly the difference in approach and being a creep or not a creep

 

[Cracker Jack]

Oh, and there is no difference whatsoever between "creep" and "jerk" in womanese, they both mean "man who I don't fancy." Whatever the "creep" does is interchangeably "jerky" and vice versa, No difference.

 

I completely agree with this and lonely's post.

[PlumPrincess]

Actually, when thinking closer about it, I differentiate between creepy, creep and jerk. The first guy who kissed me, was icky and sort of creepy. The second guy was a creep. Creeps are the guys you want to avoid at all costs, because you never know if it won't occur to him one day to lock you up in his basement. They are the stalkers, psychos, etc.

[ThsAmericanLife]

1) "Accept male desire, and accept men’s word when they talk about it."

2) "Male sexuality should be approached from the concept of pleasure rather than accomplishment,"

3) Let’s all discourage sexuality that’s actually predatory or non-consensual..

 

1) I'm happy to give anyone (man or woman) the benefit of the doubt.

2) Both men and women would do well to avoid viewing sex as a race to some finish line. The best lovers, IMHO, enjoy the 'journey'.

3) Of course.

 

In my entire life, I can only remember one situation that I thought was bizarre and bordered on 'creepy'.

 

It was shortly after my divorce and I was very raw emotionally. Really wanted nothing to do with men romantically at the time. Not mad about it. Just freaked out and wounded.

 

I'd just returned from a week long trip to CA to get my sailboat charter license (yes, I'm licensed to charter sailboats in the open ocean... yay!)... I'm all tanned... my hair is very light blonde from the sun and down to my waist. What's not to like, right? So, I walk into a shoe store to get my shoes fixed... and on my way out, an admittedly handsome man approaches me and confides that he works for the power company, he saw me up on the pole he was working on, and came down to ask me out.

 

My response was to smile, thank him... and immediately go home and cut all my hair off. Crew cut. At the time, it felt like I had a big stamp on my forehead.... 'PREY'. There was no way I could trust whatever vibe I was giving off at the time. The good news is that I started dating again about a year or so after that, met my fiancee, etc. So it was just a phase I was going through.

 

Where am I going with this story?? That any individual's response at any given time has as much to do with what is going on in their life as it does the other person's behavior. Man or woman.

 

I think we could all benefit from not taking each other's junk so personally.

[counterman]

I would say that some girls would think some guys are creeps... not because they do anything creepy, but girls that they have approached who weren't attracted to them, would just find them... creepy, even though they may be polite and a nice guy.

 

The funny thing is if a guy that a girl is attracted to approaches her and they go out and he ends up being a bit weird, or a jerk, he may be classified as less of a creep than say guys in my previous paragraph.

 

I agree with what Dasein says. And that video from Content is so true.