Disenchantedly Yours Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 What is the value difference? Why is one right and one wrong? Because it's normal to be attracted to others. Its what you decide to do with it that it comes down to, in my personal opinion. You are free to disagree.
xxoo Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 How does this disprove anything I said? I said and you qouted: How much more value younger women have then older women? How much in men's media focuses mostly on a narrow type of women. Maxim, Playboy, Music Videos, Football games with cheerleaders...young, slim, pretty, big breasts... Don't all these women seem to apply to exactly what I said? Come on, all those girls you mentioned are gorgeous. Young. Perfect Bodies. Big Breasts. Slim. Yes or no? I don't consider 30s to be particularly young in this context. And none of them have big breasts. Yes, they are all fit and beautiful. That's kind of the point, but they show that beauty is NOT just early 20s and big breasts. Because it's normal to be attracted to others. Its what you decide to do with it that it comes down to, in my personal opinion. You are free to disagree. It's normal to fantasize, too.
Disenchantedly Yours Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 Xxoo I don't consider 30s to be particularly young in this context. And none of them have big breasts. Yes, they are all fit and beautiful. That's kind of the point, but they show that beauty is NOT just early 20s and big breasts. Let me know if I got this right. Because I said that in male entertainment younger women are more valued the older, that most of the media focuses on a narrow type of woman (I.E fit, young, big breasts...which you agreed to in two out three) that these women some how disprove my previous comments? You proved my comments with those pictures XXOO. Visit Maxim.com. The women all fit into the same criteria. Fit, young, round perky breasts (yes some smaller and some bigger but still rather shaply all around.) In the real world women have many different body types and ages and if you went by something like Maxim, you wouldn't know it. Not to mention that they got the token African American girl or Asian and Indian girl thrown in and most of the women are white. I'm sorry. I fail to see what you think your proving because your just making my case for me. Oh by the way, this was a picture I found of one of the girls . I've seen her on that show New Girl myself. I think she has big breasts. http://www.viprumor.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/hannah-simone-001.jpg It's normal to fantasize, too. And it's normal to have standards within your relatoinship that each partner would like the other to think about. It's not totally out of the question to make a distiction between noticing someone is attractive objectively and wanting your partner to exercise some self control in the bonds of your relationship. Now I do agree it is also normal to fantasize. However, we have a culture that overly indulges in fantasy in my opinion. While I think fantasizing is healthy, the level at which fantasy is saturated in our culture really isn't. But it's totally normal for each couple to use some self control out of respect for their partner. Such as noticing the attractivness of someone but not taking a mental picture and focusing on that other person to the extent that you physically use them for personal gratification.
xxoo Posted November 20, 2011 Posted November 20, 2011 Let me know if I got this right. Because I said that in male entertainment younger women are more valued the older, that most of the media focuses on a narrow type of woman (I.E fit, young, big breasts...which you agreed to in two out three) that these women some how disprove my previous comments? You proved my comments with those pictures XXOO. Visit Maxim.com. The women all fit into the same criteria. Fit, young, round perky breasts (yes some smaller and some bigger but still rather shaply all around.) In the real world women have many different body types and ages and if you went by something like Maxim, you wouldn't know it. Not to mention that they got the token African American girl or Asian and Indian girl thrown in and most of the women are white. I'm sorry. I fail to see what you think your proving because your just making my case for me. Oh by the way, this was a picture I found of one of the girls . I've seen her on that show New Girl myself. I think she has big breasts. http://www.viprumor.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/hannah-simone-001.jpg :::faint::: she is so gorgeous! She may have large breasts, but I can't tell from the photos in the magazine. Look, I'm not champion of Maxim, lol. I don't love the "cookie-cutter" approach to beauty. But it simply isn't true that only young women, or only women with big breasts, are considered beautiful in Maxim or the media at large. Just this month, at random, the one featured woman is 35. That is a full-grown woman in my book. How do you know the shape of their breasts? They are wearing bras. My breasts look round and perky in the right bra, too! LOL! Men aren't stupid. They know that breasts look different out of a bra. Teenage boys might not know, but I didn't know much about the full rainbow of breast sizes and shapes at that age, either (and that was over 20 years ago, and not the fault of porn or maxim). And it's normal to have standards within your relatoinship that each partner would like the other to think about. It's not totally out of the question to make a distiction between noticing someone is attractive objectively and wanting your partner to exercise some self control in the bonds of your relationship. Now I do agree it is also normal to fantasize. However, we have a culture that overly indulges in fantasy in my opinion. While I think fantasizing is healthy, the level at which fantasy is saturated in our culture really isn't. But it's totally normal for each couple to use some self control out of respect for their partner. Such as noticing the attractivness of someone but not taking a mental picture and focusing on that other person to the extent that you physically use them for personal gratification. This is something for the couple to discuss. What you describe is ok for some, but not the only way, or the universal ideal. It would not be ideal for me. I am grateful that my partner doesn't ask me to police my sexual thoughts. On the contrary, he encourages me to think as dirty as possible
joystickd Posted November 20, 2011 Posted November 20, 2011 Let me know if I got this right. Because I said that in male entertainment younger women are more valued the older, that most of the media focuses on a narrow type of woman (I.E fit, young, big breasts...which you agreed to in two out three) that these women some how disprove my previous comments? You proved my comments with those pictures XXOO. Visit Maxim.com. The women all fit into the same criteria. Fit, young, round perky breasts (yes some smaller and some bigger but still rather shaply all around.) In the real world women have many different body types and ages and if you went by something like Maxim, you wouldn't know it. Not to mention that they got the token African American girl or Asian and Indian girl thrown in and most of the women are white. I'm sorry. I fail to see what you think your proving because your just making my case for me. Oh by the way, this was a picture I found of one of the girls . I've seen her on that show New Girl myself. I think she has big breasts. http://www.viprumor.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/hannah-simone-001.jpg And it's normal to have standards within your relatoinship that each partner would like the other to think about. It's not totally out of the question to make a distiction between noticing someone is attractive objectively and wanting your partner to exercise some self control in the bonds of your relationship. Now I do agree it is also normal to fantasize. However, we have a culture that overly indulges in fantasy in my opinion. While I think fantasizing is healthy, the level at which fantasy is saturated in our culture really isn't. But it's totally normal for each couple to use some self control out of respect for their partner. Such as noticing the attractivness of someone but not taking a mental picture and focusing on that other person to the extent that you physically use them for personal gratification. Use? You sound very insecure. Go to adultvideouniverse.com and you will see a variety of women. You can say its not mainstream because we live in the internet age where everything is mainstream. I bet you live in fear of some man having a mental pic of you. OMG! Don't look at me you might get pleasure.
Disenchantedly Yours Posted November 20, 2011 Posted November 20, 2011 xxoo :::faint::: she is so gorgeous! She may have large breasts, but I can't tell from the photos in the magazine. Look, I'm not champion of Maxim, lol. I don't love the "cookie-cutter" approach to beauty. But it simply isn't true that only young women, or only women with big breasts, are considered beautiful in Maxim or the media at large. Just this month, at random, the one featured woman is 35. That is a full-grown woman in my book. I've seen her in that show New Girl, she looks like she has big breasts to me. Clearly we disagree XXOO. On one hand, you say you are not a champion of Maxim and you don't love the "cookie-cutter" approach to beauty. Which indirectly insinuates that you understand that Maxim does infact have a "cookie-cutter" approach to beauty. How do you know the shape of their breasts? They are wearing bras. My breasts look round and perky in the right bra, too! LOL! We don't really need to know how their real breasts look if they are only projected a certain way through media. that's the issue. How women are projected through media to unrealistic standards. Men aren't stupid. They know that breasts look different out of a bra. Teenage boys might not know, but I didn't know much about the full rainbow of breast sizes and shapes at that age, either (and that was over 20 years ago, and not the fault of porn or maxim). Well I never said men were stupid. What I said is that media DOES infact influence the general public more then people care to admit to themselves. Companies don't spend billions of dollars on advertising because it doesn't work. People are easily influenced by the world we are sold through media. It's not rocket science. And the influence isn't just on men. Women do their own selves harm when they also buy into these products and distort their natural bodies to fit an image that is projected as 'healthy" and "proportional" when it is anything but. This is something for the couple to discuss. What you describe is ok for some, but not the only way, or the universal ideal. It would not be ideal for me. I am grateful that my partner doesn't ask me to police my sexual thoughts. On the contrary, he encourages me to think as dirty as possible ABSOLUTELY it is something for each couple to discuss. I never denied this. Yikes. Conduct your relationship in a manner that's best for *you*. That is fantastic. But don't act like that alone is a reason not to discuss social issues. Further, whenever topics of self control in sex come up, people all the sudden turn it into "policing", automatically insinuating something that isn't even true. I personally see a huge difference between someone practicing some self control out of respect for their partner (not really an unreasonable request) vs insinuation that it's all about being "policed".
Disenchantedly Yours Posted November 20, 2011 Posted November 20, 2011 Use? You sound very insecure. Go to adultvideouniverse.com and you will see a variety of women. You can say its not mainstream because we live in the internet age where everything is mainstream. I bet you live in fear of some man having a mental pic of you. OMG! Don't look at me you might get pleasure. The old "insecurity" card. Do you think your the first person to call someone insecure because they have different ideas about sex in this culture then you? It's the worst argument you could make because it's not grounded in anything logical or persuasive to your own point. All it is, is a personal attack meant to degrade me and my opinion and it shows your own mentality more then mine.
aj22one Posted November 20, 2011 Posted November 20, 2011 The old "insecurity" card. Do you think your the first person to call someone insecure because they have different ideas about sex in this culture then you? It's the worst argument you could make because it's not grounded in anything logical or persuasive to your own point. All it is, is a personal attack meant to degrade me and my opinion and it shows your own mentality more then mine. Everyone knows you're pretty much against porn and the like. What I don't get is, why does everyone insists on arguing the point with you ad nauseum? At the end of the day no one's right, no one's wrong, it's all just opinion. And we're allowed to have different opinions. Live and let live, I say.
joystickd Posted November 20, 2011 Posted November 20, 2011 (edited) The old "insecurity" card. Do you think your the first person to call someone insecure because they have different ideas about sex in this culture then you? It's the worst argument you could make because it's not grounded in anything logical or persuasive to your own point. All it is, is a personal attack meant to degrade me and my opinion and it shows your own mentality more then mine. No that was my genuine take on your stance on this. I have no problem with you disagreeing with me but you have the issue. I looked at the fact you in your argument target a specific group of women and this is after someone clearly showed there were a variety of ages. I would have never said it if you were not so specific in the demographic of women. Honestly on could safely assume you have an issue with 18 year old women. Currently now you feel threatened because I merely stated what I took from your opinions. It was not a personal attack meant to degrade you but you took it as such and that shows your mentality more than mine. The OMG don't look was a joke lol. You take looking and fantasizing too seriously. Whatever they do in their mind is not infringing on the rights of anyone else. Edited November 20, 2011 by joystickd
xxoo Posted November 20, 2011 Posted November 20, 2011 . Further, whenever topics of self control in sex come up, people all the sudden turn it into "policing", automatically insinuating something that isn't even true. I personally see a huge difference between someone practicing some self control out of respect for their partner (not really an unreasonable request) vs insinuation that it's all about being "policed". That is how if would feel to me to be in a relationship with someone who wanted me to practice self control in fantasy. Have you met many men who share your ideas with regard to this level of self control? It doesn't seem reasonable to expect a partner to refrain from thinking about sex with others. It seems like setting them up to fail, or to lie, or to feel bad about their normal thoughts. Everyone knows you're pretty much against porn and the like. What I don't get is, why does everyone insists on arguing the point with you ad nauseum? At the end of the day no one's right, no one's wrong, it's all just opinion. And we're allowed to have different opinions. Live and let live, I say. Opinions are one thing, and facts are another. I have no problem with differing opinions, as long as assumptions and opinions are not presented as facts.
Negative Nancy Posted November 20, 2011 Posted November 20, 2011 Whatever they do in their mind is not infringing on the rights of anyone else. Actually it can. let's stretch your example a little further to get the point across: a man that sits around at his job merely "fantasizing" and not getting the job done soon will find himself fired. a man that sits at home "fantasizing" and not doing the household tasks or taking care of the family is harming his family. and a man staring, lusting after and fantasizing about a woman on the street while his wife is next to him disconnects from his wife at this very moment - his attention is not with her.
xxoo Posted November 20, 2011 Posted November 20, 2011 Actually it can. let's stretch your example a little further to get the point across: a man that sits around at his job merely "fantasizing" and not getting the job done soon will find himself fired. a man that sits at home "fantasizing" and not doing the household tasks or taking care of the family is harming his family. and a man staring, lusting after and fantasizing about a woman on the street while his wife is next to him disconnects from his wife at this very moment - his attention is not with her. But you've stretched it to a point where it has no bearing on reality. In reality, a man can do his job competently AND think about sex periodically. The man with his wife can feel great pride having his sexy woman on his arm AND notice that his buddy's wife looks damn hot tonight, and spend a couple seconds trying to picture what kind of panties she is wearing.
joystickd Posted November 20, 2011 Posted November 20, 2011 Actually it can. let's stretch your example a little further to get the point across: a man that sits around at his job merely "fantasizing" and not getting the job done soon will find himself fired. a man that sits at home "fantasizing" and not doing the household tasks or taking care of the family is harming his family. and a man staring, lusting after and fantasizing about a woman on the street while his wife is next to him disconnects from his wife at this very moment - his attention is not with her. I should have clarified I meant the person being fantasized about.
Disenchantedly Yours Posted November 21, 2011 Posted November 21, 2011 joystickd No that was my genuine take on your stance on this. I have no problem with you disagreeing with me but you have the issue. Joystickd, I've been around the block on these parts and I've heard all the "you're just insecure/you have a problem" comments you can throw at me. Those kind of comments have nothing to do with the discussion. They also aren't based in anything factual that I've expressed. (Especially since I directly asked you to show me what point of my post pointed to insecurity and you completely ignored the logical question). They are just cheap shots people take because they like porn and they can't handle any intelligent discussion on it being negative. And ironically, that's a kind of insecurity on it's own. But do you know why I don't generally use that argument, not unless it's unfairly thrown at me? Because it's neither germaine to the topic and it's down right unfair for me to go in for thinly guised personal attacks in the name of an "intelligent discussion". I looked at the fact you in your argument target a specific group of women and this is after someone clearly showed there were a variety of ages. I'm sorry but are you denying that a good chunk of male media isn't specifically about young women? Now last time I checked, 30 wasn't exactly old. Now if a men's magazine includes a couple shots of a 30 year olds that proves men love variety in ages? Do tell me how so? That most porn doesn't infact consist of young women? That in male pro-sports, all the cheerleaders are pretty much under the age of 25 while the male pro-sports players can paly into their 40s? Can you honestly answer these questions? I would have never said it if you were not so specific in the demographic of women. Honestly on could safely assume you have an issue with 18 year old women. I have an issue with men buying into concepts of beauty about women through media peddled to men that actually very narrowly defines the ideasl of feminine beauty while asking women to not buy into the exact messages about beauty they are buying into and most likely masturbating to. Currently now you feel threatened because I merely stated what I took from your opinions. I don't feel threatened by you at all. You're arguments aren't anything I haven't seen before. They are rather unimpressive. You focus on personal character comments where my comments are specifically about the topic of women, beauty, male media and porn. It was not a personal attack meant to degrade you but you took it as such and that shows your mentality more than mine. The OMG don't look was a joke lol. You take looking and fantasizing too seriously. Whatever they do in their mind is not infringing on the rights of anyone else. It's funny but most people believe that healthy romantic relationships include a combination of the physical, the spiritual, the emotional and the mental. It's funny further that we have pride in people that use physical control and keep their bodies in shape and don't over eat. We have pride in people that follow their own spiritual committed path. We have pride in people that control their emotions and don't go bat sh*t crazy on everyone just because they feel like it. And when it comes to the mental, it's all the sudden a free for all. Well I disagree. All these components are important to a relationship. All these components need exercise. I don't expect a man to be perfect. I just want one that tries to live a balanced life in respect to himself and to me. Who believes in better himself and practicing patience and control within himself just as he would expect the same of me.
Disenchantedly Yours Posted November 21, 2011 Posted November 21, 2011 xxoo That is how if would feel to me to be in a relationship with someone who wanted me to practice self control in fantasy. As is your right. I never would argue what is right for *you* relationship. Have you met many men who share your ideas with regard to this level of self control? It doesn't seem reasonable to expect a partner to refrain from thinking about sex with others. It seems like setting them up to fail, or to lie, or to feel bad about their normal thoughts. See there you go again.."this level of self control". What level of self control? Expecting people to use some self control when it comes to sex is unreasonable? It doesn't seem reasonable to expect a partner to just eat a **** eating smile at every indulgence and fantasy a partner wants to have either. It seems like you are setting them up to fail, or to lie, or to feel bad about their normal thoughts. Our personal ideas on this subject work both ways XXOO. Opinions are one thing, and facts are another. I have no problem with differing opinions, as long as assumptions and opinions are not presented as facts. Most people have the beliefs they have because of a combination of opinions, life experience and facts. I bet we could both sit here all day long and post "facts" that support our personal beliefs.
Disenchantedly Yours Posted November 21, 2011 Posted November 21, 2011 Everyone knows you're pretty much against porn and the like. What I don't get is, why does everyone insists on arguing the point with you ad nauseum? At the end of the day no one's right, no one's wrong, it's all just opinion. And we're allowed to have different opinions. Live and let live, I say. No one can resist a good porn discussion! Hell if I can.
xxoo Posted November 21, 2011 Posted November 21, 2011 See there you go again.."this level of self control". What level of self control? Expecting people to use some self control when it comes to sex is unreasonable? Thoughts. Not sexual acts. It doesn't seem reasonable to expect a partner to just eat a **** eating smile at every indulgence and fantasy a partner wants to have either. It seems like you are setting them up to fail, or to lie, or to feel bad about their normal thoughts. Our personal ideas on this subject work both ways XXOO. Most people keep these passing fantasies to themselves. Sharing when mutually desired is great, but there is no need to know when a partner indulges in a fantasy. That in male pro-sports, all the cheerleaders are pretty much under the age of 25 while the male pro-sports players can paly into their 40s? Can you honestly answer these questions? . More "facts". NFL player: average age 27 NFL cheerleader: average age 25 It should be noted that NFL cheerleaders are required to hold a fulltime job elsewhere, and is a low paid pt job, possibly making it less desirable for older women.
fortyninethousand322 Posted November 21, 2011 Posted November 21, 2011 More "facts". NFL player: average age 27 NFL cheerleader: average age 25 It should be noted that NFL cheerleaders are required to hold a fulltime job elsewhere, and is a low paid pt job, possibly making it less desirable for older women. Heck, the average running back only lasts 3 years in the league, which means they're out by 25. Very few players last to 35, much less into their 40s. That's why the NFL is nicknamed, "Not For Long".
Disenchantedly Yours Posted November 21, 2011 Posted November 21, 2011 xxoo Thoughts. Not sexual acts. I'm well aware where you stand on this issue and I'm fine with it XXOO. Since the mental, phyiscal, emotional and sometimes spiritual make up a relationship, then it's reasonable to consider that each of these aspects are important to the health of the relationship as well. Most people keep these passing fantasies to themselves. Sharing when mutually desired is great, but there is no need to know when a partner indulges in a fantasy. Aww yes, the old "what I don't know doesn't hurt me". True to an extent but what it comes down to is a person's on code of conduct and what they feel is behaving with integrity or not. More "facts". NFL player: average age 27 NFL cheerleader: average age 25 It should be noted that NFL cheerleaders are required to hold a fulltime job elsewhere, and is a low paid pt job, possibly making it less desirable for older women. Yeah I got "facts" too. Keep in mind that I didn't say 40 year old footplayers where the majority. But it does happen, and it happens reasonably often: Such as with these qbs that all played into their 40s: George Blanda Warren Moon Doug Flutie Vinny Testeverde Brett Farve When have you ever, just once, seen a 40 year old cheerleader in professional sports? Lets not pretend that the reason there aren't 40 year old cheerleaders because its a low paid job and that's what keeps older women away from it. It's because it doesn't fit into the image that professional sports wants in young pretty cheerleaders.
Els Posted November 21, 2011 Posted November 21, 2011 Whoa, how is this thread still going when the mods closed down SD's? There wasn't even a flame war going there. Of course the media portrays unrealistic expectations and a narrow range of 'attractiveness' for women. They do so for everyone. Have you ever seen one of those 'Most Eligible Bachelor' contests, DY? They are pretty much Maxim for men.
xxoo Posted November 21, 2011 Posted November 21, 2011 When have you ever, just once, seen a 40 year old cheerleader in professional sports? . Laura Vikmanis 42 Also, Maxim is produced for young men (average age of reader is under 30). Of course the women in it are selected to be attractive to men that age. Still, 3 out of 4 featured this month were older than the average male reader. The facts just aren't as horrible for mature women as you make them out to be. Thank goodness
fortyninethousand322 Posted November 21, 2011 Posted November 21, 2011 Yeah I got "facts" too. Keep in mind that I didn't say 40 year old footplayers where the majority. But it does happen, and it happens reasonably often: Such as with these qbs that all played into their 40s: George Blanda Warren Moon Doug Flutie Vinny Testeverde Brett Farve No. It doesn't happen "reasonably often. You mentioned 5 players, all quarterbacks who happened to play into their 40s. All except Favre were backups in their last years in the league. On a 54 man roster only three positions can really physically play into their 40s: kickers, punters, and quarterbacks. All the other positions are just young men being chewed up and spit out for the for our entertainment. Don't get me wrong, I love the sport, but I'm not naive enough to believe that a young man can make a long term career of playing professional football. It's by far easier to be a 40 year old cheerleader than a 40 year old running back.
Disenchantedly Yours Posted November 25, 2011 Posted November 25, 2011 Laura Vikmanis 42 Also, Maxim is produced for young men (average age of reader is under 30). Of course the women in it are selected to be attractive to men that age. Still, 3 out of 4 featured this month were older than the average male reader. The facts just aren't as horrible for mature women as you make them out to be. Thank goodness Actually, the average reader of Maxim is somewhere between 18-40. Good for that cheerleader. I honestly didn't think there was one in the league. But lets be honest, one 40 year old cheerleader with a tan and fake boobs doesn't really disprove my point either XXOO. And you know that because you yourself said you weren't all together a fan of Maxim. It also doesn't match the number of 40+ year old men in the league. Here is a link for you: http://www.usatoday.com/life/movies/2011-04-21-movies-men-women-roles-speaking-sexy.htm
Recommended Posts