Steadfast Posted November 21, 2011 Posted November 21, 2011 Forgive me if this offends any of you, but I do think those can only see absolutes and extremes (such as black and white) have a very simple understanding of what it is to be human. And I don't mean simple as in uncomplicated. At some point, you may direct some thought towards the difference between knowledge and intelligence. Absolutes and extremes frighten many, yet insisting they do not exist doesn't seem to help the cause.
Author Mr_Confused Posted November 21, 2011 Author Posted November 21, 2011 Well......some lively debate. On the black and white thing...I don' view things that way when people are involved. If it were so simple we'd have a lot of therapist running the streets unemployed - how scary would that be? Froze asked what I will tell me daughter about the divorce? Answer - as little as possible. I'll hope for something along the lines of "Mom and dad don't love each other the way we should, we have tried for years, etc etc - but we think it is best to divorce. This has nothing to do with you, you are the love of our lives and we will always love and support you. " I'm sure it will be a series of conversations assuring her it is not her fault. Depending on her reaction, we will deal with side issues as appropriate. I intend to invite my wife to visit my therapist who is a "divorce coach" - we both need to learn about co-parenting successfully. I am hopeful we can avoid assessing blame. Look at this thread and the divide in opinions - the last thing I need is the child of this marriage being drug through the details we - as adults - can't make sense of. Expecting my wife to keep the marital home - do need to give some thought to how close I want to live. I could literally get something in the neighborhood if I wanted, but I think some degree of separation would be best for my wife and I. I've said all along, I don't blame my wife. I will also not accept blame. This is not a one sided sabotage of an otherwise healthy marriage, neither of us disputes this assessment. After countless months or worry, sleepless nights, therapy sessions, books, and internet articles and blogs - the best assessment I have is that we are two people with good intentions that have different wants and needs and lack the ability - together - to work through our issues in a way that sufficient to provide lasting happiness. I've danced around these problems for too long, ignored them even longer, its time to face them. The only way "out of this" is to go "through it". It's been put off for far far too long.
Kidd Posted November 21, 2011 Posted November 21, 2011 Statistically, you have a 3% chance of making it together. To me, it sounds like you're guaranteeing a destoyed family for that 3%. I'll also mention that I'm a male that believes you had no justification to have your affair. You had an obligation to fix your M or leave. I do blame you. And now you're going to be too lazy to fix it.
frozensprouts Posted November 21, 2011 Posted November 21, 2011 it's good that you say you want to present a unified front to your daughter... however... she is 14 years old, and probably pretty perceptive. She may already know much more about what is going on that you think. if you choose to continue the relationship with the "other woman" how are you going to explain to your daughter that you've been cheating o her mom? I know you think she won't find out, but what if she does? You may want to plan for that situation, as she will learn a lot from that about how people should be treated in a relationship. ( about seeing cheating as a shades of grey" situation...what would you tell your daughter should she, a few years from now, come to you crying and in pain because her boyfriend/husband/spouse has cheated on her... i sometimes think people don't really realize the full impact of their actions until they see them like that)
stillafool Posted November 21, 2011 Posted November 21, 2011 - my plan.....get through the holidays and start the divorce process early in 2012. I expect is to be awful and painful, but i think it's my only path to genuine happiness. I think me and my OW have a great chance, I really do, but if we fail - I know at this point I'd be happier alone. If you are planning on being with the OW after you leave when do you plan to tell your wife that you truly do have feelings for the OW. I hope you aren't going to blindside her with this information. I agree with Frozen that you are going to have to address your relationship with the OW with your daughter. She will eventually find out.
Author Mr_Confused Posted November 21, 2011 Author Posted November 21, 2011 (edited) I am leaving a broken marriage.....that i could not fix. I am leaving for me. I am not leaving for the ow. You are right....i should have left long ago. Lesson learned. I realize the odds of this eorking with the ow are low. I am optimistic but realistic enough to recognize all those before me felt the same and the overwhelming majority failed. I will be happier alone anyway. I will eventually find love..... i cant change what the last five years has done to my marriage i can only make sure i dont add five more to it. Blame me if you want. It takes two to make a marriage work but only one to make it end...i will not accept aole fault for it not working and it wld certainly continue indefinitely if i dont drive it disolving. That i understand. Judge me as you wish, good or bad, i cant live for the approval and satisfaction of others...i have done that as long as i can. Edited November 21, 2011 by Mr_Confused
woinlove Posted November 21, 2011 Posted November 21, 2011 I am leaving a broken marriage.....that i could not fix. I am leaving for me. I am not leaving for the ow. You are right....i should have left long ago. Lesson learned. I realize the odds of this eorking with the ow are low. I am optimistic but realistic enough to recognize all those before me felt the same and the overwhelming majority failed. I will be happier alone anyway. I will eventually find love..... i cant change what the last five years has done to my marriage i can only make sure i dont add five more to it. Blame me if you want. It takes two to make a marriage work but only one to make it end...i will not accept aole fault for it not working and it wld certainly continue indefinitely if i dont drive it disolving. That i understand. Judge me as you wish, good or bad, i cant live for the approval and satisfaction of others...i have done that as long as i can. I have a happy M so I gladly accept sole responsibility for any rough spots, as each rough spot is an opportunity to do better. My H feels the same. We don't bring deception into our M and in an open and honest environment, we have learned that if only one is behaving poorly, it really doesn't go anwhere. In other words, one behaving poorly and the other responding with love and kindness anyway, quickly turns into a non-issue or often turns into a positive experience for both (knowing you are behaving like a brat, and having your spouse still act kind and loving in return, tends to quickly draw out the loving feelings for both). The only issues we face are when we both are behaving poorly and I learn a lot more by taking responsibility for them, than for assigning any responsibility to my H. Having said all that, I'm not sure what positives you gain from feeling that you do not have sole responsibility, whether that is the case or not. Second marriages have a significantly higher rate of divorce than first marriages, perhaps because people didn't take enough time to focus on how they could have been a better partner and spent too much time focussing on how the ex could have been better.
sad puppy Posted November 21, 2011 Posted November 21, 2011 Mr. Confused - I met a MM approx 1.5 years ago. Through friends, we ended up going out together, having a great time, it was an instant connection, in all ways. He's been married for 16 years, and NO SEX for last 8 YEARS. So, you have company. He has stayed "for his kids", tried to be an understanding and patient husband, ... We knew we were in trouble, very quickly. We did see each other, rarely, over the next 14 months. Then, he began the "talk" with his wife. It continued over 3 months, to the point where they both agreed to divorce, that they "didn't have the necessary foundation to get married". Then, he told her about the affair and naturally, it has caused a lot of drama, confusion, pain, ... I will say, frankly, that turning your husband down for sex over 8 years does NOT qualify you to be so "hurt" and "pained" at this point. Go ahead, I completely expect people to come down on me for saying this. Doesn't matter. He asked her to go to MC last year and they did, for approx 9 months, nothing changed or as he put it "she has to prove that she values this marriage". Well, she did not. He moved out a couple of months ago, has been in IC, and has been going thru a roller coaster of emotions - ecstatic, then depressed, then solid, then depressed, as he's coping with the change in lifestyle, schedule with the kids, ... We have only seen each other twice, since he has moved out as he wants to work thru all the emotions, says he just isn't capable of giving to me fully at this point, which although hurtful, I am trying to understand. I am happy he's going thru IC, sounds like he likes the therapist, and I want him to be emotionally stable and secure. Do I know if we will make it? Nope, have no clue. It has been the most emotionally trying situation I have ever been in. We connected very well when we first met, and we have tried to limit our interactions since the beginning. It's been difficult all the way around. Sometimes, we actually do meet people where the circumstances are not the best, or someone is going thru a rough emotional point. It's called life. He has told me that I am the first person he has felt he has it all with - love, intimacy, intellectual stuff, spiritual, politics, travel, ... From the beginning, it has felt pretty easy and comfortable with each other. But, that doesn't mean we will make it to the other side. I am frustrated and impatient. We are now in a space where we are not speaking. I am going about my life, trying to learn my lessons from this, and trying not to have expectations. I think he's started divorce mediation but am not sure, he could've moved back in, for all I know. I know he is in pain for breaking apart his family. Hopefully, his therapist is helping him. Life happens. Some people change and grow from the person they used to be, 20 years ago. Goals & lifestyles change. His wife wasn't happy either. Some marriages last a lifetime and that is great. 50% do not. All of these situations teach lessons to all those involved. So, don't beat yourself up. You paid the price of 5 years of no intimacy with your wife. My MM went 8 years. I am pretty sure that this was not what either of you bargained for when you got married. People will judge you on this board, and they will do it harshly, just don't let it bother you. We all have one life to live, and it's pretty short at that. You gave your marriage a strong effort but now, you have decided that is not how you want to live the rest of your life, without intimacy and a strong relationship with a woman. I understand that. Yes, you should only get divorced because it is what you need to do, not because of the OW. She may or may not be in the picture later. But, we all have to assess our lives as we go on. We all have to strive for happiness and growth. You sound like you're taking care of your daughter. It will NOT be an epic tragedy if you get divorced. When my MM advised he was moving out, the 8 year old said "well, he's not around so much so it won't make much of a difference". No malice, just stating the facts, as kids do. (he does put in a lot of hours as an attorney). And now, he says his relationship with his son, is actually getting better. Weird, huh? Probably because it's more QUALITY time. So, you sound like you have thought this all thru. Now, onto your next step. You will have hard moments, but all growth and change is a challenge. I wish you the very best.
frozensprouts Posted November 21, 2011 Posted November 21, 2011 I am leaving a broken marriage.....that i could not fix. I am leaving for me. I am not leaving for the ow. You are right....i should have left long ago. Lesson learned. I realize the odds of this eorking with the ow are low. I am optimistic but realistic enough to recognize all those before me felt the same and the overwhelming majority failed. I will be happier alone anyway. I will eventually find love..... i cant change what the last five years has done to my marriage i can only make sure i dont add five more to it. Blame me if you want. It takes two to make a marriage work but only one to make it end...i will not accept aole fault for it not working and it wld certainly continue indefinitely if i dont drive it disolving. That i understand. Judge me as you wish, good or bad, i cant live for the approval and satisfaction of others...i have done that as long as i can. the point about your daughter's reaction to this and the fact that you are seeing someone else has nothing to do with why you are ending your marriage... it has more to do with her perception of it. How are you going to explain to her that you are already dating? You may find your daughter blames the "other woman" for the end of your marriage. Even if you think she isn't aware that your have bee cheating on her mom, she may very well be, or she will figure it out. If things do work out with your new lady, how will your daughter handle that? What if she blames her for everything? Is this fair to her? you've got a lot to figure out... is there any way you can put things on hold for a little while with the new lady until things settle down a bit for you and your daughter? It may be best for all involved, including her.
frozensprouts Posted November 21, 2011 Posted November 21, 2011 t will NOT be an epic tragedy if you get divorced. When my MM advised he was moving out, the 8 year old said "well, he's not around so much so it won't make much of a difference". No malice, just stating the facts, as kids do. (he does put in a lot of hours as an attorney). And now, he says his relationship with his son, is actually getting better. Weird, huh? Probably because it's more QUALITY time. that is so sad.... what kept him from spending "quality time" with his son before he decided to get a divorce? Why was he so much busier then? I don't understand this.
Author Mr_Confused Posted November 21, 2011 Author Posted November 21, 2011 I cant imagine a scenario where my daughter wld be introduced to my ow, or any other woman, within one to two years post divorce. I have no intentions of her meeting anyone. No way. She may hear about it and i will deal with that as needed. The only one who wld tell her wld be my wife and i seriously doubt she wld do that. Whats the point? Prove dad was wrong? The what....i can explain how i felt lonely, wanted to protect her, and made a bad decision to have an affair? This sounds like more than any loving parent wld drag their children through. My wife is an educated loving parent and certainly wld not do anything for personal gain or pride that wasnt in our daughter's best interest. Many of her friends parents have divorced. Many for some really tough reasons and they dont know, they are well adjusted kids, and i have gained some valuable insight into what parents have done tht either helped or hurt. Short version answer.....my daughter will have ZERO exposure to any woman in my life for the next few years.
sad puppy Posted November 21, 2011 Posted November 21, 2011 that is so sad.... what kept him from spending "quality time" with his son before he decided to get a divorce? Why was he so much busier then? I don't understand this. I think, due to "official times" that he gets to spend with the kids, now that they are separated, creates more focused, quality time. He's busy because he works long hours in his position, that will not change. And for kids meeting the "OW", I have no desire to meet his kids unless/until we were to agree to marriage. I do not see the point of that. All things in due time. Mr. Confused, at least you have a loving wife that is concerned about her child, above her own feelings. My MM's wife told her two kids that "daddy has a lady friend and that's why mommy is upset". That comment only serves her, not her children, in any way shape or form. That makes me really upset. Kids don't need that info, certainly at this stage of the game. Very selfish approach. I can't imagine any therapist encouraging that type of approach with kids. Just indicative of the rest of her selfish behavior. Very upsetting.
woinlove Posted November 21, 2011 Posted November 21, 2011 I think, due to "official times" that he gets to spend with the kids, now that they are separated, creates more focused, quality time. He's busy because he works long hours in his position, that will not change. And for kids meeting the "OW", I have no desire to meet his kids unless/until we were to agree to marriage. I do not see the point of that. All things in due time. Mr. Confused, at least you have a loving wife that is concerned about her child, above her own feelings. My MM's wife told her two kids that "daddy has a lady friend and that's why mommy is upset". That comment only serves her, not her children, in any way shape or form. That makes me really upset. Kids don't need that info, certainly at this stage of the game. Very selfish approach. I can't imagine any therapist encouraging that type of approach with kids. Just indicative of the rest of her selfish behavior. Very upsetting. I'm curious as to what part of that statement you find offensive? My parents separated when I was very young, and I remember meeting my father's first "lady friend" when I was 5. I was later to meet others. It didn't bother me. It was honest and made sense of things, as I could see there was something different between the two of them and my father didn't lie when he was spending time with a "lady friend", if I wanted to know where he was. Is it the fact that MM had a "lady friend" while he was still married? If so, does he see anything wrong with that? I feel it is better to own one's own life. If he decided to have a lady friend while married, he should own it. If he himself feels it is wrong, then he should stop doing it. Children are not stupid and if one feeds them lies, they are likely to find out. Better to give a simple honest explanation which is age appropriate, explains the situation and doesn't put the other parent down. I don't see it as putting down MM by simply saying he has a lady friend and the mother is upset. Did MM think it was a putdown? Why?
Author Mr_Confused Posted November 21, 2011 Author Posted November 21, 2011 I dnt think it is generally advised to indicate to a child that one parent 'hurt' the other. Rarely does divorce not hurt both parties. Couples rarely agree on history during a divorce, especially who is the cause. I just dont think it serves any purpose to involve a child in making such assessments. So.....in this case. Id think the child wld likely ask dad why he has a lady friend if it is making mom upset. How should dad answer that? Cause your mommy never loved me, because i am a selfish prick, cause your mom had a boy friend years ago and i never forgave her? I think an age appropriate response , given a child of this age does not understand 'adult relationahips' would be something along the lines of 'i am sad dad and i werent able to make this marriage work the way we both had hoped'. We are off topic. / thread jacking my post here but i cldnt help but respond.
SBC Posted November 21, 2011 Posted November 21, 2011 How is your OW handling all this? Have you taken a temp on her lately?
sad puppy Posted November 21, 2011 Posted November 21, 2011 I do believe that it is unnecessary info to give to kids, all they need to know is that mommy & daddy are having problems and it doesn't have anything to do with you, we still love you, ... Just indicative of a selfish approach, where daddy looks like the bad guy, and mommy is the saint. Similar to her approach of telling mutual friends "He had an affair, .... and now he's moved out". Leaving out the little tidbit of no sex for 8 years. Needless to say, their friends are stunned when they hear the whole story. It's a pattern of selfishness.
Toodamnpragmatic Posted November 21, 2011 Posted November 21, 2011 Probably 100+ posts fall into that category..... But since you asked, I think it is important for children to understand the difference between a healthy and an unhealthy relationship, sacrifices that should and shouldn't be made to keep the family together or pretend there is harmony and love. Frankly Mr_Confused, I hope your daughter grows up to be a well adjusted happy child and adult and learns what makes for a happy, harmonious, loving household and frankly does not get that from your wife, who thinks the most important thing is to appear to others as a perfect, successful family.
nofool4u Posted November 21, 2011 Posted November 21, 2011 Most of me wants to leave and find love elsewhere but fear cripples me from moving forward. Your fear of the unknown shouldn't be your wife's problem. You leave, roll the dice and take whatever comes your way. Unless your wife is perfectly fine being with a man that doesn't respect her and wants to keep screwing her over.
nofool4u Posted November 21, 2011 Posted November 21, 2011 I am leaving a broken marriage.....that i could not fix. I am leaving for me. . Ah, didn't read this soon enough. Very good, but you should be leaving to save your wife. But hey, whatever works. No matter what reason you give, your wife can move on with her life.
frozensprouts Posted November 22, 2011 Posted November 22, 2011 I do believe that it is unnecessary info to give to kids, all they need to know is that mommy & daddy are having problems and it doesn't have anything to do with you, we still love you, ... Just indicative of a selfish approach, where daddy looks like the bad guy, and mommy is the saint. Similar to her approach of telling mutual friends "He had an affair, .... and now he's moved out". Leaving out the little tidbit of no sex for 8 years. Needless to say, their friends are stunned when they hear the whole story. It's a pattern of selfishness. sorry mr. confused for another threadjack ( i do apologize) kids can be more perceptive than we give them credit for.... when my husband had an affair, he actually moved in with his new ladyfriend for a few weeks ( he was waffling:mad:). my kids wanted to know where dad was..i lied and told them he was away with the army ( he's a soldier), as i didn't ewant to run him down to them. the problem is that, since she lives very close to us ( an up the street neighbor) the ended up seeing that he was at her house, so they knew he was cheating, and that i had lied. i don't like that i lied to them... ( she didn't help matters either when i was out with my kids one day shopping and she came up to us and asked them how they'd like their daddy being away...how the heck could i cover THAT?) they also overheard things, even though we have always tried to never talk about his cheating within their hearing, but we haven't always been able to hide it they even heard about it from one of their friends, who's mom is a good friend of mine and who was talking about it with her husband ( explaining to him why my husband wasn't home and i couldn't reach him when i needed to) they came to the colclusion, even though i tried to keep it from happening, that "daddy hurt mommy", and though conseling has helped quite a bit with that, it hasn't totally negated that idea
Steadfast Posted November 22, 2011 Posted November 22, 2011 Short version answer.....my daughter will have ZERO exposure to any woman in my life for the next few years. Why? Didn't you say just a couple days ago that infidelity has no effect on the quality of parenting? Not only will you see your daughter far less than you did before, you can now toss deception into the recipe. Bon Appetit! The logic on this thread has become sick and twisted. Overwhelmingly sad.
Author Mr_Confused Posted November 22, 2011 Author Posted November 22, 2011 Steadfast - no need to get snippy.... I said - and will say it again - infidelity - or not - by default (by itself) does make you a bad or good parent. My point was not to lump a cheater, or faithful spouse, into one category or the other... I thought that was pretty straight forward. I will also say that introducing a new partner to the child of recently divorce parents is a bad idea....regardless of whether you were invovled with that person before or after the divorce finalized. You don't need to twist my words to make your point, you can have your opinion and I have mine.
Steadfast Posted November 22, 2011 Posted November 22, 2011 It's more than opinion Confused; it's the experience gained from two divorces and multiple children. You think I'm bashing you, but I have far, far better things to do. I do not post in malice. Are you hearing me? If I didn't have a very good idea to exactly where you're going, I wouldn't say I do. Open your eyes. There are those who pacify, and those who care enough to tell it the way it is. If you're as sharp as you claim to be, you'll let it sink in.
Author Mr_Confused Posted November 22, 2011 Author Posted November 22, 2011 Steadfast - try to read this with an open mind. I wondered what your axe to grind was. I read your story. 2 1/2 years old and your wounds seem deep. Deep enough you are on infidelity forums after this much time. I am sorry for what you have been through. I can't imagine the things you have deal with. Now, try to imagine, when you discovered you wife's affair. How emotionally distant and disconnected would you have to be to dismiss that affair? That was my wife's reaction. Imagine discussing it for 3 hours and never bringing it up again 4 months later, not once, yet continuing onward without touching, kissing, or any other form of intimacy. That's where my marriage is. I have been clear from the start, cheating is wrong - PERIOD. My only point in this response is to explain that not every marriage is impacted by an affair. Some marriages are long over in every way except legally. Some cheaters aren't cheating on a loved one, they are cheating because there is no love. I could have divorced long ago. My wife could have left me also. Neither of us have yet. Not doing so, over these years, has had consequences - some good some bad. My wife's indifference hasn't done much to make me feel particularly bad about being a full time dad, saving $, and my daughter having both parents at home rather than divorcing to fulfill my need for love/sex/intimacy. I've gotten a stronger emotional reaction from betrayed spouses on this board than my own spouse about my affair. Make of that what you will.....
Steadfast Posted November 22, 2011 Posted November 22, 2011 My wounds were deep Confused, but they have healed. It is possible. It is also possible to sidestep additional suffering by taking stock of one's life and throwing away the preconceived notion that you control the full outcome of your actions. You don't. Not in your personal circle and not to those who read and believe your words. My 'axe' is against the lie of subjectivity. It's poison. The truth...the black and white of the situation is, we can't talk our way out of wrongdoing. The words comfort, but only for a time. That said, I do thank you for your heartfelt reply and admire your ability to express yourself. If we allow it, each of us can become a positive influence and example. Know this; the truth of any situation is not valid because it is spoken, it's true because it is an accurate representation of fact. For me personally, enduring that was more difficult than I can express. Humility is the hardest lesson to learn.
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