sad puppy Posted November 20, 2011 Posted November 20, 2011 The "fog" is a BS description, people do fall into absolutely real love in affairs, I did. Bringing up the "fog" is a way for therapists or BS or sometimes the WS to essentially negate the possibility of real love, it's a term used as a crutch. I'm sure it does occur at times but does not apply to all affairs. The real fog occurring here is someone who has paid his dues, going sexless for 5 years all the while trying to live up to his end of the bargain by being a good provider, father, ... all the while trying to explain his desires to an in attentive wife. I don't understand why some people think a sexless marriage is a penalty to be paid for a lifetime cuz they took some vows many, many years ago. Seems to me the marriage contract was rewritten without the consent of one of the spouses. True, sex without the emotional component leaves one cold. I don't blame you for wanting a full relationship with a woman. Without sex, it's just friends or roommates, that's not what most folks bargain for when they get married. And for the spouse who's sex drive is kaput, it's tough to understand how they can feel so "betrayed" - what the heck?! You didn't marry a robot. So, Mr Confused, what's your next step here? What's the timeline to have the conversation where you reclaim your life? Do you think you'll get drama and pushback?
bentnotbroken Posted November 20, 2011 Posted November 20, 2011 The "fog" is a BS description, people do fall into absolutely real love in affairs, I did. Bringing up the "fog" is a way for therapists or BS or sometimes the WS to essentially negate the possibility of real love, it's a term used as a crutch. I'm sure it does occur at times but does not apply to all affairs. The real fog occurring here is someone who has paid his dues, going sexless for 5 years all the while trying to live up to his end of the bargain by being a good provider, father, ... all the while trying to explain his desires to an in attentive wife. I don't understand why some people think a sexless marriage is a penalty to be paid for a lifetime cuz they took some vows many, many years ago. Seems to me the marriage contract was rewritten without the consent of one of the spouses. True, sex without the emotional component leaves one cold. I don't blame you for wanting a full relationship with a woman. Without sex, it's just friends or roommates, that's not what most folks bargain for when they get married. And for the spouse who's sex drive is kaput, it's tough to understand how they can feel so "betrayed" - what the heck?! You didn't marry a robot. So, Mr Confused, what's your next step here? What's the timeline to have the conversation where you reclaim your life? Do you think you'll get drama and pushback? And here is the real bull crap. No one is negating real love. But foggy butt behavior happens in more than affairs.
Lemon Drop Posted November 20, 2011 Posted November 20, 2011 The question didn't ask if being faithful automatically makes you a good parent. That's a cop out and you know it. And, after reading your response, I think I represented your angle on the subject accurately. You disagree, but you have to, don't you? Therein lies my point. If one lays with the dogs, he can't be sensitive to being told he smells like one. And yeah, you're missing a lot but after reading your posts, it seems you are choosing to miss them. The wrongs are obvious...like trying to hide a basketball in your bed. Speaking of that, you've made yours. Deal with it. Yikes! Is everything really so black and white in the world you live in? There are not many options for him to have chosen..... he did tell her he was starving for love/affection/sex.. she said "tough *$it". He asked if they could attend counseling together and work on their problems... she said "tough $*it". He lived for FIVE YEARS without any sex/affection/intimacy... that was fine with her. Can you imagine? His daughter went from 5 years old to 10 years old WHILE THEY DIDN'T HAVE SEX. Remember college? It lasts 4 years... this is one year more than that. More than that, he did without the close intimacy he needs/requires. How many men do you know would wait 5 years before found it elsewhere? From reading his story you can tell he is conflicted about it and takes his vows/responsibilities seriously. His main concern is his daughter and her well being. In a perfect world, his marriage would be great and his daughter would be raised in an intact family.. but that is not the case and he is trying to do the next best thing, he is asking for advice on how to go forward given the facts now. Mr. C, I don't know what state you live in, but go with your lawyer's advice and file for divorce. Get a plan with your wife for sharing time with your daughter and sit down together and tell her what has happened and that your biggest concern is for her. Find a place to live for one year. Let your daughter help set up her new room there. Have mover's take the things you need from your home/homes to your new place. You are very lucky in that you have the funds to do this as you are no different than a woman who is being abused by her husband. A woman who is emotionally abused would not be getting the crap you are getting here, and people would be screaming "LEAVE HIM" even if she had to go to a shelter. In my opinion, living without love, affection, sex and intimacy is emotionally abusive when your partner will not agree to address is and is happy for you to go without having your basic needs met and refuses you. Because you waited 5 years, because you found a partner to love, because you are concerned about your daughter, because you are not a serial cheater, because you asked for MC, because you want to do the right thing, go forth and live in love and honesty. You seem to have a very healthy attitude and staying in your home and M seems like a life sentence. You've served your 5 years, that's enough.
Toodamnpragmatic Posted November 20, 2011 Posted November 20, 2011 Yes I have moved to the dark side. I now understand and do condone some affairs. Many I still am completely put off by and am vociferous in my disgust. But we live in shades of gray and this to me actually was a black and white situation. I am actually sad for Mr_Confused and did hope there was hope for his marriage if his wife agreed to BOTH MC and IC, but that does not seem to be the case. I can only wish him luck and hope he is not too scarred by the past 5-7 years.
Cabin Posted November 20, 2011 Posted November 20, 2011 I don't know what to do.... Most of me wants to leave and find love elsewhere but fear cripples me from moving forward. It's been months since my wife discovered the affair, we don't discuss it and it has not ended, we just continue to co-exist like amicable roommates. What would you do? If I were you, I would leave. It sounds like your W and you may be able to part amicably, given her understanding for why you had the A in the first place. If she was really interested in you in any way, she would be making efforts to reconnect sexually and emotionally with you. Since she is not doing that, I would have to guess that "it's just not there" for her anymore. Fear might be keeping her in the M too. Though I do think there's little to salvage in your M and be happy while doind so, I don't know that it means you should be with OW. Perhaps you needed out of your M, but not necessarily because OW is the right long term choice for you. I would try to assess that R separately, once you are single.
Steadfast Posted November 20, 2011 Posted November 20, 2011 I'm sorry if I'm not playing the game right, but it's difficult to just buy into this sexless marriage tale, the 'give and take' that resulted in your decision to have an affair and your desire to not have any of it questioned. Any advice given, gained or taken under those conditions is feeble, at best. As I expressed, gaping holes exist here; the biggest of which being your wife's pattern of sexual intimacy and/or her lack of interest in you. I'd feel better about advising with some insight on why she's chosen this path. Surely, this didn't exist when you married, did it? What (if you're able to venture a guess) do you think sparked the change? Often, spouses will withhold sex as a form of punishment. Desire -especially female desire for a man- is almost completely dependent on respect and admiration. Being divorced and looking back, I can clearly see 'watershed' moments, so I assume you can too. Seems to me this issue is at the forefront for you. Have you asked? Did she explain? Did she say that sex does not interest her? Or did she say her desire for you has left? Two very different things. It's a general observation, but a very large part of the motivation for 'staying beautiful' is to maintain sexual desirability. No small thing. Agree? Life is better and self esteem is stronger when you align yourself with right. What is right? IMO, it's doing what you say you'll do and respecting other people's person and property. That's basic, but it's a really good start.
stillafool Posted November 20, 2011 Posted November 20, 2011 What i do value is your opinion of how to resolve this issue. ....but if you could also offer thoughts on getting out of this mess, recognizong the issues i tried to summarize, it wld be much more valuable. I think most of us agree, like you, that divorce seems to be the best solution for you. I think you pretty much have it all figured out as to the best way of "getting out of this mess". Do you have a timeline as to when you will file?
Mme. Chaucer Posted November 20, 2011 Posted November 20, 2011 I don't understand what you are still doing in this thread. Didn't you have it all figured out about 3 pages ago? Get out of your mess? D I V O R C E. And next time, if you have a glaring problem LIKE NO SEX in a relationship you're in, maybe think about addressing the issue and / or leaving the relationship a lot sooner than FIVE YEARS into the problem. I mean, really. Five years. You broke down and cried five years ago - and then the issue just went off the table, and your marriage carried on happily. Except for you harbored this unbearable pain and emptiness due to your lack of sexual fulfillment. But your wife was just fine. I don't think so. Frankly, I am starting to have a lot of doubts about the veracity of any of this. It sounds like a creative writing exercise more than a real situation involving real human beings who are seeking a solution.
bentnotbroken Posted November 20, 2011 Posted November 20, 2011 Yes I have moved to the dark side. I now understand and do condone some affairs. Many I still am completely put off by and am vociferous in my disgust. But we live in shades of gray and this to me actually was a black and white situation. I am actually sad for Mr_Confused and did hope there was hope for his marriage if his wife agreed to BOTH MC and IC, but that does not seem to be the case. I can only wish him luck and hope he is not too scarred by the past 5-7 years. :confused:Speak for yourself. I don't live in shades of gray(and neither do a lot of other people)...by choice.
Toodamnpragmatic Posted November 20, 2011 Posted November 20, 2011 :confused:Speak for yourself. I don't live in shades of gray(and neither do a lot of other people)...by choice. Well that answers a lot and remind me never try and debate with you as there is no middle ground......
Breezy Trousers Posted November 20, 2011 Posted November 20, 2011 (edited) Responding, Mr. Confused -- Ooooh the fog . You know I believe in fog. One thing we never discussed is the duration of my affair - which is ~2years. So how long does fog last? I don't know. I don't know when the euphoria was high I governed myself - assuming it was fog - but it has never passed. How long is it fog, and when does it just become the way it is? Stealing intermittent moments together while juggling careers, kids and (for you) a spouse? I'd say two years of "married dating" is the equivalent of three or five months of "real life" dating, tops. Limerance/New Relationship Energy can go on indefinitely in affairs, unlike other relationships, due to the secrecy and isolated bubbles of stolen moments. Then there's the usual breaking-things-off/coming-back-together dynamic that pushes the "passion" even further in affairs. You won't find that in normal, open, healthy systems. In the end, it's not the length of the affair but the nature of affairs that gives a heightened sense of intimacy. Affairs are dangerous (risk of being found out, fears of abandonment heightening the need to be together). Sharing danger bonds people in uber-intense ways. It's why groups of soliders are so tight. It's why dating experts suggest you do something dangerous on a first day --- immediate perception of intimacy. Sometimes we genuinely mistake loving the intense feelings for loving the affair partner. Passion always comes out of pain. It doesn't make it love. At least you acknowledge this. That's half the battle. I do have to chuckle about the comment of my "damsel in distress". My OW is in no distress. She is a fully empowered, successful, women in charge. I'm not attracted to "distress". She is 6' of kick ass, she whips boys asses on a regular basis in the corporate world. Now, I may be infatuated with her confidence and self assured nature, but I am no knight in shining armor. She is my savior, not vice versa. I'm not high on the sense being her hero, she is mine. Good to hear. My fog, the way I see it, was living so long convincing myself that this is what a marriage is, a concession, compromise, settling, honoring commitment at the expense of self actualization and happiness. I adopted a different view years ago - it was a viewpoint that marriage is symbiotic relationship - it's give and take. It's not give and give. It's mutually beneficial. I'm not a servant to my wife, I am a servant and a beneficiary or her servitude. If there is no benefit there is no purpose. And this is spoken by a man deep in love fog, IMO. Your wife's behavior has been maddening and unfair, but your silence made you complicit, as Mme. Chaucer has already pointed out. You unwittingly created a false love (dishonesty) and contributed to a false peace in your marriage by putting up with it. Your feelings had to go somewhere. So they did. Here you are, two years into an affair. That makes me sad because I feel there may have been other, much kinder possibilities for you and your family. Life has forced me to look at infidelity from both angles very closely and, from what I've seen, affairs are usually delusional, addictive and sometimes even abusive systems. The bonding is really no different than traumatic bonding, IMO. They aren't normal systems. Despite my opinion, affairs continue to happen and always will. Sometimes they do force us to grow. So I've learned not to argue with reality. People are going to do what they feel they must do. In the end, you are entitled to your feelings and to live your life as you decide. I honor that, even if it makes me sad for your wife and daughter. However, just a friendly pointer based on my own learning -- Affairs exhibit very poor boundaries on the part of both parties. Poor boundaries don't magically go away even if you get married and live "happily ever after" .... Not exploring all avenues to address 5 years of no sex also demonstrates poor boundaries .... We all have to struggle with boundaries, so no blame there. Just pointing out the obvious. Maybe you'll want to explore the "boundary" issue more closely? Maybe not. If you don't, it will likely show up again in another form. We can only set boundaries when we are self aware. Lack of self awareness = crappy boundaries = lack of genuine intimacy with ourselves and others. Regarding her crossing her religious boundaries, that's not a source of validation of her feelings for me, it's a source of guilt and remorse that I am part of it. There is no pride in being part of what makes someone compromise their values. I am ashamed of that. You don't have the power to "make" anyone compromise their values. Yes, you may have seduced her in the beginning (though I'm assuming from your comments that there are no glaring power imbalances between you and OW at work). Regardless, in the end, OW decided having sex with you was more important than her God and her value system. She decided to cross those boundaries all by herself. You aren't that powerful to "make" her or anyone else do anything... If she's mature, I'm sure she owns this decision. Feigning remorse after willingly sleeping with a married man for two years would just be adding an unnecessary layer of hypocrisy to the mix. Edited November 20, 2011 by Breezy Trousers
Cabin Posted November 20, 2011 Posted November 20, 2011 :confused:Speak for yourself. I don't live in shades of gray(and neither do a lot of other people)...by choice. I have to side with toodamnpragmatic... we do live in shades of grey. Humanity is too layered, too complex, to circumstantial, too permeable, too transformable to ever be tethered to such simple constructs as anything either black or white. Forgive me if this offends any of you, but I do think those can only see absolutes and extremes (such as black and white) have a very simple understanding of what it is to be human. And I don't mean simple as in uncomplicated.
Toodamnpragmatic Posted November 20, 2011 Posted November 20, 2011 (edited) What a awesome post BT! Thumbs up and spot on! Surprise!!!! You agree with her, making it a great post. Are there valid points??? Yes and even though I disagree I can agree that there are a number of issues Mr_Confused has not fully addressed and in his 5 YEARS OF NO SEX he has been complicit in his silence. But I refuse to accept that his wife was blind and did not know what she did and happily twisted the proverbial knife all the while having the status, money, financial security and outward happy marriage that is all she cared for. We all have said he did not handle it well. Some of us however do not condemn his need for an intimate/loving relationship. Edited November 20, 2011 by Toodamnpragmatic
Toodamnpragmatic Posted November 20, 2011 Posted November 20, 2011 I don't question what you have asked or said in the past in this thread. I was simply commenting on you applauding BT's post as someone who has questioned Mr_Confused motives and this whole thread. Frankly what he decides to do going forward with the OW is his business. I maintain I do not blame him having an affair as his wife unilaterally decided sex was no longer part of their marriage, regardless of his pleas. She was only worried about status/money/financial/family & how others would perceive a divorce. Mr_Confused you have been very honest, thoughtful and forthcoming in your posts (and a better man then I would be faced the same situation). I truly hope you no longer answer a small group of women who refuse to accept the fact you chose or have had an affair.
OpenBook Posted November 20, 2011 Posted November 20, 2011 Mr. Confused, thank you for posting your story. IMO we don't get enough of the MM's perspective here, so this insight is extremely valuable, at least to this anonymous reader out here in cyberland. Thank you especially for this - So, here's the rub, and where I will certainly ruffle feathers. Two wrongs don't make a right - I'll just get that out of the way. However, in my bitterness about all of this crap I have been through I do feel she broke our vows. She refused, literally, to "love and cherish me". I chose to not "forsake all others". So how can I be more wrong. I'm not declaring to be right, but I'm not taking any blame either. and this - There is no going back for me. My affair may be love, it may be fog, we can call it whatever we want - but what it IS unquestionably to me is proof that there are kind, attractive, intelligent, and caring people with whom I can enjoy my time and that hold promise for something much better than what I have been through for the better part of a decade. Marriage is the hardest thing anyone will ever do, IMO. You're in a very difficult position now. If you believe in God (and even if you don't, what could it hurt?), I think now would be a great time to ask for His guidance. He loves you more than you could ever imagine, and believe it or not He wants you to find the happiness you seek, and more. Just ask Him. (BTW, I don't think it's a coincidence that your OW is a believer. Something is significant about that, although not sure what.) I'll pray for you as well. Sending good wishes/karma/whatever you want to call it your way!!
Author Mr_Confused Posted November 20, 2011 Author Posted November 20, 2011 Random responses to the vairety of posts: - my wife did see a doctor, she said she had no sex drive, they found nothing wrong. - I did tell my wife year ago I cannot and will not live my life with sex and intimacy. Make of that what you will. I did not tell her I was having and affair or request an open marriage - so for that you can fault me. I started my affair for physical satisfaction. Feelings developed and I did not curtail them. It was wonderful to be cared for and desired, and it still is. I cannot deny it, to be cared about, eve simple things like asking about my day, or how a business meeting I was worried about went - it is great. It's not about hot sex - it's about being loved - and yes, it is wonderful. - my plan.....get through the holidays and start the divorce process early in 2012. I expect is to be awful and painful, but i think it's my only path to genuine happiness. I think me and my OW have a great chance, I really do, but if we fail - I know at this point I'd be happier alone. Thanks again for so many posts, good or bad, in the end they only validated my go forward plan. People challenge if having an affair was right, I know it wasn't. It was a trade off, kept my married longer, my child has matured, I accumulated the financial resources to divorce without any of us making lifestyle changes, and despite my affair - thus day - nobody is terribly hurt - my wife included. So, regardless of everyone's opinion, it's my life, my marriage, my child, and I'm not left with a whole lot of regret given what other options existed. I'm scared as hell about the divorce and all that it entails, but I am excited about the opportunity to be happy. I am not looking for miracles, or blissful pie in the sky type of a relationship - I feel certain what I need can be obtained. I don't live my life looking backward, so forward I will march, and though a mountain of turmoil awaits me, I am optimistic about what I will find on the other side.
Author Mr_Confused Posted November 20, 2011 Author Posted November 20, 2011 Mr. Confused, thank you for posting your story. IMO we don't get enough of the MM's perspective here, so this insight is extremely valuable, at least to this anonymous reader out here in cyberland. Thank you especially for this - and this - Marriage is the hardest thing anyone will ever do, IMO. You're in a very difficult position now. If you believe in God (and even if you don't, what could it hurt?), I think now would be a great time to ask for His guidance. He loves you more than you could ever imagine, and believe it or not He wants you to find the happiness you seek, and more. Just ask Him. (BTW, I don't think it's a coincidence that your OW is a believer. Something is significant about that, although not sure what.) I'll pray for you as well. Sending good wishes/karma/whatever you want to call it your way!! You are kind. I am not a man of great faith spiritually, but I have prayed. Thank you!
Breezy Trousers Posted November 21, 2011 Posted November 21, 2011 (edited) To TooDamnPragmatic -- I don't question what you have asked or said in the past in this thread. I was simply commenting on you applauding BT's post as someone who has questioned Mr_Confused motives and this whole thread. And why not question his motives? Confused opened the door and invited us in. We were hardly trespassing .... He asked us for input. We provided our input. And why not question the invisible OW's motives here? She's the only one in this equation who stands to gain but NOT lose anything. Everyone in this family will lose. Confused may gain love (which remains to be seen in 5-10 years) but will lose his family in its present form and half of his wealth. His wife and daughter will lose much more, and I don't mean financially. Frankly what he decides to do going forward with the OW is his business. Of course. I maintain I do not blame him having an affair as his wife unilaterally decided sex was no longer part of their marriage, regardless of his pleas. She was only worried about status/money/financial/family & how others would perceive a divorce. I don't blame him for more than 50 percent of the marital problems but no one forced him to have an affair. I think he's said as much .... And you don't know what this woman's worries or perceptions are. You only know what a third party says her worries and perceptions are -- a third party who has been routinely deceiving her for two years. I don't hate Mr. Confused for this. We all become confused and do confused things -- hell, look at his name. He admits as much. I'm just spelling out the generic unflattering nature of affairs. Mr_Confused you have been very honest, thoughtful and forthcoming in your posts (and a better man then I would be faced the same situation). I truly hope you no longer answer a small group of women who refuse to accept the fact you chose or have had an affair. He has been a good sport, I agree. I do agree with LadyGray that you've got some issue, TooDamnPrag . This can't be reduced to gender. I know a lot of these people. Some have had affairs or flirted with affairs. You'd see the same group giving the same responses to a woman having an affair. Confused's affair is what it is. Who's arguing? I'm not against the affair but I am against any tendency toward self delusion that will end up causing unnecessary pain to people. We don't need to add to the confusion of the world. In the end, though, it's Confused's business. He may be one of the lucky ones. I'm not losing sleep over it. If he decides this conversation is over, his silence will indicate that. End of story. On to the next thread ... Edited November 21, 2011 by Breezy Trousers
Breezy Trousers Posted November 21, 2011 Posted November 21, 2011 Mr. Confused, it's a scary risk. I hope, in 5 to 10 years time, you can come back and tell everyone that it was a risk well worth taking. Sometimes it is. Best of luck to you.
frozensprouts Posted November 21, 2011 Posted November 21, 2011 mr.confused... i have read all your posts and i have to ask.... why don't you admit to yourself that you had an affair, developed feelings for your other woman and that is why you are asking for a divorce? the no sex issue is not really any different than any other justification for cheating...it is what it is are you planning on getting family counseling to help your daughter through this? are you going to continue seeing this other lady? what explaination will be given to your daughter about that situation?
bentnotbroken Posted November 21, 2011 Posted November 21, 2011 Well that answers a lot and remind me never try and debate with you as there is no middle ground...... :lmao::lmao:I don't have an issue with that. :lmao:
bentnotbroken Posted November 21, 2011 Posted November 21, 2011 I have to side with toodamnpragmatic... we do live in shades of grey. Humanity is too layered, too complex, to circumstantial, too permeable, too transformable to ever be tethered to such simple constructs as anything either black or white. Forgive me if this offends any of you, but I do think those can only see absolutes and extremes (such as black and white) have a very simple understanding of what it is to be human. And I don't mean simple as in uncomplicated. And those of us who see life as black and white might believe that those whose lives are layered are because you don't live in honesty and truth...hope that doesn't offend anyone.
bentnotbroken Posted November 21, 2011 Posted November 21, 2011 Simple minded translation = I think Cabin is saying that those that don't see things as she does are dumber than a box of rocks. :lmao: I'd rather be dumber than dirt than to cheat and be fine with it. :lmao:
Toodamnpragmatic Posted November 21, 2011 Posted November 21, 2011 (edited) I love women.... However as the only male it seems outside Mr_Confused posting on this thread I have offered a pretty clear male perspective, that the women posting do not like, even though I have said cheating is wrong and that Mr_Confused is in a lousy position. Heck I am all for trying to save the marriage as I've suggested MC & IC. Difference is I've taken him at his word for what he has posted and not looked to judge (or castigate) him as others have for having an affair or not coming clean and being honest with us on LS..... Geez I'm actually pissed that Mr-Confused (as the other male on this thread) has not come to my defense....:laugh: Edited November 21, 2011 by Toodamnpragmatic
Steadfast Posted November 21, 2011 Posted November 21, 2011 - my wife did see a doctor, she said she had no sex drive, they found nothing wrong. Thanks for answering...and I'm sorry. I actually have not heard much conversation about that condition, and would have to assume it is rare. Please do understand that many married men 'think' their wives have lost sexual desire, but the loss is directed only towards them. I lived in that camp and it is not a happy place to...ahem...pitch one's tent. So to speak. Her desire was actually quite high, as I discovered later. Another story... - my plan.....get through the holidays and start the divorce process early in 2012. I expect is to be awful and painful, but i think it's my only path to genuine happiness. I think me and my OW have a great chance, I really do, but if we fail - I know at this point I'd be happier alone. You could use the upcoming time to your advantage...but that healing / introspection might be hindered due to the overlapping of relationships. That is to say, we often make the same mistakes. In your case, it's the justification of your actions. And while what your wife did, towards you, in response to her condition certainly was not the fair and right thing, you did not help the cause by bringing another person into your life when you promised you wouldn't. Isn't that the test of devotion? Doesn't that test the validity and depth of our word? Fairness, even in the face of unfairness? And with that, I'll leave you to your decision, which -given all that's happened- is the right decision. You asked for advice. I have given it.
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