Mme. Chaucer Posted November 13, 2011 Posted November 13, 2011 Feminism, just like every other hate-filled ideology, will collapse leaving behind a trail of destruction. There are some "hate-filled" posts on this thread. Not a single one of them was made by a "feminist." Or a woman, for that matter.
dasein Posted November 13, 2011 Posted November 13, 2011 There are some "hate-filled" posts on this thread. Not a single one of them was made by a "feminist." Or a woman, for that matter. How does that conclusion, even if true, support the argument that feminism is not a hate filled doctrine? It doesn't. "Hate" is an overused word. Throughout history, doctrines of true hate begin with polarizing one group of people against another, and then inciting hateful action in one group against the other group. IMO, this is the very essence, and logical conclusion, of feminism. Create women as a "victim" class and then use that supposed victimhood to justify illegitimate political action. Do affirmative action, laws that protect women but not men, indoctrinating children into a "man bad woman good" ideology, etc., rise to hatred? It's a topic for discussion with several POVs possible. But the analysis never even gets to whether feminism is a hateful doctrine or not. Meaningful analysis and discussion stops at "well if you can't see the Emperor's clothes, then you are paranoid, delusional, etc." But those days of that kind of lazy diversion are drawing to a close... rapidly.
NXS Posted November 13, 2011 Posted November 13, 2011 There are some "hate-filled" posts on this thread. Not a single one of them was made by a "feminist." Or a woman, for that matter. I suppose you'll say these are 'factual' posts and that feminists really love men: That goes back to the presumption held by some -- like Woggle here -- that a relationship is primarily about the man, his wants, needs, problems and desires; but not about the couple. Certainly, the woman's wants, needs, problems and desires have no place in it. However, when a man describes "fun and easy to get along with" as a special requirement, that does, unfortunately, set off alarm bells precisely for the reasons that verhrzn listed: that women are expected (by some) solely to accommodate and amuse, and never do or say anything that may make a man feel uncomfortable, inadequate, less than a Lord of the Universe, etc., and it covers some of the things I mentioned in my own list. Given that it comes from Woggle, who is (I think most of us can agree), one of LS' resident misogynists, I think people here may be forgiven for a bit of knee-jerk reaction. Because you, Woggle, at least judging from your online behavior, are yourself a big drama queen. It doesn't matter what the reasons and justifications are -- if nothing else, you make the impression of someone who is (1) very emotional; and (2) has difficulty controlling those emotions, going to far as to project them on total strangers. So when you say that your ideal woman is one who -- let's cut to the chase here -- doesn't engage in "drama", it sounds an awful lot like you want a relationship that's 100% about you, your hangups, your problems, your feelings, your emotions. QUOTE] I remember reading this Arab proverb somewhere: "A man loves his son first, then his horse, then his wife." Well yeah, what do you want, musemaj11? A personal servant, nanny and sex slave who will wait on you hand and foot with no pay for 15 years and then leave with her toothbrush? There is no free lunch. If you have to give up "your" house, pay child support and also pay alimony -- that's the cost of having a wife who dedicates her life to being your personal servant and making sure that neither housework nor children ever become a nuisance to you, the cost of having a butler and nanny who is grossly underpaid. After all, you get a great deal in a marriage like that -- a butler, nanny and sex servant who works unlimited hours with no weekends, holidays or vacations, merely for room and board, far below market value. Next time a bitter man talks to you about how much child support he has to pay to his ex wife ask him whether he applied for sole custody. We understand by now that any woman who has her own needs is considered a 'militant feminist' by you. Many men seek out 'traditional' women so they don't have to be responsible for anything other than a paycheck... They kinda like treating women as pets. As long as they come home occasionally, and provide pet 'food', all should be A-OK with their wives. That arrangement seems to work for alot of people, which is great. Who am I to judge? The annoying part is when these same men come here and whine when the women they seek only want them for their money... or their women aren't ready with legs spread when they get home to do their wifely 'duty'. "Feminine" and "masculine" are very vague concepts. But when a traditionalist invokes them, I suppose then mean exactly what I said in my initial list -- the woman does her level best to pretend being stupid, incompetent and ignorant, but only up to the point where it would inconvenience her husband. That makes her "feminine". After thoroughly degrading herself in this manner, she goes ahead and takes care of things competently, because despite being "feminine", she's an "equal". Of course -- lots of men are controlling and prefer to have total power over the family's finances rather than not. Nothing surprising about that. In other words, when things don't work out for women, it's women's fault, and when things don't work out for men, it's also women's fault. Everything is women's fault. Nothing is ever men's fault. As for non-fiction, I'm sure having to hear about yet another serial rapist raping a woman sucks ass, but it's the simple truth that most sexual predators and most murderers are men. Sorry. If there are female sexual predators and female murderers, I am all for reporting on them, and I think the media does that with a great deal of fascination. But I don't think that something that's newsworthy and merits the public's attention -- such as, say, the presence of a serial rapist in the community -- should be swept under the rug just because you feel it offends your tender sensibilities as a man. Sorry. We can't all be your mommies and make life nice and warm for you. Many women do try though. It's wrong for you to try to appropriate this cultural phenomenon, which you obviously don't understand, to grind your sad man axe upon. Btw I'm still waiting for you to provide evidence that male posters here want to control women.
NXS Posted November 13, 2011 Posted November 13, 2011 Here's examples of misandry in the media: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryTYt9jl-4A&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bY4uoDV_pU&feature=player_embedded http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZAuqkqxk9A
Woggle Posted November 13, 2011 Posted November 13, 2011 Here's examples of misandry in the media: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryTYt9jl-4A&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bY4uoDV_pU&feature=player_embedded http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZAuqkqxk9A I support the general gist of feminism but if anybody wonder why it has become a dirty word they need to look at these videos.
dasein Posted November 13, 2011 Posted November 13, 2011 Here's examples of misandry in the media: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryTYt9jl-4A&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bY4uoDV_pU&feature=player_embedded http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZAuqkqxk9A "They" won't even watch watch these, hopefully lurkers and the silent will, especially the third link. Note that in each of the comments section, there are women who come in raging about turning the discussion back to "women's" issues. The comments in the first "penis cutting" vid are particularly telling and instructive in this respect, one poster shouting about how violent men are. As much shaming as they do, it's amazing that they lack any shame whatsoever in their intractableness and unwillingness to hear opposing POVs. Taking the spotlight away from feminists and "women's" issues for even a second is as grave an offense, and will get the same response as taking a favorite toy away from a spoiled child in a sandbox. For them there is no other world, no other reality, than a world where bad men victimize women. Decades of it, over and over, quite enough, time for airing out.
allina Posted November 13, 2011 Posted November 13, 2011 Here's examples of misandry in the media: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryTYt9jl-4A&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bY4uoDV_pU&feature=player_embedded http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZAuqkqxk9A The 1st link is outrageous, but those women are dumb, babbling c*nts so I'm not surprised. The 2nd link, ehh, whatever. I don't think it's problematic. The 3rd link is far reach, nearing on conspiracy theory but ok I get it.
Negative Nancy Posted November 13, 2011 Posted November 13, 2011 (edited) Feminism has its place but it went off-track when it fixated on the idea that women still to this day are the victim of men, thus creating a huge gender rift. Nowadays feminism seems to either mean that a) women are a caricature of themselves by giving it up as quick as possible and being "one of the men", or b) seeing the man as the enemy and the perpetrator and themselves as the poor victim which has created alot of resentment and animosity between the genders. Everybody's in it trying to "get theirs" or trying to get "revenge" for how they feel the other gender has wronged them. The political agenda behind that is more complicated than that, though, because sexism is a convenient tool for defining and guiding people’s lives in ways that limit their choices and freedoms ("divide and conquer" - women and men fight each other which distracts from other political issues, plus unhappy people are "better" consumers, etc.). So there's' only gonna be a chance for the gender relations and society as a whole when we realize we’re in this together. Edited November 13, 2011 by Negative Nancy
TheBigQuestion Posted November 13, 2011 Posted November 13, 2011 There is nothing that feminism espouses that is objectively true. It is a political movement like any other, and thus can and should be heavily scrutinized for consistency at all times. Obviously, the people who benefit from it the most will be the least likely to want to criticize it. It would be mature and respectable for someone to at least admit that in this thread. Equating the criticism of feminism to conspiracy theories is just a convenient way to sidestep answering difficult questions about feminism's doctrines. Dasein is 100% right when he says that for most of human history, 98%+ of people have been subjugated and discriminated against by the wealthiest 2%. Oppression is in many respects a matter of perspective. Who really had it worse? Women who couldn't vote, own land, or hold most jobs, or the men that were conscripted into battle while the women stayed behind? Who was more oppressed during the Industrial Revolution, where both men and women toiled in the most heinous and unsavory work conditions? Read A People's History of the United States (just as a starting point) and you'll see that everyone had it rough. You can emphasize any one perspective if your goal is to push a particular political agenda.
Taramere Posted November 13, 2011 Posted November 13, 2011 (edited) Here's examples of misandry in the media: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryTYt9jl-4A&feature=related I think we had a thread about that clip before. I was disgusted by the women in the clip, but it should be pointed out that this is a subject that men often joke about. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYq05-RAhyg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bY4uoDV_pU&feature=player_embedded Cynical use of a young baby. I suppose how you view an advert depends on whether you a) consider sexual offences to exist as a social problem b) Believe that people should be educated to view sexual violence as wrong. A counter argument could involve a video depicting a baby girl with a voice-over stating something along the lines of "she grew up to make a false rape allegation" and urging people to teach their daughters to take responsibility for their sexual behaviour. I think something like that would result in a lot of criticism...but I wonder how some of the men on this thread would view it? Whether they'd applaud such an advert or decry it as misogynistic? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZAuqkqxk9A If I saw something similar to this, but decrying misogyny (rather than misandry) in society, I'd be mortified. It's exactly that kind of victimhood-embracing, conspiracy theorising, obsessive approach I associate with the Millie Tantes of yesteryear. There's nothing wrong with a masculinist movement aimed at considering specific problems men are more likely than women to face, and helping them to confront those problems assertively, effectively and in a manner that's healthy both for them and for their relationships. So far, though, I don't see much evidence of a credible intellectual movement to raise awareness of men's rights and men's problems. Peer reviewed articles, and studies taking place in universities (where mechanisms are in place to promote objectivity and to aid research happening in the true spirit of investigation rather than being employed with the aim of proving a predetermined conclusion). What you see is more a ragbag of angry blogs and posts in comments sections that don't really tell you much beyond the personal issues of the person posting them. I think men who want their issues taken seriously need to petition academic institutions and peer reviewed publications to start addressing these issues. Then, perhaps, some adult dialogue can take place. However, getting into endless flame wars with the Twenty-first Century version of Angry Millie Tante with a penis isn't any more appealing than getting into it with the 1980s penis-less version was. ETA, just watched the very disturbing link posted by ptp in the watercooler section (re football coach abusing young boys in the showers). Sorry by mistake I posted the bee gees clip again. Here's the proper link http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/7229504/governor-tom-corbett-says-penn-state-nittany-lions-mike-mcqueary-failed-moral-obligation Where does the Men's Rights Movement stand with regard to something like this? Is this news coverage as misandrist? What should a young boy think if he is "mentored" (in the manner the Fourth Planet suggested) into absorbing this militant MRM theory which protests vociferously against the portrayal of men as sexual abusers? What if, at the same stage he is receiving this kind of Fourth Planet style "don't trust women...they're all bitches who are only good for one thing...stick with the boys, we'll look after your best interests" mentoring, his sports coach is abusing him? Is the MRM mentoring he's getting from somebody like Fourth Planet going to encourage him to speak up and get help...or might he feel that by talking to his mother (as some of the boys in that news story did) he will be betraying men generally? How about caring and getting angry about situations like that...where you've got helpless male victims of an abusive adult...where an entire, powerful institution supports and protects that adult, leaving a child feeling completely helpless and isolated? Rather than focusing endlessly on issues relating to adults dating, representation of men in television sitcoms and identification of gender by media agencies reporting sexual abuse? Edited November 13, 2011 by Taramere
dasein Posted November 13, 2011 Posted November 13, 2011 but it should be pointed out that this is a subject that men often joke about. Not sure about the "often." Teenage boys may joke about such often, but then they joke about screwing corpses too. I do remember a few men telling Bobbit jokes, same ones who tell jew and black jokes though. It's more accurate IMO to say that a leftist, feminist media gladly downplays women's crimes. There was an incident this year or last where a woman crushed her BF to death by sitting on him. The media hardy har har ensued, the woman got 3 years PROBATION for committing a homicide. I am unaware of any man in the U.S. getting only probation for crushing a GF to death or something equally barbarous. It should be pointed out though, that you will never ever ever see a singing group performing a "funny little ditty bout losing my clitty," describing ritual tribal female mutilation. What's the difference? Likewise men being kicked in the crotch. You never see women getting kicked in the cooch, wedgies or "titty twisters," that's no laughing matter, men though? Fair game. It's ingrained in our culture that it's OK to laugh at the suffering of a man, but not of a woman. No idea to what extent feminism caused this or not, but am pretty damn sure that constantly portraying men as evil abusers and victimizing women doesn't help. A counter argument could involve a video depicting a baby girl with a voice-over stating something along the lines of "she grew up to make a false rape allegation" and urging people to teach their daughters to take responsibility for their sexual behaviour. I think something like that would result in a lot of criticism. A "lot" of critcism? No idea how things are in your parts, but in the U.S., such would result in a tumult of death threats, bomb threats, actual gunplay, such that the station broadcasting it would need significant police or military protection. False rape accusations aren't even talked about in NEWSPAPERS here until they become so publicly known that they can no longer be ignored, or until defense lawyers force them into the media outlets. ..but I wonder how some of the men on this thread would view it? Whether they'd applaud such an advert or decry it as misogynistic? I'd decry it as too inflammatory and socially irresponsible to be broadcast out of public safety concerns, regardless of its truth. The row that kind of ad would cause in the U.S. would be immediate and drastic. Feminism is so entrenched in the U.S. that it's OK to offer opposing views here in backwater net land (I just looked over my shoulder for real LOL), but in mass media outlets? Untold mayhem would be the result. There's nothing wrong with a masculinist movement aimed at considering specific problems men are more likely than women to face, and helping them to confront those problems assertively, effectively and in a manner that's healthy both for them and for their relationships. IMO that would be just as bad as feminism. Polarizing doctrines, victimization politics, makes us ALL the victims of the real wrongdoers in the end. Those types want us pointing at each other and shouting while they sneak up from behind. I don't blame most feminists for being duped, the dupers are really good at it and men were just as duped. We are all in this together. So far, though, I don't see much evidence of a credible intellectual movement to raise awareness of men's rights and men's problems. Peer reviewed articles, and studies taking place in universities (where mechanisms are in place to promote objectivity and to aid research happening in the true spirit of investigation rather than being employed with the aim of proving a predetermined conclusion). No, you won't be seeing any "men's rights symposia" being held at Yale or Brown any time soon I'm afraid. Imagine that and wonder why? Your phrase, "mechanisms are in place to promote objectivity" made me pass wind. Thanks, was getting a bit bloaty. However, getting into endless flame wars with the Twenty-first Century version of Angry Millie Tante with a penis isn't any more appealing than getting into it with the 1980s penis-less version was. How do you know we aren't actually fomenting widescale dissent? Hearts and minds are won in the smallest venues.
Taramere Posted November 13, 2011 Posted November 13, 2011 Your phrase, "mechanisms are in place to promote objectivity" made me pass wind. Thanks, was getting a bit bloaty. I noticed that from some of your other posts. Glad to assist. Any thoughts on the issue I raised of young boys being sexually abused...and further betrayed by a culture of silence in some institutions? How would a credible MRM protect and promote their interests?
dasein Posted November 13, 2011 Posted November 13, 2011 How about caring and getting angry about situations like that...where you've got helpless male victims of an abusive adult...where an entire, powerful institution supports and protects that adult, leaving a child feeling completely helpless and isolated? Rather than focusing endlessly on issues relating to adults dating, representation of men in television sitcoms and identification of gender by media agencies reporting sexual abuse? Yeah, crime is bad. Pardon me for not putting on the sackcloth and ashes just yet though. That clip is a perfect example of subtle, institutionalized misandry. People, women and men, do bad things all across the country every day. A public figure, male or female, makes a juicy steak for the media, so admittedly the coverage is overdone and trumped up in those cases. But other than a Casey Anthony every now and then, when women commit crimes in the U.S., the soulful piano track is not brought out, the A team videographers and graphic designers aren't put to work, the mile long script is not written summarizing every detail of the vile man's behavior. The news media leaps on every opportunity to emphasize the atrocious actions of men and the helplessness of their victims. Why is this? Because the audience, poisoned by feminist lies about the bad nature of men for years, loves to have its preconceived notions confirmed over and over. In short, telling someone what they already believe is true sells more dog food than telling them that their preconceived notions may be mistaken. A fringe benefit for the marketers is that almost all advertising relies on fear elements to create a consumption response, fear of aging, of rejection, of not keeping up with the neighbors. Marketers have learned that general fear messages enhance and empower their specific messages. Make someone generally afraid, and they will by more makeup when you make them specifically afraid. The polarization fits so nicely right into the "preconceived notions" motif and into the "create fear" motif. We all suffer as a result. We have several television networks solely dedicated to portraying women as victims in this country. They repeat victimization messages to a female audience 24/7, mostly in the mode of made for tv movies. One begins to wonder how they actually have time to create all the fodder for such programming, but then the realization hits home, they have been creating it in papermill proportions with an equivalent stink since way back in the 80s, and 30 years of production can create an awful lot of hogwash. Why do those channels exist? Women respond to victimization messages by consuming more products, more consumption means advertisers pay more. It's a truly vicious cycle. Polarization snowballs, the con game continues.
NXS Posted November 13, 2011 Posted November 13, 2011 I think we had a thread about that clip before. I was disgusted by the women in the clip, but it should be pointed out that this is a subject that men often joke about. That’s not good enough, when Andy Grey made a sexist comment about a female referee he was publicly humiliated and sacked from Sky Sports. However there has been a media blackout on this disgusting show, presenters are supposed to be held to a higher account because of their influence on society. None of them have lost their jobs, no public humiliation just business as usual. Not a peep out of feminists either, surely they should be seeking the same standards regardless of gender and highlighting events like this. A counter argument could involve a video depicting a baby girl with a voice-over stating something along the lines of "she grew up to make a false rape allegation" and urging people to teach their daughters to take responsibility for their sexual behaviour. I think something like that would result in a lot of criticism...but I wonder how some of the men on this thread would view it? Whether they'd applaud such an advert or decry it as misogynistic? Well I guess you know there already was such an “ad” made. However comparing this reaction to a real ad shown on television is hardly comparable. Something like this will never be shown on television and there would be a huge outcry and rightly so. Cynically using children like this is vile. If I saw something similar to this, but decrying misogyny (rather than misandry) in society, I'd be mortified. It's exactly that kind of victimhood-embracing, conspiracy theorising, obsessive approach I associate with the Millie Tantes of yesteryear. I don’t see any victimhood in the video, how does pointing out how men are portrayed in the media equate to victimhood? When I first saw the video months ago it was an eye-opener, something that I’d never really thought about before and it was a way of seeing through propaganda. However if you think disseminating propaganda equates to victimhood I really don’t know what to say. Furthermore it’s not a conspiracy theory when examples are shown to back up the premise, which the video-maker has done repeatedly. So far, though, I don't see much evidence of a credible intellectual movement to raise awareness of men's rights and men's problems. Peer reviewed articles, and studies taking place in universities (where mechanisms are in place to promote objectivity and to aid research happening in the true spirit of investigation rather than being employed with the aim of proving a predetermined conclusion). What you see is more a ragbag of angry blogs and posts in comments sections that don't really tell you much beyond the personal issues of the person posting them. That’s never going to happen, feminism is a well funded machine that has infiltrated all levels of politics, media and academia. Any criticism of feminism is never going to get beyond “a ragbag of angry blogs” as you put it. Disseminating lies and educating young men takes a lot of unrewarded hours, hardly a match against the big money poured into feminist institutions and access to social engineering via government programmes, the judiciary, academia and the media. Here’s one such “angry blogger” trying to highlight the misandry in his college: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4UwFOgfeZY
thatone Posted November 13, 2011 Posted November 13, 2011 I fully agree with you that consumer culture has ruined America but I honestly do not believe this can be blamed on feminism. I am proud to say that mom and pops still own about 90% of my town. it has nothing to do with feminism, i agree. i wasn't trying to relate the two, just quoting and going off on a bit of a tangent. i don't think the solution to that is to not have any desire for material things, that's the other extreme and the tone i got from his post. the solution is just to not buy imported junk. i've noticed that on a couple of trips to new england, you guys don't have it as bad off as us. the south is mostly tasteless and has completely succumbed to suburbia, outside of a few cities.
Taramere Posted November 13, 2011 Posted November 13, 2011 Yeah, crime is bad. Pardon me for not putting on the sackcloth and ashes just yet though. That clip is a perfect example of subtle, institutionalized misandry. People, women and men, do bad things all across the country every day. A public figure, male or female, makes a juicy steak for the media, so admittedly the coverage is overdone and trumped up in those cases. This story was about a cover up re boys being sexually abused. The clip shows several men discussing the matter...including a psychologist discussing the long term impact of such abuse, and sportsmen who were abused themselves reflecting on the personal impact on them. Is it possible that there are many men out there who don't perceive things in quite the way that you do,and would therefore not feel that the MRM, as it's being promoted in this thread, is relevant to their experiences? That for many men, sexual offending is in fact a serious problem that affects male and female victims alike? That for some, as with the hockey player who was interviewed, leaves them seriously contemplating suicide? That those men in the clip you deride as misandrist, discussing an issue you perceive as overblown, have not been brainwashed by "feminisation" but are in fact speaking up about an issue they feel a strong sense of anger and activism about?
dasein Posted November 14, 2011 Posted November 14, 2011 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4UwFOgfeZY I don't pray, but every night when I go to bed, just before drifing off to sleep, I do utter one bit of praise, "Thank you, Al Gore, for creating the internet."
Woggle Posted November 14, 2011 Posted November 14, 2011 it has nothing to do with feminism, i agree. i wasn't trying to relate the two, just quoting and going off on a bit of a tangent. i don't think the solution to that is to not have any desire for material things, that's the other extreme and the tone i got from his post. the solution is just to not buy imported junk. i've noticed that on a couple of trips to new england, you guys don't have it as bad off as us. the south is mostly tasteless and has completely succumbed to suburbia, outside of a few cities. The Jersey Shore area especially is filled with family own businesses that have been here for years. It is part of what people come down here for. Why go to Dominoes when I can get Marucca's pizza which is ten times better and was once voted the best pizza in NJ. There is a Dunkin Donuts and a Subway on the boardwalk and that is it as far as major chains go.
dasein Posted November 14, 2011 Posted November 14, 2011 Is it possible that there are many men out there who don't perceive things in quite the way that you do,and would therefore not feel that the MRM, as it's being promoted in this thread, is relevant to their experiences? It's not only possible, I'm absolutely sure there are. You can see it in certain male members of this forum. It is aptly called "the white knight syndrome." You see, men figured out one of the easiest ways to get laid back in the 60s, listen to, sympathize with and agree with feminist BS, no matter how absurd or ridiculously false. If the intent is not the crass pursuit of p-ssy, there are other motivations for men to listen to such twaddle for 30 years, just wanting peace and quiet for one. I am sure there was a pack of emasculated manginas making those offensive t-shirts right alongside the harpies down there at Ole Miss panting for a piece of stringy, hairy feminist leg as a reward. We men can be so weak sometimes, a fact feminists have exploited mercilessly. But there are limits to our weakness, and our patience. That limit has been passed. The party is over and the internet sounded "last call." That for many men, sexual offending is in fact a serious problem that affects male and female victims alike? That for some, as with the hockey player who was interviewed, leaves them seriously contemplating suicide? That those men in the clip you deride as misandrist, discussing an issue you perceive as overblown, have not been brainwashed by "feminisation" but are in fact speaking up about an issue they feel a strong sense of anger and activism about? Crime happens. Crime is bad. Sexual offenses are a serious problem, no argument at all. I don't deride the men in the video as misandrist, nice try. The media machine that produces the circus is where the misandry lies, the constant reinforced shout that "men are bad," "men do bad things." Who knows what the BeeGees thought? they had signed a contract and were given a script. In all likelihood, some smug leftist writer wrote that song, the band most likely didn't. In retrospect, they didn't look all that gleeful singing it, did they?
NXS Posted November 14, 2011 Posted November 14, 2011 This story was about a cover up re boys being sexually abused. The clip shows several men discussing the matter...including a psychologist discussing the long term impact of such abuse, and sportsmen who were abused themselves reflecting on the personal impact on them. Is it possible that there are many men out there who don't perceive things in quite the way that you do,and would therefore not feel that the MRM, as it's being promoted in this thread, is relevant to their experiences? That for many men, sexual offending is in fact a serious problem that affects male and female victims alike? That for some, as with the hockey player who was interviewed, leaves them seriously contemplating suicide? That those men in the clip you deride as misandrist, discussing an issue you perceive as overblown, have not been brainwashed by "feminisation" but are in fact speaking up about an issue they feel a strong sense of anger and activism about? I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here or how it relates to men's rights. Are you suggesting that the MRM are trying to cover up stories of male abusers? Or that boys who are victims of such vile crimes are ignored? I've come across plenty of statistics on men's sites highlighting male rape/child sexual abuse in institutions by both male and female perpetrators and how it is mostly ignored in a sea of feminist victimisation. That males can be sexual abusers is nothing new, however this is how female abusers are portrayed in the media: http://search.avg.com/dns_err.aspx?i=23&l=en&tp=dns&q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.huffingtonpost.com%2F2011%2F05%2F12%2Ftexas-10-hottest-female-sex-offenders_n_861331.html&iy=&ychte=us&al=us&alu=ww&d=4b06f8a5
Taramere Posted November 14, 2011 Posted November 14, 2011 (edited) I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here or how it relates to men's rights. Are you suggesting that the MRM are trying to cover up stories of male abusers? Or that boys who are victims of such vile crimes are ignored? From what I've seen of the MRM arguments so far, I certainly wouldn't find that inconceivable. The MRM arguments I've seen on here expend a lot of energy on arguing that women who report being the victims of sexual offenders are just making it up. I don't think it's a great leap to imagine those same accusations being extended to children who report sexual abuse. Dasein's response of the story being "overblown" is pretty much what I'd expect. I worked very briefly on an anonymous helpline that kids could call. We were bombarded with obscene and vexatious calls which seemed to be connected with criticism of the helpline's advertising campaign by an organisation called Families Need Fathers. (ETA clarifying there, because I wouldn't want to imply that people who are members of that organisation would make such calls...but certainly the calls we received expressed a distilled and abusive form of the outrage that FNF was calling for) Trying to reason with those callers that we needed to free up the lines as children could be trying to get through cut no ice. Those guys didn't give a f*ck about children who were trying to get through. All they cared about was their sorry selves. I've come across plenty of statistics on men's sites highlighting male rape/child sexual abuse in institutions by both male and female perpetrators and how it is mostly ignored in a sea of feminist victimisation. That males can be sexual abusers is nothing new, however this is how female abusers are portrayed in the media: http://search.avg.com/dns_err.aspx?i=23&l=en&tp=dns&q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.huffingtonpost.com%2F2011%2F05%2F12%2Ftexas-10-hottest-female-sex-offenders_n_861331.html&iy=&ychte=us&al=us&alu=ww&d=4b06f8a5 The link is broken. I can see from the url something about "10 hottest female sex offenders". What I found, googling that term, was http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/greenslade/2011/may/16/us-press-publishing-sex-offenders-register It seems that article caused a storm and had to be removed...with an apology following. That such a furore followed by an editorial apology shoudl ensue suggests to me that such articles aren't in fact everyday fodder. Anyway. That's me done for the night. If this really is going to become a waterhole for the MRM then I'll just leave you guys to it. I've done more than my stint of dealing with that crazy ****. Edited November 14, 2011 by Taramere
dasein Posted November 14, 2011 Posted November 14, 2011 expend a lot of energy on arguing that women who report being the victims of sexual offenders are just making it up. No, the energy is spent in attempts to have false rape accusation accepted as the legitimate issue it is rather than a departure point for self-serving claims of insensitivity towards rape victims that it inevitably entails. It's exactly the same thing you are doing with the Sandusky clip, trying to deflect from any discussion of the actual issue of misandry in media. I don't think it's a great leap to imagine those same accusations being extended to children who report sexual abuse. Dasein's response of the story being "overblown" is pretty much what I'd expect. I worked very briefly on an anonymous helpline that kids could call. We were bombarded with obscene and vexatious calls from an organisation called Families Need Fathers. The subject matter of the story is not overblown, the media treatment is. Much as I'd expect, when faced with a legitimate issue that affects men, the typical feminist response is to attempt to turn the discussion back to an "acceptable" women's issue, in this case child abuse... at the hands of men (of course). Then, as expected, you want to lay an insensitivity guilt trip for my refusal to comply and consider the single instance you want to talk about in a vacuum, as opposed to talking about the greater actual trend consisting of hundreds and thousands of instances of institutionalized misandry foisted on us daily in the media. We are used to this tactic, it's old hat. Doesn't work any more. Learn a new trick, say discussing the actual issue being discussed in a straightforward manner for example. Trying to reason with those callers that we needed to free up the lines as children could be trying to get hrough cut no ice. Those guys didn't give a f*ck about children who were trying to get through. All they cared about was their sorry selves. The attempt to compare the reasoned opinions presented here with nutty helpline callers is transparent and fails. If this really is going to become a waterhole for the MRM then I'll just leave you guys to it. I've done more than my stint of dealing with that crazy ****. The entire body of public discourse in schools, colleges, government, on television, in movies, in books, in magazines and newspapers in much of the industrialized West has been a "waterhole" for feminist lies and edicts for at least four decades now. Sorry that opinions expressed in a single thread on the internet are so distasteful to you.
Taramere Posted November 14, 2011 Posted November 14, 2011 (edited) No, the energy is spent in attempts to have false rape accusation accepted as the legitimate issue it is rather than a departure point for self-serving claims of insensitivity towards rape victims that it inevitably entails. It's exactly the same thing you are doing with the Sandusky clip, trying to deflect from any discussion of the actual issue of misandry in media. If indeed this thread about real women should really be a discussion about the issue of misandry in the media, then I think the media story I've cited is in fact very relevant. You're a single issue poster. Your focus is against feminism. There are some feminism arguments I support, others I reject...but in the matter of taking interest and being concerned about men's issues my number one concern relates to men being the victims of violence...and the silence that often surrounds that. Real women care a lot more about the safety and well being of the men in their lives than they do about crap relating to how men are portrayed in tv sitcoms. Whether those men are 8 or 80. Obviously given the vulnerable nature of children, and the unfortunate fact that they are sexually attractive to a predatory segment of the population, they require extra protection. That sitcoms often portray men (along with everybody else) in an unflattering light in sitcoms is a non-issue in my book. Anybody who frets over sitcoms making fun of people must have a pretty care-free existence. That the media portrays sexual offenders as being predominantly male is an issue. It calls for examination of whether these portrayals reflect the facts. Whether sex offenders really are more usually male. You seem more concerned with dismissing these reports as a misandrist conspiracy, than considering the matter of whether it is in fact true that sexual offenders are most usually male. That in cases where women are labelled as paedophiles, on reading the story it will generally emerge that the boy in these cases had reached sexual maturity...and therefore while a crime has been committed, it isn't paedophilia in the way that somebody molesting a 7 year old is paedophilia. Those stories of women sleeping with 15 year old boys don't get buried. They tend to receive a lot of (albeit salactious) coverage - accompanied by howls for justice to be meted out in the same way that it would be meted out to a man who had sex with a ten year old. You don't, after all, see the same media coverage every time a man sleeps with a girl under 16. When it comes to bona fide paedophilia involving children who have not reached sexual maturity (and are often nowhere near it) the people involved are usually male. That's not misandrist, it's fact - which you will find in any peer reviewed study of paedophilia. Misandry would involve ranting "men are all paedophiles...it's awful...they're such monsters." It is not, however, misandry to state simple facts. Like most people, I find sexual offences against children a particularly abhorrent crime. Most men in the mainstream, in my experience, will tend to respond to reports of child sexual abuse by expressing anger and aggression against the perpetrators. I think you've got to be pretty far gone as an activist to have a kneejerk "coverage of these stories and identification of the perpetrators as male is part of a misandrist media conspiracy" to something as vile as the sexual abuse of children. The entire body of public discourse in schools, colleges, government, on television, in movies, in books, in magazines and newspapers in much of the industrialized West has been a "waterhole" for feminist lies and edicts for at least four decades now. Sorry that opinions expressed in a single thread on the internet are so distasteful to you. I don't find arguments against feminism distasteful per se. Any movement or political belief system should be open to challenge. What I find distasteful is that you seem to regard every report of a crime, where the perpetrator or alleged perpetrator is male, as being part of a misandrist/feminist conspiracy. That, to me, is where the burial of truth begins. And the media report I mentioned is particularly relevant to the subject of truths being buried.. You've made it very clear, from your posts, that you are less concerned with truths and more concerned with attacking what you regard as the dark forces of feminism at every opportunity. You've howled on several occasions about being compared to a Holocaust denier. Well, I had a brief and pointless argument on this board recently with somebody who is actually a Holocaust denier and makes no bones about it. The subject matter might be different, but the notion of a conspiracy of lies aimed at stigmatising a certain group (Germans, men) comes from the same paranoid place that regards genuine victims with a kind of "they're not really victims, and I'll set out to prove it at any cost" mentality that is close to being some bizarre kind of envy, rather than with any empathy. Edited November 14, 2011 by Taramere
donnamaybe Posted November 14, 2011 Posted November 14, 2011 A history of oppression of women at the hands of men is a lie? A ridiculous statement like that makes one want to read no further. However, I agree that many women go waaay overboard on the whole feminism thing. And, yes, there are women who "cry wolf" as regards sexual harassment or rape allegations. We had a case of a college student from another country being accused of rape. He was aquitted thanks to the hard work of one of our attorneys. A female attorney.
Disenchantedly Yours Posted November 14, 2011 Posted November 14, 2011 Likewise men being kicked in the crotch. You never see women getting kicked in the cooch, wedgies or "titty twisters," that's no laughing matter, men though? Fair game. It's ingrained in our culture that it's OK to laugh at the suffering of a man, but not of a woman. No idea to what extent feminism caused this or not, but am pretty damn sure that constantly portraying men as evil abusers and victimizing women doesn't help. In general, slap stick violent comdey DOES appeal to men more then it doe to women. Which is why you will see a man get kicked in the privates but not a woman. This is stuff men go "ohhh dude" with eyes wide open eating it up while a lot of women kind of cringe. However, the movie HouseBunny (quite a cute film), had shown some of the girls breast punching each other. Like the top mean girl would do it to her side kick throughout the comedy and at the end, the other girl did it back. Or have you ever seen most any Sandra Bullock comdey where she is most likely hurting herself at some point? And even some of Anna Feris other comedies do that too. Although the idea that it's not okay to laugh at female suffering, but it's okay to laugh at men's is completely false. General movies and media mock both men and women. Uusually in different ways. Men are more likely to be exploited physically while women are more likely to be exploited visually. Further, lets look at porn. Not to make this into a porn argument but in most porn, women are treated more violently then any "acting" found in movies with slap stick violent humor. There are things you can to a woman's body in porn that more often then not, you don't see happen to a man's. It's all about male pleasure while the woman is expected to be slapped around, choked, put in very uncomfortable positions for his gratification. The fact that you don't see this, is pretty telling about what *you* care about. As for men being portrayed as evil abusers, while most men are not evil abusers, men are more often guilty of violent crime. That's is just a statistical fact. Although in recent decade, women are more violent then the use to be. Especially among young teenage girls and I do consider that a serious problem.
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