the troubling number of cynical, bitter, sexually inexperienced men on this forum

[norajane]

Honestly, dating these days has become extremely complicated, for both men and women.

It really has, and it's so different from when I was younger. Just about everyone I've been in a relationship with has been a friend of a friend, or a friend of a friend of a friend, coworkers or friends of coworkers, acquaintances from work or other activities. I've never done online dating. And the one guy I dated that I met in a bar was a regular at the neighborhood bar that my friends and I went to because one of our group tended bar there part time for extra cash.

 

Mixed groups of friends, whether they be casual or close friends, work friends or gym friends or softball friends or neighbors or whatever, are a great resource for meeting other people. Especially if they are dating or are involved in activities that you are not - it's like facebook, except it's real people interacting and bringing other people into your orbit through real life activities. It makes sense that you would have a little something in common with friends of friends, or friends of friends of friends.

 

Do people not have friends anymore that they hang out with in person and do things with? Are the people who have trouble dating lacking in same-sex friends? Do they make friends with coworkers and neighbors and the guys in their mountain biking groups?

[somedude81]

You need to put aside your preoccupation with sex. I understand where you would be coming from with that - I really do - but no matter how old you are right now, you need to get more comfortable with DATING before you can really expect to find the connection that will lead you to sex.

Did you understand the post you quoted?

 

If so, where you getting that I'm preoccupied with sex?

 

I said I'm not a dog that wants to have sex with everything I see. Meaning, I don't see women as sex objects.

 

Sure I want to have sex, I'm not going to deny that, but it's not going to be a big enough reason for me to approach random women.

 

I would love to get comfortable with dating. But as I said, just about every woman I've asked out has said no. So I'm not given any opportunities to be comfortable.

 

Unless you want to follow the advice given to hire a pro or a sex therapist, which are viable options.

When you say pro, are you talking about a prostitute? If so, getting one of those won't help at all.

 

A sex therapist is something I thought about, but I don't have money I can throw at that.

 

 

Obviously you are not one of the socially "smooth" people. That's not an insult. But if you are not willing to work through some of your social hurdles, arriving at the "HAVE SEX NOW" place is going to be more and more elusive.

I have never been one of the" HAVE SEX NOW" guys. I don't know where you get that.

 

I know I have many social hurdles to overcome. The problem is I don't exactly know what they are and how to start working on them. All I know is what I want to become, and a very vague idea how to get there.

 

 

For the record, guys - I was talking about this whole syndrome last night with my husband. It was not that long ago that it was perfectly acceptable to not have an active sex life if you weren't married. There are still MANY people who are not having an active sex life, but who will be someday. The media is not showing this, and seeing hundreds of "hookups" in front of your face every weekend is not supporting this, but it's a fact. You are not the world's biggest loser if you aren't having an active sex life, or if you are a 30 something year old virgin. But if you keep feeling like you are being gypped out of an entitlement of some kind - you are way off track.

Why am I off-track for feeling gypped out of sex and relationships? Is it not a natural human need and desire?

 

Why do I have go without simply because I'm unlucky in love?

 

Active sex life or not, I think it's unnatural to go six months or more without having sex. When you are perfectly capable to do it and have the desire to.

[fortyninethousand322]

Mixed groups of friends, whether they be casual or close friends, work friends or gym friends or softball friends or neighbors or whatever, are a great resource for meeting other people. Especially if they are dating or are involved in activities that you are not - it's like facebook, except it's real people interacting and bringing other people into your orbit through real life activities. It makes sense that you would have a little something in common with friends of friends, or friends of friends of friends.

 

Do people not have friends anymore that they hang out with in person and do things with? Are the people who have trouble dating lacking in same-sex friends? Do they make friends with coworkers and neighbors and the guys in their mountain biking groups?

 

I have friends, a pretty good amount of them (although there's always room for more I suppose). The problem is this hasn't helped me at all.

 

Basically this is what happened: in my main group of friends there's one guy who's always been good with women, he's outgoing, confident, cool, etc. Back when he was single, every single girl we met was automatically drawn to him to the exclusion of everyone else in the group. When he wasn't interested in them (or only wanted to hook up) it's not like they moved on to someone else in the group: they simply found a new group to hang with. Now that he's getting married (and has a baby with the girl he's marrying) we no longer hang out like before; we pretty much just watch movies or play basketball. All the other guys in the group have girlfriends, but they all met their gfs online or in high school. Even friends of mine who have said "there's a girl I think you should meet" never end up actually introducing me to the girl. Once or twice the guy ended up dating the girl himself, and the rest of the times he just forgot and then the girl started dating someone else.

 

Then of course there's the problem of me being unable to make anything happen with the women I do meet. This summer I had a co-ed basketball league. Outside of some minor chit-chat, nothing ever really happened with them either. Not necessarily dating-wise, but I was never really invited to any social events or parties that they had (where I could presumably meet women or other people). Seriously, outside of when I was in college (graduated in May) I haven't really met any women for a long time.

[norajane]

Then of course there's the problem of me being unable to make anything happen with the women I do meet. This summer I had a co-ed basketball league. Outside of some minor chit-chat, nothing ever really happened with them either. Not necessarily dating-wise, but I was never really invited to any social events or parties that they had (where I could presumably meet women or other people).

 

Didn't your basketball league have a happy hour after the games? My bf was in a softball league for a long time, and they always had drinks somewhere after the games, and they would invite their friends who had come to watch the game to come, or other people to meet them at the bar. It's a fun way to get to know the other players...once you make friends with people, they do start inviting you to parties. Or you can invite them to parties you throw, or to gatherings out with your other friends. Same with co-workers.

 

If your team doesn't do that, maybe you could suggest starting it? It's fun.

[fortyninethousand322]

I'm afraid some of these guys are hopeless, unless they have a consciousness changing epiphany. I do believe this happens, though, so maybe a couple of them will be blessed with one.

 

 

I think you're right. It's just been a struggle to deal with that reality. I'd really like to not go through life being attracted to women and unable to do anything about it. I've been looking for a pill or something to take to not be attracted to women anymore, but so far no luck.

[sweetjasmine]

Yes. A person who can get another human being to love and/or care about them is worth more than someone who cannot. At least that's how I see it. So yes, a cheater/abuser/whatever > me.

 

So you're defining worth based on what someone can get and not what they can give. That's an inherently self-centered point of view, don't you think so? I'm sure some people loved Jeffrey Dahmer and Ted Bundy, but you'd be hard-pressed to find a sane person who thinks those two people were worthy human beings.

 

And why is this the only criterion for deciding how much a human being is worth? Do you think there's more to you as a human being than what you can and can't offer to a person of the sex you're attracted to in a romantic relationship? Sorry to Godwin the thread, but under your logic, Hitler was a more worthy person than Sir Isaac Newton because, hey, Hitler got laid, and that's all that counts!

 

Do you want to derive your self-worth from what other people think of you or what they give you? That way of thinking sounds to me like, "I got more presents for Christmas than you did, so I must be a better person."

 

Do you think that's a successful strategy for long-term happiness? Say you meet a lovely young woman and hit it off. Say you start dating and end up in a serious relationship. How would you feel? Like king of the world, right? Well, how would you feel if the relationship hit a rough spot, and she dumped you? Would you feel worthless again? Or would you feel slightly above worthless because you've had at least one relationship?

 

Deriving your self-worth and self-esteem from another person's behavior means you'll never have a stable sense of self-worth. It'll always be dependent on someone else whose actions you can't control, someone who has thoughts and feelings of their own.

 

Why would it be disturbing? Look maybe I just need to learn my place. And my place is not with women. It's bad for them, and selfish of me to even think I could date a girl.

 

And now you're shifting into self-pity mode as a self-defense mechanism.

[carhill]

I've been looking for a pill or something to take to not be attracted to women anymore, but so far no luck.

If you're serious, talk with your doctor about Cyproterone or an equivalent.

 

ETA, having gone through long periods of celibacy and being a somewhat 'normal' male, I've seen a marked connection between voluntary or involuntarily lack of sexual contact/orgasm/intimacy and marked periods of uncharacteristic aggression and moodiness. My belief is that this is hormonal. Examining behaviors within healthy LTR's and when my M was healthy, I saw a dearth of similar behaviors/psychology. Is there a connection? Could the very lack of sexual activity be a chemical reason for the perceived cynicism and bitterness by some? Unknown. Possible

Edited November 6, 2011 by carhill

[Woggle]

I think it's the complete lack of empathy for men on this board that really makes them angry. It's not just men who can't get a woman but men who are cheated on or men who are going through nasty divorces. Whatever a man goes through he gets blamed and if he happens to vent his frustrations there go the women trying to tar and father him.

 

It is really is frustrating when you come to a board made for venting and seeking advice on relationships and all you get is nastiness from the opposite sex. It really does not give you the best impression of the opposite sex.

 

Also it is frustration at realizing that everybody men are taught growing up these days is just crap. All that stuff about respecting women and treating them as equals means nothing out there in the real world and men wonder what the hell women even want from us. When we turn into players and jerks out of sheer frustration then women want to scold us when we wish things were different.

[fortyninethousand322]

So you're defining worth based on what someone can get and not what they can give. That's an inherently self-centered point of view, don't you think so? I'm sure some people loved Jeffrey Dahmer and Ted Bundy, but you'd be hard-pressed to find a sane person who thinks those two people were worthy human beings.

 

Sort of. It's not just about what someone can get, certainly being to give is good too. But, if you're unable to experience relationships, dating, and sex and you want to, then yes your worth is certainly low. And while Dahmer and Bundy were not "worthy human beings" they certainly were higher on the totem pole than I am. And if they aren't, I certainly don't feel like I'm higher on the totem pole.

 

And why is this the only criterion for deciding how much a human being is worth? Do you think there's more to you as a human being than what you can and can't offer to a person of the sex you're attracted to in a romantic relationship? Sorry to Godwin the thread, but under your logic, Hitler was a more worthy person than Sir Isaac Newton because, hey, Hitler got laid, and that's all that counts!

 

From what I read, Newton wasn't really all that interested in sex so the comparison doesn't really apply here. It's not about the "sex", but about wanting or desiring something you can't get but yet is perfectly normal for people to have.

 

Do you want to derive your self-worth from what other people think of you or what they give you? That way of thinking sounds to me like, "I got more presents for Christmas than you did, so I must be a better person."

 

Do you think that's a successful strategy for long-term happiness? Say you meet a lovely young woman and hit it off. Say you start dating and end up in a serious relationship. How would you feel? Like king of the world, right? Well, how would you feel if the relationship hit a rough spot, and she dumped you? Would you feel worthless again? Or would you feel slightly above worthless because you've had at least one relationship?

 

Deriving your self-worth and self-esteem from another person's behavior means you'll never have a stable sense of self-worth. It'll always be dependent on someone else whose actions you can't control, someone who has thoughts and feelings of their own.

 

If I ever got a girlfriend who then dumped me, I'd be much more ok with it than I am in my current situation. Because at least in that case I would know that I could get a girlfriend and that someone at one time did care about me. Whereas now, I have no idea if that's a true statement or not.

 

 

 

And now you're shifting into self-pity mode as a self-defense mechanism.

 

Maybe. But it's not like I asked to be in this position at this point in my life. It's not like I signed up to volunteer for the perma-virgin, perma-single lifestyle. It's something that I've stumbled into that can only be undone with an incredible amount of luck and/or pity from some girl.

[cerridwen]

I'm afraid some of these guys are hopeless, unless they have a consciousness changing epiphany. I do believe this happens, though, so maybe a couple of them will be blessed with one.

 

I think you're right. It's just been a struggle to deal with that reality. I'd really like to not go through life being attracted to women and unable to do anything about it. I've been looking for a pill or something to take to not be attracted to women anymore, but so far no luck.

 

Since you bolded only the first part of the sentence, 49, I'm wondering what you think of the rest of it.

Consciousness changing can be worked on and achieved; it's not something that's only divinely bestowed.

I haven't had your dating obstacles, but I have overcome childhood abuse and neglect by consciously working toward changing my perspective.

You can too.

I recall in another post, while giving hope and support to another, you cited some miraculous sports comebacks.

You ended by saying something along the lines of "so nothing is impossible."

It was inspiring.

Consider re-adopting that belief and applying it to yourself.

And I invite you to look into books/MP3s on changing one's defeatist attitude, acquiring resiliency, sports psychology, Eastern philosophy and/or spirituality.

Lots of good stuff out there to strengthen the mind, and change the lens through which we look at the world.

[fortyninethousand322]

Since you bolded only the first part of the sentence, 49, I'm wondering what you think of the rest of it.

Consciousness changing can be worked on and achieved; it's not something that's only divinely bestowed.

I haven't had your dating obstacles, but I have overcome childhood abuse and neglect by consciously working toward changing my perspective.

You can too.

I recall in another post, while giving hope and support to another, you cited some miraculous sports comebacks.

You ended by saying something along the lines of "so nothing is impossible."

It was inspiring.

Consider re-adopting that belief and applying it to yourself.

And I invite you to look into books/MP3s on changing one's defeatist attitude, acquiring resiliency, sports psychology, Eastern philosophy and/or spirituality.

Lots of good stuff out there to strengthen the mind, and change the lens through which we look at the world.

 

Yeah I know, I'm one of those walking contradictions. It's odd because when I'm doing something else (anything besides dating or approaching women) I want to take charge and I enjoy a challenge. A couple weeks ago I was thinking about this while driving home after playing basketball (in a semi-serious league) having hit a game winning shot at the buzzer that night. At the end of the game I always want the ball in my hands, I've taken shots at the buzzer (made some, missed some), done all of that without even thinking (granted in the grand scheme of things it's really not that big of a deal, but in the moment it is you know). And yet with dating it's like I can't turn my brain off and just go, react, do what needs to be done. It aggravates the hell out of me.

 

And then of course I've always been known to be more positive about other people's dating prospects than my own. For whatever reason.

[Sanman]

I think the more interesting question is where is this number of such men coming from. Here are some of my thoughts... I am sure someone will have issue with them.

 

I don't think most of these guys are bitter from a single experience. It is more a ton of smaller experiences. Whether it is a ton of initial rejections or being used by women. Then they come here and see many of the women who are messed up and get a jaded view. The reason is the happy women with great guys are not posting here. I know my gf is not. I have a unique perspective on this. Being a minority, I know what it can feel like to be be ignored by women or have them be uninterested in you. Such things helped me develop my 'game' in my younger years. However, being an above average looking and accomplished guy has put me in good demand to women of my ethnicity. One of the things I have learned, guys, is that your dating pool is only the number of INTERESTED women. This means (to me) If you can't ask them out and at least get a first date, there is no need to get to know them for romantic purposes. They will not change their mind and want to date you after getting to know you. They will be attracted and want to get to know you or not.

 

That said, all the improvement in the world does not mean it will work. The world is not fair and it does require some luck. All asking many women out does is maximize the chance that you will not miss the opportunity og a good woman if it shows up. I admit that the reason I am in a good relationship was all luck and chance. However, if I has dismissed the opportunity, it never would have happened.

 

Given all this, I do think society is to blame a bit too. Many of these guys approached dating as getting to know a girl and then asking her out. I have friends and have scored the women they were having 'meaningful conversations' with for hours in less than 15 minutes with drunken bravado. Society is all forgiving now. That is great for those who were legitimately marginalized by societal judgement. However, now cheating, affairs, constantly bouncing to different partners, divorce, etc are a bit too accepted. Having a long-term affair with your boss? It is okay. You are able to treat people like garbage and it is your right to do so, right? There is something to be said for societal pressure. Much of the reason that most people settle down and get married in their late twenties is peer/societal pressure and SOME of that is okay because without it, many people would be a bit lost. That leaves some of the guys that want the world to follow those old courting rules in a lurch. There is no more societal pressures to allow that kind of slow pace dating any longer in many cases.

[johan]

I think it's the complete lack of empathy for men on this board that really makes them angry. It's not just men who can't get a woman but men who are cheated on or men who are going through nasty divorces. Whatever a man goes through he gets blamed and if he happens to vent his frustrations there go the women trying to tar and father him.

 

It is really is frustrating when you come to a board made for venting and seeking advice on relationships and all you get is nastiness from the opposite sex. It really does not give you the best impression of the opposite sex.

 

Also it is frustration at realizing that everybody men are taught growing up these days is just crap. All that stuff about respecting women and treating them as equals means nothing out there in the real world and men wonder what the hell women even want from us. When we turn into players and jerks out of sheer frustration then women want to scold us when we wish things were different.

 

I have seen tons of threads in which a guy describes his crumbling marriage and what his wife is up to, and those threads end up being long, full of support and hardly anyone comes down on the guy for anything except staying with his wife for longer than absolutely necessary.

 

I see tons of threads in which people unload on a woman for how she acts when she is dating. Even for relatively innocuous things.

 

I don't know where you get this lack of empathy thing. I think you live on another planet; you're reading the planet Saturn LS, but somehow you posts are making it to the planet Earth LS. Or you have special glasses that block out every third word in every post you read.

[Taramere]

You need to put aside your preoccupation with sex. I understand where you would be coming from with that - I really do - but no matter how old you are right now, you need to get more comfortable with DATING before you can really expect to find the connection that will lead you to sex.

 

Yes, I agree...except that I think getting comfortable with dating might be too much for somedude right now - especially if he's being turned down when he asks women out for dates.

 

It seems as though he is hung up on this dreadful, awkward business of asking women for a date and being turned down. Which suggests to me that he needs to learn to be more comfortable with just being around women and talking in a mildly flirtatious way to women. Having banter.

 

Maybe he needs to remove from himself the pressure to ask women out (for the time being), and focus on just trying to have pleasant, mildly flirtatious pressure-free interactions. Instead of seeing every exchange he has with a woman into this stressful event in which he is under pressure to her out on a date despite the miserable sinking sensation in his stomach that tells him she's going to say no.

[dasein]

You didn't read my posts at all, right?

 

My post couldn't have been more directly responsive to yours, and ironically, you completely ignore everything said in my post. The ingrained tone of privilege is amazing and typical here, and a very large part of the supposed problem in the thread topic.

[Taramere]

I have seen tons of threads in which a guy describes his crumbling marriage and what his wife is up to, and those threads end up being long, full of support and hardly anyone comes down on the guy for anything except staying with his wife for longer than absolutely necessary.

 

I see tons of threads in which people unload on a woman for how she acts when she is dating. Even for relatively innocuous things.

 

I don't know where you get this lack of empathy thing. I think you live on another planet; you're reading the planet Saturn LS, but somehow you posts are making it to the planet Earth LS. Or you have special glasses that block out every third word in every post you read.

 

Quite. And considering the vast amount of time and empathy Woggle has personally received from female posters on this board, it seems like a pretty ungracious perspective.

[dasein]

I really don't want to get into a back and forth with you.

 

That's cool because if you insist on making your post within a block quote, it's difficult to reply meaningfully anyway.

[somedude81]

Yes, I agree...except that I think getting comfortable with dating might be too much for somedude right now - especially if he's being turned down when he asks women out for dates.

 

It seems as though he is hung up on this dreadful, awkward business of asking women for a date and being turned down. Which suggests to me that he needs to learn to be more comfortable with just being around women and talking in a mildly flirtatious way to women. Having banter.

 

Maybe he needs to remove from himself the pressure to ask women out (for the time being), and focus on just trying to have pleasant, mildly flirtatious pressure-free interactions. Instead of seeing every exchange he has with a woman into this stressful event in which he is under pressure to her out on a date despite the miserable sinking sensation in his stomach that tells him she's going to say no.

I've actually been at that place for quite a while now.

 

The problem comes when I see that we both seem to enjoy talking to each other and I have do decide if asking her out is worth making the situation between us awkward.

 

I've been turned down by too many women whom I thought I had a connection with that it's something I dread doing. I really don't have any belief that women I ask out will say yes, so I don't really bother any more.

 

Frankly, I think I'm too content with the bold till I get home and wish that I was actually having dates with the girl instead of just having fun when were in a school or work environment.

 

The last time I asked out a girl was in May and I ended up getting rejected by 5 girls in a two month period.

 

I'm also really annoyed that the girls who are the friendliest to me, the ones I would ask out, have boyfriends. One girl at school and two at work. Each girl shows a beyond normal level of friendliness/flirtatiousness and all have brought up boyfriends, before I could ask them out.

 

Sigh.

[dasein]

I think a lot of us (talking from a female) do know very well what unrestrained misogyny on the internet reads like. It's not as though there's some masonic conspiracy that prevents us from having access to that stuff. It's really just one of those inevitabilities about the internet. We all know there are some messed up people out there, and it shouldn't be a surprise that plenty of them would have a very strong compulsion to verbally abuse or try to shock others via the internet.

 

Most of the venters on here sound generally harmless though unhappy.

 

Fine, wll take you at your word. The reasonable conclusion then becomes that all the "hate" callers, male or female here, "you just hate women," "it saddens me..." etc. are doing it on purpose to take potshots reflective of their own problems while preserving the illusion of "crusading" against imaginary hate crimes, and that's every bit as much a problem here as any angry male virgins.

 

Some, like Woggle, have become part of the landscape of Loveshack. A bit like McDonalds burger, people will read Woggle's posts because they know exactly what they're getting and there's a comforting familiarity to it all. Plus, although he is eternally embroiled in the gender war, he isn't abusive and he also demonstrates empathy towards the opposite sex.

 

Do you feel compelled to turn into McDonalds whenever you pass one? I don't. Once more, if the above is the case, then surely the pile-on phenomenon, whether it's directed at woggle or torn curtain or eternal sunshine or the angry male virgins is just as bad and reflective of the problems of other posters who simply can't resist a free pass to bloat and bump threads with lots of noise. In other words, anyone who thinks the thread topic is a legitimate problem here (I don't actually, it just gets more press) who "jumps on the pile" at every opportunity, is a hypocrite.

 

This isn't all a gender issue. Lately I have been trying to have my say and then avoid repeating it unless there is meaningful response. Carhill answered the thread problem already, the problem isn't all that to start with, miniscule in relation to the entire forum, there is an ignore feature, and if one doesn't like that, simply don't reply. Repeatedly jumping on the pile without offering anything that furthers the thread is just as bad as derailing it in the first place.

 

Using expected posting behavior as an excuse to exorcise one's own demons via potshots is just as bad as stirring the pot in the first place. There is a finger pointing tendency here involving the comfort of "it's all them." The thread topic is not all, and IMO not even mostly a "them" problem. People with the high post counts, since they should know better, are the WORST offenders, not some angry, raw person who just stumbled in here. Many forget that for many men, the first few hundred posts here may be the first time they have openly discussed their relationship issues in decades, maybe ever. Lots of time for things to bottle up, unlike women who tend to discuss these issues in their support networks from an early age. Those newbies should be cut lots of slack, even when they get tiresome and repetitive, not the ones who should know better. If they are still doing the same after 500-1000 posts, sure, they start to become culpable. But the veteran posters who prowl around here just waiting to pounce, in a DATING forum where people are going to be chapped, are the real problem IMO.

 

In other cases...well, the recent Kali thread demonstrated the tendency a minority of frustrated "nice guys" have to be so self involved and embittered about this whole "women prefer jerks" thing that they will react abusively to a woman who is in an abusive relationship. Which is pretty messed up.

 

You don't find that thread just a wee bit fishy? But NM beside the point. If you rush to characterize someone's posts as abusive, be ready to back it up. We can discuss your point further once you have. For now, should they derail any thread like that? No. But if you think that thread is legitimate, the only advice that should be given is to handle it locally, ANY other advice has the potential to be just as wrong and damaging as derailing by an angry male virgin.

 

Semantics and hyperbole are another big problem here. Gross mischaracterizations of what others post doesn't seem to be frowned on here, or at least not when certain posters do it. Since you claim to have been around the net, you must know that is not the case elsewhere. Fabricating something that someone else did not say in most moderated forums I've been involved with or grossly mischaracterizing their posts, is right up there with viagra spam and will get one instabanned. A discussion forum can't exist in a meaningful way when people grossly mischaracterize and even make up what others post for their own benefit, to bolster their own position.

 

A lot of it is an ongoing game whereby the man expresses some variant of "women suck" and female posters respond "you suck".

 

Exactly. Here's the difference though, the former is not a violation of the TOS, the latter is explicitly. I didn't write the TOS or community guidelines, and if posters can't get their head around them, they need to either petition them to be amended or go to another community with different community guidelines, not continue to BREAK the TOS at every opportunity and then have the gall to complain about the posting habits of other posters.

 

It might be a negative exchange, but the guy involved is probably happy just to be getting some kind of female attention.

 

Agree, now persuade the "hate" callers to understand this.

 

 

a) those sites don't tend to have much in the way of female posters ...and I think for a lot of venters, even if they won't communicate directly with women, it's important that they feel women are witnessing their vents.

 

Some have significant women posters, but agree generally, not only do they want to have a female audience, but I maintain that despite their seeming intransigence, they know there are healthy alternatives to their existing attitudes, or at least hope there are, and are trying to ferret them out. Having legitimate female input is important to that process. They are learning more than they let on by being here.

 

b) From what I've seen of predominantly male sites, they tend to be far less tolerant of posters who are endlessly whining/negative than LS is.

 

Agree partially; the other side of that coin is that many LS posters wouldn't last a day in those places either, and it wouldn't just be due to heckling and potshots, but an adamant refusal here of certain posters to engage in anything resembling honest, rational, responsive, adult discussion, preferring Springer Show BS instead. If a poster on those boards made a post directly responsive to another post, and was then told "you didn't read my post," you tell me, what result on a forum with a higher level of expectation of rationality and responsiveness?

Edited November 6, 2011 by dasein

[Mrlonelyone]

I'm also really annoyed that the girls who are the friendliest to me, the ones I would ask out, have boyfriends. One girl at school and two at work. Each girl shows a beyond normal level of friendliness/flirtatiousness and all have brought up boyfriends, before I could ask them out.

 

Sigh.

 

 

Here's the thing about that situation dude. As many will tell you women with LTR's and even married women are not averse to fooling around with men they aren't married to. (Yes yes ditto for married and LTR'd men).

 

Why? Remember what I said about our long term evolutionary past. A certain degree of prolificness is in the DNA of every creature that has two sexes.

 

So their saying they have a BF or even husband... may not be shutting you down. It may mean they want you to know that they might fool around with you, but beyond that....

 

I think it's very likely that there is more than one woman in your life right now who would date you seriously if you made the move. From what you have said, more than one probably wants to do you at least a little. So Cheer up it could be worse. You don't look like this do you?

 

http://www.doctorsecrets.com/images/Joseph_Carey_Merrick.png

[Mme. Chaucer]

Did you understand the post you quoted?

 

If so, where you getting that I'm preoccupied with sex?

 

I understood it. It was not complicated.

 

I said I'm not a dog that wants to have sex with everything I see. Meaning, I don't see women as sex objects.

 

You said it in the context of responding to a post about how you might be able to get DATES, not SEX. So, along with your posting history in general, I think it points to your preoccupation with sex. .

 

Intellectually, I believe, you don't see women as "sex objects," but your preoccupation with sex makes you see them that way. For heaven's sake, you've recently equated a man having a girlfriend with a man having "his own porn."

 

You have expressed this very clearly, somedude, in many threads, so saying that it's not the case is not going to change the way you've presented yourself.

 

Sure I want to have sex, I'm not going to deny that, but it's not going to be a big enough reason for me to approach random women.

 

I hope you understand that I don't think there is one thing wrong with you wanting to have sex. But you are stuck on it.

 

You probably need to find some ways of interacting with women - plenty of them - where sex or dating is not really on the table for any of you, like Taramere says:

 

It seems as though he is hung up on this dreadful, awkward business of asking women for a date and being turned down. Which suggests to me that he needs to learn to be more comfortable with just being around women and talking in a mildly flirtatious way to women. Having banter.

 

Maybe he needs to remove from himself the pressure to ask women out (for the time being), and focus on just trying to have pleasant, mildly flirtatious pressure-free interactions. Instead of seeing every exchange he has with a woman into this stressful event in which he is under pressure to her out on a date despite the miserable sinking sensation in his stomach that tells him she's going to say no.

 

 

Why am I off-track for feeling gypped out of sex and relationships? Is it not a natural human need and desire?

 

Certainly it's a normal need and desire. It's the "gypped" part that's the problem.

 

I get the idea that examples like this are completely wasted on you, but here's one anyway:

 

I have a friend who is relatively young and who is "managing" terminal cancer. She is going to die from it. She is not going to have many, many of her "natural human needs and desires" met. But, she is not feeling "gypped." That's why she has a good quality of life, in general.

 

ALL the beauties of life are gifts. We are "entitled" to very little.

 

Why do I have go without simply because I'm unlucky in love?

 

That's really lame. Why do I have to go without being rich simply because I am not good at making money?

 

Active sex life or not, I think it's unnatural to go six months or more without having sex. When you are perfectly capable to do it and have the desire to.

 

Well, I don't agree with that. And have not lived like that, either.

[Taramere]

I'm also really annoyed that the girls who are the friendliest to me, the ones I would ask out, have boyfriends. One girl at school and two at work. Each girl shows a beyond normal level of friendliness/flirtatiousness and all have brought up boyfriends, before I could ask them out.

 

Sigh.

 

They're probably more relaxed, friendly and approachable precisely because they have boyfriends. If you're happily in a relationship, then it's easy to think that because you've mentally detached yourself from "the market" other people don't see you as being on it.

 

What's your body confidence like around women? Let's say you went along to something like a dance class. I don't mean ballet...I'm thinking in terms of ceroc or any other Latin American style dancing where you're up close, holding and dancing with a woman. Would you tend to be hesitant about the way you held a woman, or would you grab her quite firmly and confidently?

 

If you don't know, then I'd suggest maybe looking into a local class like that and going along to it - because these things are important. If a man touches like a limp fish, lacking energy or confidence in his movements, it's a turn off like you wouldn't believe....but it's something that can probably be changed quite easily. That kind of environment (dance class) pushes you to be up close and personal to women (you really won't have much choice) and you'll know yourself how comfortable you are with that. The physical presence you have around a woman is hugely important. That's not about being tall; it's aout projecting confidence and energy in your movements. Being confident in the way you touch women (when you touch them).

 

Are you involved in anything (eg dance, martial arts) that would be likely to increase your physical presence and sense of energy/body confidence?

[dasein]

To begin with, some of these guys seem to be each other's sock puppets. So I suspect their actual number is a lot smaller than there seems to be.

 

If they were, it's really none of our business or concern. No medals are mentioned in the community guidelines for champion troll-calling for a reason. For every legitimate troll call or sock puppet call here, there's at least one obviously intended to shut down opposing points of view, and that's really obnoxious. Or...

 

"I got nothing, so I'll just crap up the thread by troll calling."

 

I'd rather read the troll posts themselves than the "is this a troll?" replies, at least the troll posts are sometimes funny. It's a moderation issue, not a member issue.

[Mme. Chaucer]

I hope you have the clarity to know that advice such as this:

 

So their saying they have a BF or even husband... may not be shutting you down. It may mean they want you to know that they might fool around with you, but beyond that....

 

would harmful to you to consider. You've already been dealing with many rejections.

 

I promise you that it would be a rare occurrence for a girl to tell a guy friend that she's "taken" in order to let him know she wants him sexually. No matter how much more DNA she wants to take onboard. Which is bogus, anyway.

 

Instead, please consider Taramere's very friendly and fun sounding suggestion. Who knows where it could lead.

 

One thing I really get from you - you sound like you are depressed, and I bet it's not all due to your women troubles. More physical stuff - especially if it gets you involved and even physically close to girls - can only help that.

[PlumPrincess]

I know you're trying plum, but do you really think you're the first person to tell me to hit the gym and get a good job? Do you think I'm not already working on that?

 

There is much more to that in getting a woman to date me.

 

Also all the ask out 100 women and keep trying till one says yes, posts people make aren't helpful either. I'm not a robot who can keep going from woman to woman without getting depressed. And I'm not a dog that wants to have sex with everything I see either.

I also said that you can start with a smaller step and smile at whoever you meet. It will make you feel good about yourself when people smile back, which many will do, and it will also make you look like someone who is open to meeting people. Have you tried that?

 

Are you advancing with your training at the gym? If not, get more information or a personal trainer. It seems that the gym is something that really pays off for guys. They get good results really quickly (unlike women).