thatone Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 Yes, intelligence in women you have no interest in producing actual children with is probably very highly overrated. What a pain in the arse we are! For awhile I was kind of mystified why the tattoo thing bothered you so much. I actually don't know too many women in my social circle who have them (all professional woman... most of them with children). Now I get it... This is a demographic anomaly. Women like me (accomplished, reasonably good looking, with 'average' nurturing skills) exist in a different social strata... The one that doesn't get tattoos. The women you are attracted to.. perhaps not terribly bright or ambitious, but nurturing and vain enough to tend to their bodies probably occupy the social strata where tattoos are accepted or common. That would be my observation of most men with tattoos as well (large ones at least)... so its not a gender thing. It's a class thing. I get it now... Thank you for being a good sport, Pierre. I really do like you... even if we don't agree on mens/womens roles. You've been an interesting 'subject' for this scientist... yeah, it is a class thing. he and i completely agree on that, although i don't think we're attracted to the same type of women. it's the mentality of a person that gets a visible tattoo these days. it displays a lack of sense of right/wrong or proper/improper. and i'm not surprised in the least that she and he found a list of other things they didn't get along because of.
ShannonMI Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 You want to find a mate. Do you realize that by not wanting kids you are excluding a huge number of very good men? Waht will you do if you run into Mr. Perfect, but he wants a child with you? Despite advocating children i could easily change my mind if I was with a wonderful woman that did not want children. I think the rigidity of your posture is not wise. Why not have an open mind? Mr. Perfect will obviously not be Mr. Perfect for me. If he wants kids and I don't, we are not compatible. It's a no brainer. Why am I so rigid? Because I DO NOT WANT CHILDREN. Period. I'm not going to date someone who wants kid and hem and haw about it when I know that I am not cut out for motherhood. It wouldn't be fair to him when I am 150% sure I don't want kids. Why waste his time dating him? And you are all about women who want children. You find them the most attractive and the most desirable. Why would you SETTLE for a woman that does not want kids? You do realize that would be settling, right?
thatone Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 Those parents are thinking.... "get out of the house and get a damned job!!" Then when you have a job and are doing well (the pressure is off of them), they start thinking how much fun it would be to be a grandparent. Those selfish parents!!! we're all selfish to a certain extent. some of us are just content with it and/or don't sugar coat it . the 'stupid' ones, in your words, are the ones who can't rationalize it.
ShannonMI Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 I don't think anyone can truly have an open mind. You either want kids or you don't. If you are ambiguous the odds are you will regret your final decision one way or another. I have seen it so many times, parents who thought they were ought to have kids and realised they had no knack for it or no interest in parenting after all. At least those of us that say no are honest. Precisely!! Its a black or white thing usually. There is no grey area. Of course there are some that are on the fence about wanting children. They go back and forth about it. I am not one of those people. Why would I appease a man with a child when I don't want one? The child would have one parent that wants him/her and one that would most likely be resentful. Not fair to a child.
ThsAmericanLife Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 I see beauty in well educated women, but I also can admire a less intelligent woman with other special attributes. The tattoos get to me, but i am not sure how they relate to reproduction. ok... bear with me a little bit while I put my 'Spock' hat on for a second... Once upon a time, women who were capable of producing large families were praised and enjoyed the highest status in the community. That is what was needed at the time. Kids worked the fields and helped with the chores. They were built in labor and were the only social safety net in one's old age. Truly. Our culture currently 'rewards' smart women who pursue careers and have fewer or no children. Most of them haven't lost their nurturing abilities... they have just been rechanneled into other activities (ie DOG raising...ha ha). For instance... I'm making a wonderful apple pie this afternoon from scratch... and simultaneously programming my company website and putting together lectures for my university students tomorrow (whom I also 'nurture'). I have this 'luxury' because I worked by arse off to get a PhD... and subverted nature's traditional role as one who simply produces offspring. Eons of genetic programming have not changed anything.... just re-directed the effort. ok... back to the tattoo argument. It would be highly frowned upon for a woman in my position (one that arguably is a high-status one) if I had tattoos. Women of lower status (no substantial genetic difference from me, except for lack of ambition and perhaps a bit of god-given intelligence) will find it more acceptable to have tattoos. Make sense?? I know it is a stretch, but you'll just have to accept that there are plenty of women who ARE nurturing and also ambitious and career driven. In different times, we'd be kicking arse on the farm and rounding up 15 kids with flair and creativity. But we ARE smart and have since recognized that lifestyle (or anything close to it) is simply, well, not smart. Neither are getting tattoos if you want a decent job.
Pierre Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 (edited) And you are all about women who want children. You find them the most attractive and the most desirable. Why would you SETTLE for a woman that does not want kids? You do realize that would be settling, right? It is called an open mind. This black and white mentally is not always healthy. There is a reason why GYN docs are reluctant to sterilize young women with no kids. LATER ON THEY CHANGE THEIR MIND! Edited November 7, 2011 by Pierre
ShannonMI Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 It is called an open mind. This black and white mentally is not always healthy. There is a reason why GYN docs are reluctant to sterilize young women with no kids. LATER ON THEY CHANGE THEIR MIND! Not this girl;) Black and white thinking is healthy when we are talking about another human life.
Pierre Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 Not this girl;) Black and white thinking is healthy when we are talking about another human life. You have two dogs. Do you realize that it is a huge job to properly care for dogs? Do you love your dogs? You sleep with your dogs. Will you spend money on the vet if the dogs are sick? Do you think your dogs are disposable?
Emilia Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 It is called an open mind. This black and white mentally is not always healthy. There is a reason why GYN docs are reluctant to sterilize young women with no kids. LATER ON THEY CHANGE THEIR MIND! I agree that a lot of youngsters don't know what they want. A lot of women and men change their mind late in their 20s as to what path to take. Sometimes (you would hope) it's because they realise they can make their own decisions. Pierre, there are times when you have to make big decisions in your life, having children is the biggest one you will ever make and it needs to be black and white. Do you want children or don't you want children? You can't have it both ways.
ShannonMI Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 You have two dogs. Do you realize that it is a huge job to properly care for dogs? Do you love your dogs? You sleep with your dogs. Will you spend money on the vet if the dogs are sick? Do you think your dogs are disposable? I have one dog. He isn't that much work. I let him out, walk him, feed him. Not a big deal. I do love my dog. Very much. I sleep with him, yes. I take him to the groomer and the vet a few times a year. And no Miloh is not disposable. I know people that get puppies and when they get big, they get rid of them. That makes me sick. Animals are not disposable. At least not for me. Where are you going with this?
Pierre Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 I have one dog. He isn't that much work. I let him out, walk him, feed him. Not a big deal. I do love my dog. Very much. I sleep with him, yes. I take him to the groomer and the vet a few times a year. And no Miloh is not disposable. I know people that get puppies and when they get big, they get rid of them. That makes me sick. Animals are not disposable. At least not for me. Where are you going with this? Caring for an animal is a bit like caring for a child. The only difference is that the kids are not kids forever. Some folks view their dogs as their kids. Are you one of them?
sweetjasmine Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 Caring for an animal is a bit like caring for a child. A bit. In that you're responsible for feeding them and giving them medical attention when necessary. The only difference is that the kids are not kids forever. The only difference? That's patently absurd. Children have a great deal more needs than animals and require a lot more care and nurture. Some folks view their dogs as their kids. Yes, but that doesn't make owning a dog comparable to raising a child!
xxoo Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 Pierre, there are times when you have to make big decisions in your life, having children is the biggest one you will ever make and it needs to be black and white. Do you want children or don't you want children? You can't have it both ways. Why does it need to be black and white? Why couldn't a couple, or individual, feel they'd be happy either way? You can't have it both ways, but you can consider both good options.
ShannonMI Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 Caring for an animal is a bit like caring for a child. The only difference is that the kids are not kids forever. Some folks view their dogs as their kids. Are you one of them? I consider him a dog, not a kid. I don't have the daunting responsiblity of molding him into a decent human being. Hes a dog. Dogs are dogs. And I've said this before....I did not give birth to him. I got him when he was 6 weeks old and I've taken care of him every since. There is a HUGE difference between an animal and a child. Yes, you can compare to an extent, but they really aren't the same.
ShannonMI Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 A bit. In that you're responsible for feeding them and giving them medical attention when necessary. The only difference? That's patently absurd. Children have a great deal more needs than animals and require a lot more care and nurture. Yes, but that doesn't make owning a dog comparable to raising a child! TOTALLY to the bolded portion!!!! Pierre you are crazy, but I love you:love:
Pierre Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 I consider him a dog, not a kid. I don't have the daunting responsiblity of molding him into a decent human being. Hes a dog. Dogs are dogs. And I've said this before....I did not give birth to him. I got him when he was 6 weeks old and I've taken care of him every since. There is a HUGE difference between an animal and a child. Yes, you can compare to an extent, but they really aren't the same. OOOOOOOOOOOOK!
Emilia Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 Why does it need to be black and white? Why couldn't a couple, or individual, feel they'd be happy either way? You can't have it both ways, but you can consider both good options. Because having children is a huge sacrifice and it is also a huge emotional need for those that want them. You can't be ambiguous about something as committed, major and involving as raising children. You either want to do it or you don't want to do. You either want to experience it or you don't. It's not something you can just shrug your shoulders about, cross your fingers and hope for the best. People who want children are usually distraught when they find out they can't conceive. They don't just say 'oh well, would have LOVED to have kids but guess that won't be happening now'. Having said that, I know a lot of people have them just because. Ironic then that I would probably make a better mother than a lot of the women that just get pregnant because that's the next thing to do on the list.
ShannonMI Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 OOOOOOOOOOOOK! Do you understand what I'm saying? Kids and animals are two different beasts. Animals are MUCH easier to care for.
xxoo Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 Because having children is a huge sacrifice and it is also a huge emotional need for those that want them. You can't be ambiguous about something as committed, major and involving as raising children. You either want to do it or you don't want to do. You either want to experience it or you don't. It's not something you can just shrug your shoulders about, cross your fingers and hope for the best. People who want children are usually distraught when they find out they can't conceive. They don't just say 'oh well, would have LOVED to have kids but guess that won't be happening now'. Having said that, I know a lot of people have them just because. Ironic then that I would probably make a better mother than a lot of the women that just get pregnant because that's the next thing to do on the list. I wanted children. I also wanted grad school, and travel, and more Sunday afternoons spent leisurely in bed with my H. It was a tough choice! In the end, we chose kids. But I'm sure we would have remained happy without. I see it a lot like my desire to go to grad school, and pursue a certain career that I always say "in an alternate life" I would have pursued. I made a choice between what were, for me, two very attractive options. It isn't that I didn't WANT to experience grad school--I did, very much. Happiness is wanting what you have, not having what you want.
Emilia Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 I wanted children. I also wanted grad school, and travel, and more Sunday afternoons spent leisurely in bed with my H. It was a tough choice! In the end, we chose kids. But I'm sure we would have remained happy without. I see it a lot like my desire to go to grad school, and pursue a certain career that I always say "in an alternate life" I would have pursued. I made a choice between what were, for me, two very attractive options. It isn't that I didn't WANT to experience grad school--I did, very much. Happiness is wanting what you have, not having what you want. I'm sure your husband would have loved you no matter what but you probably would have felt your life was empty without children. You wanted kids and that's a good way to be. You see how it affected your life and I'm sure you have zero regrets. Maybe had you been ambiguous, you would have regretted having them in the end.
I love Cicero Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 Dogs are cheap in comparison to children. I read about some insane statistic that one child from birth to 18 cost it's parents $225,000+. That's only ONE KID!! Imagine having 4 or 5 kids? And it's not all about money either. Children are a huge responsibility. If you're not up to it, then don't have kids. I'm not up to it, I can tell you that. And I get more joy out of animals then kids. Period. They might be cheap comparatively, but an animal companion is not the same as a human child. You can love an animal companion as much as your own offspring; you can raise it from birth and it will be around almost as long as that child you didn't raise before sending him out into the world at 18. I agree: Children are infinitely more expensive and more difficult to rear. It's not a one-way conversation. They talk back, they don't always do what you ask. A visit to any mall or food market where a parent is trying to "discipline" an ill-behaved, mouthy kid knows that. Parenting requires an emotional maturity and selflessness that having an animal companion doesn't need. Unfortunately however, way too many parents have no conception of the requirements to be a good parent; the old joke is that if they did, no one would ever have kids, so maybe ignorance is God's little joke, his way of keeping us solvent as a species? Still it's sad that there are way too many parents that have no clue how to parent a child. I'm childless and thinking I'm too old now at 40 to have my own. But then my mother had her last at 47, so who knows? What I do know is that as the years have passed I've come to miss (regret?) what I didn't do. If I had a kid now I'd want to teach it how to be a whole person; and to have fun: Show him or her how to surf, how to ski or snow board, how to make my Grandmother's apple cake... Mostly, I'd want to show it how, to the best of my ability, to be a good human. From the posts here I'm guessing that most of you who think you know exactly what you want/don't want are in your mid 20s to early 30s. Well, you have time to learn what the truth is; time is a teacher, afterall. It passes quickly. Unfortunately of those decisions that are ultimately made FOR us...you'll have ample time for regret.
Emilia Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 Do you understand what I'm saying? Kids and animals are two different beasts. Animals are MUCH easier to care for. I love dogs but I would never have them living inside my house, only outside. They would be working dogs. That doesn't mean I would keep my kids in a kennel jeeez.
ThsAmericanLife Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 It is called an open mind. This black and white mentally is not always healthy. There is a reason why GYN docs are reluctant to sterilize young women with no kids. LATER ON THEY CHANGE THEIR MIND! but for some odd reason, men with no children have no problems getting a vasectomy. Hmm... me thinks it is a carry over of deeply held sexist beliefs that imply that women are muddle-headed beings who can't possibly make important life choices for herself... and the financial incentive of doctors who need women to keep beating a path to their doors for pharmaceutical birth control. I recall with some amusement how the medical industry kept pushing the start date of regular mammograms earlier and earlier. At one time, they'd pushed it down to 40.... until they realized they had more false positives and unnecessary surgeries... and were pissing women off and creating more risk..not less. They since pushed it back up to 50.
ShannonMI Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 They might be cheap comparatively, but an animal companion is not the same as a human child. You can love an animal companion as much as your own offspring; you can raise it from birth and it will be around almost as long as that child you didn't raise before sending him out into the world at 18. I agree: Children are infinitely more expensive and more difficult to rear. It's not a one-way conversation. They talk back, they don't always do what you ask. A visit to any mall or food market where a parent is trying to "discipline" an ill-behaved, mouthy kid knows that. Parenting requires an emotional maturity and selflessness that having an animal companion doesn't need. Unfortunately however, way too many parents have no conception of the requirements to be a good parent; the old joke is that if they did, no one would ever have kids, so maybe ignorance is God's little joke, his way of keeping us solvent as a species? Still it's sad that there are way too many parents that have no clue how to parent a child. I'm childless and thinking I'm too old now at 40 to have my own. But then my mother had her last at 47, so who knows? What I do know is that as the years have passed I've come to miss (regret?) what I didn't do. If I had a kid now I'd want to teach it how to be a whole person; and to have fun: Show him or her how to surf, how to ski or snow board, how to make my Grandmother's apple cake... Mostly, I'd want to show it how, to the best of my ability, to be a good human. From the posts here I'm guessing that most of you who think you know exactly what you want/don't want are in your mid 20s to early 30s. Well, you have time to learn what the truth is; time is a teacher, afterall. It passes quickly. Unfortunately of those decisions that are ultimately made FOR us...you'll have ample time for regret. Yeah one trip to Walmart and my eggs wilt. A trip to that store is the best form of birth control EVER:laugh:
ThsAmericanLife Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 They might be cheap comparatively, but an animal companion is not the same as a human child. You can love an animal companion as much as your own offspring; you can raise it from birth and it will be around almost as long as that child you didn't raise before sending him out into the world at 18. I agree: Children are infinitely more expensive and more difficult to rear. It's not a one-way conversation. They talk back, they don't always do what you ask. A visit to any mall or food market where a parent is trying to "discipline" an ill-behaved, mouthy kid knows that. Parenting requires an emotional maturity and selflessness that having an animal companion doesn't need. Unfortunately however, way too many parents have no conception of the requirements to be a good parent; the old joke is that if they did, no one would ever have kids, so maybe ignorance is God's little joke, his way of keeping us solvent as a species? Still it's sad that there are way too many parents that have no clue how to parent a child. I'm childless and thinking I'm too old now at 40 to have my own. But then my mother had her last at 47, so who knows? What I do know is that as the years have passed I've come to miss (regret?) what I didn't do. If I had a kid now I'd want to teach it how to be a whole person; and to have fun: Show him or her how to surf, how to ski or snow board, how to make my Grandmother's apple cake... Mostly, I'd want to show it how, to the best of my ability, to be a good human. From the posts here I'm guessing that most of you who think you know exactly what you want/don't want are in your mid 20s to early 30s. Well, you have time to learn what the truth is; time is a teacher, afterall. It passes quickly. Unfortunately of those decisions that are ultimately made FOR us...you'll have ample time for regret. Not too old to adopt or be a foster parent...
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