Emilia Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 I just see that smarter women struggle and often only have one child - that would never have been the path for me. If I had ended up having kids I would have had at least two for sure, having one is just unfair and bad parenting. A lot of the happy mums that stay at home have little ambition, leave major decisions to their husbands and often not at all that bright. Horses for courses as they say
Pierre Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 I just see that smarter women struggle and often only have one child - that would never have been the path for me. If I had ended up having kids I would have had at least two for sure, having one is just unfair and bad parenting. A lot of the happy mums that stay at home have little ambition, leave major decisions to their husbands and often not at all that bright. Horses for courses as they say At the end of the day we rationalize where we are in life. We have different taste.
Emilia Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 At the end of the day we rationalize where we are in life. We have different taste. I have consistently felt the same way since I was 18 which was 21 years ago. I do believe you have to accept a certain type of lifestyle when you are a mother. I also believe that as a man you don't have to. The last guy I dated asked me why I didn't want kids and I said I didn't want to make the sacrifices required. I then asked him why he wanted kids and he said - semi jokingly - that it was that woman that was required to make the sacrifices, not him. Like I said, if someone doesn't have any ambitions and wants to be provided for, that's fine too.
ThsAmericanLife Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 I just see that smarter women struggle and often only have one child - that would never have been the path for me. If I had ended up having kids I would have had at least two for sure, having one is just unfair and bad parenting. A lot of the happy mums that stay at home have little ambition, leave major decisions to their husbands and often not at all that bright. Horses for courses as they say Me too. It was two or none for me.
thatone Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 As radical as this sounds... I actually love children. The messiness, the chaos... that never bothered me. What bothered me first was yes, the cost. I'm only the second person in my entire family to get a college education. I put myself through school... debt free thank you. When I graduated from high school, it was still possible and likely that you would lose your job if you got pregnant. You certainly were going nowhere in your career. I'm not talking about mindless devotion to a career. I'm talking basic survival here. What bothered me second was the either/or decision only women are expected to make. I would have gone insane as a stay-at-home mom focusing all of my life around raising children. My little brain needs more than that... I also hated the idea of a man 'having it all' (ie a career and a family) at my expense. Still do. If he isn't willing to share the burden of parenting 50/50 (or at times 80/20)... and prove that in advance.. he's not getting access to my womb. This is why my ex-H and I never had kids. I got my tubes tied during my marriage to him to solidify that decision. Not on his request. Mine. So, I was before my time apparently... or was raised in the wrong country. My Scandinavian ancestors in the motherland figured it out decades ago. Smart women who are interested in raising children want both... just like smart men want both. Scandinavian countries have a social network that makes that possible. Until the US does that, they can guarantee that it is mostly stupid people who do the majority of reproducing. it's a lot more complicated than 'stupid'. it's naive, and our society preys on that. our businesses prey on people naive enough to work hard for little pay, by giving them the carrot of status and false opportunity. our religions prey on people who lack the ability to function in our society by giving them a sense of belonging in exchange for conformity to a set of ridiculous ideals. our government preys on people's fears to defraud them of the money they pay in taxes and the power they give away at the voting booth. and when it's 'ok' that our media, governments, and social circles manipulate people, then the people who make up those social circles naturally think it's 'ok' to manipulate their friends and relatives too. it becomes the default behavior.
Emilia Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 it's a lot more complicated than 'stupid'. it's naive, and our society preys on that. our businesses prey on people naive enough to work hard for little pay, by giving them the carrot of status and false opportunity. our religions prey on people who lack the ability to function in our society by giving them a sense of belonging in exchange for conformity to a set of ridiculous ideals. our government preys on people's fears to defraud them of the money they pay in taxes and the power they give away at the voting booth. and when it's 'ok' that our media, governments, and social circles manipulate people, then the people who make up those social circles naturally think it's 'ok' to manipulate their friends and relatives too. it becomes the default behavior. I don't know if you can apply this to parenting but you can apply it to a lot of things in society. Unfortunately another major one is the manipulation of very young men to join the armed forces, that's the least forgivable in my book. But I digress, apologies.
ThsAmericanLife Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 it's a lot more complicated than 'stupid'. it's naive, and our society preys on that. our businesses prey on people naive enough to work hard for little pay, by giving them the carrot of status and false opportunity. our religions prey on people who lack the ability to function in our society by giving them a sense of belonging in exchange for conformity to a set of ridiculous ideals. our government preys on people's fears to defraud them of the money they pay in taxes and the power they give away at the voting booth. and when it's 'ok' that our media, governments, and social circles manipulate people, then the people who make up those social circles naturally think it's 'ok' to manipulate their friends and relatives too. it becomes the default behavior. Couldn't agree more. Very insightful post.
xxoo Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 Until the US does that, they can guarantee that it is mostly stupid people who do the majority of reproducing. My H and I were together a decade before having our first, and considered the DINK lifestyle for the long term. My dad made the above argument to me, in effort to persuade us to have kids. He said our country needs children raised by smart, responsible parents, because the stupid and irresponsible will ALWAYS reproduce
Pierre Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 Many folks do not like the children of other people; I am one of them. However, there is something magical about falling deeply love and blending your genes with the one you love to create life. That is something that cannot be described or imagined. If you find nirvana with a very special person you may wonder about what it would be like to have a child together. This seals the deal forever (even if there is a break up). It is the concept of creating something new and blending genes. It is much more satisfying than having a dog. I wish I could explain how special this is, but in reality it cannot be described. I understand that some folks do not want to make a sacrifice. I also accept that vanity to a greater or lesser degree is an issue.
Emilia Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 Actually I never really thought about how pregnancy would ruin my body, probably because I never had the urge so didn't get into the the nitty gritty of it in my mind. Of course with hindsight, I'm glad my body isn't ruined. I love it when people tell you it takes a special person to have kids with, if I had a penny for every time that was mentioned, I would be a millionairess by now The truth is those that want kids LOOK for a suitable mate. A very good friend of mine always knew she wanted children. She lives in a small town in New Zealand and she found a man she loved very much and stayed with him even after he cheated on her because she knew her chances of having kids were the highest with him. There aren't many options where she lives. As far as I can tell that has worked out for her very well and they are a a happy family.
xxoo Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 I love it when people tell you it takes a special person to have kids with, if I had a penny for every time that was mentioned, I would be a millionairess by now The truth is those that want kids LOOK for a suitable mate. I don't think that is always the case. What Pierre is saying does happen. Sometimes people don't have a burning desire to have kids until they meet someone special--and then want to start mixing the genetic material. But Pierre--I have a bone to pick on the point of vanity. In many ways, having a biological child is the ultimate act of vanity--creating a mini-person in your own image! (and I say that as a proud parent of BEAUTIFUL children )
Emilia Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 But Pierre--I have a bone to pick on the point of vanity. In many ways, having a biological child is the ultimate act of vanity--creating a mini-person in your own image! (and I say that as a proud parent of BEAUTIFUL children ) That's also true. Hence the expression 'mini me' which a lot of proud parents use
thatone Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 I don't know if you can apply this to parenting but you can apply it to a lot of things in society. Unfortunately another major one is the manipulation of very young men to join the armed forces, that's the least forgivable in my book. But I digress, apologies. i should have expanded that a bit further. parents raise their kids with the modern notion of 'self esteem' which is a way for those parents in many cases to transfer their regrets into false hope for the kids. "sure, you can be an astronaut and a ballerina and a horse trainer dear, do whatever you want!" and then those kids grow up to get pressure from the same parents to get married and provide them with grandchildren, which is the antithesis of everything they were told when they were growing up. so then they get married and have children to give themselves purpose. and make the same mistakes their parents did.....
Pierre Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 But Pierre--I have a bone to pick on the point of vanity. In many ways, having a biological child is the ultimate act of vanity--creating a mini-person in your own image! (and I say that as a proud parent of BEAUTIFUL children ) Quite true!!!!!!!!:laugh:
Pierre Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 That's also true. Hence the expression 'mini me' which a lot of proud parents use It is sometimes difficult not to be vain. And hoping that the kids look like us is vanity. Maybe those that do not want kids feel unworthy.
ThsAmericanLife Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 At the end of the day we rationalize where we are in life. We have different taste. Yes, intelligence in women you have no interest in producing actual children with is probably very highly overrated. What a pain in the arse we are! For awhile I was kind of mystified why the tattoo thing bothered you so much. I actually don't know too many women in my social circle who have them (all professional woman... most of them with children). Now I get it... This is a demographic anomaly. Women like me (accomplished, reasonably good looking, with 'average' nurturing skills) exist in a different social strata... The one that doesn't get tattoos. The women you are attracted to.. perhaps not terribly bright or ambitious, but nurturing and vain enough to tend to their bodies probably occupy the social strata where tattoos are accepted or common. That would be my observation of most men with tattoos as well (large ones at least)... so its not a gender thing. It's a class thing. I get it now... Thank you for being a good sport, Pierre. I really do like you... even if we don't agree on mens/womens roles. You've been an interesting 'subject' for this scientist...
Emilia Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 i should have expanded that a bit further. parents raise their kids with the modern notion of 'self esteem' which is a way for those parents in many cases to transfer their regrets into false hope for the kids. "sure, you can be an astronaut and a ballerina and a horse trainer dear, do whatever you want!" and then those kids grow up to get pressure from the same parents to get married and provide them with grandchildren, which is the antithesis of everything they were told when they were growing up. so then they get married and have children to give themselves purpose. and make the same mistakes their parents did..... Very true. It was exactly the same way in my family, in fact I had to leave my country at the age of 20 to escape my parents' (especially my mother's) legacy and pressure. I didn't (maybe still don't, have to think about it) see it as a society-wide pressure though because there are a lot of healthy and warm families out there who appear to be able to balance expectations from parents. I come from a poor family and my sister and I are the first ones that went to university, I think in more middle class families it isn't about hope (false or otherwise) because expensive education allows children to go as far as they want. It isn't about their parents' aspirations anymore because in the West a lot of people can pretty much do what they want.
ThsAmericanLife Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 i should have expanded that a bit further. parents raise their kids with the modern notion of 'self esteem' which is a way for those parents in many cases to transfer their regrets into false hope for the kids. "sure, you can be an astronaut and a ballerina and a horse trainer dear, do whatever you want!" and then those kids grow up to get pressure from the same parents to get married and provide them with grandchildren, which is the antithesis of everything they were told when they were growing up. so then they get married and have children to give themselves purpose. and make the same mistakes their parents did..... Those parents are thinking.... "get out of the house and get a damned job!!" Then when you have a job and are doing well (the pressure is off of them), they start thinking how much fun it would be to be a grandparent. Those selfish parents!!!
Emilia Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 It is sometimes difficult not to be vain. And hoping that the kids look like us is vanity. Maybe those that do not want kids feel unworthy. Of having kids? I don't think so. I live near council estates and see mothers who live on benefits and are tattooed up to their eyeballs pushing prams. I don't think I'm less worthy than they are. I just think they have nothing else to do (though obviously don't brush everyone with the same brush).
Pierre Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 Yes, intelligence in women you have no interest in producing actual children with is probably very highly overrated. What a pain in the arse we are! For awhile I was kind of mystified why the tattoo thing bothered you so much. I actually don't know too many women in my social circle who have them (all professional woman... most of them with children). Now I get it... This is a demographic anomaly. Women like me (accomplished, reasonably good looking, with 'average' nurturing skills) exist in a different social strata... The one that doesn't get tattoos. The women you are attracted to.. perhaps not terribly bright or ambitious, but nurturing and vain enough to tend to their bodies probably occupy the social strata where tattoos are accepted or common. That would be my observation of most men with tattoos as well (large ones at least)... so its not a gender thing. It's a class thing. I get it now... Thank you for being a good sport, Pierre. I really do like you... even if we don't agree on mens/womens roles. You've been an interesting 'subject' for this scientist... I see beauty in well educated women, but I also can admire a less intelligent woman with other special attributes. The tattoos get to me, but i am not sure how they relate to reproduction.
ShannonMI Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 With all my respect to you and posters that do not want children: Sometimes it is a matter of taste and perspective. I don't think a woman is attractive if she only thinks about money and her physical appearance. I am not into obese women or women that do not take care of themselves. You will find plenty women like that whether they had kids or not. It is all about genes and if a female has the right genes she will look great after having 2-3 kids. If the woman has bad genes avoiding kids will not help much. I like a woman that has motherly instincts. IMHO, that is extremely sexy and not all moms look like slobs. I am simply turned off by the vanity, it is that simple. Furthermore, at some point DINKS get tired of the lifestyle and often yearn for a child when the dog does not do the trick anymore. It's about genes and it's about working out and eating right as well. I'm blessed with good genes thank the Lord. I don't work out, I just eat well and stay pretty slim and trim. I also have few wrinkles. I'm 32 and look about 23. At least that's what people tell me. For me not having children is MORE about the responsibility of raising a child. It's a hard job and not everyone is cut out for it. It's not so much about my body. Women are sexy weather they want children or not. You, personally think women that want children or have children are sexier. Not everyone feels that way though. I'm glad because I hope to someday find a man that is content with just me and a couple of dogs. According to this thread there are definitely some out there.
Emilia Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 Those parents are thinking.... "get out of the house and get a damned job!!" Then when you have a job and are doing well (the pressure is off of them), they start thinking how much fun it would be to be a grandparent. Those selfish parents!!! You are describing my family
ShannonMI Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 Yes, intelligence in women you have no interest in producing actual children with is probably very highly overrated. What a pain in the arse we are! For awhile I was kind of mystified why the tattoo thing bothered you so much. I actually don't know too many women in my social circle who have them (all professional woman... most of them with children). Now I get it... This is a demographic anomaly. Women like me (accomplished, reasonably good looking, with 'average' nurturing skills) exist in a different social strata... The one that doesn't get tattoos. The women you are attracted to.. perhaps not terribly bright or ambitious, but nurturing and vain enough to tend to their bodies probably occupy the social strata where tattoos are accepted or common. That would be my observation of most men with tattoos as well (large ones at least)... so its not a gender thing. It's a class thing. I get it now... Thank you for being a good sport, Pierre. I really do like you... even if we don't agree on mens/womens roles. You've been an interesting 'subject' for this scientist... I have no tattoos and I will remain without tattoos for the rest of my life. I do not like them on women for some reason. On men, it's a different story. I do have a nose piercing and a belly piercing and that's good enough for me. Tattoos aren't my thing.
Pierre Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 I hope to someday find a man that is content with just me and a couple of dogs. According to this thread there are definitely some out there. You want to find a mate. Do you realize that by not wanting kids you are excluding a huge number of very good men? Waht will you do if you run into Mr. Perfect, but he wants a child with you? Despite advocating children i could easily change my mind if I was with a wonderful woman that did not want children. I think the rigidity of your posture is not wise. Why not have an open mind?
Emilia Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 I don't think anyone can truly have an open mind. You either want kids or you don't. If you are ambiguous the odds are you will regret your final decision one way or another. I have seen it so many times, parents who thought they were ought to have kids and realised they had no knack for it or no interest in parenting after all. At least those of us that say no are honest.
Recommended Posts