xxoo Posted November 6, 2011 Posted November 6, 2011 Why are celebrities bad examples? Because they got cosmetic surgery after having children? They are just responding to the definition of 'fit and attractive' and 'sexy' shape you are describing. The stakes are even higher for them because that is how they make a living. So I don't begrudge them. You don't seem to understand what I mean by "sexy". Oh well. I think Carhill and Pierre get it On topic, again, I agree that only couples who are prepared to make huge sacrifices for kids should have kids! I'm glad I have mine, but I will be the first to say it is a tremendous amt of work and sacrifice.
grkBoy Posted November 6, 2011 Posted November 6, 2011 Well nowadays children graduate from college and move back home for God knows how long. With the economy in the tank, they may never move out. I know. Back in the post 9/11 economy I ended up "boomeranging" back home when I couldn't find decent-paying work for several years. I'm thankful my parents pushed me to come home and regroup. Now I'm strong in my career. What astounded me was not only how many peers looked down on me (early 30something living at home), but my GF at the time dumped me (she never moved out of her home until she married), and how many other women looked down on me when many of those very same women lived at home or off a boyfriend's place (rent-free, unless you could sex as the "payment"). I grew up here in the US, but was raised in a more European thinking where many youth stay home until they get married. I understand parents and society not wanting adult-aged "children" living at home mooching, but I also roll my eyes at the hypocrisy at how "family valued" the US claims to be, when it's the opposite. Like someone said, all those now who loathe going home for the holidays can wonder later in life when their own kids won't come visit them.
FitChick Posted November 6, 2011 Posted November 6, 2011 The Madonna and Child image has been idealized in art throughout history. "Go forth and multiply" was the command from all religions. In those days, both mothers and children died in childbirth or soon after, and people were needed to work the fields so breeding made sense. There was nothing else a woman could do even if she wanted to. The truth about one of society's biggest secrets -- what happens to a woman's body after pregnancy. Groundbreaking website. No Photoshopped Vanity Fair cover photos. I think the bigger tragedy is not women being sterilized and then changing their mind; it's women who have kids and then realize they made a big mistake.
ThsAmericanLife Posted November 6, 2011 Posted November 6, 2011 You don't seem to understand what I mean by "sexy". Oh well. I think Carhill and Pierre get it On topic, again, I agree that only couples who are prepared to make huge sacrifices for kids should have kids! I'm glad I have mine, but I will be the first to say it is a tremendous amt of work and sacrifice. Carhill yes. Pierre no. ...and you're right. I don't understand what you mean by 'sexy'. I gave a couple of examples of body issues that most men don't tend to find sexy... but rather tolerate in the women who gave them children. Maybe some find it sexy. Who knows. Carhill specifically said he doesn't analyze women's bodies to that detail, and I believe him. The others...meh... not so much. My observation is that most women who are in the dating pool and also moms are obliged to do their best to look like they haven't had children... either through exercise, good genes, or surgical means... I really don't believe most men who are NOT the fathers of these women's children will accept a woman who has a mother's body. If you gave birth and don't look like you gave birth, more power to ya. Noone is the wiser and noone cares. However, given the other options for having a family and the high divorce rate, I think that most women would be smart to insist their baby daddies pony up for the post-baby tummy tuck and boob lift as part of the package. Up front. In a savings account. Of course, this only applies to men who require being bio dad. Most decent guys who really want to be a father for the sake of being a father... and don't have some macho need to spread his 'seed'... are perfectly happy adopting. So there should be no problems either way. He gets his bio kid, she avoids looking like african bush-woman. Win-win.
ThsAmericanLife Posted November 6, 2011 Posted November 6, 2011 The Madonna and Child image has been idealized in art throughout history. "Go forth and multiply" was the command from all religions. In those days, both mothers and children died in childbirth or soon after, and people were needed to work the fields so breeding made sense. There was nothing else a woman could do even if she wanted to. The truth about one of society's biggest secrets -- what happens to a woman's body after pregnancy. Groundbreaking website. No Photoshopped Vanity Fair cover photos. I think the bigger tragedy is not women being sterilized and then changing their mind; it's women who have kids and then realize they made a big mistake. Thanks for posting that. The first few pics look more like the bodies of my friends and relatives. The other woman with the twins? You can't tell she had kids. No offense... I think her posting on that particular site is kind of rude. This isn't about her bragging how perfect her body is after having kids. It's about people seeing real bodies. So, yea, I get it. But I'm also the ultimate pragmatist. get that cosmetic surgery $$ up front in case you don't end up looking like lady #2. Couldn't hurt, right? That's the least bio dad can do for the woman who had his kids...
OnyxSnowfall Posted November 6, 2011 Posted November 6, 2011 I really don't believe most men who are NOT the fathers of these women's children will accept a woman who has a mother's body. If you gave birth and don't look like you gave birth, more power to ya. Noone is the wiser and noone cares. I don't know. I have quite a bit of stretch marks. My breasts don't sag *yet*, but I have stretch marks on those too. And although I like to exercise and keep in shape, I have a bit of loose skin around the lower abdomen that would indeed require surgery to remove (I would rather use extra money to travel ). But even when it's all visible to the public it doesn't deter, at least a significant portion, of men, shrug. My lover has definitely not minded it either. But he's a pretty golden man, and is very good with my children (despite them having a different biological father), as well. Heh.
ThsAmericanLife Posted November 6, 2011 Posted November 6, 2011 I don't know. I have quite a bit of stretch marks. My breasts don't sag *yet*, but I have stretch marks on those too. And although I like to exercise and keep in shape, I have a bit of loose skin around the lower abdomen that would indeed require surgery to remove (I would rather use extra money to travel ). But even when it's all visible to the public it doesn't deter, at least a significant portion, of men, shrug. My lover has definitely not minded it either. But he's a pretty golden man, and is very good with my children (despite them having a different biological father), as well. Heh. No offense... most women don't look like you, Onyx, and you know it. You have a very pretty face in addition to having a nice shape. I can imagine a few stretch marks wouldn't deter most men from hitting on YOU.... just as I can imagine most men being ok with lady #2 in the link FitChick posted (the one with twins). Flat stomach and huge boobs... in a bikini top though. Not showing what those boobs look like out of the bikini top. They could be down to her waist. Lady #1? with the belly? What about the one with the deflated boobs? I'm not trying to pick on these women. They are wonderful and courageous for posting there, and I admire their message and spirit. THEY are the norm Onyx. Not you and the lady with twins. With all due respect.
Woggle Posted November 6, 2011 Posted November 6, 2011 Like I said before men are not as shallow as women think. We really aren't. I have seen many women who some would not call attractive in public holding hands with their men.
Eliana Posted November 6, 2011 Posted November 6, 2011 I could probably be easily persuated to follow the DINK lifestyle, but I would demand a man at least as successful as I am, and he'd have to be okay with being a big spender. Saving money would start seeming pointless if we don't have kids to spend on IMO. I do love kids, and I don't get enough of pampering my nephews but thinking about how a woman's life changes on the first months of her new born baby life makes my skin crawl. You actually have to put all your activities, social life, career, etc on hold so you can be a stay at home person that spends the day breastfeeding, changing nappies, sleeping during the day, watching soaps and showing pictures of your baby to people who don't give a damn about it. I'm very sorry but I can't do that. And I can't separate the image of a new mother from a stressed out woman on a tracking suit with floppy hair and eyebags. I don't want to be that person. Really, I don't. I wish babies were born as 4 years old.
xxoo Posted November 6, 2011 Posted November 6, 2011 The truth about one of society's biggest secrets -- what happens to a woman's body after pregnancy. Groundbreaking website. No Photoshopped Vanity Fair cover photos. . I love that site! No offense... most women don't look like you, Onyx, and you know it. You have a very pretty face in addition to having a nice shape. I can imagine a few stretch marks wouldn't deter most men from hitting on YOU.... just as I can imagine most men being ok with lady #2 in the link FitChick posted (the one with twins). Flat stomach and huge boobs... in a bikini top though. Not showing what those boobs look like out of the bikini top. They could be down to her waist. Lady #1? with the belly? What about the one with the deflated boobs? I'm not trying to pick on these women. They are wonderful and courageous for posting there, and I admire their message and spirit. THEY are the norm Onyx. Not you and the lady with twins. With all due respect. I seriously do not know what women you are looking at They all look beautiful to me. You really seem terribly judgmental of women's bodies. Who CARES if her boobs droop when she takes off her bikini? Mine do! But I still turn heads like crazy in my string bikini, lol! Even with my stretch marks Like I said before men are not as shallow as women think. We really aren't. I believe you, Wog. The men see "gorgeous woman" and the women see "saggy boobs, stretch marks, fat thighs, etc".
OnyxSnowfall Posted November 6, 2011 Posted November 6, 2011 (edited) No offense... most women don't look like you, Onyx, and you know it. You have a very pretty face in addition to having a nice shape. I can imagine a few stretch marks wouldn't deter most men from hitting on YOU.... just as I can imagine most men being ok with lady #2 in the link FitChick posted (the one with twins). Flat stomach and huge boobs... in a bikini top though. Not showing what those boobs look like out of the bikini top. They could be down to her waist. Lady #1? with the belly? What about the one with the deflated boobs? I'm not trying to pick on these women. They are wonderful and courageous for posting there, and I admire their message and spirit. THEY are the norm Onyx. Not you and the lady with twins. With all due respect. Mmm, some are (in my eyes) more attractive than others. I can't say I find all them "beautiful" or rather, potentially "beautiful" in person. But I still think a lot of guys would probably bed any of them (and or be open to being with them, assuming they have other merits that they're interested in). Also, you do have a point about the boobs taking a dive without any kind of support too (i.e, it could be misleading to the reality). Edited November 6, 2011 by OnyxSnowfall
Wolf18 Posted November 6, 2011 Posted November 6, 2011 How many kids do you have Onyx? I always wondered why such a girl would date guys she claims aren't very attractive and claims not to care about looks; now I know the answer.
OnyxSnowfall Posted November 6, 2011 Posted November 6, 2011 How many kids do you have Onyx? I always wondered why such a girl would date guys she claims aren't very attractive and claims not to care about looks; now I know the answer. I have 2 boys. And that's not the answer LOL - I've had enough opportunities from "wealthy and successful" men (and by golly, would you believe it, some were quite symmetrical too!) offering to "take me" AND my boys in. Such men have tried giving gifts to me for them without even meeting them etc too heh. So what'evs Wolfy Keep pondering
xxoo Posted November 6, 2011 Posted November 6, 2011 Mmm, some are (in my eyes) more attractive than others. I can't say I find all them "beautiful" or rather, potentially "beautiful" in person. I'm generous with "beautiful" It doesn't mean I find them equally attractive, but I think a man who is attracted to them with clothes on would find great beauty in them with clothes off. This is something my husband and some male friends have finally convinced me about. If they are attracted to a woman, and are lucky enough to get her naked, they aren't looking for flaws! They are thrilled to see her naked. Now if only women could be as easy to please...
laotzu Posted November 6, 2011 Posted November 6, 2011 I've also had difficulty finding a woman who doesn't want children, a trait that was really desirable in my ex-fiance. As TAL mentioned, nursing homes are filled with the elderly whose children don't visit them or provide support for them - so I don't buy that argument. While I actually love children, I simply don't have the desire to have one of my own. I'd love to find a single, attractive, career oriented girl to make a lot of money with and travel around the world.
ThsAmericanLife Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 I love that site! I seriously do not know what women you are looking at They all look beautiful to me. You really seem terribly judgmental of women's bodies. Who CARES if her boobs droop when she takes off her bikini? Mine do! But I still turn heads like crazy in my string bikini, lol! Even with my stretch marks I believe you, Wog. The men see "gorgeous woman" and the women see "saggy boobs, stretch marks, fat thighs, etc". I love your optimism... but the reason why the site FitChick referenced is posted is because the reverse is true. They are actively trying to counteract societal views of women's bodies. It is not me passing this judgement...I'm not having sex with them or trying to date them. ... and I disagree with Woggle. Most men ARE that shallow... but they sometimes overcome that 'shallowness' if/when they care for the woman. Doesn't stop them from wanting (and for some... going after) the women who don't have bodies altered by child bearing. I do blame our media saturated culture, porn, and yes... even online dating sites for that phenomenon. Skews what is viewed as 'normal'. But enough of that... Women who really want to give birth will of course, do so... no matter how it makes their bodies look. The ones who don't, won't. No big deal.
Pierre Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 I could probably be easily persuated to follow the DINK lifestyle, but I would demand a man at least as successful as I am, and he'd have to be okay with being a big spender. Saving money would start seeming pointless if we don't have kids to spend on IMO. I do love kids, and I don't get enough of pampering my nephews but thinking about how a woman's life changes on the first months of her new born baby life makes my skin crawl. You actually have to put all your activities, social life, career, etc on hold so you can be a stay at home person that spends the day breastfeeding, changing nappies, sleeping during the day, watching soaps and showing pictures of your baby to people who don't give a damn about it. I'm very sorry but I can't do that. And I can't separate the image of a new mother from a stressed out woman on a tracking suit with floppy hair and eyebags. I don't want to be that person. Really, I don't. I wish babies were born as 4 years old. With all my respect to you and posters that do not want children: Sometimes it is a matter of taste and perspective. I don't think a woman is attractive if she only thinks about money and her physical appearance. I am not into obese women or women that do not take care of themselves. You will find plenty women like that whether they had kids or not. It is all about genes and if a female has the right genes she will look great after having 2-3 kids. If the woman has bad genes avoiding kids will not help much. I like a woman that has motherly instincts. IMHO, that is extremely sexy and not all moms look like slobs. I am simply turned off by the vanity, it is that simple. Furthermore, at some point DINKS get tired of the lifestyle and often yearn for a child when the dog does not do the trick anymore.
laotzu Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 I love your optimism... but the reason why the site FitChick referenced is posted is because the reverse is true. They are actively trying to counteract societal views of women's bodies. It is not me passing this judgement...I'm not having sex with them or trying to date them. ... and I disagree with Woggle. Most men ARE that shallow... but they sometimes overcome that 'shallowness' if/when they care for the woman. Doesn't stop them from wanting (and for some... going after) the women who don't have bodies altered by child bearing. I do blame our media saturated culture, porn, and yes... even online dating sites for that phenomenon. Skews what is viewed as 'normal'. But enough of that... Women who really want to give birth will of course, do so... no matter how it makes their bodies look. The ones who don't, won't. No big deal. Nine times out of ten, you're super awesome.
ThsAmericanLife Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 With all my respect to you and posters that do not want children: Sometimes it is a matter of taste and perspective. I don't think a woman is attractive if she only thinks about money and her physical appearance. That's right... these things are supposed to drop into our laps like magic (ie money and good looks). Real 'ladies' don't think or talk about these things... Real ladies are magically gifted with a trust-fund or an ex-husband's fortune (preferably a dead ex husband). Real ladies don't actually have to work for any of these things... and god forbid, trouble your spirit with (ahem) 'work' talk and such... Of course, we should all have naturally beautiful hair that never needs dying, a naturally beautiful face graced ever so gently by the slightest hint of makeup, and body seemingly untouched by the ravages of time or children... ready to serve. This is a wonderful fantasy, Pierre. Truly. If only we were all so blessed. I admire your optimism too. I like a woman that has motherly instincts. IMHO, that is extremely sexy and not all moms look like slobs. Haven't answered my question yet, but that is ok. I can read between the lines. I am simply turned off by the vanity, it is that simple. I kind of doubt that. I suspect that you just don't want us to talk about it... All that work that keeps us looking good for you, I mean. We are supposed to perform like good little ballerinas. All the effort hidden behind the smiles... done behind the scenes. Or, women are some kind of hot-house flower... beautiful for a moment...oozing grace and love to massage your sore feet after a long day at the office... until she gets her first gray hair or wrinkle, that is. Uh huh.
Pierre Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 That's right... these things are supposed to drop into our laps like magic (ie money and good looks). Real 'ladies' don't think or talk about these things... Real ladies are magically gifted with a trust-fund or an ex-husband's fortune (preferably a dead ex husband). Real ladies don't actually have to work for any of these things... and god forbid, trouble your spirit with (ahem) 'work' talk and such... Of course, we should all have naturally beautiful hair that never needs dying, a naturally beautiful face graced ever so gently by the slightest hint of makeup, and body seemingly untouched by the ravages of time or children... ready to serve. This is a wonderful fantasy, Pierre. Truly. If only we were all so blessed. I admire your optimism too. Haven't answered my question yet, but that is ok. I can read between the lines. I kind of doubt that. I suspect that you just don't want us to talk about it... All that work that keeps us looking good for you, I mean. We are supposed to perform like good little ballerinas. All the effort hidden behind the smiles... done behind the scenes. Or, women are some kind of hot-house flower... beautiful for a moment...oozing grace and love to massage your sore feet after a long day at the office... until she gets her first gray hair or wrinkle, that is. Uh huh. Maybe you are more realistic and down to earth. However, if you read the posts of the other DINKs in the thread they sound materialistic and vain. I am not imagining things. Moms can work out at the gym as much as any other woman. And if she has a few stretch marks that you can only see when she is naked that is no big deal. There is likely an evolutionary reason why some men may like a maternal woman. We are here to spread seed and someone that does a good job with the seed is desirable. As I said this is how we were programmed and these things are automatic.
thatone Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 Maybe you are more realistic and down to earth. However, if you read the posts of the other DINKs in the thread they sound materialistic and vain. I am not imagining things. Moms can work out at the gym as much as any other woman. And if she has a few stretch marks that you can only see when she is naked that is no big deal. There is likely an evolutionary reason why some men may like a maternal woman. We are here to spread seed and someone that does a good job with the seed is desirable. As I said this is how we were programmed and these things are automatic. i think that's a bit of a stretch. everyone is materialistic. otherwise we'd all work at mcd's and live in 7th floor walk up 1 bedroom apartments. everyone is vain to an extent as well. otherwise we'd all eat at mcd's and weigh 400 pounds. you're completely disregarding these women being honest with the fact that they DO NOT WANT to deal with a baby. and i completely get that, i don't either. i like silence when i wake up in the morning. i hate the sight of toys. i live in a historic house with some irreplaceable antiques and architectural details. if i saw a kid throw a plastic thing-a-majig at one of them and break it i would struggle not to kill the little heathen. none of that is abnormal.
Wolf18 Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 i think that's a bit of a stretch. everyone is materialistic. otherwise we'd all work at mcd's and live in 7th floor walk up 1 bedroom apartments. everyone is vain to an extent as well. otherwise we'd all eat at mcd's and weigh 400 pounds. you're completely disregarding these women being honest with the fact that they DO NOT WANT to deal with a baby. and i completely get that, i don't either. i like silence when i wake up in the morning. i hate the sight of toys. i live in a historic house with some irreplaceable antiques and architectural details. if i saw a kid throw a plastic thing-a-majig at one of them and break it i would struggle not to kill the little heathen. none of that is abnormal. You're right insofar that material posessions matter only to an extent. But when you prefer the company of inanimate antiques to the sound of a child's laughter or the pure energy they would bring into your "historic" house, then I frankly feel sorry for you . I can see people getting sick of kids, sure, but in the end it's an investment like any other. Biologically , as a man, I don't know how you don't have the urge to pass on your seed/lineage, your forefathers probably overcame amazing odds for you to exist only so that their line will die in the face of vanity Bob Bless Amurrica.
thatone Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 I can see people getting sick of kids, sure, but in the end it's an investment like any other. Biologically , as a man, I don't know how you don't have the urge to pass on your seed/lineage, your forefathers probably overcame amazing odds for you to exist only so that their line will die in the face of vanity Bob Bless Amurrica. maybe that's part of it. my dad was adopted. never cared to know his biological family. my mother moved away from hers. both are pretty much self-made people, they don't feel a need to identify with biological family to define themselves.
Emilia Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 I like to spend all my disposable income on myself; I don't want to be bothered buying diapers or feeding or clothing a child. I've never had motherly instincts; I actually find women who dote and talk about their kids all day freaking annoying. I cannot even bother to pretend to say "oh your kid is so cute" because in my mind he or she is NOT cute. [....] Why would I sacrifice my time, money and energy to raise and have a kid? I live and I die; for me that is enough. I have no need to leave anything behind. Some of this. I'm 39 and have never had the desire to have kids, never wanted to slave away to spend all my resources on raising someone and have the hassle and sleepless nights for years to come. There is a reason why women after having their first child often don't go on having a second one, especially if the first child is over 5. It's bloody hard work, requires a huge amount of energy and I don't want to spend my life running after noisy kids. Small children are also incredibly boring.
ThsAmericanLife Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 As radical as this sounds... I actually love children. The messiness, the chaos... that never bothered me. What bothered me first was yes, the cost. I'm only the second person in my entire family to get a college education. I put myself through school... debt free thank you. When I graduated from high school, it was still possible and likely that you would lose your job if you got pregnant. You certainly were going nowhere in your career. I'm not talking about mindless devotion to a career. I'm talking basic survival here. What bothered me second was the either/or decision only women are expected to make. I would have gone insane as a stay-at-home mom focusing all of my life around raising children. My little brain needs more than that... I also hated the idea of a man 'having it all' (ie a career and a family) at my expense. Still do. If he isn't willing to share the burden of parenting 50/50 (or at times 80/20)... and prove that in advance.. he's not getting access to my womb. This is why my ex-H and I never had kids. I got my tubes tied during my marriage to him to solidify that decision. Not on his request. Mine. So, I was before my time apparently... or was raised in the wrong country. My Scandinavian ancestors in the motherland figured it out decades ago. Smart women who are interested in raising children want both... just like smart men want both. Scandinavian countries have a social network that makes that possible. Until the US does that, they can guarantee that it is mostly stupid people who do the majority of reproducing.
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