Defining an EA: What it is and is not...

[findingnemo]

Last night, I met a girlfriend for dinner. She had a fight with her H who accused her of having an EA. When she explained to me what was going on, I agreed that it was in fact an EA. She says it's not and says the following as evidence:

 

1. The "OM" is just a very close friend with whom she shares personal information including the state of her M. (I asked her if this is not a betrayal and she says no. If her friend had been female, would it have been a betrayal?)

 

2. The "OM" is married just like she is and they did acknowledge the sexual attraction but have agreed not to act on it. They basically agreed to be friends.

 

3. Her friendship with the "OM" has not affected how she feels for her H.

 

By the end of the dinner, I wasn't quite sure whether or not she was in an EA.

 

What do you think an EA is? Can two people who are in love and but not acting on it be considered to be faithful to their spouses? Does the simple act of loving another by a MP mean that he/she is in an EA?

[pinkerbell]

Anything that is inappropriate to the relationship. Basically, anything that you wouldn't want your partner knowing about.

 

Some people are very quick to label a friendship an EA because they don't truly believe men and women can be just friends with no ulterior motives. It is possible for men and women to be just friends, and to share personal information as female friends would etc.

 

However, it concerns me that your friend has admitted sexual feelings towards this man, and he her, I just think they are playing with fire.

[Ruby_shoes]

IMO point 2 makes this an EA. Discontented R (push) + Outside sourse of attraction (pull) = very likely an A will happen.

[woinlove]

Last night, I met a girlfriend for dinner. She had a fight with her H who accused her of having an EA. When she explained to me what was going on, I agreed that it was in fact an EA. She says it's not and says the following as evidence:

 

1. The "OM" is just a very close friend with whom she shares personal information including the state of her M. (I asked her if this is not a betrayal and she says no. If her friend had been female, would it have been a betrayal?)

 

2. The "OM" is married just like she is and they did acknowledge the sexual attraction but have agreed not to act on it. They basically agreed to be friends.

 

3. Her friendship with the "OM" has not affected how she feels for her H.

 

By the end of the dinner, I wasn't quite sure whether or not she was in an EA.

 

What do you think an EA is? Can two people who are in love and but not acting on it be considered to be faithful to their spouses? Does the simple act of loving another by a MP mean that he/she is in an EA?

 

The bolded, along with what you have written, suggests this is an EA. If the H has not felt comfortable with the discussion of marital issues and with the fact that they shared the information about their sexual attraction to each other, but the R and sharing has continued anyway, she is purposely putting her M at risk for her R with the OM. The fact that they fought over this implies that her H is not happy with this kind of behavior and sharing by his W. Or, if she hid some of these facts from her H, that is even worse for her M. Sounds like she might be in denial.

[reboot]

If she would be comfortable with her husband involved and participating in their conversations/meetings/whatever, then it's probably OK. If not, it isn't.

[Owl]

I'll tell you what I've seen from what happened in my own situation (and in other stories here)...the LAST person to be able to recognize an EA would be the person(s) participating in it.

 

They're too close, and typically have too much emotional investment to let themselves see it clearly for what it is...until it's well and truly established.

 

Here's my take...it may NOT be an EA.

 

But...if it's a "deep" enough relationship that her H is uncomfortable with it...and if she still refuses to end it even in light of that...odds are...it's either an EA or close enough to be massively detrimental to the marriage.

[Spark1111]

And I have learned after extensive therapy that the only proper response to a person of the opposite sex complaining of their marriage is:

 

I know a good counselor. Here's their card." and then CHANGE THE SUBJECT.

 

People who do relationships well, NEVER talk of their relationship with someone outside the marriage. It is a serious breech or trust. And it is classless and emotionally immature, IMO, too.

[MissBee]

Last night, I met a girlfriend for dinner. She had a fight with her H who accused her of having an EA. When she explained to me what was going on, I agreed that it was in fact an EA. She says it's not and says the following as evidence:

 

1. The "OM" is just a very close friend with whom she shares personal information including the state of her M. (I asked her if this is not a betrayal and she says no. If her friend had been female, would it have been a betrayal?)

 

2. The "OM" is married just like she is and they did acknowledge the sexual attraction but have agreed not to act on it. They basically agreed to be friends.

 

3. Her friendship with the "OM" has not affected how she feels for her H.

 

By the end of the dinner, I wasn't quite sure whether or not she was in an EA.

 

What do you think an EA is? Can two people who are in love and but not acting on it be considered to be faithful to their spouses? Does the simple act of loving another by a MP mean that he/she is in an EA?

 

You can't love another that you don't engage with. Period.

 

If one casually sees someone at work, at the grocery store, at church and only casually speak to them, then you can't be in love with them. You may be attracted but in order for deep feelings to develop, you have to put yourself in situations frequently that foster emotional intimacy.

 

That is an EA in my opinion, fostering emotional/romantic intimacy with another outside of your spouse. So whether or not you both agree to ignore your attraction doesn't matter as by nurturing that attraction (through a close "friendship"), you've already engaged in an EA. When you're dating your spouse...wasn't that how it started too? By just talking and the more you talk the more feelings and intimacy develop.

 

You don't see someone 5 times at the store and say hey how you doing and now you're in an EA. It's through constant sharing and discussing personal things and developing that form of intimacy...and if you're married it's completely inappropriate to do so with someone you're attracted to or could potentially be attracted to. I do not have any male best friends...but I do have male friends and truthfully, there is always underlying attraction (with the non-gay ones). Hence, I am a bit suspicious of those claiming opposite sex bestfriends. Even my current female bestfriend, who is a lesbian, was attracted to me at some point. Now, we're just friends, and I think it's because I'm not a lesbian so it doesn't matter. But she admits that she will always have some attraction to me...if I were a lesbian too, the friendship would have a lot more tension. My male friends, I don't consciously want them or think about them romantically...but if I were to start talking to them often, sharing emotions etc...it can very well cross the line and I can even find myself moving from a "brotherly love" to something more. If I am married, I would not seek male friends to confide in. In fact, my husband should be the man i want to talk to about my emotions and problems, not my random male friends.

Edited November 4, 2011 by MissBee

[Silly_Girl]

And I have learned after extensive therapy that the only proper response to a person of the opposite sex complaining of their marriage is:

 

I know a good counselor. Here's their card." and then CHANGE THE SUBJECT.

 

People who do relationships well, NEVER talk of their relationship with someone outside the marriage. It is a serious breech or trust. And it is classless and emotionally immature, IMO, too.

 

Confiding in one's friend when trying to work out what should happen next can't be called classless and immature. Sometimes just getting the words out (and not waiting several weeks to find a therapist) can really help focus one's mind. It all has to start somewhere.

[SoMovinOn]

An EA could be...

 

- Everything but the sex

 

- The same relationship you'd have with a close friend of the same gender, but, because they are not the same gender, your spouse feels jealous and/or threatened.

[Afishwithabike]

She should cut off contact for the simple reason her the husband is uncomfortable with her relationship with this male friend.

 

The husband's feelings trump any loss of friendship. If she won't cut off the friendship well then you have the answer right there.

 

I know some people who have been the betrayed spouse are quick to say "EA" for any situation which involves someone of the opposite sex. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone here. On a different site, I've seen people tarred and feathered because they exchanged smiles or had lunch with a colleague. Those BS posters took such a hardline stance against any lunch or outing with a person of the opposite sex.

 

I think the situation as you described it is a borderline EA. Why? They've already confided a sexual attraction to each other. That's huge. That's a red flag. That coupled with sharing of personal information about her marital woes takes this beyond a casual innocent friendship with a man. I would be livid if my husband confessed a sexual attraction to another woman but mutually agreed with her not to act on it. Wow. How noble.

[findingnemo]

The bolded, along with what you have written, suggests this is an EA. If the H has not felt comfortable with the discussion of marital issues and with the fact that they shared the information about their sexual attraction to each other, but the R and sharing has continued anyway, she is purposely putting her M at risk for her R with the OM. The fact that they fought over this implies that her H is not happy with this kind of behavior and sharing by his W. Or, if she hid some of these facts from her H, that is even worse for her M. Sounds like she might be in denial.

 

Yes, she has hidden the fact that she discusses her M with her "friend".

 

She claims her H is possessive and has always had issues with her talking to any man. I found it increasingly hard to explain to her that she was doing something wrong because she insists that there are people who have self control and she thinks she's one of those.

[findingnemo]

If she would be comfortable with her husband involved and participating in their conversations/meetings/whatever, then it's probably OK. If not, it isn't.

 

Good idea. I'll ask her.

[findingnemo]

She should cut off contact for the simple reason her the husband is uncomfortable with her relationship with this male friend.

 

The husband's feelings trump any loss of friendship. If she won't cut off the friendship well then you have the answer right there.

 

I know some people who have been the betrayed spouse are quick to say "EA" for any situation which involves someone of the opposite sex. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone here. On a different site, I've seen people tarred and feathered because they exchanged smiles or had lunch with a colleague. Those BS posters took such a hardline stance against any lunch or outing with a person of the opposite sex.

 

I think the situation as you described it is a borderline EA. Why? They've already confided a sexual attraction to each other. That's huge. That's a red flag. That coupled with sharing of personal information about her marital woes takes this beyond a casual innocent friendship with a man. I would be livid if my husband confessed a sexual attraction to another woman but mutually agreed with her not to act on it. Wow. How noble.

 

Yes, yes. I see it the same exact way. This is not a casual friendship.

 

MissBee, I believe as you say that all Rs begin with talking and getting to know each other. I asked her when she started having feelings for the man and she honestly can't remember. They've been friends since they were 17 years old!!! But how can you not know when you started feeling attracted to someone? Is that really credible?

[kirby]

I do believe that men and women can be just friends. However once there is an acknowledgement by one or both parties that there is a sexual attraction, think that a platonic relationship is off the table.

 

~Kirby

[carhill]

1. The "OM" is just a very close friend with whom she shares personal information including the state of her M. (I asked her if this is not a betrayal and she says no. If her friend had been female, would it have been a betrayal?)

 

If her partner would feel betrayed by such a sharing, regardless of gender, it would be considered inappropriate for that relationship. I often use the example of hearing of women's bedroom issues and then having to hug their husband, look him in the eye and know that he's a micro-dick minute man. That's inappropriate, IMO. Equally so, I wouldn't want to be hugging and being socially intimate with one of my wife's female friends with the knowledge that she's aware of our private marital business. I think it's inappropriate, so such sharing is inappropriate. She can choose to STFU or GTHO. Her choice.

 

As an example of my own 'style', when I was having my 'EA', I talked mostly about my issues as a caregiver and the only reference to my now exW was that she was not supportive or understanding of those issues. That was it. The interactions weren't sexual and rarely flirtatious. What made it an EA were the feelings on my part for the person in question. Those feelings were/are inappropriate when one is married.

 

2. The "OM" is married just like she is and they did acknowledge the sexual attraction but have agreed not to act on it. They basically agreed to be friends.

 

Covert agreement. Inappropriate, especially if the agreement included being 'friends' in front of their spouses.

 

3. Her friendship with the "OM" has not affected how she feels for her H.

 

Perhaps, but transparency might affect how her H feels about her. In my case, my exW divorced me. That's a valid response.

 

This process, what you heard, which I learned in MC, is called 'rationalization'. I'll bet, if they got in front of a professional and brought all this out into the open, a lot could be learned about many things.

 

I like Spark1111's advice:

 

"I know a good counselor. Here's their card." and then CHANGE THE SUBJECT.

 

People who do relationships well, NEVER talk of their relationship with someone outside the marriage. It is a serious breech or trust. And it is classless and emotionally immature, IMO, too."

 

I've been approached by a few married women after splitting up with my exW and have followed this advice, actually as a function of what was learned in similar type counseling. Works great

[freestyle]

Finding Nemo---ask your friend this question.........

 

How would SHE feel , if she learned that her H was discussing (read:complaining) all of HER shortcomings as a wife, with a female friend, without her knowledge or blessing?

 

AND that he had admitted an attraction to to this female friend.

 

It's very humiliating to find that you've been put on trial and judged in your absence. To find out that someone you don't even know is privy to VERY personal details of your life. I doubt your friend would enjoy being on the receiving end of that type of treatment.

 

 

Sometimes, all you need to do is present the shoe-on-the-other-foot analogy to wake up someone immersed in an EA. (sometimes)

 

I'm inclined to agree with Owl--"the LAST person to be able to recognize an EA would be the person(s) participating in it."

 

That's been my experience as well---denial can be very strong with EA participants.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

We are sexual beings and to be attracted to someone else is normal and expected.

 

Not everyone and their partner are be alls and end alls. There is plenty my wife has no interest in discussing or sharing. I wish we could discuss many things in more details and on a deeper basis.

 

When I can't, I do vent. I also vent about work, friendships, sports, politics..... There's a reason I am here.

 

Most important though I am of strong enough constitution to know that line, which forever is moving and not to cross it.

 

So the OP is open with her husband, so I don't think it is an EA as she can talk to her husband about it and can be honest. Heck, he knows they were arguing and should make amends.

 

Is it any different then confiding in a friend, sister, mother, who tells you to leave a marriage? If your marriage is so flimsy, quit looking for someone or something to blame

 

If their marriage isn't strong enough, then so be it.

Edited November 7, 2011 by Toodamnpragmatic

[findingnemo]

If her partner would feel betrayed by such a sharing, regardless of gender, it would be considered inappropriate for that relationship. I often use the example of hearing of women's bedroom issues and then having to hug their husband, look him in the eye and know that he's a micro-dick minute man. That's inappropriate, IMO. Equally so, I wouldn't want to be hugging and being socially intimate with one of my wife's female friends with the knowledge that she's aware of our private marital business. I think it's inappropriate, so such sharing is inappropriate. She can choose to STFU or GTHO. Her choice.

 

As an example of my own 'style', when I was having my 'EA', I talked mostly about my issues as a caregiver and the only reference to my now exW was that she was not supportive or understanding of those issues. That was it. The interactions weren't sexual and rarely flirtatious. What made it an EA were the feelings on my part for the person in question. Those feelings were/are inappropriate when one is married.

 

My friend mainly complains about her H's rigidity with regards to what should or shouldn't happen at home, work and in life. He is extra rigid and IMO a dictator. I agree with you though that she is in an EA based on the comfort she gets from her OMM and the fact that now there's a guy out there who with vested interests is privy to her personal business.

 

Covert agreement. Inappropriate, especially if the agreement included being 'friends' in front of their spouses. Actually....good point. It hadn't occurred to me to think about the actual logistics of this friendship. Both couples interact a lot in my circles. Family barbecues, dinners, golf tournaments, and much more. They never seemed too friendly and I'd have never known had she not told me. When I think about the fact that they are sexually attracted to each other, then this whole friendship thing is a real betrayal.

 

 

 

Perhaps, but transparency might affect how her H feels about her. In my case, my exW divorced me. That's a valid response. I can almost guarantee that BH won't leave her. It's a combination of religion, social status, their kids and frankly BS seems quite comfortable with M. What I know though is that he'll be very angry and she'll pay for it dearly when he finds out.

 

This process, what you heard, which I learned in MC, is called 'rationalization'. I'll bet, if they got in front of a professional and brought all this out into the open, a lot could be learned about many things.

 

I like Spark1111's advice:

 

"I know a good counselor. Here's their card." and then CHANGE THE SUBJECT.

 

People who do relationships well, NEVER talk of their relationship with someone outside the marriage. It is a serious breech or trust. And it is classless and emotionally immature, IMO, too."

 

I've been approached by a few married women after splitting up with my exW and have followed this advice, actually as a function of what was learned in similar type counseling. Works great

 

I too like Spark's advice. But perhaps I should advise her to go IC and figure herself out before telling the BS. His temper is legendary to say the least. Maybe if IC helps her figure things out, she can then tell him and leave, or tell him and cut off OMM.

[findingnemo]

Finding Nemo---ask your friend this question.........

 

How would SHE feel , if she learned that her H was discussing (read:complaining) all of HER shortcomings as a wife, with a female friend, without her knowledge or blessing?

 

AND that he had admitted an attraction to to this female friend.

 

It's very humiliating to find that you've been put on trial and judged in your absence. To find out that someone you don't even know is privy to VERY personal details of your life. I doubt your friend would enjoy being on the receiving end of that type of treatment.

 

 

Sometimes, all you need to do is present the shoe-on-the-other-foot analogy to wake up someone immersed in an EA. (sometimes)

 

I'm inclined to agree with Owl--"the LAST person to be able to recognize an EA would be the person(s) participating in it."

 

That's been my experience as well---denial can be very strong with EA participants.

 

I will ask her, thanks.

[findingnemo]

We are sexual beings and to be attracted to someone else is normal and expected.

 

Not everyone and their partner are be alls and end alls. There is plenty my wife has no interest in discussing or sharing. I wish we could discuss many things in more details and on a deeper basis.

 

When I can't, I do vent. I also vent about work, friendships, sports, politics..... There's a reason I am here.

 

Most important though I am of strong enough constitution to know that line, which forever is moving and not to cross it.

 

So the OP is open with her husband, so I don't think it is an EA as she can talk to her husband about it and can be honest. Heck, he knows they were arguing and should make amends.

 

Is it any different then confiding in a friend, sister, mother, who tells you to leave a marriage? If your marriage is so flimsy, quit looking for someone or something to blame

 

If their marriage isn't strong enough, then so be it.

 

Interesting...it begs the question: If she has so much to tell OMM, then she should get out of the M. I say this because we (her friends) know how temperamental her H can be. No physical abuse but we've witnessed several incidents at parties and such. He was once furious at her for participating in a debate on the state of the economy. She was the only woman in a crowd of men. He took her ( more like dragged her) to the car, told her to stay put and returned to the party. She must have been in there for about an hour.so, with so much to share, maybe she should make up her mind leave him.

 

Hmmm... I should advice her to see a specialist. This is definitely beyond me.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

Interesting...it begs the question: If she has so much to tell OMM, then she should get out of the M. I say this because we (her friends) know how temperamental her H can be. No physical abuse but we've witnessed several incidents at parties and such. He was once furious at her for participating in a debate on the state of the economy. She was the only woman in a crowd of men. He took her ( more like dragged her) to the car, told her to stay put and returned to the party. She must have been in there for about an hour.so, with so much to share, maybe she should make up her mind leave him.

 

Hmmm... I should advice her to see a specialist. This is definitely beyond me.

 

So she does confide to women as well..... Believe it of not men bring a different perspective that can be important and can both sympathize with her in addition to providing insight in to her husband, which is not a bad thing. Plus it is safer that she confides to a married man with children, vs. the single unattached male.....

 

In addition this is a "new" friendship, which also means an unbiased point of view is being presented.

 

If she does say she feels she could cross the line, that is what her female friends are for.

 

Yes professional help would not hurt.

Edited November 7, 2011 by Toodamnpragmatic

[findingnemo]

Update:

 

Friday night is our girl's night out. I talked to my friend about talking to a professional. She's not comfortable with it at all. So that's a no. I asked her what she'd think if her H were to do the same? Surprise surprise! She said she didn't care. Okay...I asked her one more question. "Are you in love with MOM?" and the answer after a lot of thought was "Yes". That's as far as we got before the other ladies joined us.

 

I can see an A in the future here. Since she won't go to IC and since I know the perils of an A, I feel that I shouldn't bow out yet. I, at least, need to tell her what could happen to both families and both parties should they do this. let her go in having heard what the pitfalls are.

[woinlove]

Update:

 

Friday night is our girl's night out. I talked to my friend about talking to a professional. She's not comfortable with it at all. So that's a no. I asked her what she'd think if her H were to do the same? Surprise surprise! She said she didn't care. Okay...I asked her one more question. "Are you in love with MOM?" and the answer after a lot of thought was "Yes". That's as far as we got before the other ladies joined us.

 

I can see an A in the future here. Since she won't go to IC and since I know the perils of an A, I feel that I shouldn't bow out yet. I, at least, need to tell her what could happen to both families and both parties should they do this. let her go in having heard what the pitfalls are.

 

Sounds like she has checked out of her marriage but hasn't admitted this to herself yet.

[freestyle]

Update:

 

Friday night is our girl's night out. I talked to my friend about talking to a professional. She's not comfortable with it at all. So that's a no. I asked her what she'd think if her H were to do the same? Surprise surprise! She said she didn't care. Okay...I asked her one more question. "Are you in love with MOM?" and the answer after a lot of thought was "Yes". That's as far as we got before the other ladies joined us.

 

I can see an A in the future here. Since she won't go to IC and since I know the perils of an A, I feel that I shouldn't bow out yet. I, at least, need to tell her what could happen to both families and both parties should they do this. let her go in having heard what the pitfalls are.

 

 

Your friend sounds like she's not open to listening right now.

 

FN---I went through something very similar with a married female friend just over a year ago.

 

She confessed to me that she had strong feelings for a colleague.

 

(funny thing is--I'd already guessed as much, simply from observing their body language around each other. She was shocked that I wasn't shocked.

I said, "sorry, but the two of you are more transparent than you realize...")

 

I gently let her know what I predicted the outcome would be. I tried very hard to warn her about what she could end up going through---(this guy has had other affairs in the past---he's NOT going to leave his wife/meal ticket)

 

I even gave her a link to Loveshack here, and recommended that she take a couple of afternoons, or evenings, and simply read, read, read. I was hoping she would recognize aspects of her current mindset in some of the other OWs posts. She never did visit here---she wanted to keep her head in the sand.

 

Sure enough---someone got word back to his BS, and the proverbial feces hit the oscillating device. He's working on his marriage--and hers fell apart.

She's sporting bus tracks across her heart now.

 

It's hard to be in the position of third party observer, once you know how much damage can happen. I feel compassion for my friend's pain--but she chose to gamble anyways........and lost. She had a H who loved her, who busted his behind to help her--(I witnessed this personally)and she tossed him aside.

She also lost social standing, as well as her job---most of the women in the crowd want nothing to do with her now......word got out, gossip flew---and she was left holding the bag.

All of which I predicted..........*shaking my head , sadly*