Metis Posted November 4, 2011 Posted November 4, 2011 Dasein: If you actually read what I wrote, as well as my other posts on this board, you would realize that I am all in favor of couples determining what works best for them, even if it's not conventional, and that I realize having multiple partners is as normal for some people as being sexually exclusive is for others. The key here, of course, is that the couple should agree to this, with the full understanding by both parties what it is they are agreeing to. Screw whoever and whatever you want, but be honest with your partner -- that's the rule as I see it. And the only thing that I was objecting to here is the knee-jerk assumption that because the fiance is going to Europe -- EUROPE!! -- and she is not under proper male supervision, she is "of course" going to cheat, and not just cheat, but sleep with every man, woman, child and animal living on the European continent. And because "of course" she'll do that, then "of course" the OP should have his fling without making it explicit to her that this is the purpose of the temporary break-up. And as much as it may get your hackles up, you make your calls for reasonableness all the more ridiculous when you state unequivocally that this woman will "probably" cheat on her fiance -- but there is no way that Woggle is cheating on his wife, given his view that women as a rule cheat, and cheating by men is the only appropriate course of action in response. Sure, sure. Let's apply the same standard across the board -- shall we? As for this hypothetical "placard-waving" crowd which would supposedly encourage the fiance to have sex with 30 men as her "prerogative" -- you base that on no evidence whatsoever. I have never said any such thing, and I haven't seen anyone else do so either. If it's as common for women to say as you claim, I am sure you would have no problem providing references to threads where multiple women encouraged a woman who was in a long-term relationship to sleep with 30 men. If you don't, that will only confirm my initial assessment that this is something that you pulled out of you-know-where. But hey -- women would encourage each other to sleep around 'cause you said so, but Woggle's encouragement of cheating (or quasi-cheating, or cheating-that-we-don't-call-cheating) gives us no basis whatsoever to conclude that he himself cheats. Riiiight.
dasein Posted November 4, 2011 Posted November 4, 2011 Dasein: If you actually read what I wrote, Did you or did you not accuse Woggle of encouraging OP to cheat? You did. Now simply cite where Woggle did that or admit it was a lie. The key here, of course, is that the couple should agree to this, with the full understanding by both parties what it is they are agreeing to. Nothing in OP's posts suggests that wasn't the case. Why assume it then? that because the fiance is going to Europe -- EUROPE!! -- and she is not under proper male supervision, she is "of course" going to cheat, The first time in my experience a woman suggested a "break of convenience for her" was in college. We had been exclusive for several months, she was the initiator of that excliusivity. I was still a dupe of women way back then, and bought it hook line and sinker. Later, it became apparent through mutual acquaintance, that a guy had turned her head and she wanted to have the green grass without feeling guilty. I bought it the second time, a few years later with a different woman, and the third time a few years after that. Then I woke up. My friends complained of the same thing, their GFs asking for a break, even making up problems in the relationship to justify such, and then later the cake-eating became apparent. Interestingly enough, I've never asked for a "break" from a relationship, not once, nor have any of my dozens of male friends and acquaintances I have gotten close enough to to know about such over the years. It is typically a female cake eating tactic, formulated specifically to assuage guilt. Men, IME, generally just break up or cheat. Cheating is of course bad but so is cake-eating. Another reason men don't typically ask for breaks is that it causes a massive drama hassle in the SO. If it's time to break, just break up because the caterwauling becomes unbearable real fast otherwise. Now comes OP, a man, who lo and behold was the one asking for the break. Outside my experience, but lots of things are, could happen. He didn't break up or cheat, HE was the one who asked for a break. OK, a role reversal example, happens. Fiancee accepted. OP doesn't mention any of the massive drama generally associated with asking a woman for a break... SHE accepted. Now is it really that offbase to consider that she may also be looking to have a fling? I don't think so. What is offbase is instantly knee jerking to a "protect the poor dear's feelings at all costs" attitude, and there is lots of that in this thread. Why? Maybe I missed OP stating that she was opposed to the break but gave in. The fact that she would accept a break from a fiancee under any circumstances suggests something is up. What could be up? Occam's razor dictates the simplest solution that is she wants some freedom too. when you state unequivocally that this woman will "probably" cheat on her fiance -- Where? As for this hypothetical "placard-waving" crowd which would supposedly encourage the fiance to have sex with 30 men as her "prerogative" I didn't say that either, I said that were she to do it, things would get really legalistic about the "break" real fast, and that her actions would be facilely backwards rationalized and justified here. My evidence for this is reading several hundred threads and thousands of posts here over the last four months.
Woggle Posted November 4, 2011 Posted November 4, 2011 I admit I jumped the gun and I might be wrong. I was just fuming when I wrote this. Everybody makes mistakes.
Metis Posted November 4, 2011 Posted November 4, 2011 Now comes OP, a man, who lo and behold was the one asking for the break. Outside my experience, but lots of things are, could happen. He didn't break up or cheat, HE was the one who asked for a break. OK, a role reversal example, happens. Fiancee accepted. OP doesn't mention any of the massive drama generally associated with asking a woman for a break... SHE accepted. Now is it really that offbase to consider that she may also be looking to have a fling? I don't think so. Nor is it offbase to consider that she may NOT be looking for a fling, and may not realize that "I need a break but expect you to resume the relationship in six weeks" means "I want to sleep with other people and at the same time want you to remain available to me in the event I don't find anyone better". What is offbase is instantly knee jerking to a "protect the poor dear's feelings at all costs" attitude, and there is lots of that in this thread. Why? Maybe I missed OP stating that she was opposed to the break but gave in. The fact that she would accept a break from a fiancee under any circumstances suggests something is up. What could be up? Occam's razor dictates the simplest solution that is she wants some freedom too. Occam's razor, really? Alright, I'll play. Your fiance is going to "Europe" for 6 weeks. While she is away, you want to have a fling. But you want it to be okay with her. Let's think of ways of how to approach it. How about this: "Honey, during the six weeks that you will be out of town, I would like to have sex with another woman, possibly several. I don't mind if you have flings of your own as well. Is that okay with with you"? Do you think this is a simpler and more logical way to do this than initiating a temporary break-up under some really vague pretext of "needing to gain perspective" as a way to satisfy the technicality of being single only in the most academic fashion in order to sleep with other people? I think not. If you skirt the issue with your fiance, that suggests to me that you are trying to obtain plausible deniability in the event she finds out you've been sleeping around and becomes upset -- while at the same time retaining the moral high ground to get upset yourself if she goes and sleeps with someone else. There is literally no other reason to do it this way, as opposed to simply telling your fiance you want to sleep with other people. As for feelings -- women's feelings are no less precious than men's. And you, guys, care about your feelings far more than you admit. Somehow "feelings" are only a dirty word when applied to women, so much so that even asking for simple honesty is verboten, because OMG, honesty is meant to protect the "poor dear's feelings". Knock it off. People in a long term relationship should treat each other with honesty, respect and consideration. If one's own SO regards his partners feelings as too trivial to take into account, then there is no point to having a relationship at all. I didn't say that either, I said that were she to do it, things would get really legalistic about the "break" real fast, and that her actions would be facilely backwards rationalized and justified here. My evidence for this is reading several hundred threads and thousands of posts here over the last four months. It isn't "evidence" unless you present it. Since you've seen hundreds and thousands of posts encouraging women to sleep with 30 or more men while keeping a sort-of boyfriend as a spare, I'm sure you'll have no problem giving me links to, say, a dozen? If you do that, I promise, I'll admit that I was wrong about this. So, let's go over the rules: 1. Twelve links. 2. To threads in which a woman states that she was "technically", but not actually broken up with a boyfriend, fiance or husband. 3. And in which multiple (I'd say 3 or more) women encouraged her to have sex with 30 or so men. I'm sure since you've seen hundreds of these, it will be no problem for you to come up with only a dozen links. If you don't, however, it will be proof that this is just like every other prediction of this sort: pure unadulterated rationalization on the part of embittered men.
Pierre Posted November 4, 2011 Posted November 4, 2011 OP Would you be hurt if she goes overseas to have sex with her lover? Does that bother you? If it bothers you then you could assume your sexual activity would also hurt her. When in doubt follow the Golden Rule.
dasein Posted November 4, 2011 Posted November 4, 2011 @metis Why on earth would I want to engage you further, or spend any more time justifying my POV with evidence!?! when your posts contain plain fabrications about what myself and others have posted that you refuse to correct? And you have the gall to suggest some ruleset for opinions in a relationship forum when you make up whatever POV you want to oppose regardless of what others actually post?! What would be the point?
Metis Posted November 4, 2011 Posted November 4, 2011 OP Would you be hurt if she goes overseas to have sex with her lover? Does that bother you? If it bothers you then you could assume your sexual activity would also hurt her. When in doubt follow the Golden Rule. Thanks, Pierre. That's exactly what I said in my original post in this thread. I don't know how that led to objections that I'm trying to "preserve the poor dear's feelings at all costs".
Metis Posted November 4, 2011 Posted November 4, 2011 @metis Why on earth would I want to engage you further, or spend any more time justifying my POV with evidence!?! when your posts contain plain fabrications about what myself and others have posted that you refuse to correct? And you have the gall to suggest some ruleset for opinions in a relationship forum when you make up whatever POV you want to oppose regardless of what others actually post?! What would be the point? In other words, you cannot come up with any references for threads wherein women supposedly encouraged each other to sleep with 30 men while only technically broken up? Thought so. Look: your opinion about what women would supposedly do is what it is. All I was trying to get at is whether you actually have any rational basis for that opinion, or whether it is based entirely on irrational, emotional bias. Now it's plain that it's the latter, and not the former. That's all.
dasein Posted November 4, 2011 Posted November 4, 2011 In other words... ... I have no interest in continuing a discussion with someone who fills their posts with self-serving fabrications as opposed to simply and honestly responding to the actual words and POVs that others post. Why would I want to waste my time in that fashion? It really is that simple.
Mme. Chaucer Posted November 4, 2011 Posted November 4, 2011 He didn't break up or cheat, HE was the one who asked for a break. Just in the interests of clarity, the OP wrote: I suggested we split up for this duration. Not a "break" but split up. I read that as: He DID break up, and it was NOT a "break." It's clear, isn't it? The clarity is muddled, though, when he calls her his fiance in present tense. He never said she "accepted" this "splitting up," but when somebody tells you they want to split up, I think they are acting unilaterally. The person on the receiving end is not required to "accept" this. For all we know, his fiance was horrified and is still in tears about this (stupid, IMO) move.
Metis Posted November 4, 2011 Posted November 4, 2011 ... I have no interest in continuing a discussion with someone who fills their posts with self-serving fabrications as opposed to simply and honestly responding to the actual words and POVs that others post. Why would I want to waste my time in that fashion? It really is that simple. Yeah, you already said that. Now you are repeating yourself. If you don't want to continue the so-called discussion of what women would say if they said it -- then don't.
Metis Posted November 4, 2011 Posted November 4, 2011 Mme Chaucer: Forget it, Dasein doesn't want to talk to you either, seeing as he finds your contradiction of him offensive.
Mme. Chaucer Posted November 4, 2011 Posted November 4, 2011 Anyway, the "fiance" or "ex-fiance" or whatever you want to call her has no presence or voice in this story. We just have the OP. He considers himself engaged. He asked to "split up" while she is abroad, and is very clear that it's not "a break." So, they are really, actually each single, right? And he asks "is it cheating" if he has a fling. If they are broken up, no, it is not cheating. If they are, in fact engaged and not in an "open relationship," it is cheating. And all the conjecture, mine included, about how contradictory it is to speak of a person as your "fiance" under such circumstances, or how clearly the OP is NOT in any position to be contemplating marriage, or whether it's fine with him if she has flings too, are just off topic.
Mme. Chaucer Posted November 4, 2011 Posted November 4, 2011 Mme Chaucer: Forget it, Dasein doesn't want to talk to you either, seeing as he finds your contradiction of him offensive. He seems to be entering one of his "rage periods."
Jono85 Posted November 4, 2011 Posted November 4, 2011 OK, OK I got it. This thread was probably started by a troll. He's getting what he wants by getting all of us fired up. We're all fighting over this more then likely fictional story. And everyone is bitching Woggle out. Troll Boy got what he wanted. Enough already. This thread is a f*cking joke. I'm done posting and giving this troll what he wants:rolleyes: I suggest the rest of you do the same. yeah lol he hasn't even made a post after his OP i do not believe, it's just been 6 pages of ppl getting mad at eachother and the OP, who's probably munching on some microwave popcorn enjoying the entertainment . the life of a troll must be super fun!
ascendotum Posted November 4, 2011 Posted November 4, 2011 (edited) OP - If you want to have a fling with another woman while your fiancé is away overseas for work, and not have it considered CHEATING imo, you should call off the engagement (assumed). I realise you want to ultimately marry this woman, and I get that you want to have some fun before you get married, but I think this is bogus to call what you want to do a 'split up' instead of a 'break' when you already have the intention to get back together and go on and get married. Like many situations on LS we dont know the full facts and it could well be like someone else said...."I think it's a big mistake to make an assumption like that. It's far more likely she agreed to this because she loves him, or is scared of him breaking off the engagement completely, and feels that agreeing to this is the only way she can salvage the relationship." IMO, if you have the intention of getting back with this 'wonderful' woman when she returns home, and continue the 'fantastic relationship', then I think you should & would feel guilty for sleeping with another woman. If your gf/fiancé was the one who initiated this break and specifically called it a 'split up of our relationship' then I'd say you would have no reason to feel guilty if you slept with others during that time, even if you were to reconcile. The OP might be a troll, but I still think the relationsship situation posed by him was worthwhile for discussion, and I have no doubt scenarios like this happen. Edited November 4, 2011 by ascendotum
ShannonMI Posted November 4, 2011 Posted November 4, 2011 yeah lol he hasn't even made a post after his OP i do not believe, it's just been 6 pages of ppl getting mad at eachother and the OP, who's probably munching on some microwave popcorn enjoying the entertainment . the life of a troll must be super fun! Exactly and STILL they keep fighting over this stupid fictional sh*t. Time to move on people!!! At least Wog moved on. He was getting beat up on this thread. He's the only smart one out of the bunch:rolleyes:
Woggle Posted November 5, 2011 Posted November 5, 2011 I was really pissed off last night and was applying it to this situation. I admit I was wrong. I still think the responses would be much different if the genders were reversed and that is what pisses me off. The fact that there would be a lot of you go girl kind of encouragement makes me want to add some balance but I should look at every case individually.
Metis Posted November 5, 2011 Posted November 5, 2011 I still think the responses would be much different if the genders were reversed and that is what pisses me off. The fact that there would be a lot of you go girl kind of encouragement makes me want to add some balance but I should look at every case individually. You are being pissed off at something that's a hypothetical that exists only in your head. That suggests that you are addicted to anger and use it as a form of emotional self-stimulation. My advice -- without any hostility whatsoever -- is that you should seek professional help for this. You really should.
Woggle Posted November 5, 2011 Posted November 5, 2011 You are being pissed off at something that's a hypothetical that exists only in your head. That suggests that you are addicted to anger and use it as a form of emotional self-stimulation. My advice -- without any hostility whatsoever -- is that you should seek professional help for this. You really should. I am pissed off because I can imagine it. I have seen it time and time again. My ex would get angry if we were watching a regular movie on cable and an attractive woman was on screen but saw nothing wrong with herself cheating with half the neighborhood. I know that for a good number of women though certainly not all they only have a problem with men cheating but not the other way around.
CocoaBrown Posted November 5, 2011 Posted November 5, 2011 this whole plan is incredibly dumb imo. and why are you saying it's not a "break" but you're splitting up?? if you both have the intentions and plans on being back together when she gets back, i don't get why you don't think it's a break. either way, i think this is dumb. so essentially you guys are agreeing to f*ck other people for a little while to help build perspective and strengthen your relationship?? lol. doesn't sound like either of you are ready for marriage if you both are cool with this idea. just breakup (for good...or at least under the belief that it's completely over), or stay together. this in between stuff is silly. I agree with this post. The whole idea sounds ridiculous! Either be together or not!
Metis Posted November 5, 2011 Posted November 5, 2011 I am pissed off because I can imagine it. I have seen it time and time again.Yet your friend was unable to provide even one link to a post where women supposedly encourage women to cheat. I doubt you can, either, but feel free to prove me wrong. My ex would get angry if we were watching a regular movie on cable and an attractive woman was on screen but saw nothing wrong with herself cheating with half the neighborhood. I know that for a good number of women though certainly not all they only have a problem with men cheating but not the other way around.You have married friends who informed you that married men get more action in clubs than unmarried ones. They could only have gotten that information (if it's even true) by cheating on their wives. Yet they blame their wives when they file for divorce. When something like this happens, you ignore it, because that's not what stimulates you. However, when you hear a woman say something objectionable, or you hear a man say that he had heard from his friend who heard from his girlfriend who heard from her cousin who heard from her sister who heard from her co-worker that some woman, somewhere, said something objectionable, you flare up and immediately extrapolate it to all women because you enjoy the stimulation that the anger provides. It's called "confirmation bias". I understand that there are things in the world that are worth getting angry at. However, hypothetical things that hypothetical women would hypothetically say because you hypothetically imagined it without any actual basis in fact -- that isn't worth getting worked up over, unless, as I said, you enjoy the anger itself.
Woggle Posted November 5, 2011 Posted November 5, 2011 Maybe you are right. I admit I am still bitter over certain things and it just pisses me off how certain double standards come into play. I was wrong for applying it to this thread though. I also doubt that my friends cheat since most of the ones who tell me these things are single. I have also observed from being a bartender for a couple of years how easier it is for a man to cheat on his wife than for a single man to get a date.
xxoo Posted November 5, 2011 Posted November 5, 2011 I am pissed off because I can imagine it. I have seen it time and time again. My ex would get angry if we were watching a regular movie on cable and an attractive woman was on screen but saw nothing wrong with herself cheating with half the neighborhood. I know that for a good number of women though certainly not all they only have a problem with men cheating but not the other way around. You know Woggle, this is common in cheaters....being very jealous, and projecting their OWN unfaithfulness onto their partner. It isn't specific to women. Cheating men do this a lot, too. Do you realize that some hurt women out there will read your posts and see it as more confirmation that all men suck? Just like you read hurt peoples alarming posts and see it as more confirmation that all women suck. It is a cycle, and you are fueling it.
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