One week down, a life time to go...

[AlisaMarie]

I have been on this site for far too long about the same person. It as been a roller coaster ride and at this point- I am convinced I was mentally abused and as sick as he was for letting it go on for so long.

 

Narcissism can be very attractive. You can flounder in a dream world that this sick individual has it all right... but when you are the object of pain repeatedly- you start to snap out of it.

 

One of many breakups just happened a week ago. It hurts like a bitch every time but this is where I need everyone's help! He always comes back... lurking around confessing his sickness and mistakes and I am the only one that gets it.

 

Now me being my co-dependent self... I am here to save the day! And him! WRONG! It's not going down like that anymore. I cannot put myself through that. I made myself happy by trying to make him happy (which NEVER worked). Nothing was ever enough and I was still put down and ignored but still expected to give up my time, life, and dignity for him! Gas lighting was his specialty! (you never loved me, you never did anything for me, you've changed, you've been a b*tch to me.) I actually thought of ways to change myself but stopped and thought "what the EFF?" I gave him perfectness on a daily with ZERO QUAMS!

 

I wish I never met him, and I don't wish him the best and happiness. I just pray that he goes through life realizing his mental state and does something about it. He has a small child that I worry about every day.

 

Thank you for listening. I know that if you read my old posts you will think that it's my own fault for playing the game for so long, but I have a slight illness as well (co-dependency). If you have been involved with someone with a personality disorder, then you understand how hard it is to get out.

 

Thank GOD for LS. You have always been here for me when nobody else gets it.

Edited November 1, 2011 by AlisaMarie

[geegirl]

One of many breakups just happened a week ago. It hurts like a bitch every time but this is where I need everyone's help! He always comes back... lurking around confessing his sickness and mistakes and I am the only one that gets it..

 

You were the only one that enabled it. Taking him back doesn't eliminate the problems he has but encourages it. In order to stop that, you disengage from him and heal yourself and work on your issues. He will always be who he is. And most likely, never change.

 

My ex was diagnosed with NPD. I've had co-dependency issues and the two of us put together, was a disaster. My ex would cry about his issues but did he ever want to do anything about it, no. He'd cry about how he can't connect emotionally and he forgets how to "love" and that he wants me so badly and two days later he's happy with his issues and how he lives his life and continues the cycle.

 

He even told me once after the breakup that if a woman allows him to yo-yo in and out of her life, he will take it as far as it goes. I told him to never disturb me again and he said, "When I let go, I don't completely let go. I will push as far as I can go." After the breakup, he was honest about who he was. I had to be the strong one and ignore.

 

If you know what you are dealing with, then that should be motivation for you to stop the cycle. It won't change. He won't magically be that nice guy. He won't magically become your dream partner the 7th time around. He won't magically become self-aware. If anyone needs to change, it's you.

 

One week down and a lifetime to go? It won't always be this way. It won't take a lifetime to forget him and move on. He is just a sliver of the pie.

Edited November 1, 2011 by geegirl

[AlisaMarie]

Geegirl,

I love your insight. You have seen me through many of dark moments and I truly feel that you completely understand what I have gone through in this relationship. It saddens me because I have always been so independent as women, just not as a girlfriend.

 

I am emotionally beat. I feel like I feed off of his attention whether it's positive or negative (usually negative). It's been a week since it's been over again. I really have no intentions of going back... I even have been going out and talking to other people. I just get so effin depressed because I feel him everywhere I turn. He haunts my existence.

 

I know there is no easy way out other than to press forward and make the best of my life. Because... ultimately, this is MY life. I just never really got over him in the 2 plus some years and I am scared. Scared of never getting over it... carrying the pain of the emotional abuse I took to the next relationship... or not being able to resist him sniffing around again.

 

How did you do it?

[geegirl]

It's not a surprise that you are emotionally beaten down. In the span of two years you have broken up 6 times. That can take an emotional toll on anyone. Imagine the rollercoaster you have been through, the uncertainty, the turmoil, the tears, the fleeting moments of happiness and then the spiral into darkness, the anxiousness and depression - it's an emotional, mental and physical beating. A loving relationship, should be nourishing and fulfilling. Even if you ended, while painful, you don't feel depleted as when you're in a toxic one.

 

You feed off his negative attention because that is all you know. Negative attention is STILL attention. And you take whatever you can get because of your addiction to him. Any attention from him will sustain you. And when you are in a toxic relationship, it's hard to tell up from down. You'll settle for anything to get a fix from your source.

 

That depression will be there, when you're constantly reminded of him but as you detach you will slowly release yourself from those bonds. You never really got over him in the two years because you never really "broke up" with him. You've never had the chance of going through the hurt and pain of getting to the other side because you kept going back. Your pain was salved by hope, by the thought that the break would just be temporary and that he'd be back and the R would continue again and you'd be okay again. A false sense of security. You never really gave yourself a chance to completely heal and gain mental clarity. Your heart never really detached. You had a bandaid on versus where you are now, which is a raw gaping wound. No bandaid for temporary relief. You never really had to deal with the aftermath. If you are serious about breaking away, this is when you will feel the pain and all that comes with a real break up.

 

At my peak of depression and hurt, I was scared that I would never get over it either. But I did. What I had to do was connect with reality. Instead of reacting, I started thinking. Logically and not with my heart anymore. Looking at him for who he is and not what I wanted him to be. Looking at my patterns and what I needed to do to step away. My therapist always pushed me to practice thought stopping, self-control which in turn helped me create boundaries for myself. When he texted, I didn't react but I stepped back and applied those coping skills. When you ignore contact once, just once, the next time becomes a little easier. I also went out and put myself out there, even when it was uncomfortable. I think his life became mine and I was an extension of him. When he left, I was lost. I had to reinvent myself again. Started going to church, making new friends (it's hard), reading self-help books, was consistent with therapy and being proactive in doing the work (we hardly spoke about him but more of my core issues as it was the cause of me making bad choices), journaling, etc.

 

I believe when you ar able to grasp the reality of him, that is when you will be able to overcome and find your strength to push forward. When you have an "aww...he was so sweet when" thought...stop and remind yourself of the reality. Romanticizing and idealizing him won't get you anywhere. While he may have been sweet, you are where you are today, emotionally beaten and scarred, because of the reality of him.

Edited November 1, 2011 by geegirl

[AlisaMarie]

Do you think if I get past the longest NC between us (3 weeks) the healing process will begin? Until then I feel as if I am anticipating communication.

Edited November 1, 2011 by AlisaMarie

[geegirl]

I don't think it's about hitting the longest mark of NC, and then the healing process begins and the anticipation stops, but more so, when you decide he is not good for you and you don't want him disrupting your want/need to move on. Even when you want to go back and you stop yourself, realizing that the pain of being without him is much more tolerable than the hurt of being with him, that is when you begin to let go. The healing process will never begin if you harbor hopes of him coming back, because when he does, there is a pretty good chance that you will go back, 3 weeks/1 month/2 months. Healing happens when you've grieved the finality of it and you've reached the want to completely let go and never look back.

[flow15]

AlisaMarie,

I completely feel your pain. I too have been on this site for just over a year now over the same guy... we too have been on and off so many times that I've lost count now.

He is like a drug, I'm addicted to him, any tiny bit of attention he throws my way I feed it up. And fall into a depression when I get nothing.

 

Everytime it ends and I go NC, all I'm doing is waiting for him to contact and come back to me again, because he always does it, whether its 3 weeks or 6 months. I think it has reached a point now where I have to go NC and have no more hope and forget about him for good. But the thought of that scares me to hell. He's the love of my life and I can't see myself forgetting about him and moving on, perhaps because I don't want to. But its not about what you want, its about whats good for you..

 

The last time I had gone NC it was for 6 months, and I never stopped anticipating communication. So I don't think after 3 weeks you will stop..

[AlisaMarie]

Flow:

I am sure we are both beautiful smart women that would have no problem getting a decent guy! I met this guy this weekend that is a gorgeous as he is nice and it's not even smudging the pain I feel!

 

I do remember you last year... in your case, was there another girl involved? This girl is on round three with my ex. They have only lasted a couple weeks because he comes back to me... but I can't help but think she's an idiot! (ummm duh... look at me!) I justify it by telling myself that WE were real and she's a fling. I am just going crazy right now and need to seriously let it go. The sad part is... as soon as I start feeling whole again, he strikes. I almost want to keep myself in this state... at least I will already be down when he attacks again. Maybe I will be so mad that I actually can forget him.

 

How are you feeling today?

[flow15]

I know what you mean, I meet other men but I am just repulsed by them even if they are good looking and really good guys, I just can't help but compare them to my ex.

 

I have no idea if theres another girl involved, he would never tell me! And we live in different towns now, so its not like I would bump into him out with another girl. But I'm pretty sure there is....

 

Today was a bad day, just feeling really down as I'm realising that I really have to let this guy go

 

I know we'll get there though, we were fine before we met them, right? If only we could erase all the memories!!

[AlisaMarie]

I know what you mean, I meet other men but I am just repulsed by them even if they are good looking and really good guys, I just can't help but compare them to my ex.

 

I have no idea if theres another girl involved, he would never tell me! And we live in different towns now, so its not like I would bump into him out with another girl. But I'm pretty sure there is....

 

Today was a bad day, just feeling really down as I'm realising that I really have to let this guy go

 

I know we'll get there though, we were fine before we met them, right? If only we could erase all the memories!!

Sickly, I don't just hold on to the good memories (which there weren't many) I hold on to the bad too. And the bad is what allures me. I don't get it I think I can save him! I need to save myself! One week ago tonight he was telling me he can't stand being with me. Doing this while I was taking care of his son and he was at work! Who does that! I need to remember what a ****bag he was to me for sure. Almost 1 week NC... I had obsessing over it but I have to make it happen.

[Downtown]

Narcissism can be very attractive.

AlisaMarie, I'm sorry to hear you are still suffering so. Yes, narcissism "can be very attractive." But you would be lucky if you were only dealing with narcissism. Of the ten personality disorders, only one is notorious for making the spouses and partners feel like they might be losing their minds. That disorder is not Narcissistic PD. Although a narcissist will abuse you, he will not get you so confused that you fear for your own sanity and ability to walk away.

 

As we discussed a year ago (your 11-13-10 thread), the behavior you describe matches most of the nine BPD traits at a very strong level. As I understand it, there are three reasons why it typically is far more difficult to leave a BPDer than a person suffering only from strong NPD traits. First, whereas NPDers are emotionally stable, BPDers are not.

 

This instability is why BPDers flip back and forth between loving and hating you and do much more of the push-you-away and pull-you-back behavior. That flip usually occurs in ten seconds based on some innocuous thing you said or did. Once a person has been subjected to this cycle a dozen times -- being alternately adored and hated -- she starts feeling like an addict who is alternating between heroine highs one week and heroine withdrawal pains the next.

 

This is why a BPDer relationship is considered so addictive and toxic. And this is why the most distinguishing hallmark of a BPDer relationship is strong feeling of the nonBPD partner that she is losing her mind. It therefore is very common for the partners to go running to a therapist to find out if they are going crazy. Although the partners of narcissists also are treated abusively, it is unusual for them to feel they are going crazy.

 

Second, although NPDers also do the push-pull (but to a lesser extent), they do not do it because of altering between the abandonment fear and engulfment fear like BPDers. Rather, the NPDers typically do it because, once you return to them, they lose interest in you and start taking you for granted -- i.e., they do not feel engulfed like the BPDers. Like the BPDers, NPDers can rage in response to your comments. Yet, the rage usually is in response to your disagreeing with them, thus refusing to validate their false image of being a person who is always right. In contrast, the BPDers get furious when you say anything triggering their two great fears: abandonment and engulfment.

 

Third, whereas BPDers typically are caring individuals who actually can love you (albeit in an impaired and immature manner), NPDers are not truly caring and do not love you. Instead, they consider you a useful object when you are supporting their false self image and a non-useful object when you are not supportive. This difference is important because it is far more difficult -- especially for codependent caregivers like you and me -- to walk away from a sick person who occasionally adores us. It would be easier for you to leave if you were only dealing with a narcissist who is incapable of ever loving you, even for a few days.

 

I therefore agree with GeeGirl and Flow that the key to leaving him successfully is to finally accept the reality that he will not change and will only become ever more resentful -- as each year goes by -- of your inability to fix him or make him happy (an impossible task). Reaching that level of acceptance can easily take a year so don't beat yourself up that you've already taken that long. In my case, it took me six months to decide to divorce my exW AFTER she had me thrown into jail on a bogus charge. And it took me another full year, after that, to decide to go complete NC. Like I said a year ago, the notion of walking away from a sick loved one is ANATHEMA to caregivers like us. It goes against our religious beliefs, our sense of morality, our family values -- indeed, against every fiber of our being. But that is exactly what we must do because, as GeeGirl explains above, our enabling behavior is harming the BPDer by destroying his only opportunity to confront his illness and learn how to manage it.

[AlisaMarie]

Downtown:

Your experiences have opened my eyes to so much. Many people on here claim that we shouldn't label people to validate our hurt. Some people are seriously jerks, I get it. But others have serious psychological problems that WE as the enablers NEED to understand to have a healthy recovery.

 

Now that I am educated on what my ex is- it's opening my eyes to what I have to do to improve myself and avoid such relationships in the future. He has shown ALL of the traits strongly for BPD... and many of NPD. Is it possible to be both? I have read a lot on both topics and they seem to go slightly hand in hand.

 

I know what I have to do... but as you all know, I have had a really hard time resisting his apologies. Every time they seem more and more sincere but still end in broken promises because "of me." Like I said, I gave nothing less than perfectness. People with these issues are a lose lose situation.

[Downtown]

Others have serious psychological problems that WE as the enablers NEED to understand to have a healthy recovery.

I agree. Most partners of NPDers and BPDers have such strong, healthy personal boundaries that they will leave the relationship within a year of the start of the verbal abuse. Those healthy partners therefore do not need to understand the psychological problems. They walk away and don't look back.

 

In contrast, we codependent enablers have such weak personal boundaries -- and so much empathy -- that we have difficulty distinguishing our partners' problems from our own. We lose sight of the line where we leave off and our partners begin. It therefore is far easier for us to see our own problems by first learning what our partner is doing wrong. Then we can easily see -- by subtraction -- the dysfunctional role we have played. Otherwise, we will go through life in a toxic relationship, convinced that we are "only trying to help, to do good." This is why we cannot easily see that we are actually doing harm by enabling the other person's sick and toxic behavior. But, clearly, you know that already. So I am simply validating what you know.

He has shown ALL of the traits strongly for BPD... and many of NPD. Is it possible to have both?

Yes, absolutely. Most people diagnosed with one PD are also diagnosed as having one or two other PDs also. The reason is that the ten PDs are NOT separate diseases. Instead, they are only groups of symptoms. It remains to be proven whether these symptom groups are caused by the same disease or, rather, by thirty different diseases. The ten symptom groups, then, are simply classificatory devices that make it easier for psychologists to discuss the common patterns of dysfunctional behavior they see most often in their practices.

 

Unfortunately, when the ten PD groups were created in the diagnostic manual in 1980, too many categories (i.e., too many PD "disorders") were created. The evidence, as I noted above, is that they overlap so badly that most PD sufferers are diagnosed with having 2 or 3 different PDs.

 

The reason I mention this is because the two PDs you mention -- NPD and BPD -- are the worst offenders in that respect. Narcissism is a trait that is commonly found in several other PDs, including BPD, Antisocial PD, and Histrionic PD. For that reason, the new draft Diagnostic Manual (DSM5, to be released in 2013) proposed eliminating half of the PDs, including NPD, and consolidating them into the remaining PDs. About three months ago, the tide turned and the draft committee decided to retain NPD as a separate PD (eliminating only 4 others).

 

As to BPD, it is somewhat of an "umbrella" category in that it overlaps many others. This is why there are so many traits (nine) for BPD. The committee is fixing this, apparently, by retaining BPD but eliminating some PDs that it currently overlaps (e.g., Histrionic PD). Strictly speaking, BPD -- like the other PDs -- is simply a "syndrome," which means it is a collection of dysfunctional symptoms. Much confusion was caused -- as is sometimes seen on this forum -- by the American Psychiatric Association's decision in 1980 to continue referring to these symptom groups as "disorders." That term is very misleading because, in every field of the medical sciences, the term "disorder" refers to a specific identifiable disease. In psychology, however, it does not.

 

This is why, on the hundreds of forums dedicated to medical problems, the members oftentimes are very critical of any other member claiming to know a diagnosis (because he may be pointing to the wrong disease). At the same time, however, you will see a thousand members talking 24/7 about their symptoms and how severe those symptoms are. And you likely will never see a member chastising anyone for "trying to diagnose" or being an "armchair doctor" when discussing symptoms.

 

Everyone on the medical forums understands that it is perfectly reasonable to discuss the severity of symptoms one is seeing. Indeed, when people go to the doctor's office, the first thing the doctor says is "Tell me what symptoms you are having." Moreover, most major medical centers and hospitals have created webpages targeted to laymen explaining the symptoms of various diseases. Those institutions know that the knowledge of symptoms is a good thing because, the more knowledgeable a person is, the quicker he is likely to seek treatment.

 

Yet, when we come here on LoveShack and do exactly the same thing when discussing personality disorder (PD) symptoms, some members will attack us as "trying to diagnose" and being an "armchair psychologist." The problem is that, when we are talking about a PD such as BPD, many people confuse "symptoms" for "disease." They do not understand that, for PDs, it is impossible to misdiagnose the diseases causing the 10 PDs because THERE ARE NO KNOWN DISEASES. Instead, there are only groups of symptoms and, as I said, those groups (i.e., "disorders") are being reduced in number.

[AlisaMarie]

Downtown, thank you for all of the insightful information you bring to the table. It has helped me understand what I was dealing with and helped me help myself. I just hope he seeks help because he projects and denies... even after admitting to having problems.

 

I have been in several relationships, and I can tell the difference between being an absolute jerk and serious mental problems.

 

I plan on turning my back on him forever. I do not wish to be his target of happiness/anger love/hate. I know I am not crazy and deserve better. I have to tools now to stay away or get out quick if another person of this type arrives in my life.

 

Thank you!