seren Posted October 30, 2011 Posted October 30, 2011 I rarely start threads, but a chance conversation with a woman yesterday made such sense to me I thought I would share. I have a market stall on Saturday's selling fabric and craft items. H (my husband) was helping out and we were fooling around, an old woman was laughing at us and asked me how long we had been together, so I said 26 years, she says, you look happy and I say yes, we are, we've had our moments, but he makes me happy and that's all that counts. Well, says she, happy is good but that marriages aren't just based on happy and laughter, she had been wth her husband for over 50 years and that he was her soulmate. I ask her what she means when she calls him her soulmate - given all the discussion over the years on LS about soulmates I was interested in hearing it from someone who still used this after 50 years. She said, when you meet someone it's all butterflies and new, but love hasn't had a chance to grow, it's like planting a tree, in the first few years it's all spindly and weak. Then when you have children, you are both looking after them, so your marriage and the romance often takes a back seat. There will be arguments, hardship and many times you both wonder what the hell you are both still with each other for. Then when the kids leave home you find yourselves on your own again and start paying attention to your marriage again. Her take on a soulmate was that it was only after time, give and take, weathering storms, seeing and being with each other through the worse of times that you can appreciate the strength of each other and the marriage and then you realise that you are where you want to be because you have found your soulmate. her final shot was that the spindly tree grows strong by the battering life throws at it. It made me thing of all the times I have seen the term soulmate used in relation to relationships after a short time and that for many, the term means nothing or doesn't exist. I know that each of us have our own take on it, but for me, it was a profound moment in a bit of an odd place, market days aren't usually so deep and meaningful. I think I agree with her and was comforted to know that even after 50 years she still felt this way. I didn't quite know where else to share this, but my first thoughts were the endless conversations here about it and that I would share.
norajane Posted October 30, 2011 Posted October 30, 2011 Her take on a soulmate was that it was only after time, give and take, weathering storms, seeing and being with each other through the worse of times that you can appreciate the strength of each other and the marriage and then you realise that you are where you want to be because you have found your soulmate. Sure. Just like you don't know who your 'lifelong friends" will be until you actually live many decades of your life with them remaining good friends throughout. People toss around the word soulmate (and "friend" and "love") frequently, but few actual soulmates run around talking to everyone about how they'd found their soulmate.
Trimmer Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 Sure. Just like you don't know who your 'lifelong friends" will be until you actually live many decades of your life with them remaining good friends throughout. That's an interesting take. Which is the cause and which is the effect? Do you meet your "soulmate", and that causes you to stay together for half a century, or do you manage to stay with someone who has a sufficiently compatible personality for a half-century, and that causes you to declare them your soulmate. Or, do you finally find the best shoe repair guy in your town, and therefore you declare him your solemate? People toss around the word soulmate (and "friend" and "love") frequently, but few actual soulmates run around talking to everyone about how they'd found their soulmate. Indeed - maybe I'm just jaded by my own life, but it always seems a bit like overcompensation, or wishful thinking, or desperation or something, to hear someone declare someone else to be their "soulmate" after a few dates, a few weeks, or months, or whatever... Humble boaters don't refer to their own boat as anything but a "boat." You don't call your own boat a "yacht", for example. Others may call it that, and that's acceptable, but a you always refer to your own boat, humbly, as a "boat."
Author seren Posted October 31, 2011 Author Posted October 31, 2011 TBH it was the first time I had heard someone IRL, call their partner their soulmate, certainly the first time I had heard an older person say this, she must have been in her 70's and that she was a random bod also made it all the more interesting, to me. It is an interesting chicken or egg question, I think of all the pre H relationships I have had, I married twice before H and at one point certainly thought that they were The One, until they no longer were at least! I wonder if the longevity of a relationship means that living without them just becomes unthinkable, yet many people divorce after long term marriages. I often think that it is perhaps the people who change and not the relationships and that people want or expect more from their lives and so up sticks. The soulmate thing is often bandied about, I cannot say I have ever said to someone that they were my soulmate, certainly I cannot imagine life without H in it and that we just 'fit' so well together. I never thought I would forgive an A, nor do I think I would have stayed with previous partners and my abhorrence for A's hasn't really changed. While the A was utter crap, it has changed how we are with each other and how we communicate for the better. So we have weathered a mighty storm that the A was. Not saying that relationships that began as A's cannot grow, but I really don't think that anyone really knows anyone until they have been through the wringer a few times and lived together on a day to day basis for some time. What, where and how she said it threw me off balance as it wasn't a starry eyed, early days person, just an ordinary shopper in a busy market, which was why I asked her about it.
LilyBart Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 The only two people who can truly say whether they are "soul mates" are the two people involved. No matter what DEFINITION is being used. Is it the initial spark of recognition that carries on for life, regardless of the two ending up together? Or this old woman's definiton of how time + struggle = soul mate? Is soul mate used exclusively for romantic R's? Or can it cover all R's, like friends, siblings, parent/child? Do soul mates even exist? And is so, can you have more than one? Everybody will have a different DEFINITION of what a soul mate is - just because people don't agree, doesn't mean the other person is wrong.
findingnemo Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 I rarely start threads, but a chance conversation with a woman yesterday made such sense to me I thought I would share. I have a market stall on Saturday's selling fabric and craft items. H (my husband) was helping out and we were fooling around, an old woman was laughing at us and asked me how long we had been together, so I said 26 years, she says, you look happy and I say yes, we are, we've had our moments, but he makes me happy and that's all that counts. Well, says she, happy is good but that marriages aren't just based on happy and laughter, she had been wth her husband for over 50 years and that he was her soulmate. I ask her what she means when she calls him her soulmate - given all the discussion over the years on LS about soulmates I was interested in hearing it from someone who still used this after 50 years. She said, when you meet someone it's all butterflies and new, but love hasn't had a chance to grow, it's like planting a tree, in the first few years it's all spindly and weak. Then when you have children, you are both looking after them, so your marriage and the romance often takes a back seat. There will be arguments, hardship and many times you both wonder what the hell you are both still with each other for. Then when the kids leave home you find yourselves on your own again and start paying attention to your marriage again. Her take on a soulmate was that it was only after time, give and take, weathering storms, seeing and being with each other through the worse of times that you can appreciate the strength of each other and the marriage and then you realise that you are where you want to be because you have found your soulmate. her final shot was that the spindly tree grows strong by the battering life throws at it. It made me thing of all the times I have seen the term soulmate used in relation to relationships after a short time and that for many, the term means nothing or doesn't exist. I know that each of us have our own take on it, but for me, it was a profound moment in a bit of an odd place, market days aren't usually so deep and meaningful. I think I agree with her and was comforted to know that even after 50 years she still felt this way. I didn't quite know where else to share this, but my first thoughts were the endless conversations here about it and that I would share. This is a great thread, Seren. I'm one of those guilty of using the description "soulmate" for my xMM. The weird thing though is that it's not something that I believed until several years after I fell in love with him. Is it wishful thinking on my part? It will be interesting to see people's take on this topic.
Author seren Posted October 31, 2011 Author Posted October 31, 2011 LilyB, I don't know about using the term for friends, children etc. I love my son to distraction, but wouldn't term that as my soulmate and probably have just one friend who I really, truly love, we have known each other quite literally all our lives, the sharing of memories makes our friendship really special as both of us know what makes the other tick, our fears, dreams, good and bad points etc. I have had partners over the years where I thought they were The One, only to now think what plonkers they were. I don't 'blame', if that is the right word, anyone for calling anyone a soulmate, but don't necesssarily think that a person is truly known until they expose all their traits and not just those 'on show'. I agree with the idea that instant attraction and a ' there you are' feeling can exist, but that this can only last for as long as the, going to use the term Limerance here, lasts and that the exhillaration that exists in the early days calms down to a deeper, less frantic feeling. My interest was that this was totally out of the blue and from a ordinary, older woman who had been in an ordinary marriage for over 50 years and was unexpected. When she spoke about her husband, you could see and hear her happiness and contentment and it was so refreshing to see. Interestingly, to me, he came along and called her wifey, a term used here with affection, yet often used in a derogatory way to describe a BS. I just found it very endearing and hoped that after 50 years I would feel this way. It was a gentler, familiar love and it made far more sense hearing her call him her soulmate than someone who hadn't weathered all the storms or seen their 'soulmate' at their worse or on their uppers and still felt that way. I hope this can be discussed in a non aggressive manner, it isn't meant to be contentious or snarky.
xxoo Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 her final shot was that the spindly tree grows strong by the battering life throws at it. I don't know about the soulmate-thing, but I agree wholeheartedly with this! The hardships of life can make a marriage much stronger--or they can crush it.
frozensprouts Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 i think the term soul mate can have both positive and negative meanings. It can be positive when it is used to describe the feelings like the lady you describe has for her husband. These people know they love each other... but it is the quiet, deep love that stands the tests of time and life. This couple may have been trough some very difficult times, and yet they are still together. they may very well be each others best friends too. Another meaning to soul mate seems to be the kind of desperation attached to the feelings of infatuation ( limmerance). while these feelings may grow, often they never do and simply fade away. an unfortunate use for the term soul mate seems to be when it is used to excuse all kinds of hurtful behaviors myself, i think the term soul mate can be asinine or kind of nice, depending on which meaning one attaches to it
findingnemo Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 Thomas More described the meaning of soul mate when he said, "A soul mate is someone to whom we feel profoundly connected, as though the communication and communing that take place between us were not the product of intentional efforts, but rather a divine grace. This kind of relationship is so important to the soul that many have said there is nothing more precious in life." This is one definition of a soulmate and I think it describes what people mean when they call someone that. How long does it take to know that another is one's soulmate? In my case, I didn't know why I felt the way I felt about xMM. It scared me to the extent that I avoided him for almost 3 years after our meeting. Love at first sight? I didn't believe in such things and frankly still don't. Lust at first sight maybe. He was older than I was, more worldly, and I distinctly remember telling a friend of mine that he was too smooth to be real. Fast forward 3 years and our first date. (He was single at this point) I only went out of guilt. He had a month before flown to Paris (I was at University) to see me and although I had agreed to his visit, I fled (again!) in fear of what I suspected would happen. He couldn't stop thinking about me, he'd explained. For 3 years??!! He'd only met me once! We started dating and for most of the R I never quite understood or trusted my feelings. They were overwhelming - I craved this man like nothing else. It wasn't the sex. That was at first quite traumatic for me frankly. It was him. A few years later when we started the A, I still felt the same way. I would only think of him as my soulmate at least 7 or so years after that first date. Am I right? I feel what I feel and that's not debatable. My only worry about this soulmate issue is this. So I think he's my soulmate, does he think I'm his? Doesn't it follow that for one to be yours, you have to be his? You can't be having spiritual connections with someone unless he's having them with you. So there is some validity in the notion that to be soul mates, you have to have been together for a long time, IMO. It also makes sense to me that soul mates end up together...somehow.
michelangelo Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 I think it is great that the old lady feels bonded to her husband after 50 years. However, there are now 7 billion people on this planet all pursuing their own random ways of finding love--or not. That there is a soulmate out there, as in meant to be, divine connection? I don't think so. She was fortunate to find a compatible man. I am curious though, how would her husband describe her? Unprompted and not in her presence, not knowing her answer?
Spark1111 Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 Interesting thread, Seren! I have had that great rush of excitement in the beginning of relationships; sweaty palms, anticipation of seeing each other and hot sex; the thinking that everything coming out of your new love's mouth is profound with romantic or spiritual meaning....sigh...a soulmate, maybe. In hindsight, I thank the heavens I did not choose any of them for a long term relationship! We would have crashed and burned within 4 years. Maybe I'm just lucky in that I picked the one person on the planet that I felt truly safe with; someone I could share anything and everything with. It was heartbreaking to be betrayed by him and I and we have worked hard to overcome it. I remember an incident when are daughter had a car accident a month after DDAY. I had thrown him out of the house and he was living with his OW (unknownst to me) and I was so angry, and crazy, and heading for D....and my first knee-jerk reaction was to pick up the phone and call....him! And as I stared at that phone in the nanosecend it took to dial, something clicked within my brain, an epiphany; I would not care who he was with, how we ended up, but with a certainty that surprised even me, I knew we would always be best friends in so many ways. We would never be able to hate that out of each other; too much shared life together. And I knew he would always come right over to help me if I asked; he would always pick up the phone when I called; he would always, on some level, be there for me whether we went our separate ways with other people or not. How many BS's say, if she makes you happy, happier than I do, then you gotta go for it? Maybe, not too many. It was the lies that killed; not the feelings. And I'm not sure what sort of bond that is; I just had the wisdom to know it is very rare in anyone's lifetime. I am grateful for it, whatever anyone wants to call it.
Trimmer Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 I just found it very endearing and hoped that after 50 years I would feel this way. It was a gentler, familiar love and it made far more sense hearing her call him her soulmate than someone who hadn't weathered all the storms or seen their 'soulmate' at their worse or on their uppers and still felt that way. Again, a very interesting take on the discussion. Maybe there are the soulmates that we feel, and there are the soulmates that we earn. How many times do we hear someone in the throes of grief saying, "but I thought he was my soulmate..." Most people, when they get married feel this way. We think that ours is the one special one - that we're going to break all the records. We think, we believe - we feel - that we're linking up with our soulmate forever. Otherwise, most of us would never take the plunge. Then on the other hand, there are those like the woman you met. It's kind of like the difference between experience and naivete. And by saying that, I don't mean to belittle those who feel they've found their soulmate after a week or a month or a year... I believe the feeling is real; I just don't know if you can count on the accuracy of that, 9 times out of 10, or given current divorce statistics, even 5 times out of 10... The other thought I had was, I wonder if those who find themselves in a soulmate relatonship after 50 years of marriage actually started out with a more workmanlike approach to marriage, way back when, and found the soulmate relationship emerge slowly and over a long time. Where those who start out thinking they are soulmates right away are more likely to find their fantasy dashed at some point.
Author seren Posted October 31, 2011 Author Posted October 31, 2011 I know, that for me at least, I have had some truly amazing experiences when dating (God that was ages ago), but it was more the whole, getting ready, going out, flirting, feeling and being told I was all that, and of course the sex, But, hand on heart, I cannot say I truly felt intimacy in most of those. I know that they never saw the grumpy me, or the slobby me, but that was part of the attraction I think. I wasn't looking for long term so they quickly burnt out when the excitement waned and they wanted more. So, although the experiences were thrilling and made my head spin, I wouldn't say they were my soulmate. The old lady just suprised me by her use of the word, most of the attendees at the market are from farming stock and they are, in the main, quite traditional in these parts, so I was nicely taken aback. Her H trundled up to find her, called her wifey (a term of endearment in these parts), had an armful of her bags and they linked arms and off they went. They certainly looked as though they fit, who knows, they could have got home and been at it (arguing) hammer and tongs. I remember just before D day, I was on a girls holiday in Crete just before H came home from Iraq and feeling sad that he wasn't there with me, an old local couple would be seen swimming together in the afternoon and larking about like teenagers and at night sat on a bench holding hands just watching the sea. I felt so envious because that was what I wanted and how I imagined me and he when older, but knew we had problems that I intended sorting when he came home. I wanted that familiarity so much and that for me was what I imagined soulmates to be. So, after thinking about it more, I think that my version of what soulmates are is largely about love, like and hopefully lust with the added bonus of intimacy and familiarity, I think it is also safety and trust, phew, such a lot of feeling, emotion and action involved in this soulmate thing, at least in my world. Spark a lot of what you say and have said to your H, the leave if she makes you happy etc mirrors what I said and I wonder if it is more common than thought, I too would have always been there for H and offered to make moving out easy for him. I remember the OW saying to me that she thought I was stopping H speaking to her and me saying that I had asked him to give her closure, she was adamant that she knew him and that he would never do that. fact is, it was exactly how I thought he would act. H also shared that she was snarky about her husband, saying that he just wanted to watch telly and didn't want to do very much, H said that this was how he was when at home and I wondered how much we really know about those we have relationships with until we have seen them in their own space. Although I thought he wouldn't have an A and that I knew him, so I had no room to talk. So, time doesn't necessarily mean that you know someone better, just differently and then I wonder, do we base our idea of soulmates on the person we are presented with and are we then prepared to still call them soulmates when we find they are different from the romanticised view we attribute to them. Sorry for the War and Peace but this intrigues me, a little.
analystfromhell Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 I would have responded a few weeks ago that I didn't believe in soulmates but evidently there's some evidence of it: (Great lecture by the way) Point of it is- if you feel an instant connection upon meeting someone, that tends to reinforce the relationship and is a good predictor of togetherness.) Now what constitutes that level of chemistry and how to recognize and nurture it is a great question. I think there's a huge band of people who could be our "soulmate" but it's really up to how much effort the two people are willing to put into it.
Breezy Trousers Posted November 2, 2011 Posted November 2, 2011 (edited) Sure. Just like you don't know who your 'lifelong friends" will be until you actually live many decades of your life with them remaining good friends throughout. People toss around the word soulmate (and "friend" and "love") frequently, but few actual soulmates run around talking to everyone about how they'd found their soulmate. So true! I've been with my husband for 22 years or so, but I never referred to him as my soul mate to anyone .... A older co-worker, after hearing me talk to him on the phone day after day, used that phrase to describe us to another co-worker. It fit. :love: We've been through a lot together. As is often the case with growth, it's been messy & scary for us at times. It's all been worth it. Oddly enough, when a friend was trying to hook me up with my husband back in 1987, I told her he wasn't my type. I only decided he was "my type" six months later, when I saw him rollerblading without his shirt on. We felt a deep sense of familiarity with each other at the beginning and knew we would marry ... My point is: You never really know who that "soul mate" will be. It's not for you to decide. However, I'd like to take this soul mate conversation further -- I have encountered two men who were also "soul mates" for me, but not in the traditional sense of the word -- and certainly not in the same kind, loving, supportive way as my husband and several long-time friends. One was a therapist who dangerously crossed boundaries with all of his clients. Another was a man I had an inappropriate attraction to (which I conquered without hurting anyone). As crappy as my experiences were with them, they were catalysts for tremendous growth in my life.... Likewise, my mother was my biggest soul mate of all, and it took me 38 long, tortured years to recover from her. But I love her and always remember her with deep gratitude! I would never be where I am today without her, and I love where I am today. All relationships are assignments, but some relationships push you to expand your soul more than others. Edited November 2, 2011 by Breezy Trousers
LilyBart Posted November 2, 2011 Posted November 2, 2011 This is a true story of someone I know: A long time ago when her daughter was still little, this woman was at the airport waiting for a connecting flight. A man departed at the gate she was waiting at and their eyes met. The woman eventually forgot about the incident until years later, after she had divorced, dated and met her new husband-to-be. It turned out that HER NEW HUSBAND was that man at the airport so many years ago. He was able to describe her outfit, hairstyle and the child she was with, her then-toddler daughter. I believe this was a case of two soul mates recognizing each other and while the timing wasn't right when they first "met", their life path enabled them to meet again. This couple has been together for over three decades, so one could also argue that this is ALSO a case of time+struggle = soul mate. Now here's the thing - of course this isn't what actually happened but - had this couple started talking at the airport upon their initial "meeting" and had it turned into a friendship, that turned into an EA that turned into a PA....does it diminish the soul mate theory? I don't think it does.
LilyBart Posted November 2, 2011 Posted November 2, 2011 Thomas More described the meaning of soul mate when he said, "A soul mate is someone to whom we feel profoundly connected, as though the communication and communing that take place between us were not the product of intentional efforts, but rather a divine grace. This kind of relationship is so important to the soul that many have said there is nothing more precious in life." This is a great quote. Divine grace - I never thought of it like that but it makes absolute sense to me.
frozensprouts Posted November 2, 2011 Posted November 2, 2011 question... i often see the term "soul mate" being used in relatively short term relationships that have not lasted. How could someone in a short term relationship even know if their relationship partner is their "soul mate" anyway? wouldn't one have to get to know a person really well, under all types of conditions and stresses to know what they are really like? and even if they are "soul mates", does that mean they are right for each other and should be together? while the idea that someone can see someone and remember then a long time later and this makes them 'soul mates" is really nice, it's not really sensible. I can remember what my eighth grade science teacher looked like and wore...does that make him my "soul mate"? No, it just means he had bad hair and wore an ugly suit that one will never forget, no matter how hard one tries:laugh: (it also means that I have the ability to remember the minute trivia of daily life- an utterly useless skill- if only i had the same aptitude for remembering people's names and phone numbers, i think i'd be a lot better off)
Author seren Posted November 2, 2011 Author Posted November 2, 2011 I absolutely promise my rose coloured glasses are firmly in their case!! I remember the very first time I saw H, such a very long time ago and I felt not only a WOW!! who is he? but a, ah there you are, sort of thing. I cannot really describe it and I am not given to unicorns, rainbows and all that, but when we finally spoke I truly felt I had met the person I was meant to be with. He was about to get engaged to a woman in the US and I wouldn't go out with him while he was seeing someone and so we remained friends only. I moved to another country, sent him an engagement card and thought of him as the one who got away. 3 months later he had tracked me down was single and we began to slowly have a relationship. I later found out that although we lived some 200 miles away from each other when growing up that he had delivered newspapers to my Great Aunt's and that in 1881 his gt gt uncle lodged with my gt gt grandfather. Coincidence or fate?? who knows. I do know that had we split up after his A I would have always loved him, always looked out for him and made things easy for him to leave if he would have been happier with someone else. I don't think anyone truly knows someone until they have lived with them through the good and bad times and I don't think that anyone truly knows the depth or strength of their relationship until it has weathered a few storm - not necessarily an A.
Breezy Trousers Posted November 2, 2011 Posted November 2, 2011 question... i often see the term "soul mate" being used in relatively short term relationships that have not lasted. How could someone in a short term relationship even know if their relationship partner is their "soul mate" anyway? wouldn't one have to get to know a person really well, under all types of conditions and stresses to know what they are really like? Well, Einstein and quantum physicists say that "time" doesn't really exist. FS, I'm as sensible as you are, which is how I have managed to avoid some serious messiness in my life while my hormones raged. I try not to give too much credence to "love at first sight" and that sort of thing. Having said that, there's so much beyond our perception and understanding. Synchronicity does exist, IMO. Some of the most powerful relationships that rattle the soul don't have much to do with the duration of the relationship or even the nature of the relationship itself but something beyond our comprehension. I know that my experience with my "negative" soul mates (for lack of a better word) was because they triggered deep awareness in myself. It didn't necessarily have to do with them, per se, but they were powerful catalysts for something deeper than what appeared on the surface. I'm sure this can be true of a brief love affair, too. I do think I understand what you're getting at, though, and, in a practical sense, I totally agree. In the beginning, a lot of what we're in love with is our story about the person, not the reality of the person. It takes time to see who the person is. On the other hand, I'm not sure "love is blind" is such a bad concept. Maybe the reason we are so crazy in love in the early stages of a relationship is precisely because we haven't had time to judge our partner yet. Everything is new and we're so open! Maybe our perception of our partner gradually becomes so clouded with judgment over the years that we fail to see them clearly anymore. This is often referred to as "boredom," "apathy," etc., but is it? Maybe it's just judgment -- believing we "already know" our partner. Eventually our perception is so blocked that we fail to see our partner anymore. Rather than examining the blocks to our own awareness, we end up blaming the partner and turning our backs to them ... or, sometimes, having an affair with someone we haven't had time to judge yet. question... and even if they are "soul mates", does that mean they are right for each other and should be together? No. I think you can love someone (recognizing that the feelings are unbidden, irrational & out of your control -- but THERE), be deeply affected by that person, and still have very clear understanding that the relationship is not only not right, but utterly disastrous for that person, for you, and for everyone involved. Sometimes the most loving thing is to recognize that fact, grieve that fact, walk away and not look back.
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