Money is getting in the way.

October 29, 2011

Seems to be good advice from a raw money angle from many posters. Looking at it from a different angle, there is a balance between forecasting what the future holds for your relationship and being able to exist in the now and find enjoyment. The future is uncertain in so many ways that you will always be able to come up with some form of dealkiller scenario if you wish, and seem prone to do so. It's wise to keep an eye on immediate developments that may influence the future, but dwelling in the future to the extent you are could create illusions of dilemmas when there aren't any real ones.

It is a bit unfair to say he values money more than you when he is even open to discussing this. A truly materialistic person would shut down such a discussion instantly and probably in anger. In your shoes I'd let this drop for the time being since everything else is going well.

October 29, 2011

I said earlier that I get the vibe he is really scared of commitment, and 'biting off more than he could chew' does resonate well. It does seem like he got scared and wanted to back off and establish different boundaries, ones he felt more comfortable with based on how committed he is. And yeah, you are correct in that if he agreed to the combining idea, it would indicate to me that he was in 100%.

For me it's like "We've been living together for months, I can't understand why he still isn't all in." Basically after he said, "I want you to stay here with me" my commitment has increased, I am under the impression that his is too, that this is a journey we're on together. Meanwhile, on his end, he is realizing "Oh crap, I'm not ready for this, I don't want this, I need this to change, I need this to be more casual."

You've been together for about six months now, correct? Maybe that is not enough time for him to take it to the next level (i.e. joint finances). Maybe to him, that signals the promise of a wedding engagement, and maybe he isn't ready for that, yet. If so, are you okay with that?

October 29, 2011

A month ago during that crisis, I advised you to find a new place. The way you wrote your posts, it seemed like things were at Defcon 2. I was concerned because you were having a stressful time, but in the end, you decided you weren't moving. You took a strong stand as I recall and the resolution seemed powerful to me.

Now it's a month later and you are talking about the same stuff. You mentioned that your BF thinks about breaking up at every fight and you seem to be keeping score on things. Something is bubbling from the surface, but I don't see a boil.

ZenGirl advises you to move out. This time I say stay. I think you need to simply be happy and live your lives as best you can for a while. Put all the analyzing and thinking completely away for awhile. Continue saving up your money and be frugal. A move may be in your near future, but try not to dwell on that.

Experience your relationship for what it is without the meta discussions about the relationship. Try to observe your relationship in its current state.

Live mindfully. The present will tell you everything you need to know about your relationship.

October 29, 2011

ng from the surface, but I don't see a boil.

ZenGirl advises you to move out. This time I say stay. I think you need to simply be happy and live your lives as best you can for a while. Put all the analyzing and thinking completely away for awhile. Continue saving up your money and be frugal. A move may be in your near future, but try not to dwell on that.

Experience your relationship for what it is without the meta discussions about the relationship. Try to observe your relationship in its current state.

Live mindfully. The present will tell you everything you need to know about your relationship.

That is advice that is tainted with your own situation where the expectations are way different.

The entire thread is focused on meaningless details and everybody ignores the elephant in the room. This man is not committed to her in the same way she is committed to him.

What I see is advice by folks that are in denial or rationalize the situation. If she simply wanted to be a FWB and a room mate she would be in Hog Heaven. However, she is committed and this man is NOT.

By definition it is a dysfunctional relationship where she should not be playing house.

October 29, 2011

Now I'm thinking perhaps I should move out. Perhaps he was right in suggesting that before--it's clear that he is just not ready, possibly not even willing, to commit to me, and I don't like living with someone who isn't ready or willing to commit. I have trouble feeling secure when things are like this. It's like he still wants to be casual. Because if he's into so much separation and independence...why live together at all right now? If I'm still here, there's no incentive to get him to really commit. He can always stay casual for as long as I'm willing to be okay with it.

This man is from India, when it comes time to commit, to marry & have children he'll be heading back home to marry a woman his parents have found for him, I'd bet my next paycheck on it.

Btw, as far as him taking you to India to meet his family, he might have well meant what he said during the post sexual bliss but in the cold light of day reality probably hit him. Taking a live in playmate home to Mom & Dad in India is most likely apt to start a family war, lol, you will NOT be warmly received & looked upon as a future daughter in law.

The money in this relationship is, IMHO just a smoke screen covering up the basic fact that this man isn't all in, he doesn't see you as prospective wife/mother material due to cultural differences and concerns. He'll live with you till he's sick of you or till his family's pressure on him to marry & have children reaches critical mass, then you'll be history, a wild story to share with his sons someday.

Edited October 29, 2011 by soserious1

October 29, 2011

Is this Indian man born in the US or Europe with no Indian accent?

Or is he a recent immigrant with Indian accent?

Many second and 3rd generation Indian men are culturally western and marry outside the ethnicity.

October 29, 2011

I find it half amusing, and half sad, that MORE THAN ONE poster on this thread is 'betting money' on the man ditching the entire life he has made for himself and returning to an arranged marriage by his parents just because he is of Indian ethnicity. Way to be ignorant and racist, people. Not all Indians are alike, and certainly not all practice arranged marriage.

October 29, 2011

This man is from India, when it comes time to commit, to marry & have children he'll be heading back home to marry a woman his parents have found for him, I'd bet my next paycheck on it.

Btw, as far as him taking you to India to meet his family, he might have well meant what he said during the post sexual bliss but in the cold light of day reality probably hit him. Taking a live in playmate home to Mom & Dad in India is most likely apt to start a family war, lol, you will NOT be warmly received & looked upon as a future daughter in law.

The money in this relationship is, IMHO just a smoke screen covering up the basic fact that this man isn't all in, he doesn't see you as prospective wife/mother material due to cultural differences and concerns. He'll live with you till he's sick of you or till his family's pressure on him to marry & have children reaches critical mass, then you'll be history, a wild story to share with his sons someday.

I agree. I think he's never had a serious relationship or made a real commitment because he knows deep down he won't really commit to a woman not approved by his family and culture. Y'all are playing house -- and it doesn't even sound fun.

October 29, 2011

We just finished talking (he's away for the weekend) and it went well.

Things we have to work on: He is very used to saying things in anger/frustration that he doesn't mean (including the 'take-back' of the offer to pay for me to go to India with him) just to piss me off because he's angry with something I've said/done. So I will have to remember this and help him to curtail that behavior.

He said that he has been holding the financial thing over my head as a means of control and that he's been wrong in doing so. I suspected this sort of thing when he said he never felt this way about anyone before, he's never been so emotional, etc over a girl--all his other relationships were lighthearted fun that he ended when he just got bored. He feels really vulnerable so, tearing a page from my playbook, he has taken something and used it to maintain an upper hand in the relationship because he is still scared of his feelings, he is scared of being hurt. I acknowledged my part in him still being scared, noting that in a sense I did take him for granted when he was supporting me. And I can understand his viewpoint, as I have felt like this so many times before. He did say, again, that he doesn't want me to leave. He said he knows we are going to be as one in everything, he does want that.

So for now, this is tabled. We stay where we're at and focus on the present.

October 29, 2011

I find it half amusing, and half sad, that MORE THAN ONE poster on this thread is 'betting money' on the man ditching the entire life he has made for himself and returning to an arranged marriage by his parents just because he is of Indian ethnicity. Way to be ignorant and racist, people. Not all Indians are alike, and certainly not all practice arranged marriage.

I'm not ignorant, nor am I racist, in my professional life I work with many very nice, highly educated foreign born people. When it comes time to settle down and marry like attracts like, my work peers have selected spouses from their own countries and cultures in overwhelming numbers. I can count on one hand the number of men born in India, with parents who are still living who've opted to marry American women.

October 29, 2011

I'm not ignorant, nor am I racist, in my professional life I work with many very nice, highly educated foreign born people. When it comes time to settle down and marry like attracts like, my work peers have selected spouses from their own countries and cultures in overwhelming numbers. I can count on one hand the number of men born in India, with parents who are still living who've opted to marry American women.

Saying that it is a possibility is different from 'betting your money' on it. When you 'bet' on something, it is because you are certain of it - in this case, certain that he would throw away everything in his life there, including Tigress, to return home for an arranged marriage, just because he is of Indian ethnicity. Especially insulting, if it is wrong, is the insinuation that he would lead her on and then dump her because of his ethnicity.

If I were to say that a large percentage of Americans are overweight, I would just be speaking pragmatically. If I were to say that I 'bet my money on you being overweight because you're American', though... don't you see how that would be ignorant and racist?

Edited October 29, 2011 by Elswyth

October 29, 2011

I am not sure if a person making generalizations about Indian culture or individuals is racist or ignorant. More they are simply generalizations based on a sample set. I think it is too strong to call it racist.

Aside from that my only addition is that the OP stated she never wants kids and her bf is unsure. I don't know if he is really unsure but if in the end he wants kids (he may already know this) then this relationship would also be temporary in his mind. Those facts would make you ok in the short-term (if everything you are going through works out) but they do not bode well in the long-term.

October 29, 2011

Saying that it is a possibility is different from 'betting your money' on it. When you 'bet' on something, it is because you are certain of it - in this case, certain that he would throw away everything in his life there, including Tigress, to return home for an arranged marriage, just because he is of Indian ethnicity. Especially insulting, if it is wrong, is the insinuation that he would lead her on and then dump her because of his ethnicity.

If I were to say that a large percentage of Americans are overweight, I would just be speaking pragmatically. If I were to say that I 'bet my money on you being overweight because you're American', though... don't you see how that would be ignorant and racist?

Look, I've spent 30 years in the sciences, have worked with hundreds of foreign born professionals from all over the globe & spent considerable time in particular with Indian Nationals.Many come here solely to get their educations & quickly return to India, others who obtain jobs with 6 figure salaries, stay here, work, live as inexpensively as possible & then retire around age 35, they return to India with huge savings accounts to marry and rear children.

I did not say that the OP's boyfriend would willfully use her, he probably means every word he says in the passion of the moment, but the cold hard light of dawn always comes

& facts are facts,the difference between American & Indian culture & customs is HUGE, a fact that becomes a sobering reality when it comes time to chose a marital partner. He may well care for her but the reality of what standing up to his family

is going to be like, as well as his expectations of how he wants his children to be reared have to be hitting him upside the head at some points, I suggest that those points come when OP presses him for signs of a deeper commitment.

Edited October 29, 2011 by soserious1

October 29, 2011

Other things which may cause problems are the bf's beliefs on education, social class and financial standing. There is a sense I get that some of these issues also gnaw at him and he may not see you guys as close enough on these things as he would like.

This is probably a generalization and so don't call me racist - but I imagine his parents at home have some views on this which would have influenced him. OP if these are things on your mind too which make you insecure, there are probably things he has said and/or done which you lead you to that conclusion. These are not things to ponder deeply about but if your insecurity continues indefinitely I don't know this relationship is right for you. I'm not sure those things will change and I believe people should feel safe in the right relationship.

October 29, 2011

Look, I've spent 30 years in the sciences, have worked with hundreds of foreign born professionals from all over the globe & spent considerable time in particular with Indian Nationals.Many come here solely to get their educations & quickly return to India, others who obtain jobs with 6 figure salaries, stay here, work, live as inexpensively as possible & then retire around age 35, they return to India with huge savings accounts to marry and rear children.

I did not say that the OP's boyfriend would willfully use her, he probably means every word he says in the passion of the moment, but the cold hard light of dawn always comes
& facts are facts,the difference between American & Indian culture & customs is HUGE, a fact that becomes a sobering reality when it comes time to chose a marital partner. He may well care for her but the reality of what standing up to his family
is going to be like, as well as his expectations of how he wants his children to be reared have to be hitting him upside the head at some points, I suggest that those points come when OP presses him for signs of a deeper commitment.

This post of yours sounds perfectly fine. Really, it was the speech of 'I bet my money that he's going to do ... because he's Indian' that rubbed me the wrong way. Like I said, just as how people would react if I told every one of you, "I bet you're overweight because you're American". Perhaps it is too strong a word to call that racism, but IMO a generalization based on race is racism. Not the hate-filled, genocide-related racism, but racism nontheless.

October 29, 2011

We just finished talking (he's away for the weekend) and it went well.

Things we have to work on: He is very used to saying things in anger/frustration that he doesn't mean (including the 'take-back' of the offer to pay for me to go to India with him) just to piss me off because he's angry with something I've said/done. So I will have to remember this and help him to curtail that behavior.

He said that he has been holding the financial thing over my head as a means of control and that he's been wrong in doing so. I suspected this sort of thing when he said he never felt this way about anyone before, he's never been so emotional, etc over a girl--all his other relationships were lighthearted fun that he ended when he just got bored. He feels really vulnerable so, tearing a page from my playbook, he has taken something and used it to maintain an upper hand in the relationship because he is still scared of his feelings, he is scared of being hurt. I acknowledged my part in him still being scared, noting that in a sense I did take him for granted when he was supporting me. And I can understand his viewpoint, as I have felt like this so many times before. He did say, again, that he doesn't want me to leave. He said he knows we are going to be as one in everything, he does want that.

So for now, this is tabled. We stay where we're at and focus on the present.

Good to hear TigressA.

October 29, 2011

This post of yours sounds perfectly fine. Really, it was the speech of 'I bet my money that he's going to do ... because he's Indian' that rubbed me the wrong way. Like I said, just as how people would react if I told every one of you, "I bet you're overweight because you're American". Perhaps it is too strong a word to call that racism, but IMO a generalization based on race is racism. Not the hate-filled, genocide-related racism, but racism nontheless.

Look,like it or not, culture, customs play heavily into marital decision making for people of ALL ethnic backgrounds,like marries like in most cases, pointing that out is not racist

As to the OP, if memory serves me correctly, her B/friend dumped her off in a motel room rather than take her on a trip with him that would have involved her mingling with his brothers or cousins. Do you seriously think this relationship as it stands will survive a trip back to India for a meet and greet with mom and Dad?

Btw, betting your paycheck on an American being overweight would probably be a very safe, money making wager

October 29, 2011

1.) It was totally unfair and kind of inappropriate for you to bring up the idea of pooling all finances, especially since it's only been a little while since you've made any money at all. He has shown a willingness to help and support you in the past, which you've sort of admitted you took for granted at times in other threads (I don't think on purpose or that you wanted to be without income, but you lived without rent and didn't really consider that you should be extra accommodating in that case), and he is probably still a bit weary from that, as some of your fights have shown.

2.) Also, if I was living with someone who made significantly less than me and they brought up the idea of pooling all our money, I'd be a little WTF?!? about it myself, and I'm a totally generous person. It's just. . . . it'd feel manipulative and unfair to me for the person to ask for that. That's something that naturally occurs when the commitment is there and usually comes from the side of the person who has the most money or the two mutually, not something that the person with less money "requests."

3.) I DO 100% agree that no one should be forced to live above their means/desire because of their partners' wealth.

...

4.) If you can afford everything NOW and you are not living above your means, then why worry about the future so much? It does smack me as manipulative the way you brought it up --- whether you meant it to be or not --- and needless anxiety as well.

5.) Re: your boyfriend's materialism. Okay, that one sucks, but you were the one who brought this up, who is worrying about money, and that's ALSO materialism. Combining finances would be in YOUR interest; that's also materialism. I'm not sure what your BF has done that is materialistic and is a red flag. . . we are all a little materialistic (as zen as I try to be, I'm materialistic for worrying about that extra $2 for the name brand!) and it sounds like you guys are just clashing in your individual materialism. Rather than see it as a HIM problem, it might help to re-examine your individual styles and see the places where they clash. Just looking at HIM and not looking at yourself is going to get you nowhere.

I agree with everything ZG said. In short, it's not fair or appropriate to bring up given the history and your current situation, and it's causing needless worry.

But as for finding a solution to the pooling issue itself:

Something my BFF and her H (they are MARRIED, they did not do this before they were married - back then it was 50/50, appropriately so, IMO) do might work for you:

They split all joint expenses (rent/mortgage, all debts/loans, all utilities/groceries, all joint entertainment/travel) proportionally based on how much they each bring to the table. At one point, he earned 70% of their household income, and she only 30%. (The roles have since reversed.) They're both anal and numbers-oriented, so they figured out how much all of their bills are, and he paid 70% of them, and she paid 30% of them. (She now pays 70%, and he 30%... and how they pay depends on how much they're each earning as a percentage of the total household income.) Doing it that way could possibly work for you.

Another option is to have you each pool a certain percentage of each of your paychecks for joint expenses. I'm just making up numbers here, but say you each put in 60% into a joint account, and keep the rest for yourself (your savings, your personal shopping/entertainment). That 60%-account would be what you both have to work with for deciding where to move, if at all, when the lease ends.

Either way, it's arguably an "equal" or "fair share" of the expenses, without having to be 50/50.

Edited October 29, 2011 by Star Gazer

October 30, 2011

I don't want that 'If it doesn't work out' stuff. I want to be deeply in love and trust and commit to my partner with EVERYTHING that I have, and have that returned to me.

He has shown me he is not ready for that, he does not want that (yet). He does not completely trust me or want to completely commit to me (he admitted that); he isn't ready.

This is a perfect example of why people shouldn't live together unless they plan to marry. He sounds like a roommate not a boyfriend.

Save your money and check out apartment prices, perhaps even go into open house events to see what you can get for what you could afford. Otherwise, you'll have to find someone else to live with and truly split everything down the middle because you will be roommates/housemates.

This guy isn't for you.

October 30, 2011

They're both anal and numbers-oriented,

I guess it is either anal, controlling, or greed.

When I was married my wife was anal about money and she needed to exert control very badly. She only worked about 30% of the time and made about 5% of my total income.

We pooled the money and in turn she paid all bills, hire contractors, and did all the saving. The only money part where I had control were in my retirement accounts.

She was very anal about dollars and would often fight with me if I wanted to tip extra in a restaurant. If I bought an expensive item she would often argue that I did not know how to purchase in an intelligent manner and would eventually find some shop where the item was on sale for less.

Her desire to control money was exhausting and I simply did not get involved with the bills or the purchases. To be frank this system was not bad for me because I never had to pay a bill or do money related chores. To her credit she saved us a ton of money for being so anal about savings. Now that I am in charge of my own money I actually miss those days where she took care of all matters related to money.

She was also very unmaterialistic despite having free access to all my income. Having said this I am turned off by folks with greed. I actually find that greed is a highly unattractive quality in both men and women. Maybe that is why I cannot understand the behavior of this man towards Tigress. IMHO, it is cruel to treat your mate in such a manner. No wonder she feels like s****.

I can see how women have adjusted to these greedy men. Women simply rationalized that it is OK not to pool the income of the couple and that it is OK to keep score. The latter is nauseating as far as I am concerned.

October 30, 2011

This is a perfect example of why people shouldn't live together unless they plan to marry. He sounds like a roommate not a boyfriend.

Save your money and check out apartment prices, perhaps even go into open house events to see what you can get for what you could afford. Otherwise, you'll have to find someone else to live with and truly split everything down the middle because you will be roommates/housemates.

This guy isn't for you.

hey FitChick:

I generally agree with your posts 99% of the time.

October 30, 2011

I think that your best bet is not to focus on this relationship so much. You are constantly analyzing and discussing this relationship with him which can easily kill it. This is something I have been doing with my boyfriend and he told me that he hates it. He wants me to focus on other things in my life and just let the relationship "be".

October 30, 2011

I guess it is either anal, controlling, or greed.

When I was married my wife was anal about money and she needed to exert control very badly. She only worked about 30% of the time and made about 5% of my total income.

We pooled the money and in turn she paid all bills, hire contractors, and did all the saving. The only money part where I had control were in my retirement accounts.

She was very anal about dollars and would often fight with me if I wanted to tip extra in a restaurant. If I bought an expensive item she would often argue that I did not know how to purchase in an intelligent manner and would eventually find some shop where the item was on sale for less.

Her desire to control money was exhausting and I simply did not get involved with the bills or the purchases. To be frank this system was not bad for me because I never had to pay a bill or do money related chores. To her credit she saved us a ton of money for being so anal about savings. Now that I am in charge of my own money I actually miss those days where she took care of all matters related to money.

She was also very unmaterialistic despite having free access to all my income. Having said this I am turned off by folks with greed. I actually find that greed is a highly unattractive quality in both men and women. Maybe that is why I cannot understand the behavior of this man towards Tigress. IMHO, it is cruel to treat your mate in such a manner. No wonder she feels like s****.

I can see how women have adjusted to these greedy men. Women simply rationalized that it is OK not to pool the income of the couple and that it is OK to keep score. The latter is nauseating as far as I am concerned.

This is all well and good, but I think you need to understand that every relationship is different and that rather than trying to push our own personal opinion through, some of us are trying to help Tigress arrive at her own decision by helping her see various points of view. Let me tell you this: I am in a relationship in which I am a student and the bf, who earns a significant amount, insists on paying our rent and bills. I handle all the bill-related stuff for us, save coupons, scour for discounts, much as your ex-W did. Despite having had access to all his accounts and credit cards for years, I have never used any of them except to pay bills and for purchases that he asked me to make.

Unlike you and your ex-W, though, I do not attempt to control his own purchases, nor do I think I should. Neither do I believe we should legally pool our accounts until we marry.

The point I want to illustrate here, is that despite all this, I believe in not levying judgments on couples who do things differently. I believe in not calling any of them cruel or selfish just because they want to do things differently from myself. I know couples who do the 50/50 thing and it works for them. In the same way, I believe none of them have the right to judge my relationship or yours negatively just because that is not the way it works for them. Thus in any advice I give a person, I try to see things from their point of view and dynamic and offer them advice based on such. I don't give them advice trying to turn them into ME or MY relationship, I give them advice that I hope is tailored for theirs.

October 30, 2011

This is all well and good, but I think you need to understand that every relationship is different and that rather than trying to push our own personal opinion through, some of us are trying to help Tigress arrive at her own decision by helping her see various points of view. Let me tell you this: I am in a relationship in which I am a student and the bf, who earns a significant amount, insists on paying our rent and bills. I handle all the bill-related stuff for us, save coupons, scour for discounts, much as your ex-W did. Despite having had access to all his accounts and credit cards for years, I have never used any of them except to pay bills and for purchases that he asked me to make.

Unlike you and your ex-W, though, I do not attempt to control his own purchases, nor do I think I should. Neither do I believe we should legally pool our accounts until we marry.

The point I want to illustrate here, is that despite all this, I believe in not levying judgments on couples who do things differently. I believe in not calling any of them cruel or selfish just because they want to do things differently from myself. I know couples who do the 50/50 thing and it works for them. In the same way, I believe none of them have the right to judge my relationship or yours negatively just because that is not the way it works for them. Thus in any advice I give a person, I try to see things from their point of view and dynamic and offer them advice based on such. I don't give them advice trying to turn them into ME or MY relationship, I give them advice that I hope is tailored for theirs.

I agree, every couple is different. However, in the case of Tigress the man is not committed and this is the root of all the problems.

I also venture to say that couples that pool the income are more emotionally together. The inability to pool income in a relationship implies selfishness. I admire both you and your BF. Congratulations!

October 30, 2011

I agree, every couple is different. However, in the case of Tigress the man is not committed and this is the root of all the problems.

I also venture to say that couples that pool the income are more emotionally together. The inability to pool income in a relationship implies selfishness. I admire both you and your BF. Congratulations!

Your ability to nitpick at the one thing contrary to your belief in my entire post, and ignore EVERYTHING ELSE, constantly surpasses my expectations. Way to miss the elephant because you hate daisies and there was half of one stuck to its ear, dude.

So, just out of curiousity, you believe every single couple here is selfish, because all of them have mentioned that they don't pool their bank accounts til they marry? And just when do you pool your accounts with a gf? As soon as you both establish ties? Since apparently lack of merging bank accounts implies selfishness and non-commitment, and you wouldn't be that way to a gf, right?

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