Money is getting in the way.

October 29, 2011

Now I'm thinking perhaps I should move out. Perhaps he was right in suggesting that before--it's clear that he is just not ready, possibly not even willing, to commit to me, and I don't like living with someone who isn't ready or willing to commit. I have trouble feeling secure when things are like this. It's like he still wants to be casual. Because if he's into so much separation and independence...why live together at all right now? If I'm still here, there's no incentive to get him to really commit. He can always stay casual for as long as I'm willing to be okay with it.

October 29, 2011

OP

Some of the guys like Art Critic and Pierre come across very generous and must have been taken advantage of in the past in my opinion.

If there is true unselfish love this conversation about money never comes up.

The other issue is greed. I will admit I have a good income and perhaps i don't have the perspective of a penny pincher. However, there was a time when i had little money and i felt exactly the same way.

I could get burned a 1000 times by a woman and that will not change who I am as a person.

October 29, 2011

TA, if you truly feel that way, it would be good for you to move out.

Be careful not to use it as a way of 'gauging' him though - not saying that you intend to, just a fair warning. Be careful not to feel hurt when he agrees to your decision to move out.

October 29, 2011

Now I'm thinking perhaps I should move out. Perhaps he was right in suggesting that before--it's clear that he is just not ready, possibly not even willing, to commit to me, and I don't like living with someone who isn't ready or willing to commit. I have trouble feeling secure when things are like this. It's like he still wants to be casual. Because if he's into so much separation and independence...why live together at all right now? If I'm still here, there's no incentive to get him to really commit. He can always stay casual for as long as I'm willing to be okay with it.

Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

At least you have your dignity and self-respect (even if he makes more than you).

Furthermore, by being a door mat you gain nothing in this relationship.

Show him that you are a strong woman.

BTW, your idea of pooling finances is perfectly normal in committed couples.

October 29, 2011

This is why Stung mentioned tabling the issue...

Do you really want to move out or is that just a knee jerk reaction to everything that has happened in the last few days..

I can see where you're going WRT the question of where and how you will live years down the road--but I would advise you to table this issue for the time being and work on reestablishing healthy communication and trust before you choose this hill to die on.

October 29, 2011

TA, if you truly feel that way, it would be good for you to move out.

Be careful not to use it as a way of 'gauging' him though - not saying that you intend to, just a fair warning. Be careful not to feel hurt when he agrees to your decision to move out.

He will beg and cry. This is the nature of selfish controlling men. He will hate to lose the gravy train and all that extra cash in his pocket.

October 29, 2011

Tigress

Because of the way this thread is turning and you are now wondering whether you should move out, it might be worth you stepping away from LS to allow you to take a breath and allow yourself time to think without having the views of LSers add to the confusion you are already feeling. This is not a decision to be rushed and it has to be your decision, and not be made because of posts made on an internet forum by people who don't know you and your bf IRL.

October 29, 2011

I agree completely with that, anne. Nobody knows TA's relationship better than TA herself.

October 29, 2011

Tigress

Because of the way this thread is turning and you are now wondering whether you should move out, it might be worth you stepping away from LS to allow you to take a breath and allow yourself time to think without having the views of LSers add to the confusion you are already feeling. This is not a decision to be rushed and it has to be your decision, and not be made because of posts made on an internet forum by people who don't know you and your bf IRL.

Your motto:

"I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world.."

Did you miss the part where Tigress said this guy is not all in?

What is the point of living there other than being a generous room mate that provides benefits and puts extra cash in his pockets. How low must a woman go?

October 29, 2011

TA, if you truly feel that way, it would be good for you to move out.

Be careful not to use it as a way of 'gauging' him though - not saying that you intend to, just a fair warning. Be careful not to feel hurt when he agrees to your decision to move out.

I brought it up with him before and he said he didn't want me to leave, it was unfair, just please give him more time, he loves me, etc etc. But now I am wondering if 'giving him time' is just making things worse and if we'll always be stuck in this rut if I don't leave. As I said, as long as I'm here he doesn't have much incentive to put in more of a commitment.

He's afraid of commitment, he's really scared of it. He ended all his other relationships and none of them were ever serious. Perhaps he's feeling out of his depth and is trying to regain 'control' through whatever means possible. But it's turning me off and I am struggling to be patient and understanding. I honestly feel like I am dealing with a male version of myself in some ways.

October 29, 2011

Your motto:

"I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world.."

Did you miss the part where Tigress said this guy is not all in?

What is the point of living there other than being a generous room mate that provides benefits and puts extra cash in his pockets. How low must a woman go?

Did I say that there was nothing for Tigress to be concerned or worried about? No.

What I did say was that if she is going to move out then it needs to be HER decision and not one made for her by a bunch of strangers on the internet.

October 29, 2011

I agree completely with that, anne. Nobody knows TA's relationship better than TA herself.

You are correct.

However, this guy said: "I am not all in".

I would think it would be difficult to deny or rationalize that statement.

October 29, 2011

What sort of gesture do you think would demonstrate commitment from him when you are both living apart in the future, TA? Just curious.

October 29, 2011

I think it comes down to trust and commitment for me, really...I want a true partnership like I described above. Trusting that we have each other's back, and that trust being returned. I don't want that 'If it doesn't work out' stuff. I want to be deeply in love and trust and commit to my partner with EVERYTHING that I have, and have that returned to me.

IMO, that's a very serious commitment usually reserved for stable long-term couples and engaged/married people. He doesn't sound ready to go there, and that's okay, given that you two almost broke up a little while ago.

Yeah, groceries are divided 50/50. We take all the grocery receipts, add them up at the end of the month and split the total down the middle.

I suppose you're right. I don't feel secure in the relationship and I have been struggling with that ever since he admitted he wasn't 'all in'.

Honestly, in retrospect, I think you two moved in together too soon. The thought of tallying up grocery bills at the end of the month from receipts and splitting it 50/50 down to the penny is a bit bizarre to me. It's what my roommates and I did with common expenses, and if my SO wanted to do this, I would think he had lost his mind.

If he's not all in and you want him to be, I don't understand why you're living together. You clearly view the situation differently than he does, and he's not ready to see it your way yet.

Then yesterday when he said he wants to keep the 50/50 split, I mentioned, "So...India?" He said, "Yeah, you'll be paying for that unless I decide I want to help you out. I could change my mind." I just said, "Okay, that's fine." I was SO hurt, especially because he seemed so sincere when he said just the other day that he wanted so much to take me with him that he would pay for my ticket. It was an incredible reversal.

I understand why he would say that, but it is rather hurtful and, to be frank, douchey to say it that way. "...unless I decide I want to help you out." He's holding it over your head, and that doesn't sit well with me at all.

Now I'm thinking perhaps I should move out. Perhaps he was right in suggesting that before--it's clear that he is just not ready, possibly not even willing, to commit to me, and I don't like living with someone who isn't ready or willing to commit. I have trouble feeling secure when things are like this. It's like he still wants to be casual. Because if he's into so much separation and independence...why live together at all right now? If I'm still here, there's no incentive to get him to really commit. He can always stay casual for as long as I'm willing to be okay with it.

I think this may be a good idea. But I agree with everyone else saying that you need to be sure it's what you really want and that it's not based on an emotional reaction or feeling of rejection based on the conversations you just had with him.

Maybe you should wait a few days to let your emotions settle before you make a decision either way. There's no need to rush.

October 29, 2011

What sort of gesture do you think would demonstrate commitment from him when you are both living apart in the future, TA? Just curious.

Ultimate commitment means no petty discussions about money.

Commitment means they are a team and a couple that will stay together through thick and thin. Commitment means the ultimate emotional connection which Tigress does not have.

October 29, 2011

Now I'm thinking perhaps I should move out. Perhaps he was right in suggesting that before--it's clear that he is just not ready, possibly not even willing, to commit to me, and I don't like living with someone who isn't ready or willing to commit. I have trouble feeling secure when things are like this. It's like he still wants to be casual. Because if he's into so much separation and independence...why live together at all right now? If I'm still here, there's no incentive to get him to really commit. He can always stay casual for as long as I'm willing to be okay with it.

It might do you some good to live on your own. Living together can be difficult, especially early in a relationship. I don't know how long you've been together, but you might be happier establishing yourself on your own. You might feel like you are on more equal footing than you feel now.

October 29, 2011

You are correct.

However, this guy said: "I am not all in".

I would think it would be difficult to deny or rationalize that statement.

As anne said, she did not say that was okay or not okay. She simply told Tigress to give things some thought and put her own thoughts and feelings first instead of the posters' here.

You need to see things less as 'this looks black and white to me, let's tell this poster what to do and confront anyone who offers a differing viewpoint', and more of, 'let's try and help this poster realize what options she has and help her arrive at a decision that is truly of her own volition'.

October 29, 2011

Ultimate commitment means no petty discussions about money.

Commitment means they are a team and a couple that will stay together through thick and thin. Commitment means the ultimate emotional connection which Tigress does not have.

Thanks for your input, but I was really hoping for the OP's because it would reveal her mindset to allow us to assist her better.

October 29, 2011

The problem here is basic selfishness. Selfish folks are incapable of loving because they are always looking for themselves first.

In a true loving relationship there is no such thing as my money and your money. This is foreign or cannot be imagined by selfish people.

When a person is "all in" in a relationship and there is no selfishness that person does not keep score. I lived with a woman and even paid her tuition for school and I was not "all in". It was a rebound short lived relationship. I have zero regrets for giving her room and board and paying her school tuition.

With my former wife there were times when she did not work and it made zero difference to me.

This brings me to the issue of greed and materialism. This guy is all about money and Tigress will always feel that she is not pulling her weight despite putting down 50% of the expenses. This SOB probably wants even more and he would love to marry into money.

Why is Tigress attracted to such a man? Is this the Torn Curtain syndrome?

Why do people that are not committed play house?

How do you know whether or not the OP's boyfriend is incapable of loving someone and that he is selfish?

At the onset of their relationship, he offered for her to move in and stay with him for as long as she needed too after she lost her residence and job. That seems pretty "unselfish" of someone after only knowing them for a short while. He has also offered to give her his used car (whether or not he follows through with it, unsure at this point).

OP originally offered to share the living expenses 50/50 shortly after she moved in, that wasn't his asking and he even disagreed with it, saying she didn't have to contribute. Now, I do not know if her moving in was agreed by both as "temporary" until she found a job and place of her own, or what exactly. So, maybe he feels by doing that, he bit off more than he could chew and now he is trying to establish reasonable boundaries for himself (i.e. not combining finances at this juncture).

So, I am not sure (after having thought about it) where this "requirement" for her to cough up more money than she can afford, is coming from...Or, why she felt there was a need to bring up the idea of "combining finances and treating all money coming into the household as 'their' money".

Maybe for her, she believes that him agreeing with the idea, would indicate that he's in 100%. I'm not sure.

October 29, 2011

Ultimate commitment means no petty discussions about money.

Commitment means they are a team and a couple that will stay together through thick and thin. Commitment means the ultimate emotional connection which Tigress does not have.

Yeah, clearly I don't have it when I hear from between his own two lips that he is not all in, and when he also admits he's seriously considered breaking up with me every time we've argued. I don't have it when after we've been living together for almost 6 months, he tried to get me to move out.

And Els, other than a proposal (and perhaps a set wedding date), I don't even really know what a sign of his commitment would be if we were living apart.

October 29, 2011

If you do not want to live together without that sort of commitment, then, it may certainly be in your best interests to live separately until you marry.

October 29, 2011

If you do not want to live together without that sort of commitment, then, it may possibly be in your best interests to live separately until you marry.

I guess different people see moving in differently. I would never consider asking to completely pool finances before we marry, even though we are living together (I would certainly expect the bf to not nitpick over the 50/50 like yours is, but that is just me).

October 29, 2011

At the onset of their relationship, he offered for her to move in and stay with him for as long as she needed too after she lost her residence and job. That seems pretty "unselfish" of someone after only knowing them for a short while. He has also offered to give her his used car (whether or not he follows through with it, unsure at this point).

OP originally offered to share the living expenses 50/50 shortly after she moved in, that wasn't his asking and he even disagreed with it, saying she didn't have to contribute. Now, I do not know if her moving in was agreed by both as "temporary" until she found a job and place of her own, or what exactly. So, maybe he feels by doing that, he bit off more than he could chew and now he is trying to establish reasonable boundaries for himself (i.e. not combining finances at this juncture).

So, I am not sure (after having thought about it) where this "requirement" for her to cough up more money than she can afford, is coming from...Or, why she felt there was a need to bring up the idea of "combining finances and treating all money coming into the household as 'their' money".

Maybe for her, she believes that him agreeing with the idea, would indicate that he's in 100%. I'm not sure.

Yeah, you're right with all of the above, but that proposal (living together) was initially agreed upon as temporary. He changed his mind and said he didn't want me to leave because he loved having me here, etc etc. And when I moved in with him, I already had a job lined up--it was a month or so after I moved in that I had to quit and then I was unemployed/underemployed until I found the job I'm at now.

I said earlier that I get the vibe he is really scared of commitment, and 'biting off more than he could chew' does resonate well. It does seem like he got scared and wanted to back off and establish different boundaries, ones he felt more comfortable with based on how committed he is. And yeah, you are correct in that if he agreed to the combining idea, it would indicate to me that he was in 100%.

For me it's like "We've been living together for months, I can't understand why he still isn't all in." Basically after he said, "I want you to stay here with me" my commitment has increased, I am under the impression that his is too, that this is a journey we're on together. Meanwhile, on his end, he is realizing "Oh crap, I'm not ready for this, I don't want this, I need this to change, I need this to be more casual."

Edited October 29, 2011 by tigressA

October 29, 2011

Basically...the crux of the issue is that he has been backing off while I have been coming on, and living together has put a layer of complexity over this. And this did not start becoming clear to me until he started being vulnerable with me about a month ago.

I am struggling to deal with the massive imbalance. I am struggling with whether I should give him time while being in the same place, or give him time while we are apart.

October 29, 2011

T,

I think moving out may be the best thing, both for you and this relationship, and it's what I'd do personally. I agree you should calmly think about it a lot first and maybe away from LS --- and of course, only do it if you really think it would be good for YOU.

I think asking what you asked, so recently after an almost-break up, does sort of smack of wanting to be supported (I believe you when you say you didn't mean it that way, but considering he DID support you financially for so long, I can see where he's coming from too). It also smacks of a test, which I think you DID mean it to be, whether you really thought of it in those terms or not. You are a constant tester, and it's something that has been chipping away at this relationship a lot and is, I think, exacerbated by the feeling that you are so dependent on him, even now. You need to take steps towards your own independence, whether that means moving out or just getting the driving going or what, before you really seek to have a full 100% commitment with him, I think, for BOTH of your sakes.

I do agree that when you're truly committed to someone for the long haul, money does not matter. However, this man has already shown he can be supportive and generous with money, and you've already shown you can take that for granted a bit (just because you now realize it and regret it doesn't mean the damage wasn't done and won't take some time). So, money is going to be a touchy issue until a balance is maintained and kept for awhile. Maybe forever, maybe not. Instead of focusing on HIM, I would suggest focusing on what you can do for yourself to make you feel more secure in general. If that winds up bringing you and he closer, then you are a good fit. If it winds up moving you further apart, then you are in a stronger position if this ends. Win/win.

That's my advice. I don't actually think either of you is totally right or totally wrong here; I think it's a combination of circumstances and pushing each others' buttons and such. And if I were talking to him, I'd have some advice for him on examining his behavior, but I'm talking to you, and you can either change a bit and see if it works or leave. You can never ever change another person. You can only say what you need. If the combined finances is, at this point a need, he's given you the information you need to make the choice to leave him, but I personally don't see that as being what you want or even see that the finances were what you were really after.

You were after security. And you'll never ever get that by testing someone. Never happened in the history of the universe.

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