dasein Posted October 28, 2011 Posted October 28, 2011 If there's any using here, it's mutual, but I don't think jumping to the using conclusion is helpful. OP, nothing at all wrong with dating whoever and how many you like. This is the presumption today and women freely take advantage of that at least as much as men. If Cali girl starts doing special GFish things for you, then yes, it is time to disclose before accepting that kind of attention, refuse the attention or stop seeing her altogether. Same goes for women before accepting courtship treatment from men while sleeping with other men. Until then, it's up to her to bring up HER expectations and you are just dating casually, sex or not. Not that complicated if one avoids making unwarranted assumptions about the expectations of others when they haven't been told those expectations directly.
Author GreenPolicy Posted October 28, 2011 Author Posted October 28, 2011 If there's any using here, it's mutual, but I don't think jumping to the using conclusion is helpful. OP, nothing at all wrong with dating whoever and how many you like. This is the presumption today and women freely take advantage of that at least as much as men. If Cali girl starts doing special GFish things for you, then yes, it is time to disclose before accepting that kind of attention, refuse the attention or stop seeing her altogether. Same goes for women before accepting courtship treatment from men while sleeping with other men. Until then, it's up to her to bring up HER expectations and you are just dating casually, sex or not. Not that complicated if one avoids making unwarranted assumptions about the expectations of others when they haven't been told those expectations directly. Thanks. I just know how bad it hurts to be led on and when one person makes promises and commitments that they don't honor, or if they portray things and themselves as they really aren't. I mean, both of these girls are essentially still strangers in a lot of ways, so they may not like me romantically very much after getting to know me and vice versa, sex or not. I think I can avoid a lot of drama and hurt feelings simply by asking her what she wants and what her expectations are.
dasein Posted October 28, 2011 Posted October 28, 2011 That's very thoughtful of you if you choose to do that, but not your obligation. In a world where casual sex is the norm, it's adults' responsibility to express their expectations when having sex with someone who is a relative stranger. People who expect relationships to automatically grow out of casual sex and get bent out of shape and start tossing blame when that doesn't happen are the real manipulators. People who are that sensitive about intertwining sex and relationships should not be having casual sex at all.
serial muse Posted October 28, 2011 Posted October 28, 2011 She's from California and she told me early on that she wants to move back there in a couple of years. I've lived in Texas my whole life. My entire network of friends and family is here. I'd be more interested in her long-term if I thought she was going to be here long-term. I'm going to see her tonight probably and I'm going to get this all out in the open, just make sure we're on the same page. If we're having fun and dating casually, and I've made my boundaries clear, then I don't see myself as doing anything wrong. Yes, yes, yes, I read your posts, I know all that. I was saying "why not, really?" as in, why not tell her. Be honest. Then you won't have ethical doubts.
PlumPrincess Posted October 28, 2011 Posted October 28, 2011 I'd be bored with a guy who stayed with something that he considered mediocre (I'm not saying the girl is mediocre, but that's how you feel about her, so in your eyes she is mediocre), because he was too afraid to take risks and go for something he really liked.
Ruby Slippers Posted October 28, 2011 Posted October 28, 2011 Thanks. I just know how bad it hurts to be led on and when one person makes promises and commitments that they don't honor, or if they portray things and themselves as they really aren't. I mean, both of these girls are essentially still strangers in a lot of ways, so they may not like me romantically very much after getting to know me and vice versa, sex or not. I think I can avoid a lot of drama and hurt feelings simply by asking her what she wants and what her expectations are. It's good to know that other people have strong ethics, too. I'm glad you're thinking about this and doing what's right. (And being honest lowers the risk of more drama later.)
InJest Posted October 28, 2011 Posted October 28, 2011 If either of these women wants more than what's being given or wants to exercise her right make an informed decision, then it is her obligation to ask all the questions and initiate the talks. GreenPolicy, you can do whatever you want with a clear conscience, as long as you aren't lying to anyone. I think you're right in your reply to me, that you should stop spending so much time with Cali 6, and start splitting your time with them. Try to build something with the new girl, and if it gets to a serious point, then break things off with Cali 6.
waynesworld Posted October 28, 2011 Posted October 28, 2011 Slow down, you're getting ahead of yourself. You're just starting to date Cali and haven't even been on a date with OkCupid yet? I'd start by getting a date with OkCupid. Then, date both girls for a while and see which one you like better. There's nothing wrong with that; it's the whole point of dating. Once you figure that out, then worry about exclusivity and the relationship part.
Author GreenPolicy Posted October 28, 2011 Author Posted October 28, 2011 Slow down, you're getting ahead of yourself. You're just starting to date Cali and haven't even been on a date with OkCupid yet? I'd start by getting a date with OkCupid. Then, date both girls for a while and see which one you like better. There's nothing wrong with that; it's the whole point of dating. Once you figure that out, then worry about exclusivity and the relationship part. That's pretty much what I figured. I just wanted to set boundaries with Cali because if we start having sex or otherwise doing something together every single day as opposed to seeing each other once or twice a week, then she's obviously going to think of us as a couple.
verhrzn Posted October 28, 2011 Posted October 28, 2011 That's pretty much what I figured. I just wanted to set boundaries with Cali because if we start having sex or otherwise doing something together every single day as opposed to seeing each other once or twice a week, then she's obviously going to think of us as a couple. Except that's YOUR definition of what a couple does. It might not be hers. Her understanding of "this is what a girlfriend and boyfriend do" might be "They have sex and see each other once or twice a week." The only way to set boundaries is to sit her down and actually TELL her you're not interested. The guys who are claiming you have no obligations to discuss the situation with Cali 6 unless she brings it up, even though you don't want to date her, and are only keeping her around until you can get the hotter girl, are disgusting. I've had the very same situation happen to me, and it was heart-breaking. If Cali 6 agrees to this, then hey, everybody wins. But to keep hanging out with her and having sex with her without laying your feelings out on the table is only going to lead to confusing mixed signals and drama.
InJest Posted October 28, 2011 Posted October 28, 2011 The only way to set boundaries is to sit her down and actually TELL her you're not interested. The guys who are claiming you have no obligations to discuss the situation with Cali 6 unless she brings it up, even though you don't want to date her, and are only keeping her around until you can get the hotter girl, are disgusting. I've had the very same situation happen to me, and it was heart-breaking. Verhzn, you are absolving this girl of all personal responsibility, as you seem to have absolved yourself of personal responsibility. That situation you brought up was your fault. I'm sorry it ended badly for you, but if you had an expectation, it's your responsibility to let it be known.
PlumPrincess Posted October 28, 2011 Posted October 28, 2011 Except that's YOUR definition of what a couple does. It might not be hers. Her understanding of "this is what a girlfriend and boyfriend do" might be "They have sex and see each other once or twice a week." The only way to set boundaries is to sit her down and actually TELL her you're not interested. The guys who are claiming you have no obligations to discuss the situation with Cali 6 unless she brings it up, even though you don't want to date her, and are only keeping her around until you can get the hotter girl, are disgusting. I've had the very same situation happen to me, and it was heart-breaking. If Cali 6 agrees to this, then hey, everybody wins. But to keep hanging out with her and having sex with her without laying your feelings out on the table is only going to lead to confusing mixed signals and drama. I totally agree. A lot of women get attached when having sex with a guy, while the guy is fine. If he had any sense of responsibility and ethics, he would talk with the girl and then he probably would find out that she does have feelings for him. Maybe she is stupid to assume that they are in an exclusive relationship if they haven't agree on anything, but taking advantage of her stupidity isn't that great either.
InJest Posted October 28, 2011 Posted October 28, 2011 I totally agree. A lot of women get attached when having sex with a guy, while the guy is fine. If he had any sense of responsibility and ethics, he would talk with the girl and then he probably would find out that she does have feelings for him. Maybe she is stupid to assume that they are in an exclusive relationship if they haven't agree on anything, but taking advantage of her stupidity isn't that great either. Again, you're absolving women of personal responsibility. If you want something, it's on you to speak up, and act accordingly. If you only want to have sex while in a relationship, then don't have sex outside of a relationship. How hard is that?
Ruby Slippers Posted October 28, 2011 Posted October 28, 2011 Again, you're absolving women of personal responsibility. If you want something, it's on you to speak up, and act accordingly. Sure. But GreenPolicy shows good character by considering her feelings: I just wanted to set boundaries with Cali because if we start having sex or otherwise doing something together every single day as opposed to seeing each other once or twice a week, then she's obviously going to think of us as a couple. If you're seeing someone and sleeping with them regularly, no terms have been specified, and you figure out you don't want to be with them long term, being honest about that is the right thing to do. Do you HAVE to do it? No. But it's the decent thing to do, and it can spare you a lot of drama later.
Mme. Chaucer Posted October 28, 2011 Posted October 28, 2011 Continue having sex with Cali 6 as it suits your schedule, meanwhile, escalating the relationship with the "10." If it gets to the point where the "10" is into you and is willing to start a sexual relationship with you, and assuming the "10" is available to you when you want sex with her, you can have the exclusivity discussion with the "10." Once you have agreed on exclusivity with "10" then stop seeing "6." You don't owe "6" an explanation about anything, and you don't want to burn that bridge in case things with "10" don't work out. Ignore all these Negative Nancies who are trying to guilt you as to either of the women that you are pursuing/laying. From my perspective, you should ignore people who refer to other human beings as "the 10" and "the 6." OP, I read the whole thread. It seems like you have a disconnect between "currently available sexy time" and "LTR potential." What is your real priority? I actually believe that you can't pursue both successfully at the same time, because going for easily available sex NOW does not happily coexist with trying to start, develop and maintain a relationship that you'd want to last for years. If you want to have a casual sexual relationship, be up front about non-exclusivity (specifically sexually) and have fun. If your goal in relationships TODAY is to find a woman with whom you can spend years, don't be having casual sex at all. That's my advice.
verhrzn Posted October 28, 2011 Posted October 28, 2011 Verhzn, you are absolving this girl of all personal responsibility, as you seem to have absolved yourself of personal responsibility. That situation you brought up was your fault. I'm sorry it ended badly for you, but if you had an expectation, it's your responsibility to let it be known. Actually, in my situation, I DID bring it up. And I got the lines "Oh I'm not sure if I'm ready for anything serious yet but I really like you so let's just keep hanging out and see. I'm not sleeping with anyone else." All of which was technically true... but was also obscuring the truth that he DIDN'T really like me, was only "exclusive" with me because he didn't want to give up his "sure thing" until he had the hotter girl, and HAD already decided where exactly it was going to go. Pretty much exactly what this OP is planning to tell Cali 6. And guess what happened? As soon as my guy got the hotter girl, he dumped me (for not being attractive enough, natch) and is now seriously dating her. The reason the OP is struggling so mightily with his "ethical dilemma" and hasn't ALREADY told her flat out he's not interested is because he knows as soon as he does, there's a very good likelihood the sex will dry up and he'll lose his "sure thing." Situations like this put women in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" box. It's apparently the woman's job to ask for exclusivity, or be constantly haunted by the fact that the guy is using the LACK of The Talk to pursue other girls, BUT if she does it too soon, she risks scaring the guy off, or seeming needy. And guys who engage in these dating technicalities continue to have their cake and eat it too. It'd be one thing to not sit her down and tell her all of this if he was still trying to decide between Cali 6 and OKC Girl. But he's not... he's already decided. He's already going to drop Cali 6 like a hot potato if he can get the hot girl. Continuing to see her, and have sex with her, just sets up false expectations, and frankly wastes her time if she hasn't agreed to the situation.
PlumPrincess Posted October 28, 2011 Posted October 28, 2011 Again, you're absolving women of personal responsibility. If you want something, it's on you to speak up, and act accordingly. If you only want to have sex while in a relationship, then don't have sex outside of a relationship. How hard is that? I just hope the guys out there who complain about their female friends playing with them and not giving clear signals about what they want read this. Wouldn't life be much easier if they just asked her upfront how she felt for them since they are the ones who want something?
PlumPrincess Posted October 28, 2011 Posted October 28, 2011 From my perspective, you should ignore people who refer to other human beings as "the 10" and "the 6." Good point!
InJest Posted October 28, 2011 Posted October 28, 2011 Actually, in my situation, I DID bring it up. And I got the lines "Oh I'm not sure if I'm ready for anything serious yet but I really like you so let's just keep hanging out and see. I'm not sleeping with anyone else." All of which was technically true... but was also obscuring the truth that he DIDN'T really like me, was only "exclusive" with me because he didn't want to give up his "sure thing" until he had the hotter girl, and HAD already decided where exactly it was going to go. I don't understand how this is an agreement of exclusivity. Yes, you brought exclusivity up, but his response, "let's keep hanging out and see" does not constitute an affirmative agreement by any stretch. Additionally, you should have broken things off when he said this, since it didn't coincide with what you were looking for, or you shouldn't have slept with him at all until you were exclusive.
Author GreenPolicy Posted October 28, 2011 Author Posted October 28, 2011 OP, I read the whole thread. It seems like you have a disconnect between "currently available sexy time" and "LTR potential." What is your real priority? My real priority is to have a LTR. I was in a serious relationship that ended a year ago with a woman I was deeply in love with. We had agreed we were going to get married, we had informed both sets of parents, the wheels were being in motion for that and then she ended it abruptly with little explanation. I don't EVER want to hurt somebody the way she hurt me. It's not like Cali girl is some ugly spinster in waiting. She has good qualities physically, intellectually and emotionally. She is a good catch. But she's made it clear that her long-term future is not here in Texas, and mine is, unless all of my family and friends dropped dead and I had no more remaining ties. I'm 33, and I don't want to play the field and wait too much longer to get married and start a family. I wouldn't ideally want to spend 2-3 years dating this girl and then have to give her up because she wanted to move back home and I didn't want to move somewhere where she'd be the only person I know. And I've only known her for two weeks, so there's also the possibility that as we get to know each other, there will be compatibility issues that make all of that moot anyways. The point being, I'd be more willing to consider her for a LTR if she was from here or at least wanted to be here on a long-term basis. So I don't see how I'm a scumbag or a lying deceiver if I set the expectations at casual dating knowing our long-term goals and plans diverge. I wouldn't have so much of a wandering eye in this situation if I thought Cali Girl was going to be around for the next several years. OKC Girl is not just a hot body to me. She's smart, funny and we like a lot of the same things. She just moved here from Maryland and plans on being here for the long haul. Like the guy upthread said, I haven't even been on a date with her, and she might not want to date me after getting to know me better. So what's driving me starting this thread is not ever wanting to put somebody through the pain that I went through the past year. I'm not going to be the guy who starts an exclusive relationship and then secretly lines up a replacement once something "better" comes along.
InJest Posted October 28, 2011 Posted October 28, 2011 I just hope the guys out there who complain about their female friends playing with them and not giving clear signals about what they want read this. Wouldn't life be much easier if they just asked her upfront how she felt for them since they are the ones who want something? Again, that's the responsibility of those pussy, nice-guys, to ask up front. Whenever I meet a girl I'm interested in, I make my move within the first couple times we meet, and if she's not with it, I cut her out for good and keep it moving.
Ruby Slippers Posted October 28, 2011 Posted October 28, 2011 Actually, in my situation, I DID bring it up. And I got the lines "Oh I'm not sure if I'm ready for anything serious yet but I really like you so let's just keep hanging out and see. I'm not sleeping with anyone else." "I'm not sure I'm ready" means he's not that into you. Period. That you chose to wait around for him to "figure out" if he liked you enough was your choice. It's unfortunate you got hurt, but he was honest -- you just didn't want to face the real truth. Hopefully, you learned from this and won't make the same mistake again. Situations like this put women in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" box. It's apparently the woman's job to ask for exclusivity, or be constantly haunted by the fact that the guy is using the LACK of The Talk to pursue other girls, BUT if she does it too soon, she risks scaring the guy off, or seeming needy. Not true. I have never once asked for exclusivity. Every guy I've had a serious relationship with asked for it. If I was seeing a guy I saw long-term potential with and he didn't make that move, I'd assume he wasn't that into me and move on. Simple as that.
InJest Posted October 28, 2011 Posted October 28, 2011 "I'm not sure I'm ready" means he's not that into you. Period. That you chose to wait around for him to "figure out" if he liked you enough was your choice. It's unfortunate you got hurt, but he was honest -- you just didn't want to face the real truth. Hopefully, you learned from this and won't make the same mistake again. Not true. I have never once asked for exclusivity. Every guy I've had a serious relationship with asked for it. If I was seeing a guy I saw long-term potential with and he didn't make that move, I'd assume he wasn't that into me and move on. Simple as that. DING! DING! DING! We have a winner!!!
serial muse Posted October 28, 2011 Posted October 28, 2011 Again, that's the responsibility of those pussy, nice-guys, to ask up front. Whenever I meet a girl I'm interested in, I make my move within the first couple times we meet, and if she's not with it, I cut her out for good and keep it moving. OK, but then you and the OP have different goals. My real priority is to have a LTR. I was in a serious relationship that ended a year ago with a woman I was deeply in love with. We had agreed we were going to get married, we had informed both sets of parents, the wheels were being in motion for that and then she ended it abruptly with little explanation. I don't EVER want to hurt somebody the way she hurt me. ...bolded is what he says he wants to avoid. Therefore, I think that means he should be up front himself with the Cali girl, in order to be consistent with his own ethical code. The best way to avoid causing this potential confusion hurt to another person is to take action and be direct.
Author GreenPolicy Posted October 28, 2011 Author Posted October 28, 2011 Not true. I have never once asked for exclusivity. Every guy I've had a serious relationship with asked for it. If I was seeing a guy I saw long-term potential with and he didn't make that move, I'd assume he wasn't that into me and move on. Simple as that. In those situations, regardless of how far things had progressed sexually or not, until the "exclusive" talk was brought up, did you basically assume that both parties were free to see other people, regardless of how affectionate and into each other you were?
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