Article about men should blame themselves for being in the friend zone

[joystickd]

I have no problem with a man being "just friends" with a woman if his desire for an indefinite platonic friendship with a woman is genuine. The vast majority of single, heterosexual men already know: very rarely does any man intentionally "seek out" a permanent platonic friendship with any woman if he finds her physically attractive and/or sexually appealing. Any woman who can make us "rise to the occasion" is automatically excluded from platonic friendship material.

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I am very critical of men who pretend to be content with a platonic friendship with a woman, when they know deep-down that they want to date a woman, or at minimum, have some form of casual sex with a woman. I am equally critical of women who categorize men as their 'play brother' when they know damn well that this man would rather be exchanging orgasms with them than playing a friendly game of Monopoly with them on a Friday night. I have a nickname for such disingenuous "friendships." I refer to that type of phony relationship as "FunClubbing" (Click Here for my infamous "Are You FunClubbing?" Quiz).

 

A fraternity brother of mine came up with that term back when I was a freshman at Indiana University in Bloomington, Indiana. He said, "Alan ... never allow yourself to become a member of a woman's 'Let's Hang Out Socially Just-for-Fun Club.' In the long-run, you will always end up feeling frustrated and bitter." His advice to me was that once you allow yourself to become part of a woman's fan club of admirers, would-be suitors, listening ears, social 'hangin' out' partners, and other variations of platonic companions, there is a 99.9% chance that you will never end up dating that woman or sleeping with that woman. More than likely, you will end up in "The Friend Zone" until they put you six feet under.

 

I have very few true platonic female friends. I mean, in the most true sense of the word, "friend." Sure, there are some women who I am closer with than others, but if you were to compare the degree of interaction between my Top Five male friends, and my Top Five female friends, it would not even be remotely close. My own late mother once criticized me, saying a few years back, "Son ... do you have ANY women in your life who you just enjoy being around them just for the sake of good conversation and friendly companionship?" It took me more than ten minutes to answer that question. In my defense, how many times did you see James Bond hanging around women in a strictly platonic manner in films? Exactly.

 

Some men blame women for placing them in the dreaded Friend Zone. "I can't believe she keeps treating me like 'just a friend' ... that is so cold!" No it is not. Point the finger at yourself. Ultimately, if a woman relegates you to the Friend Zone, it is because you are allowing her to do so. With most women I interact with, my attitude is usually, "either you and I are going to date ... or I want nothing to do with you." (Think of Shemar Moore's character of Orlando in Diary of a Mad Black Woman; that is how he was with Kimberly Elise's character of "Helen") Same attitude if my interest leans more toward casual sex. If a woman does not reciprocate my sexual desires and interests, there is a 99% chance that she will never hear from me. I refuse to be any woman's indefinite "play brother." I am not going to suppress my true romantic and/or sexual interests in the name of "friendship."

 

Over the years, I have had so many female acquaintances lightheartedly 'brag' about how many "male friends" they have. Yeah, right. Get real. You know that four out of every five men who you think are your "friends" would sex you up if given the chance. You say you disagree? Ask one of your beloved male "friends" this all-important question the next time you are in his presence:

 

"Hey [insert male friend's first name here] ... can I ask you something? Let's say there were two or three days per month where I just got really, really horny. Could you and I engage in a 'Friends with Benefits' relationship that would allow us to relieve some stress and tension without messing up the basic foundation of our friendship? Would that be possible??"

 

If your male friend's response is, "Eewwwwwwww ... that is gross. I want to throw up in my mouth now. That is such an incestuous suggestion. Don't you realize ... I look at you like my real sister!! What a sick thought," then you are good. This man is either going to be the best male friend you could ever ask for ... or he is gay (which means he would still be the best male friend you could ever ask for).

 

If your male friend's response is, "Hmmmm. Interesting proposition. I would not have a problem with that arrangement, but I have to warn you ... things could get complicated between us. Emotional bonding could happen, and that sort of thing," then you have a smart male friend on your hands. Make no mistake ... this man wants to have sex with you, but he wants to make sure that you understand all that a "friends-with-benefits" relationship would entail. He knows after he takes care of business in bed, you are going to "catch feelings." Or so his ego leads him to believe.

 

If your male friend's response is, "Hell yeah!! Are you talking about TONIGHT?? Let's do this sh**!!!!" then this guy was never really your "play brother" from the get-go. This man was horny for you from the start, and was simply playing the role. Trust me ... the third response will come from no less than 50-60% of your "male friends."

 

Face the reality: Women, generally speaking, value platonic friendships with men far more than the average man values platonic friendships with women. Are there exceptions? Of course. I mean, there are some people on this earth who don't like chicken wings or Peach Snapple. Go figure.

 

 

• Good conversation? Men can get that from other men.
  
• Words of wisdom about women? Advice from other men has always been more useful to men than advice from women.
  
• Someone to see a good movie with? Men have no problems going to action movies by themselves. And they only go see "chick flicks" because their girlfriends or wives twist their arms.
  
• Someone to play EA Sports' Madden NFL with? Okay. That was a joke.
  
• Someone to engage in gossip with? Men don't like to gossip with women. If men gossip, they do so with other men.
  
• Someone to watch porn with? You know how that will end up.
  
• Someone to offer career advice and/or financial advice? That is not a friend. That is a business consultant.
  
• Someone to cook chicken wings and peach cobbler? Okay, okay. You got me. I've never had a male friend make me peach cobbler, and if he did, I would think that was totally . . . well, you know.
  

 

Bottom line: Again, I have nothing against single, heterosexual men being platonic friends with single, heterosexual women as long as the interest is mutual and sincere. But if one of the two is "faking the funk," then what is the point. Someone is going to feel used and bitter in the end. Whether it is a year later, three years later, five years later, or ten years later (seriously ... I know of situations where a man and a woman were "just friends" for 10+ years, only to have a major falling out because one of the two finally revealed their "true" feelings and interests).

 

In the mid-90s, I once even heard a minister during a sermon at my former church in Los Angeles say, "God did not put man and woman on earth to be platonic friends. God put man and woman on earth to date, get married, and reproduce themselves." AMEN to that.

 

I cannot wait for my Email responses from my female readers on this one. Ha! "Alan, you are such a sexist, chauvinistic, #@$&%*!!" will probably be the norm. Bring it. I can take it. And for those female friends of mine who suggested that we sit in the hot tub together ... naked ... uhm, no. Eewwwwwww. That is gross. I look at you all as sisters!!!

 

Okay, I'm lying. That would be an interesting proposition ... I would not have a problem with that arrangement, but I have to warn you .... well, you get my drift.

[Mrlonelyone]

Good one. Men who allow themselves to be used as described here have only themselves to blame. Just as women who let players and bastards use them for sex do.

[Cypress25]

Well, duh. True friendship should be genuine and sincere from both sides. There, I just summed up your lengthy article. It's not a new concept.

[somedude81]

What about the guys who are insecure of themselves so they didn't explicitly tell the woman what he wanted upfront and a friendship just happened?

 

What about the guy who actually developed feelings for the girl, after the friendship formed?

 

What about the guys who simply have no clue how to pursue a woman and thought, going for friendship was the right way?

[Cypress25]

What about the guy who actually developed feelings for the girl, after the friendship formed?

 

This can't be prevented. Sometimes you fall for your friends, it happens. At that point, the guy has to decide if he can remain her friend or if it will be too painful for him.

 

What about the guys who are insecure of themselves so they didn't explicitly tell the woman what he wanted upfront and a friendship just happened?

 

What about the guys who simply have no clue how to pursue a woman and thought, going for friendship was the right way?

 

Live and learn.

[AHardDaysNight]

If feelings formed for the guy, and there were no feelings from the girl, then there was never any platonic friendship. He always wanted to screw her.

 

As for this article, I definitely agree with it. I've had very few real female friends, then.

[joystickd]

What about the guys who are insecure of themselves so they didn't explicitly tell the woman what he wanted upfront and a friendship just happened?

 

What about the guy who actually developed feelings for the girl, after the friendship formed?

 

What about the guys who simply have no clue how to pursue a woman and thought, going for friendship was the right way?

 

Look you got balls use them just go out there and talk to women. A few nights ago I got a number by just saying hey you single. Cut the small talk and get to the point all they can say is yes or no. It a numbers game out here and you are the prize. Think about it.

 

Prize I mean how many women have you heard that their friend had sex with their boyfriend or husband. Men say hey i wish I could meet a girl like her and women are like I want him. Some not all of them. Dont worry about being friends you just want sex and if it leads to something more so be it.

[somedude81]

This can't be prevented. Sometimes you fall for your friends, it happens. At that point, the guy has to decide if he can remain her friend or if it will be too painful for him.

Does that ever happen the other way? Girls getting feelings for their guy friends?

[verhrzn]

Perhaps this is the upside to being seen as an unattractive girl; you never need to worry that somehow just by being some guy's friend you're messing with their head. I can say with 99.9% certainty that the friendship between me and my guy friends is nothing except platonic.

 

Of course, attitudes like this also spawn controlling and jealous relationships. After all, why would I want to date a guy who had more than a handful of female friends... by most guys' testimony, the guy wants to sleep with/date every single one of them, so it's stupid to believe he can be trusted to be "just platonic" with them. Right?

[joystickd]

I will admit some of the coolest female platonic friends were lesbians. They gave real advice about meeting women not the bull most heterosexual women give. Its kind of like women having that gay guy friend.

[Tayla]

I often enjoy reading how folks comprise responses - There are those that love to toss around the word "blame"...its a wonderful negative mindset to weed out the negative thinkers from the realistic thinkers. A realistic person would say that the person is accountable for their actions and sometimes make poor judgment calls based on the circumstance, a negative thinker who lacks the ability to "think" beyond the dark area of thought process simply will "blame" the person and not put things in proper prospective. Basically a Blamer enjoys taking the "entire" person and making a quick judgment call . I think I'll simply say that some guys who are true "gents" carry the ability to desire a lady beyond friendship and in some ways harbor further desires underneath the surface yet kindly do not act upon it. They know where to draw the line.

 

As the saying goes, it takes two to tango and I beleive that in this matter each are equally accountable for either mis-leading or mis-interpreting anothers actions or intents.

[somedude81]

Perhaps this is the upside to being seen as an unattractive girl; you never need to worry that somehow just by being some guy's friend you're messing with their head. I can say with 99.9% certainty that the friendship between me and my guy friends is nothing except platonic.

I've actually developed feelings for female friends I didn't consider attractive or were anything at all like my type.

 

I just enjoyed their personality, spending time with them, and wanted more. Though I'm sure the whole lonely thing I have going, helped those feelings develop.

Of course, attitudes like this also spawn controlling and jealous relationships. After all, why would I want to date a guy who had more than a handful of female friends... by most guys' testimony, the guy wants to sleep with/date every single one of them, so it's stupid to believe he can be trusted to be "just platonic" with them. Right?

Just because a guy wants to sleep with all his female friends doesn't mean that he would actually do so when he's in a relationship. But it really is down to the individual guys personality.

 

Personally, I have a few female friends that I'd like to be with. But if I ever got the one I really want, I'd turn all the others down even if they threw themselves at me.

[Cypress25]

Does that ever happen the other way? Girls getting feelings for their guy friends?

 

Sure it does. Women have feelings too. You just don't hear about it much because women don't complain about the friend zone the way guys do. Guys tend to blame the woman for their feelings ("she put me in the friend zone...she is messing with my head" etc), whereas women tend to take responsibility for their own feelings ("I fell for him...I developed feelings for him" etc). If you fall for your friend, it's not your friend's fault!

 

Women also value friendship more in general, so they don't see it as a terrible thing if they have to settle for being friends with their crush. Of course they feel disappointed and a little jealous when they see their crush dating other people, but the pain isn't so great that they can't continue the friendship. Whereas men think it's pointless to spend time with their crush if they don't get to have sex with her, so they abandon the friendship. Most women don't think friendship is pointless, so they don't complain about it.

[verhrzn]

Just because a guy wants to sleep with all his female friends doesn't mean that he would actually do so when he's in a relationship. But it really is down to the individual guys personality.

 

Personally, I have a few female friends that I'd like to be with. But if I ever got the one I really want, I'd turn all the others down even if they threw themselves at me.

 

But what if the one you really wanted friend-zoned you, and then once you had a girlfriend suddenly started to show feelings for you?

 

That's what always seems to happen to me... Guy has a huge crush on his female friend. Female friend rejects him. Guy and I start dating. Suddenly the female friend is jealous and possessive... and he takes her side, because loyalty to friends and (deep down) he still has a hope that she wants him.

 

It's awful to be in a relationship with someone because the girl they really wanted friend-zoned them.

[AHardDaysNight]

It's awful to be in a relationship with someone because the girl they really wanted friend-zoned them.

 

I fail to understand how you can have such low self esteem.

 

I bet, in your circle of friends, there are at least 4 guys who want to sleep with you.

[verhrzn]

I fail to understand how you can have such low self esteem.

 

I bet, in your circle of friends, there are at least 4 guys who want to sleep with you.

 

Nope. I took a poll.

 

Also, that isn't the point. The point is that, IF it's true that guys always want to sleep with their attractive friends... then what's the point of ever dating a guy with cute female friends? It pretty much affirms girls' jealousy and distrust... that they SHOULDN'T trust their guy, that the only reason he's with them is cause he can't be with her.

[somedude81]

Sure it does. Women have feelings too.

That's actually a bit of a surprise.

 

A part of me believed that women didn't develop feelings for guys until after they've had sex. Then I was wondering why women were sleeping with guys they didn't have feelings for in the first place.

 

You just don't hear about it much because women don't complain about the friend zone the way guys do. Guys tend to blame the woman for their feelings ("she put me in the friend zone...she is messing with my head" etc), whereas women tend to take responsibility for their own feelings ("I fell for him...I developed feelings for him" etc). If you fall for your friend, it's not your friend's fault!

I think the reason you don't hear about it as much from women, is because they don't get turned down nearly as much as men do.

 

The vast majority of single guys would date their female friend if she developed feelings for him. For the other way around, that isn't the case. The woman would just say nonsense like, "It would ruin the friendship." Or "I don't feel any chemistry between us, never mind the fact that we hold no secrets from each other and I love your company."

 

Women also value friendship more in general, so they don't see it as a terrible thing if they have to settle for being friends with their crush. Of course they feel disappointed and a little jealous when they see their crush dating other people, but the pain isn't so great that they can't continue the friendship. Whereas men think it's pointless to spend time with their crush if they don't get to have sex with her, so they abandon the friendship. Most women don't think friendship is pointless, so they don't complain about it.

Women get crushes? Basically the same thing I said in my first sentence.

 

I think one reason men get hurt more is because we simply get rejected more. So a crushing turning us down is another rejection. Which means we have to find a new girl and she might reject us as well.

But what if the one you really wanted friend-zoned you, and then once you had a girlfriend suddenly started to show feelings for you?

While I'm not 100% sure how I feel, but I'm guessing I would end things with my current girlfriend. I'd try to be as nice as possible about it, but there is no way it wouldn't suck for her.

 

That's what always seems to happen to me... Guy has a huge crush on his female friend. Female friend rejects him. Guy and I start dating. Suddenly the female friend is jealous and possessive... and he takes her side, because loyalty to friends and (deep down) he still has a hope that she wants him.

 

It's awful to be in a relationship with someone because the girl they really wanted friend-zoned them.

It's too bad that happened to you. There really was nothing you can do.

 

If anything, it talks about the evil of women, how she only wants the guy because somebody else has him. That's how children react. Only wanting a toy because somebody else is playing with it.

 

Though what do you mean "take her side?" Did he break up with you and start dating her?

[somedude81]

Nope. I took a poll.

 

Also, that isn't the point. The point is that, IF it's true that guys always want to sleep with their attractive friends... then what's the point of ever dating a guy with cute female friends? It pretty much affirms girls' jealousy and distrust... that they SHOULDN'T trust their guy, that the only reason he's with them is cause he can't be with her.

You're jumping to conclusions.

 

I think it's better to say, that you shouldn't date guys who have had a crush on one of their female friends. And that's only if she's the jealous type who would try to steal him.

 

Though that may be how all women are. I don't know.

[Cypress25]

The point is that, IF it's true that guys always want to sleep with their attractive friends... then what's the point of ever dating a guy with cute female friends? It pretty much affirms girls' jealousy and distrust... that they SHOULDN'T trust their guy, that the only reason he's with them is cause he can't be with her.

I think you're confusing "wants to sleep with" and "in love with." Just because a guy wants to have sex with his attractive female friends doesn't mean he's in love with them. If he's in a relationship with a girl, obviously he prefers her over his female friends, since he actually has feelings for his girlfriend. With his female friends, it's just lust. With his girlfriend, it's so much more than that.

 

Most healthy, heterosexual men want to have sex with every attractive woman they see. It doesn't mean they're going to abandon their wife or girlfriend to do just that. Because they don't have feelings for every pretty girl on the street. It's just vague lust, nothing more.

[betterdeal]

Nope. I took a poll.

 

Also, that isn't the point. The point is that, IF it's true that guys always want to sleep with their attractive friends... then what's the point of ever dating a guy with cute female friends? It pretty much affirms girls' jealousy and distrust... that they SHOULDN'T trust their guy, that the only reason he's with them is cause he can't be with her.

 

When you're on a diet you can still look in the fridge. It's unrealistic to expect a partner, male or female, to not fancy other people. Many couples get along fine with full knowledge that they each fancy certain celebrities. It's just sex.

Edited October 27, 2011 by betterdeal

[Cypress25]

A part of me believed that women didn't develop feelings for guys until after they've had sex.

 

LOL, no, it's men who do that. For women, it's usually the other way around. We'd rather have an emotional connection with a man before having sex with him. Personally, I would not be capable of having sex with a guy unless I already had strong feelings for him. How would I enjoy sex with someone I don't have feelings for? I don't even know how that would work.

 

The woman would just say nonsense like, "It would ruin the friendship." Or "I don't feel any chemistry between us, never mind the fact that we hold no secrets from each other and I love your company."

 

That's not nonsense. Obviously, she's not sexually attracted to this male friend of hers, so why would she date him? That's what chemistry is, you know. Sexual attraction. Without it, you can't have a sexual relationship.

 

Women get crushes?

 

LOL, of course we do. And some women are shy, so their crushes might never know how they really feel.

[verhrzn]

You're jumping to conclusions.

 

I think it's better to say, that you shouldn't date guys who have had a crush on one of their female friends. And that's only if she's the jealous type who would try to steal him.

 

Though that may be how all women are. I don't know.

 

How is it jumping to conclusions? You just said in your previous post that you WOULD dump the gf is the female friend you actually wanted suddenly turned around and wanted you.

 

And how are girls supposed to know if their boyfriend has a crush on their female friend? Guys will deny it up, right, left, down and center, even while they're drooling all over the friend. So what's a girl to do... believe the guy and (potentially) get screwed over, or distrust him and be accused of being insecure/jealous/controlling?

 

For example, that FWB I've mentioned (no freaking idea what label he is right now) has TONS of female friends, many of whom he is fairly close to. Some of them he's had friends with benefits with, some of them he just "cuddles with in a platonic way." (He doesn't now, as he says they agreed it was 'awkward' now that they were both interested in dating someone.) He gets very upset that I don't really buy that his friendship with this girl is platonic... He says that's "just how he acts" with female friends when he's unattached. So should I believe him? Or is this yet another case of he got friend-zoned, and I got the left overs?

[betterdeal]

For example, that FWB I've mentioned (no freaking idea what label he is right now) has TONS of female friends, many of whom he is fairly close to. Some of them he's had friends with benefits with, some of them he just "cuddles with in a platonic way." (He doesn't now, as he says they agreed it was 'awkward' now that they were both interested in dating someone.) He gets very upset that I don't really buy that his friendship with this girl is platonic... He says that's "just how he acts" with female friends when he's unattached. So should I believe him? Or is this yet another case of he got friend-zoned, and I got the left overs?

 

Why read more into it when you are already uncomfortable with what you can see? You don't like that he has tactile relationships with other women. So you're not suited to one another. Move on.

[Mrlonelyone]

There are at least two maybe three distinct things going on here. Not all male-female friendships can be characterized by one stereotype.

 

Boy meets girl.

Boy is attracted to girl

Girl is not attracted to boy and offer's "friendship".

Boy accepts just to be near girl ( who may have several men in orbit like this.

 

That is almost always an insincere friendship. Such a boy has no reason to blame the woman for her feelings or his being "friendzoned". She was being honest about her feelings, he was not being honest about his. Therefore it is his fault and he is to blame.*

 

 

Boy meets girl

Boy and girl build friendship before feeling anything.

 

That can be a real friendship and strictly speaking is not the "friendzone" Those happen too. It does not end there.

 

 

Boy realizes that girl would make a great girlfriend.

Girl does not want to chance losing a real good friend.

Girl and boy have a friendship filled with mutual sexual tension which either morphs into a relationship or ends the friendship.

 

Those are very different scenario's.

 

*Using a softer synonym for blame and responsibility does not make you smart. It just means you have a thesaurus.

[somedude81]

LOL, no, it's men who do that.

Uh Cypress. We are posting in a thread about the friendzone. Know what that is? It's the place were men who have feelings for their female friends go when they've been turned down by their friend. Those guys never had sex with their friend.

 

Even now, I'm probably in love with one of my female friends and I haven't even kissed her yet.

 

For women, it's usually the other way around. We'd rather have an emotional connection with a man before having sex with him.

I've read and heard many things to the contrary. That the best way to get a girl to fall for you, is to sleep with her. Of course the trick is how. I think alcohol would be the answer.

 

Personally, I would not be capable of having sex with a guy unless I already had strong feelings for him. How would I enjoy sex with someone I don't have feelings for? I don't even know how that would work.

Maybe most girls are different from you? I really don't know how things work.

 

All I know is that the girls who have developed emotional connections with me, never wanted to date me

 

 

 

That's not nonsense. Obviously, she's not sexually attracted to this male friend of hers, so why would she date him? That's what chemistry is, you know. Sexual attraction. Without it, you can't have a sexual relationship.

So which is it; an emotional connection or sexual attraction?

 

LOL, of course we do. And some women are shy, so their crushes might never know how they really feel.

Funny that you mentioned that.

 

I just remembered some girl coming up to me in Jack in the Box, and telling me the her friend, that I don't remember at all, used to like me in High School. That didn't really do me any good. I'm sure I would have given her a chance if she actually let me know back then. But hearing about it years after the fact, was pointless.

How is it jumping to conclusions? You just said in your previous post that you WOULD dump the gf is the female friend you actually wanted suddenly turned around and wanted you.

I think you should re-read the posts I made.

 

I have feelings for that female friend. I don't have feelings for all my female friends.

 

You are saying that you shouldn't date a guy who has female friends, period. And no, it doesn't matter how hot they are.

 

 

And how are girls supposed to know if their boyfriend has a crush on their female friend? Guys will deny it up, right, left, down and center, even while they're drooling all over the friend. So what's a girl to do... believe the guy and (potentially) get screwed over, or distrust him and be accused of being insecure/jealous/controlling?

Hopefully, you could believe the guy. I know I would answer truthfully and really hope she doesn't ask, "If X starts to develop feelings for you, would you leave me?" That's one of those questions that's just better left unasked.

For example, that FWB I've mentioned (no freaking idea what label he is right now) has TONS of female friends, many of whom he is fairly close to. Some of them he's had friends with benefits with, some of them he just "cuddles with in a platonic way." (He doesn't now, as he says they agreed it was 'awkward' now that they were both interested in dating someone.) He gets very upset that I don't really buy that his friendship with this girl is platonic... He says that's "just how he acts" with female friends when he's unattached. So should I believe him? Or is this yet another case of he got friend-zoned, and I got the left overs?

He's still friends with girls he slept with?

 

I really hope you aren't planning on getting anywhere serious with him.

 

I've seen, platonic cuddling, and it's pretty gross. I know a girl in my dance class who was doing that with a guy, while she had a boyfriend. It looked completely unacceptable.

 

I'm obviously inexperienced in these matters, but it seems like a situation where lines can be crossed.

 

Same for your FWB. Most importantly, don't focus on his words. Pay attention to what he does.