One non-physical thing that attracts a man

[Woggle]

I suspect that the subtext here is that women should be more understanding of why men mistrust women

 

I wouldn't put it like that but I wish they didn't see us as these one dimensional unfeeling creatures. We are complex human beings just like women are.

[serial muse]

I wouldn't put it like that but I wish they didn't see us as these one dimensional unfeeling creatures. We are complex human beings just like women are.

 

I honestly don't think that most women do see men as one-dimensional, unfeeling creatures. Those that do have their own issues, and likely don't think much of people in general.

[carhill]

So, what is it that you wish more women were understanding of

 

Generally, that the range of thoughts and emotions which exist in them and for which they desire and expect validation, understanding and support are the same for a man. The specifics might be different but the psychology of connection is the same.

 

I'll provide a short and specific personal example of the positive:

 

Recently, I was having beers at my best friend's house and his CEO dropped by with his wife, whom I hadn't seen in a number of years. BF and CEO went off to try out a new gun BF had bought and I caught up with his wife. She asked me how I had been doing and I casually mentioned that the past year hadn't been so good but I was recovering OK, as I had assumed CEO, who's been a friend for about 15 years, had told his wife about my divorce and mother's death. Wrong assumption. So, here is this lady shocked by the news but instantly switches to comfort and compassion mode, engaging me about the details and proactively offering support and compassion and asking for some advice as one of her relatives has Alzheimer's (what my mom died of)...bla, bla, we're still at it when BF and CEO come back and it was like the interceding years had not happened. I caught up on her three kids lives and how the family was doing and, when they left, she and I gave each other a hug and wished each other well.

 

Those kinds of things stand out in my mind. In that thirty minutes she, as a friend's wife, showed more apparent compassion and understanding than I likely received in the first year of my mom's illness from my exW. Understanding about sorrow, about fear, about small joys in the pain, on and on. OTOH, I shared understanding with CEO's wife about the joys in their lives, their children, while empathizing with the realities of her relatives struggle with mental illness.

 

OK, that's one example..... it may seem inconsequential but, when one has seen a dearth of such understanding in their life, little things stand out. Carry on.

[snug.bunny]

I suspect that the subtext here is that women should be more understanding of why men mistrust women

 

I honestly don't know what the subtext is here. I guess I should just be understanding/supportive even though I have no idea what it is like to be a man.

 

I suppose some men mistrust women for the same reason women mistrust men. So yeah, we can relate. We should be able to relate to each other in that sense, right?

[snug.bunny]

Generally, that the range of thoughts and emotions which exist in them and for which they desire and expect validation, understanding and support are the same for a man. The specifics might be different but the psychology of connection is the same.

 

I'll provide a short and specific personal example of the positive:

 

Recently, I was having beers at my best friend's house and his CEO dropped by with his wife, whom I hadn't seen in a number of years. BF and CEO went off to try out a new gun BF had bought and I caught up with his wife. She asked me how I had been doing and I casually mentioned that the past year hadn't been so good but I was recovering OK, as I had assumed CEO, who's been a friend for about 15 years, had told his wife about my divorce and mother's death. Wrong assumption. So, here is this lady shocked by the news but instantly switches to comfort and compassion mode, engaging me about the details and proactively offering support and compassion and asking for some advice as one of her relatives has Alzheimer's (what my mom died of)...bla, bla, we're still at it when BF and CEO come back and it was like the interceding years had not happened. I caught up on her three kids lives and how the family was doing and, when they left, she and I gave each other a hug and wished each other well.

 

Those kinds of things stand out in my mind. In that thirty minutes she, as a friend's wife, showed more apparent compassion and understanding than I likely received in the first year of my mom's illness from my exW. Understanding about sorrow, about fear, about small joys in the pain, on and on. OTOH, I shared understanding with CEO's wife about the joys in their lives, their children, while empathizing with the realities of her relatives struggle with mental illness.

 

OK, that's one example..... it may seem inconsequential but, when one has seen a dearth of such understanding in their life, little things stand out. Carry on.

 

That's a good example Carhill. Thank you for clarifying.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Originally Posted by serial muse

I suspect that the subtext here is that women should be more understanding of why men mistrust women

 

Haha! Touche!

[xxoo]

. In that thirty minutes she, as a friend's wife, showed more apparent compassion and understanding than I likely received in the first year of my mom's illness from my exW. Understanding about sorrow, about fear, about small joys in the pain, on and on. OTOH, I shared understanding with CEO's wife about the joys in their lives, their children, while empathizing with the realities of her relatives struggle with mental illness.

 

Your exwife aside, do you feel that women are generally lacking in this type of compassion?

 

In my experience, women are more comfortable providing this type of emotional support than men. You may be the exception. Do your male friends listen and share as easily as CEO's wife?

 

An example from my life: my H and I have a very good friend, someone we've known over 20 years. This was originally my H's friend, but he and I have become close over the years. When he goes through tough times, he calls. My H listens, wishes he could help, and says "Hold on....let me get xxoo......", and then I step into a role similar to CEO wife above.

 

Is this really an area where women, as a group, fall short?

[mike111]

How can you have a relationship with a man if you don't even care about what makes us tick?

 

 

I think for most men (me included) it's the physical appearance they see first. But that attractiveness quickly wears off if there is nothing else behind it.

[xxoo]

I know what makes my partner tick.

 

That doesn't mean I know what makes all the men of LS tick, though, or that I would want to in some cases

[thatone]

 

An example from my life: my H and I have a very good friend, someone we've known over 20 years. This was originally my H's friend, but he and I have become close over the years. When he goes through tough times, he calls. My H listens, wishes he could help, and says "Hold on....let me get xxoo......", and then I step into a role similar to CEO wife above.

 

Is this really an area where women, as a group, fall short?

 

yeah, a lot of women fall short.

 

but for the same reasons men do, in all likelihood. men get burned by bad women and thus distrust/mistreat all of the other women they meet not necessarily for revenge, but just due to learned behavior. the same way if you kick a dog, next time he'll run from you, he isn't stupid.

 

the women in question are the same way. but the difference in men and women is the gender roles don't allow men to exhibit these bad behaviors without penalty. they at least have to feign compassion and romance to get women to trust them initially, whereas women can convince themselves that what they're doing is fine. after all, men still approach them all the time, and the men who are just looking to get laid will put up with their issues for at least that long. as a result, many of them never once stopped to question that their behaviors were wrong, it's always someone else's fault. that's the result of a person living to be 25+ years old and no one ever telling them 'no'.

[El Brujo]

Is actually understanding men. I notice with some women on here they have a very hard time seeing where men come from. They don't get us no matter how hard we try to explain our point of view.

 

They either don't know or don't care which is even worse. How can you have a relationship with a man if you don't even care about what makes us tick? I have found that women who do the best with men truly understand us and genuinely empathize with our lives and what drives us.

 

When most men see that a woman truly understands us or is at least interested in truly it is very much a turn on.

 

You pretty much summed up the reason why I consider common interests between a man and a woman to be a must for any loving relationship.

 

Nobody's going to stay attracted to someone who likes totally different things and doesn't understand yours.

[FitChick]

men get burned by bad women and thus distrust/mistreat all of the other women they meet not necessarily for revenge, but just due to learned behavior. the same way if you kick a dog, next time he'll run from you, he isn't stupid.

 

Dogs are smarter than people. They will run from the bad person who mistreated them but still wag their tail when a stranger pets them because the stranger hasn't hurt them. People should be more like dogs.

[carhill]

Your exwife aside, do you feel that women are generally lacking in this type of compassion?

The fact that the example I cited stood out so prominently underscores the real life experiences I've had. Off the top of my head, I can think of two or three women, two which are friend's wives and one which is a friend's daughter, who have been consistently proactively caring and compassionate over the years. I do recall one past lover being proactively caring and compassionate. The fact that I consider her to be my mistake (for not continuing, mainly due to the long distance involved) probably underscores how rare that quality has been extant in my romantic life. The vast majority of other contacts have been been, predominantly, neutral to uncaring. I don't recall, at the time, thinking such people were 'bad', but rather wondering where the balance point should be. As a default, I look to how women value and respond to the care and compassion I show them and how they validate and enable that kind of behavior. My experience has been, generally, that women, from friends to lovers to spouse, like that I care about how they feel and seek to understand them but that's pretty much where the 'like' has ended. After enough 'benefit of the doubt', I generally move on from such dynamics, since they're unbalanced.

 

I think I honestly noticed the disparity more once men in my generation started aging, become more open and supportive and I began to form close male friendships in my mid-late 30's. They became a barometer of comparing proactive care, compassion and understanding.

 

The real work, probably irrelevant to most people, has been on the 'benefit of the doubt' propensity, something which was socialized into me as a default behavioral style. Expecting care, compassion and understanding from people who say they are friends and discontinuing if it's not received, without extended periods of 'giving the benefit of the doubt', has created an overall healthier feeling about the dynamic. Also, I've been actively working to 'care less', not meaning to be uncaring but rather more like a typical man on these forums, such as your husband, is described; as my exW would tell you, more 'normal'.

 

As often presented on these forums, people are individuals (I use the words 'anecdote' or 'data point') and each experience is individual. Over decades of individual experiences, patterns and trends are drawn from them. Since I've been all over the world and have friends of various levels and intensities in far-flung places, I pull from those experiences when drawing inferences and identifying patterns.

 

Happy to meet and enjoy new and different people. More experience is better

[thatone]

Dogs are smarter than people. They will run from the bad person who mistreated them but still wag their tail when a stranger pets them because the stranger hasn't hurt them. People should be more like dogs.

 

indeed they should.

[Woggle]

Dogs are smarter than people. They will run from the bad person who mistreated them but still wag their tail when a stranger pets them because the stranger hasn't hurt them. People should be more like dogs.

 

Trusting a stranger can get a person killed. I admit I don't usually trust women until they show they are not misandrists. I's not hatred but it's self protection.

[ThsAmericanLife]

The fact that the example I cited stood out so prominently underscores the real life experiences I've had. Off the top of my head, I can think of two or three women, two which are friend's wives and one which is a friend's daughter, who have been consistently proactively caring and compassionate over the years. I do recall one past lover being proactively caring and compassionate. The fact that I consider her to be my mistake (for not continuing, mainly due to the long distance involved) probably underscores how rare that quality has been extant in my romantic life. The vast majority of other contacts have been been, predominantly, neutral to uncaring. I don't recall, at the time, thinking such people were 'bad', but rather wondering where the balance point should be. As a default, I look to how women value and respond to the care and compassion I show them and how they validate and enable that kind of behavior. My experience has been, generally, that women, from friends to lovers to spouse, like that I care about how they feel and seek to understand them but that's pretty much where the 'like' has ended. After enough 'benefit of the doubt', I generally move on from such dynamics, since they're unbalanced.

 

I think I honestly noticed the disparity more once men in my generation started aging, become more open and supportive and I began to form close male friendships in my mid-late 30's. They became a barometer of comparing proactive care, compassion and understanding.

 

The real work, probably irrelevant to most people, has been on the 'benefit of the doubt' propensity, something which was socialized into me as a default behavioral style. Expecting care, compassion and understanding from people who say they are friends and discontinuing if it's not received, without extended periods of 'giving the benefit of the doubt', has created an overall healthier feeling about the dynamic. Also, I've been actively working to 'care less', not meaning to be uncaring but rather more like a typical man on these forums, such as your husband, is described; as my exW would tell you, more 'normal'.

 

As often presented on these forums, people are individuals (I use the words 'anecdote' or 'data point') and each experience is individual. Over decades of individual experiences, patterns and trends are drawn from them. Since I've been all over the world and have friends of various levels and intensities in far-flung places, I pull from those experiences when drawing inferences and identifying patterns.

 

Happy to meet and enjoy new and different people. More experience is better

 

It has been my experience that the love, compassion, and support I exhibit towards my partner is taken for granted.... along the lines of ...that's how women are 'supposed to be'.

 

Kind of like, how women are expected to know how to cook, etc.

 

Then, when *I* need their emotional support, it is the man who is too busy, gets annoyed, doesn't want to reciprocate...or they respond in anger when they get frustrated instead of reaching out with a desire for mutual understanding.

 

Part of that is understandable. Men (in general) are conditioned not to show their feelings and so have not learned lots of ways to relate to others. Or, they have been conditioned to show their feelings in one way and one way only. Anger.

 

That makes me more compassionate... but it doesn't change what I need in order to want to be in a committed relationship again. I won't 'settle' for a relationship where I'm doing most of the emotional work just so I can avoid being alone.

 

It is true that we are supposed to offer our gifts without hope of return (if they are truly gifts)... however, there must be some sort of reciprocation and shared admiration for each other's gifts in order to feel truly valued and loved.

[ThsAmericanLife]

Trusting a stranger can get a person killed. I admit I don't usually trust women until they show they are not misandrists. I's not hatred but it's self protection.

 

... Basically, you assume they are misandrists until they prove otherwise??

 

I'd argue that thinking makes you a chauvinist... But you did help me compose my thoughts about 'one non-physical thing that attracts' someone.

 

I'm going to ignore the title of your thread where it says 'one non-physical thing that attracts MEN'... because frankly, that comes across as chauvinist too...

 

But here goes..

 

Gratitude is the one quality I look for first. With gratitude comes empathy, compassion, and all of the other qualities I also look for.

 

... and frankly, the one quality I find lacking in you Woggle. You complain incessently about your exW. As painful as that experience might have been for you, I think you'll find your bitterness subside if you can learn to find SOMETHING positive from it and some gratitude for the time she spent with you too.

 

It couldn't have been ALL bad. It's ok if you aren't ready for that yet. I hope you can get to that point someday. It really is liberating.

[xxoo]

Interesting that you've experienced closer friendships with men in the later 30s. I wonder if my H has had the same experience.

 

As a married woman, I've often been in the role of listener to single male friends. I assumed it was because I was a "safe" place to open up--as compared to a single woman or another man. But maybe it has more to do with my capacity to listen.

 

Also, I've been actively working to 'care less', not meaning to be uncaring but rather more like a typical man on these forums, such as your husband, is described; as my exW would tell you, more 'normal'.

 

My husband cares, but is uncomfortable with the conversations. He's a "fixer". After 3 of his offered solutions, if you are still needing to talk--he's out of things to say, and doesn't feel comfortable listening quietly. It's ok, I know and accept this about him because I understand what makes him tick (that's for Woggle ). It certainly doesn't mean that he doesn't care. He care so much that it is actually painful for him to listen at length and not be able to fix it.

[carhill]

Yes, my problem is I naturally do both. I have the typical, and often extraordinary, ability to 'fix' things, 'normal' for a man, along with the ability and natural interest to listen and empathize with people where 'fixing' the issue is not possible nor necessarily desired, kind of like when CEO's wife was 'listening' to me share the details of my divorce and mother's death. She couldn't 'fix' those things but could be caring and compassionate.

 

Now a question....how am I to know if someone cares if they don't express it? How am I to read their mind. Your know your husband, love your husband and he evidently shows that he cares. One possible clue is remembering details and acting on them, even if not apparently actively showing care. Perhaps he does that. I look for that too. It's part of the analysis process.

 

What I'm beginning to notice here is something that is common with women, in that they are adept with putting things back onto the man and not taking responsibility. Why not listen, take it in and accept it as a possibility, instead of turning it around? That will be my final word on the matter. Food for thought..

[snug.bunny]

What I'm beginning to notice here is something that is common with women, in that they are adept with putting things back onto the man and not taking responsibility. Why not listen, take it in and accept it as a possibility, instead of turning it around? That will be my final word on the matter. Food for thought..

 

Carhill, the situation you posted is unique, and I think most people would have a level of compassion and understanding after listening to what you told to your friends wife.

 

But, this example:

 

I admit I don't usually trust women until they show they are not misandrists. I's not hatred but it's self protection.

How are females supposed to take "responsibility" for a statement like that?

 

We didn't personally cause mistrust for the OP, I assume his ex wife did...Can we have compassion for him, based on knowing he was hurt by his ex wife? yes... Of course. I think if OP framed it a different way (i.e. "I don't trust women who are abusers, cheaters, liars and/or man haters"), he would find more compassion and thus support, but it is still something we cannot personally take responsibility for because we didn't cause his mistrust, his ex wife did.

 

I "get" where he is coming from, now. But I did not initially, based on the original post (though I suspected it had something to do with his last statement when I first read it, which is why I was hesitant to be blindly supportive).

 

Glad we've gotten to the "nuts and bolts" of it. I've struggled with trusting men in general too, but I try to refrain from casting judgment until certain actions (or lack thereof) warrant mistrust. I know the OP's posting history from reading some of his threads, so my perception of his complaint, was a bit skewed. If I didn't care about "where he was coming from", I wouldn't have bothered to chime in. I disagree with a lot of his views/perceptions/statements, but I also know where they come from and I genuinely feel sorrow for some of the things he has gone through.

[ThsAmericanLife]

What I'm beginning to notice here is something that is common with women, in that they are adept with putting things back onto the man and not taking responsibility.

 

I find accountability and self-awareness to be in short supply in both genders...

[ThsAmericanLife]

As a married woman, I've often been in the role of listener to single male friends. I assumed it was because I was a "safe" place to open up--as compared to a single woman or another man. But maybe it has more to do with my capacity to listen.

 

I've worked around men for over 20 years....

 

I think their 'natural' tendency is to go to women (any woman who is nearby and receptive) when they want to talk about something that doesn't involve sports stats or politics.

 

In fact, it has been argued that men actually suffer more emotionally after a break-up than women do because women have a bigger social safety net than alot of men.

 

Men rely almost exclusively on the woman (or women) in their lives for emotional support... not other men.

 

As they get older, I do see them forming closer male friendships. I'm thinking this is also a United States thing. Men in some other countries are alot more comfortable sharing their feelings and even showing affection towards their male friends than they do here in the US.

 

... still looking for that prime job overseas... *sigh*.

[Mme. Chaucer]

... Basically, you assume they are misandrists until they prove otherwise??

 

I'd argue that thinking makes you a chauvinist... But you did help me compose my thoughts about 'one non-physical thing that attracts' someone.

 

I'm going to ignore the title of your thread where it says 'one non-physical thing that attracts MEN'... because frankly, that comes across as chauvinist too…

 

YUP.

 

Gratitude is the one quality I look for first. With gratitude comes empathy, compassion, and all of the other qualities I also look for.

 

Me too!

 

It couldn't have been ALL bad. It's ok if you aren't ready for that yet. I hope you can get to that point someday. It really is liberating.

 

I agree so wholeheartedly I cannot even express …

 

I have been through a lot. I have been truly victimized, starting in early childhood, and also, I put myself in the victim role at some times. I think I understand why, now. I also wreaked havoc in my own life.

 

What gave me the chance to see another way to live was cultivating gratitude.

 

I've mentioned before that I met my husband on Match.com. He'd been "trying" there for several years; I had for a much shorter period. What we both experienced was a preponderance of people (due to our ages, almost all had been divorced at least once) who were living in a state of bitterness and blame about their ex, the wreckage of their marriage, etc.

 

That made both he and I IMMEDIATELY "next" those people.

 

It was not due to a lack of compassion on either of our parts. Believe me, he and I both could have been just as bitter and negative if we'd chosen that for ourselves.

[westrock]

My husband cares, but is uncomfortable with the conversations. He's a "fixer". After 3 of his offered solutions, if you are still needing to talk--he's out of things to say, and doesn't feel comfortable listening quietly. It's ok, I know and accept this about him because I understand what makes him tick (that's for Woggle ). It certainly doesn't mean that he doesn't care. He care so much that it is actually painful for him to listen at length and not be able to fix it.

 

xxoo, what you describe is common among many (not all) men. When a man sees and hears his partner talking about problems, he doesn't like to see his partner under such stress and his natural tendency is to try and "fix" the situation. To him, it's like a fire alarm going off. In his mind there is a fire and he has to take action to fix the problem immediately. When there is a fire, the last thing one does is sit around listening to someone talk about feelings.

 

It may be obvious to women (and some men) that at that moment all she wants is her partner to just sit, listen and show some compassion for her feelings, but to an inexperienced man, it is a foreign concept.

 

Once a guy has put forth a solution and he sees the situation has not been "fixed", he will try another solution, and another, but by the time he's tried 3 solutions, and nothing seems to be working in his mind, he will become very stressed and painful to just sit there and keep listening. Eventually he thinks he may be the problem and in big trouble, especially if she gets upset at him for not listening and understanding her feelings.

 

In such a situation, men can understand women better by realizing that she doesn't need anything "fixed". The best thing he can do to put out the "fire" is to just listen and show compassion and understanding of her feelings.

 

Women can understand men better if the women were to simply say at the start of this type of conversation, "honey, you don't need to fix anything. You did nothing wrong. All you need to do is listen to me for a while. That's the best thing you can do."

[Mme. Chaucer]

I do find the direction of this thread interesting. I too have always thought that women tended to be more "compassionate" and "understanding" than men. Even if the women were't naturally so inclined, most of us learned that those qualities are valued in women so tried to cultivate them.

 

I have known more than a couple of women and girls who actually used their ability to "understand men" as a manipulative tool, too.

 

Anyway, I have a lot of female friends who are actually very understanding and compassionate people towards other humans.

 

Personally, even though I post "tough," I struggle with a tendency to over-empathize. I've had trouble with emotional boundaries around feeling and taking on other peoples stuff. I've cultivated boundaries, and a knack for really understanding a lot of what people go through without having to go there with them, myself, now.