RiverRunning Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 It's a turn-on when a man can suggest an idea. Are you sure you're not just turning the decision-making on her all of the time? The fact that women are getting so angry with you about it would suggest to me that you're not taking any initiative and leaving it all to them. My boyfriend is similar and it gets to be very aggravating. I don't want all of the responsibility of deciding what we do all of the time. Sure, I love choosing sometimes and I have great ideas. But I feel sometimes men do this because a.) they're afraid of making a mistake or b.) they're push-overs. I don't want someone who's a complete dick and wants their way all of the time, but it would be great to hear, "I want to go to that evolutionary museum. Are you busy Friday night?"
thatone Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 It's a turn-on when a man can suggest an idea. Are you sure you're not just turning the decision-making on her all of the time? The fact that women are getting so angry with you about it would suggest to me that you're not taking any initiative and leaving it all to them. My boyfriend is similar and it gets to be very aggravating. I don't want all of the responsibility of deciding what we do all of the time. Sure, I love choosing sometimes and I have great ideas. But I feel sometimes men do this because a.) they're afraid of making a mistake or b.) they're push-overs. I don't want someone who's a complete dick and wants their way all of the time, but it would be great to hear, "I want to go to that evolutionary museum. Are you busy Friday night?" we're not talking about black and white. we're talking about equal.
alphamale Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 It's a turn-on when a man can suggest an idea. turned on woman = happy woman = sex
RiverRunning Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 we're not talking about black and white. we're talking about equal. And equal rarely happens. Sure, he may be dating some crazy women who blow up and constantly want a man to take care of them. But every woman? Seems like a stretch to me. The common denominator here is the OP. My inkling is still that he's probably not taking the initiative enough. Or he may take the helm at the very beginning of the relationship, but then it quickly dries up. Is he pressuring the women and that's why he finally gets an exasperated, angry answer? I can't tell you how many times I alone have had a conversation go along the way of, "RiverRunning, what do you want to do for dinner?" "I picked the last few times. What are you in the mood for?" "I don't know..." About 5 minutes later, he resumes it with an aggravated, "Well, where are we going to go?" Eventually, I'll just name off a random place. But indecisiveness like that is a turn-off. I do not want to be waiting around for someone to make a decision for an hour or two. If he is truly, constantly dating women who expect him to do everything, he needs to start examining his choice in women. Surely there's a common denominator among them that can help him pick a less-needy woman in the future. But again, the common denominator is him - either he's not firm and decisive enough or some part of him is attracted to that 'helpless woman' schtick.
tradewinds Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 (edited) Good point Star Gazer, It is important to pay attention. Also, you are not being insincere if you, the male, pick the place. If she doesn't like it, she will tell you and then do like I said. You do not do it all the time, but don't have her choose all the time either. Have a plan. Be observant to the relationships around you and you will know this is true. Nothing against women here at all (if you read my post carefully, you will see that), stop reading into it so much. Also, ask yourself a question and be honest. Who would you most likely follow or want to be around, someone who can't decide and always asks others what to do or someone who has a plan? Women, like you said, are human! Again, women don't want to be jerked around, they (excuse the HUGE generalization) want to know that you can take care of them. This has nothing to do with their independence or security (it's nature). A bad plan is better than no plan...or worse, no woman! Edited October 19, 2011 by tradewinds typo
zengirl Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 A woman will tell you exactly what she wants... but she doesn't want to have to be asked. She wants you to PAY ATTENTION.[/i][/b] As SG says, this is probably part of it sometimes, especially in the early dates. However, most of these women like being asked what they like to do----they just don't like being asked to plan the date out for you. Personally, I don't mind even doing SOME of the date planning, even early on, but I want a guy to show me he has some of his own ideas too and that he can listen to/remember what I've told him and apply it, as SG says. Also, sometimes my BF or I BOTH go all, "I don't know/I don't care/whatever is fine," because we honestly feel that way. Sometimes you're just in a, "I don't have any ideas" mood. At the same time, something men have often done to me --- and I DO have ideas --- is act like I haven't suggested anything when I've suggested like 5 things already, because the natural WAY I'm suggesting it, even when I'm not trying to be a hint-dropper at ALL, made it fly under their radar. So, that goes back to that paying attention thing. Women rarely communicate in a masculine, direct, "Let's go do x now!" sort of way, with each other or with men. So, you have to be willing to listen.
Mrlonelyone Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 @tradewinds. I don't think the OP said he "never has a plan". He asked why some women get bent out of shape if you ask them where they would like to go, or what they would like to do? To me asking someone out sounds like this: Hey would you like to go out and (Do something/ eat/ see movie or what ever)? Asking someone what they would like to do and if they would like to do it is part of the deal. Whereas ya'll make it sound like a man is just supposed to grab the woman by the hair and drag her around.
Dusk1983 Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 (edited) Women rarely communicate in a masculine, direct, "Let's go do x now!" sort of way, with each other or with men. So, you have to be willing to listen. If a girl makes an abstract non-verbal signal in an empty forest - does she communicate anything to anyone? Communication only, well, communicates anything if it can be reliably understood & decoded at the other end of the transmission. If not, sadly, it's just an idiosyncratic behavioural tic that could mean just about anything, or more likely in this case, nothing at all. Edited October 19, 2011 by Dusk1983
2sure Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 Yeah, I think it's lame. But I know that's just the way it is. So I play by the rules. Especially when you are at the dating phase and you're putting your best foot forward, part of the dog and pony show you have to put up is to always be prepared. Granted, not all women are like that. But always have a suggestion, and ideally a few more, ready at your disposal. You have to be the person to make the initial suggestion, then you see what they say. It's a bit more work but then you cover all of your bases. You please the type of woman that want men to take charge, and if you meet someone that's more free thinking and independent, you're just throwing out a suggestion. This man gets it. Totally. We dont necessarilly want you to always make the decisions, and some women always want to make them themselves...but at the dating stage, the dog and pony show...we want to see that you CAN make them. After that we want to know you are willing to let us. I dont know how old this gentleman is, but the sooner a man figures out that this is just part of being a gentleman the better off he is. We KNOW its 50% sincere and 50% show. We just need to know your capabilities.
kiss_andmakeup Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 I would never respond with something as hostile and rude as "Why the hell do I have to choose?!" when my boyfriend asks me what I'd like to do. Jeez, how bitchy! That said, I am guilty of usually responding to the question with "It doesn't matter to me," or "I'm not sure." I'll be the first to admit I'm horrible at making decisions and I've admitted that to my boyfriend; the truth of the matter is that usually I genuinely don't care where we go to eat or what bar we go to. If a certain type of food sounds good to me I'll tell him, but otherwise I usually leave the decision making up to him.
thatone Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 This man gets it. Totally. We dont necessarilly want you to always make the decisions, and some women always want to make them themselves...but at the dating stage, the dog and pony show...we want to see that you CAN make them. After that we want to know you are willing to let us. I dont know how old this gentleman is, but the sooner a man figures out that this is just part of being a gentleman the better off he is. We KNOW its 50% sincere and 50% show. We just need to know your capabilities. that's the thing, a lot of women don't know. it's very easy to wind up sitting across from a bitter/whiney lump of meat a few months/years later who complains that you're not reading her mind, when in fact she hasn't done or said anything to suggest whatever it is she wants. which tells me that she wants nothing more than that first few dates repeated over and over, at which time the answer from my side of the table is no.
zengirl Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 If a girl makes an abstract non-verbal signal in an empty forest - does she communicate anything to anyone? Communication only, well, communicates anything if it can be reliably understood & decoded at the other end of the transmission. If not, sadly, it's just an idiosyncratic behavioural tic that could mean just about anything, or more likely in this case, nothing at all. Hence my comment of "some" men not getting it. Those men aren't the men I've wound up dating long-term because we couldn't communicate (and frankly most weren't BF material). The truth is, communication is a two-way process (transmitting and receiving) and the burden is on BOTH people. Which is not to say my BF and I always understand each other, but he is able to listen to my suggestions and recognize them, whereas plenty of other guys (those who seldom communicate with women except in a sexual/dating capacity being the worst!) potentially would have trouble. Learning to talk to women as people and LISTEN to the way they speak is a good skill to learn if you're frustrated is all I'm saying. I'm not frustrated with my results, so I assume the way I communicate is fine. But if someone is consistently frustrated with their results, the problem isn't everyone else they deal with; it's probably the person who is consistently frustrated.
tradewinds Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 You seem defensive, but you asked a question and you are getting opinions. We are not in your head or your life. Nobody's trying to bash you (you always have bashers with no lives on here though, but ignore them). Take or leave the advice, but make your decision and go for it already. If you do not want the leader role, find a woman that will be the leader. Either way, someone has to lead. When fighter pilots fly in formation, someone is always the leader and the rest are wingman who provide the leader with advice, but they let him lead. If this doesn't happen, fighters collide. The same with relationships, if both are leaders or neither are leaders, your gonna collide and go down in flames! It can be 50/50, but someone has to lead!
Author Kaplan Posted October 19, 2011 Author Posted October 19, 2011 Is he pressuring the women and that's why he finally gets an exasperated, angry answer? Hmmm . . . nope. This thread isn't some clue about my dating habits or the type of women I normally date. As I said, this behavior isn't just something I've seen in women I was dating. It's not universal, but it's pretty common. So what you guys are telling me is that every conversation with you is a secret, childish test. Also, I think it's funny how a few of you are pretending that I said the woman should choose. That's not what I'm saying. I just don't understand why they get so irritated when somebody asks. There's nothing wrong with letting me choose. I think that's what the women I'm talking about are doing: pretending that I'm expecting them to choose because they think of it as some stupid test that I'm failing. Going back to the example of what to do for dinner, here's a question for the women who don't like to be asked what they want to do: do you realize that if you want to go to a particular type of restaurant one day then your ideal man will not take you there because he'll just decide for you without asking you? I mean, I understand that your ideal man would just automatically be able to read your mind, but we all know that's not realistic. Dinner is a great example because I hardly ever have a preference about it so, to me, I'd want to go where you want to go, if you have a preference. Obviously, if you don't have a preference then I will make some suggestion. The alternative to asking (and this is what some of you are telling me to do) is to pretend that I have a preference and then demand that we go there, so that I will look like "a man." That's so childish to me. I'd rather fail your stupid test and be a better man in my own eyes.
2sure Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 How awful it would be to end up with a woman who had nothing to offer, and prefers not to think for herself. I mean, I get sitting back and relaxing while dating...especially if your just in it for fun...but that would be so boring long run. Well, woman have answered here numerous times on various threads as to how and why we prefer a man to present himself initially, what our perceptions and expectations are and how we gather information , project from whats been learned and determine our own results from the dating "dog and pony show". So guys...whats your screening process? What are you looking for as far as red flags and signals that indicate to you that you want to continue dating someone or not? Women seem to have a clear and traditional system. Whats yours?
2sure Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 How awful it would be to end up with a woman who had nothing to offer, and prefers not to think for herself. I mean, I get sitting back and relaxing while dating...especially if your just in it for fun...but that would be so boring long run. Well, women have answered here numerous times on various threads as to how and why we prefer a man to present himself initially, what our perceptions and expectations are and how we gather information , project from whats been learned and determine our own results from the dating "dog and pony show". So guys...whats your screening process? What are you looking for as far as red flags and signals that indicate to you that you want to continue dating someone or not? Women seem to have a clear and traditional system. Whats yours?
Dusk1983 Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 Dinner is a great example because I hardly ever have a preference about it so, to me, I'd want to go where you want to go, if you have a preference. Obviously, if you don't have a preference then I will make some suggestion. The alternative to asking (and this is what some of you are telling me to do) is to pretend that I have a preference and then demand that we go there, so that I will look like "a man." That's so childish to me. I'd rather fail your stupid test and be a better man in my own eyes. Exactly the same for me also. Perfectly put. Politics, music, art, films - in most areas I am overflowing with forthright opinions. Things about which I feel strongly. But bar / restaurant / coffee shop choice? Sorry, not enough there to stimulate my cerebral cortex, I'm afraid. Still, mustn't look indecisive, eh? Best just feign some passionate interest in where we get that bagel from.
grkBoy Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 (edited) I think the first date should be 100% planned out by the person who asked the other one out. Just take her where you think a good "date spot" is and go from there. If she later thinks your date was lame and didn't want to do a date #2, move on. You can see then she's not a match. She's not a "selfish spoiled entitled princess b***h" because she wasn't into your date. She's just not the right girl for you. Some of you guys think it's wrong for a woman to like expensive things, imaginative dates, etc. It's just tastes, and you should simply reject opposed tastes like you would a 300-lb bald hippo with warts all over her skin. I like to look for clues, but I'll sometimes ask on further date planning what she's into, but I phrase in in a manner that says "I want to get to know YOU" rather than "I have no clue how to impress you and I want to get to home plate...help me out." Let's say she likes cycling. Ask her if she would like to go cycling, and then ask if she has any routes she prefers. Stay clued in on her tastes, then gauge what she likes in detail. Only three times did I meet women who were appalled when I asked for their input in these matters. One of them astounded me because I drove 45 min to her suburb that I've never been to, but she expected me to have plans. Um...hello? I don't know your town! All three women are STILL SINGLE. Kind of says their personalities act as man repellent. Plan the first and possibly second date on your own. Just take her to where you think is great and don't worry so much if she likes you or not. From there, gauge her tastes more and show her you care about her mind and feelings. If she can't respect that, then don't see it as a loss to you, but see it as a big red flag. Edited October 19, 2011 by grkBoy
thatone Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 How awful it would be to end up with a woman who had nothing to offer, and prefers not to think for herself. I mean, I get sitting back and relaxing while dating...especially if your just in it for fun...but that would be so boring long run. Well, woman have answered here numerous times on various threads as to how and why we prefer a man to present himself initially, what our perceptions and expectations are and how we gather information , project from whats been learned and determine our own results from the dating "dog and pony show". So guys...whats your screening process? What are you looking for as far as red flags and signals that indicate to you that you want to continue dating someone or not? Women seem to have a clear and traditional system. Whats yours? ours is pretty clear and traditional as well. we'll play the dog and pony show for those first few dates. if we don't get some reaction from the other side that our efforts are appreciated and the attraction is mutual after those first few dates, it's time to move on to the next candidate, or at least take a step back and wait for her to show me something. that doesn't automatically denote sex, btw. it can be honest communication. and that's a clear line denoting a change in the nature of the relationship. that isn't getting a bone thrown my way and then going back to first/second date mode again. from the point that trust is established communication and effort should be mutual. if it isn't, i will either consciously or subconsciously withdraw and take the attention away until i get what i'm looking for in return. look at all of these threads on this forum that women start where they tell complete strangers exactly what they think of the men they're dating, and when you get to the bottom of page three you get an admission from the woman in question that she refused him in some way and didn't tell him why, then wonders why he stopped calling her.
carhill Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 (edited) Women seem to have a clear and traditional system. Whats yours? Narrowly focused on the OP's subject matter, I'll offer one data point of the 'screening process'. Since I've always been a traditional 'planner', 'suggester' and 'executor', I watch for a woman's reaction to and synergy with those plans, suggestions and executions. If I don't sense interest and enthusiasm, then next. Example, for a dinner date: 'I'd love to take you to xxxx. The last time I was there I tried the xxxx and it was marvelous. I saw some other items on the menu I'd like to try, like the xxx and xxx, with the xxx cab I saw on their wine list. How does that sound to you?' Then I listen. I listen for both enthusiasm and for content. I like a woman who knows, in this instance, her food and enjoys it and can talk about such things freely and easily. Bonus, in this example, if she has a suggestion for a wine pairing that she has particularly enjoyed. This combines with listening for her enthusiasm about sharing this time with me. This is what I call 'synergy'. Fluidity. It applies to other aspects of dating as well, but I confined it to the OP. Edited October 19, 2011 by carhill
tradewinds Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 So guys...whats your screening process? What are you looking for as far as red flags and signals that indicate to you that you want to continue dating someone or not? Women seem to have a clear and traditional system. Whats yours? We don't know! A woman that is interested in us and not just herself. We look for signs of game players and gold diggers. If we think you are egotistical, your gone! Men always want to rescue a woman (think of of all those Disney movies and fairy tales) so we find that appealing also.
tradewinds Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 The alternative to asking (and this is what some of you are telling me to do) is to pretend that I have a preference and then demand that we go there, so that I will look like "a man." That's so childish to me. I'd rather fail your stupid test and be a better man in my own eyes. Nobody said demand. It's ok to ask in that case, but if she has no idea, just pick a place. If you are new to the area, then sure envite her to pick for that reason. I think your not getting the point here. If you want to be the follower, be the follower proudly! Do what works for you. Be true to yourself because you don't answer to us!
2sure Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 I like the vetting process that so far has been described - both by the men and the women who posted responses which, I think, all apply to the OPs questions. I'll tell you something. Im a woman of a certain age. Ive been fortunate in that Ive enjoyed (and not enjoyed ) dating and pursuit (both ways). Im probably considered a pretty good date by most and maybe more by some. Most of it is just social aptitude. I think a man with a solid screening process is more likely to spend time with women he likes. I know that it takes time and experience to develop a screening process and the ability to read people...but the sooner you have one the less rejection and frustation. Maybe? As often as I get invited out by men, sometimes Ive been vetted OUT. And thats ok, I think its kind of funny sometimes. I know Im not for everyone and I like when a man can recognize right off the bat that he may like the way I look, he may have been impressed with me in some other way, I looked good on paper, lol...but Im not his style. Love a man with a plan. But also, I have to say I admire you guys for doing all this - sometimes painful - heavy lifting.
AD1980 Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 I love you ladies but you are some goofy creatures you know that right? lol at getting turned off by asking to suggest a place to eat or getting turned on by a guy suggesting a place to eat.. Is it really that big a deal? Everyhtign is a soap opera or every little move is over analyzed to death with some of you..
denise_xo Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 I don't like a man to lead, and the idea that the person who initiates a date has to decide everything is completely foreign to me. I like collaboration and partnership, and joint planning. That way you're both responsible for whatever plans that are made, and you're more likely to do something you both enjoy. My personal experience is the opposite of the OP. In my relationship, it's my partner who relies on me to make decisions, and when I ask him to make them now and then it triggers a long elaboration of 'oh I don't know what would you like can't you just decide something I don't really have a preference etc etc etc'.
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