Men are less shallow, deep down we all know this, and yet we don't get any credit for

October 14, 2011

How could I make a good argument?

I said men not beggars. I've given nothing to imply that these men were beggars except that in one case they are younger than the old/much older woman and in the other case they have a preference for slim women.

Where did you get these men could be labeled beggars from this?

You could make a good argument that men are selfish if they don't date a woman not completely of their liking. That's what I meant.

October 14, 2011

You could make a good argument that men are selfish if they don't date a woman not completely of their liking. That's what I meant.

Kind of overreaching since the statements were about one factor so it wasn't a case of she had to be completely to his liking just she didn't have to be older/much older or overweight/obese. Unless you consider a guy not wanting to date an extremely masculine woman or a cheater equates to him not wanting to date a woman whose not completely to his liking.

Either way that's a bit dark if not wanting to date on one factor or however many factors equates to being selfish.

I can get stating beggars can't be choosers if the guy fits whatever criteria you deem a beggar.

I can get stating it's shallow to say no because she's much older or overweight/obese. Preferences are usually shallow, people usually don't take kindly when others go on visual preferences, and people usually feel empathy for those rejected so they take sides.

I can get all that but selfish...

I'm still not sure how they are being selfish. You're not obligated to date someone you're not attracted to, interested in, or you don't want. How is rejecting someone for one reason or a billion reasons selfish?

October 14, 2011

What kind of credit are you looking for exactly?

October 14, 2011

My point is, philosophy isn't necessarily a strict 'way to live' that only certain people can or can't do, Nexus. It's not like being 'vegan', or going vegan - unless you want it to be. You don't have to believe in transcending beauty, or overcoming biological desires, etc., in order to think or live philosophically. Not if you don't agree with it. And it doesn't make you weak not to agree with a certain viewpoint. That's what makes it interesting, it's about exploring opinions and different beliefs.

yes, that's it precisely.

and it comes with age. i'm pretty sure Nexus is mid to late 20s from his previous posts? correct me if i'm wrong Nexus.

the thing you'll see when you get into your mid 30s, and it's not a bad thing, mind you, is that those rigid philosophical ideals start to slip away. the few that remain are who you are. and when you're content with who you are, there's a confidence that comes with that beyond the confidence you have now that can get you what you want.

October 14, 2011

I can get stating it's shallow to say no because she's much older or overweight/obese. Preferences are usually shallow, people usually don't take kindly when others go on visual preferences, and people usually feel empathy for those rejected so they take sides.

I can get all that but selfish...

I'm still not sure how they are being selfish. You're not obligated to date someone you're not attracted to, interested in, or you don't want. How is rejecting someone for one reason or a billion reasons selfish?

For the record I didn't actually say that they were selfish, I just said you could make a good argument (based on this thread) that they were selfish.

Considering that there are more men between the ages of 18-35 than there are women and that many men struggle to get even the smallest amount of attention from women, any guy who just casually dismisses a woman on shallow grounds could be construed as selfish. If you were going to make that case.

October 14, 2011

Men can learn & get & keep confidence, height, and personality.

This is news to me. How do we learn to be taller?

Women get to be young once no getting it back. Women are either born beautiful or not then add in rating system fortunately there's plastic surgery, fashion, cosmetics, diet, and exercise. Yet there's no getting it back and add in the age factor.

A woman with average genetics who is serious about becoming desirable to the majority of men could do so with enough of a commitment to diet & exercise. Whilst not easy to achieve, it is nonetheless a lesser task than the male equivalent of learning/working to be charming, confident, funny, successful, high status, *and* in good shape.

October 14, 2011

For the record I didn't actually say that they were selfish, I just said you could make a good argument (based on this thread) that they were selfish.

Considering that there are more men between the ages of 18-35 than there are women and that many men struggle to get even the smallest amount of attention from women, any guy who just casually dismisses a woman on shallow grounds could be construed as selfish. If you were going to make that case.

Oh okay.

I thought you were saying a logical argument can be made not an argument can be made or an argument that just sounds logical but is actually absurdity can be made.

October 14, 2011

What kind of credit are you looking for exactly?

The kind where people admit than men are less shallow than women?

October 14, 2011

This is news to me. How do we learn to be taller?

LMFAO typo it was supposed to be confidence, status, and personality.

A woman with average genetics who is serious about becoming desirable to the majority of men could do so with enough of a commitment to diet & exercise.

Kind of overreaching on the majority of men simply being not fat or in shape doesn't equal desirable to the majority of men in most cases.

If so then guys would be clamoring for not fat or in shaped average faced girls rather than in shaped attractive girls. Facial features & facial proportions count it's not just in shape or not fat. Most want cute at the minimal not average it seems.

Plus desirability for most men also include age so no amount of exercise & diet at a certain age will have her desirable to the majority of men. While she may be desirable to what extent is questionable...plenty of 30 year old men will f*ck an attractive 60 year old how many will marry/date them?

Also add in to what extent do they find her desirable...not fat/average face desirable enough to f*ck not date/marry is often the case....especially when you add in some years. Then add in what does that desirability get her. She can be a 40 year old not fat or in shape thanks to diet & exercise but can she also get an average not fat or in shape 40 year old when most of those types are dating younger/much younger women.

Whilst not easy to achieve, it is nonetheless a lesser task than the male equivalent of learning/working to be charming, confident, funny, successful, high status, *and* in good shape.

*and* is the keyword here

Most don't usually need all factors in most cases it's a balancing act. Usually at most it's 2 or 3 of the following that women are inflexible on- confidence, personality, height, wealth, status.

A girl may like wealthy popular tall charming guys but be inflexible on confidence, height, and personality. No height is a cut off yet confidence and personality they can learn & get & keep.

I can get the lesser task deal on wealth, height, and status. However lesser task on confidence & personality. Confidence is usually a thing expected in most adults so there's plenty of resources for it all it takes is enough commitment. Personality while you can't change who you are in most cases social skills are expected of most adults so there's plenty of opportunities & learning in life. Charming/funny...plenty of resources.

Plus recall that those attributes are usually long lasting while the desirability by appearances for women isn't.

October 14, 2011

It wouldn't matter if I had 40 gorgeous women on me, I'd still be on forums like these arguing that men are less shallow. I have real life and ****loads of science to back it up but people on the Interner are weird. Any guy in the real world would agree with me, including alot of women. It's one of these arguments (facts) where Internet people just go weird whenever you bring it up -- if I were to go outside and say this to normal people... heck even all the women would agree with me. People on the Net are just freakin weird

I feel a great sense of injustice when I read alot of comments on the Internet -- almost everyone overlooks the universe of evidence all over the place.

Edited October 14, 2011 by danmorisson

October 14, 2011

Yes, within ethical limits.

Well, then, that's just the way you see fit to enjoy and view life. Really, it's a simple as that, but I suppose Onyx is just pointing out how different her way of thinking is and what she perceives to be the downsides or negative aspects to your way of thinking.

I know, but those philosophies are not what Onyx is pointing at. She's pointing to a restrictive perspective in my opinion.

Ah, okay. I was just wanting to make sure, as I see that often as a common, and honestly frustrating mistake where it (philosophy) is seen as just some one-size-fits-all type of thinking that only select people participate in.

Apparently she knows I like ballerinas, but I don't feel the need to extract some deeper truth from their physique. I just appreciate that kind of elegant physique and that's it.

Really... I personally thought you were going to reply to her that, yes, you appreciate that kind of physique in a purely aesthetic way, but also a sexual one as well. As I don't think it's impossible to appreciate that physique - or any other that a person thinks is attractive - in both ways equally. I know I wouldn't have faulted you, or anybody, for saying that if you had.

I've been hearing that my entire life from all sorts of sources. Don't get me wrong, I didn't have a religious upbringing, neither am I religious, but that stuff is amazingly pervasive throughout society in more ways than just religion. And people will profess that, all the while drinking the nectar of life themselves. It is hypocrisy and it can damage people's lives. (Note: I'm not saying Onyx is being hypocrite or damaging)

I agree, and I'm sorry you've felt that sort of 'pressure' or influence (so to speak) from society. It can be extremely hard to escape. And all the more reason why it's important to try to actually practice what one 'preaches'. Though I'm sure that those who don't in several ways are aware on some level that what they're doing as opposed to saying is hypocritical, which is something that they'll have to confront themselves about at some point in their lives.

Edited October 14, 2011 by Thieves

October 14, 2011

It wouldn't matter if I had 40 gorgeous women on me, I'd still be on forums like these arguing that men are less shallow.

I thought men were less shallow so why are the 40 women gorgeous?

If less shallow is being extremely attractive and being with someone less attractive.....

how many hot guy/ugly girl relationships/marriages there are compared to hot girl/ugly guy relationships/marriages?

I have real life

Cool so how many hot guy/ugly girl & girls with more attractive partners in relationships/marriages you know vs hot girl/ugly girl and guys with more attractive partners in relationships/marriages do you know?

****loads of science to back it up

Really what science is that?

In most studies appearance is an important factor to most men. In fact studies have shown that men are willing to sacrifice and compromise on other factors they had listed for attractiveness.

There was a study where people listed what they wanted/needed in a partner then showed pictures of the opposite gender listing all of those traits, some of those traits, none of those traits, opposite of those traits...etc. Men showed they were willing to compromise or sacrifice those things the more attractive the girl was. Just like women showed they were willing to compromise/sacrifice those things

Most studies show age is an important factor to most men. With most men preferring and dating women 10-20 years younger those studies aren't far off.

With most men refusing to date a woman they find physically unattractive that's not showing men care less about looks. I see plenty of women dating guys they find physically unattractive because they get their attraction elsewhere.

Just because some guys will f*ck a woman no matter how she looks doesn't mean men are less shallow.

Any guy in the real world would agree with me, including alot of women.

I'll give you any guy since most guys are quick to find some reason that blames another person and has them looking like the vitim to explain their lack of success.

Not sure on the including a lot of women since most women seem to agree they are less visual then men. Keyword less...for some reasons guys think less visual = don't care at all about looks

It wouldn't matter if I had 40 gorgeous women I feel a great sense of injustice when I read alot of comments on the Internet -- almost everyone overlooks the universe of evidence all over the place.

What evidence?

Some guys f*cking women just because they have a hole is not evidence that men care less about looks than women.

"Evidence" has stated the contrary-

1. men are just as visual as women

2. some state men are more visual

3. attractiveness is an important factor in relationships to most men

4. most men seek relationships with an attractive partner

5. some men who aren't attractive seek a more attractive partner than themselves

6. most men aren't willing to be bf/hubby to one they find physically unattractive

7. most men approach who they want to ask out by attractiveness

^ care to show how that is men caring less about looks?

Both genders care equally men approach by looks & women reject by looks. However there are more women willing to "give chances" and date someone they don't find attractive enough to want to date while most men aren't "giving chances" or approaching someone they don't find attractive enough to want to date.

Edited October 14, 2011 by udolipixie

October 14, 2011

Whomever said it did make a person look smarter? Perhaps some people are just more naturally long-winded than others when it comes to verbalizing or expressing their thoughts? The only problem I can see would lay with those who don't have the patience or time to read through it all, which to me says more about the reader than the writer. Short-winded or long-winded, both have their merits and downsides. Neither style automatically decreases or increases the value of the person's thoughts. We all write in our own way.

Sorry, but in my experience, long winded arguments are often made by people who are insecure about their intelligence and I've had many, many debates.

Saying things like "truth is beautiful" sounds great but we KNOW Onyx doesn't live her life by those words. No one does. At least Nexus is honest with himself.

Everybody wants a good looking mate. Some people are willing to sacrifice looks for money, fame, protection, or even intelligence. You all talk about physique being a biological sign of health that is used in selecting mates, but so is intelligence. Some people think that human intelligence (including artistry, scholarship, etc.) evolved because of sexual competition.

I don't understand why putting a strong emphasis on good looks over intelligence or a nice personality is shallow. What if someone ONLY cares about intelligence or personality? Isn't that being shallow too? I think if someone works extremely hard on their looks that shows a few good qualities including discipline and patience.

October 14, 2011

My favorite part of the OP is that "deep down we all know this" in the title.

But...I don't because I'm a woman and there is no deep down because I guess I'm shallow! Right?

I think I'll go stare at a wall.

October 14, 2011

@udolipixie

Ah but when I say that men care less about looks I mean that men have a broader choice! Fact! Whereas as the 9/10 women simply go for 1 type of guy (excluding social status etc. I'm talking about pure visual attraction) - the room for error is vastly smaller. You cannot deny this. Evidence? Go outiside. Browse Facebook. Watch documentaries on sexual attraction. Go look up Bbw sites. Look all around you.

Edit: Have you ever heard of a woman with a fat fetish? Unheard of. And these men still find thin people attractive too btw. Men have a much broader choice in them - in what they can find sexually attractive

Oh and it's mostly men that seek good personalities. Most women date arseholes. Again, I'm just being realistic here

Edit: It's the arseholish men that seek good personalities in their women

Edited October 14, 2011 by danmorisson

October 14, 2011

Ah but when I say that men care less about looks I mean that men have a broader choice!

Do all of those choices of the same desirability?

If not that's not caring less about looks but maximizing your options. I could state women care less money and say I mean they have a broad choice since they date poor, middle class, and rich guys.

When in fact some won't because they'd consider the rich guys more desirable and hold no to little desire for the poor guys they chose to date.

Fact!

Really? Studies state different- attractive, young, slim, a certain hip/waist ratio, feminine facial features, long hair, seems to be what the majority goes for...not sure how that's broader

Just because some men go after broader choices doesn't mean they have broad tastes. In fact apparently some men just go for what they can get.

That doesn't mean they care less about looks it means they doubt their ability to get what they want.

Whereas as the 9/10 women simply go for 1 type of guy (excluding social status etc. I'm talking about pure visual attraction) - the room for error is vastly smaller. You cannot deny this. Evidence? Go outiside. Browse Facebook. Watch documentaries on sexual attraction. Go look up Bbw sites. Look all around you.

No need to deny it....it's a bit far off.

Either way no different than the majority of guys surrounding the same type of girls....type not types.

Edit: Have you ever heard of a woman with a fat fetish? Unheard of. And these men still find thin people attractive too btw. Men have a much broader choice in them - in what they can find sexually attractive

Oh and it's mostly men that seek good personalities. Most women date arseholes. Again, I'm just being realistic here

Edit: It's the arseholish men that seek good personalities in their women

October 14, 2011

Oh. And please don't be embarrassed. It's just one point of view, after all, and we all know that not all men think in that particular way.

:X Thank you.

This thread is too subjective and variable, I find. There are genuine individuals that seek someone that would bring out the best between the 2 in a caring relationship. There are those that only seek gains within their superficial prerequisites. And there is everything in between those 2 polar mentions. Its a fallacy to make claims purely from a handful of quotes/experiences. Call up any statistics or empirical evidence you want, but at the end of the day its all based on the specific person.

All in all, the only thing that will help is to be perceptive of those around you. And to be honest with yourself about what you're looking for. With that, we can all be less 'shallow' and hold deep feelings for those lucky enough to share their's with us.

October 14, 2011

Sorry, but in my experience, long winded arguments are often made by people who are insecure about their intelligence and I've had many, many debates.

Saying things like "truth is beautiful" sounds great but we KNOW Onyx doesn't live her life by those words. No one does. At least Nexus is honest with himself.

Everybody wants a good looking mate. Some people are willing to sacrifice looks for money, fame, protection, or even intelligence. You all talk about physique being a biological sign of health that is used in selecting mates, but so is intelligence. Some people think that human intelligence (including artistry, scholarship, etc.) evolved because of sexual competition.

I don't understand why putting a strong emphasis on good looks over intelligence or a nice personality is shallow. What if someone ONLY cares about intelligence or personality? Isn't that being shallow too? I think if someone works extremely hard on their looks that shows a few good qualities including discipline and patience.

Because you know how I live and what I value and what I continuously aspire towards? As well as with all others?

Hmm.

I also don't care about having, nor do I *want*, a physically good-looking mate --- oh golly but you can't conceive of that --- too unbelievable.

At any rate, you need to broaden your "experiences" --- I haven't actually considered whether or not I look intelligent - LOL - if I don't, great. If I do, great. Either way, that has nothing to do with why I come to this forum and participate in these internet exchanges, nor how I even go about them. Some of my posts are concise, and some of them are long-ass ones in which many probably *could* be condensed, were I to put in the extra time and effort --- because yes, my innate responses are not always thus.

but what's generally behind the latter is me trying to make sure some part is mentioned that someone else can interpret more accurately --- it CAN be counter-productive, but I feel that Nexus and I don't interpret one another well. And yes, over-compensation is due . I'm not really satisfied with us attempting to communicate and it going no where --- I could careless about other things, like trying to get you to consider the definition of shallow, Lol. That I deem hopeless and ultimately a waste of time.

Anyway, I think your claims are a bit absurd and this is the last I'm commenting on such

In the early pages of this thread however, I think the answer to your final question was explained rather well by a few people. If you cannot absorb that information, then I suppose you shall continue being perplexed. Good luck with that.

________________

Nexus - We are at different points in our lives but we're also just simply different (I was asexual and uninterested in sex for a couple of years until I met my current partner... though that was after a period of misery and loneliness and yearning to coalesce with a parallel soul ... I was still not drawn to physique), and we need not be the same --- I'm not stating we should be. You have your strengths and flaws and I have my strengths and flaws. I doubt either of us can hope to judge one another with any semblance of accuracy, especially via internet lol.

But it seems you tend to read into things and run with them, while I should choose my words more carefully.

I'm not even clear what we're attempting to convey anymore --- I think what I have gathered is that you stated your preferences may not be shaped by your biology, but that your biology insists that something be shaped. And this is what I tend to lean towards, anyway.

There ARE ways for people to destroy / reform / recreate their perspectives / attractions / aversions / thinking processes / habits etc. If you are content in what you desire and believe it to be sound, then there is no need to meddle with such things. You don't need to prove anything to anyone on here --- certainly not me --- for how you live your life is your prerogative.

Most people do have better insights into their own plights and challenges than they can ever for another's --- and I concede to that end that I'm (at least presently) no different.

As far as the value of the physique goes, we should probably just concur that we are too different to understand and relate to one another (for example, I can't comprehend someone truly believing they know the personality of someone they've never met... not to mention those involved in the entertainment industries).

Also, I'm not stating that I think truth is universally the most beautiful. It is just most beautiful to me --- I realize many people find several forms of it to be quite the contrary --- as obscenely hideous. And there's so much to delve in, I'm sure I'm not even aware of even a fraction of all that can be...

BUT I digress!!!!

You do sound like you need a break.

At least a good night's slumber :B

Probably other things Lol, but all in time mm?

Edited October 14, 2011 by OnyxSnowfall

October 14, 2011

Holy cow you guys are still arguing about this?

Some of these posts are like novelas.... my adhd prevents me from reading them:laugh:.

OnyxSnowfall your username sounds like the name of an emo band...are you emo:p?

October 14, 2011

Holy cow you guys are still arguing about this?

Some of these posts are like novelas.... my adhd prevents me from reading them:laugh:.

OnyxSnowfall your username sounds like the name of an emo band...are you emo:p?

I'm emo if you like emo

October 14, 2011

The kind where people admit than men are less shallow than women?

What an utterly futile thing to argue over get upset about.

Some men are shallow.

Some women are shallow.

The scales aren't tipped in either direction - it's pretty even.

October 14, 2011

Holy cow you guys are still arguing about this?

Some of these posts are like novelas.... my adhd prevents me from reading them:laugh:.

Tell me about it. People SURE like to type words. Lots and lots of words.

October 14, 2011

Men are less shallow when it comes to dating. I don't argue that. Men usually approach dating as a numbers game, whereas women do not...This makes men less selective, thus less "shallow".

But, you aren't any less shallow than women when it comes to the type of woman you are ultimately attracted to. Chances are, your bathroom reading material will consist of Playboy or Penthouse, not "I Love Vile and Overweight Women" magazines.

October 14, 2011

Edit: Have you ever heard of a woman with a fat fetish? Unheard of. And these men still find thin people attractive too btw. Men have a much broader choice in them - in what they can find sexually attractive

Oh and it's mostly men that seek good personalities. Most women date arseholes. Again, I'm just being realistic here

Edit: It's the arseholish men that seek good personalities in their women

Can other users hack your account because those "Edits" are mine.

October 14, 2011

I'm emo if you like emo

Only for Halloween .

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