Men are less shallow, deep down we all know this, and yet we don't get any credit for

October 14, 2011

All we get is fantasy Internet lies like "I see slim models dating fat guys all the time"

Guys care less about looks! Heck a guy will bang you just because you are a woman!

I agree that men care much less about looks, and they are nicer in public areas than women, because I know, if an ugly guy approaches me, I'm going to be like Creeper!!!

If he's cute, I'll giggle at everything he says. That's how you can tell when a woman is attractive because she laughs and smiles. Nobody smiles at the creepers unless they are wearing Armani and Tommy Hilfiger and Gucci. If not, move it along.

October 14, 2011

I agree that men care much less about looks, and they are nicer in public areas than women, because I know, if an ugly guy approaches me, I'm going to be like Creeper!!!

If he's cute, I'll giggle at everything he says. That's how you can tell when a woman is attractive because she laughs and smiles. Nobody smiles at the creepers unless they are wearing Armani and Tommy Hilfiger and Gucci. If not, move it along.

Really? Every time I brung this up on other forums all I would get was denial and ****loads of hate. You shouldn't be hated for speaking the truth. I mean I don't hate women. I have a sister. I reason I bring alot of these truths to the Internet (I say **** about men too) is because most people on it act all high and moral and make out that we all live in a Utopian society.

Popular or not, you should get respect for speaking the truth

October 14, 2011

I do buy into the biological wiring, you know why? Because I had my first crush when I was 5, in kindergarten. I knew jack sh*t about the world and how people operated and about human psychology, yet the crush developed all by itself.

Are you sure you didn't know jack-sh*t about the world/human psychology as a 5 year old, or did you not know you knew, but then became aware as you grew that you did? Yes, this is a serious question.

What I mean is, a lot of our knowledge, though we may think we do not know a lot when we're much younger, can be innate and not totally recognized until we take the time to actually think about it as we grow older.

I believe kids know a lot more than they (and adults) think they do. In our youth, we may not be able to properly acknowledge or fully understand exactly what it is we're thinking when it comes to the inner workings of our psyche - but that doesn't mean that the information wasn't already there in you and that you weren't living it. As kids we don't call it 'human psychology' but that doesn't mean we're not participating in it every day.

October 14, 2011

(mm let me put it this way,

it is rather a mixture of nature and nurture --- nature gives us the potential, nurture fills it. NURTURE can be indirect... it could be an observation cast upon our environment or an experience we endure as a by-product of it... or it can be direct... an intent, something controlled and or repetitive --- ...

Humans certainly have the ability to be attracted to things and or repulsed to them [even simultaneously!] --- but what defines those are not something "inherent", beyond capacity)

October 14, 2011

Also, it is simply to convey that if we've come that far --- just consider all the other alterations that occur.

Don't get me wrong, I sometimes do get confused by the ability of some girls/women to change their physical appearance and it does have me wondering occasionally what they look like naturally, but so what?

I think there certainly are situations in which I can be sympathetic with it, but it is my weakness and my own attachment to my image that is doing so. Not going to say it's something it's not.

Again, it's philosophical truths you're speaking about. I can't eat off of that, I don't live along those lines. Well I live along such lines partly, yes, but within acceptable limits.

You're saying that people who attach value to physical beauty are stupid and you don't respect them. I'll not judge you for that, even if you think that about me, but don't be surprised if some people are going to find that shallow on your side.

Our personal tastes diverge here. While I take delight in sifting through facades --- in digging my curious fingers into the chitinous slate of a person and penetrating their layers and gray matters --- I want to know how well someone reflects their personal truths... where is their underbelly and is it pristine or scarred... are they cowards, how often can they overcome their selfishness... etc.

You know what that comes down to Onyx? That comes down to judging people. It's something I try not to do, unless they're hurting others with their behavior.

Do you want me to get off my high horse or to live my life and be happy? Because I've been down there and it's nastyyyy... I like it much more up here

And that's the core of the matter. Just because you have bad experiences regarding that, doesn't say anything about me or anyone else.

You really find it such a crime that I want a beautiful girlfriend? It's not like physical beauty is all I'm looking for you know. I do attach great value to personality and intelligence and those things even grow physical attraction in my opinion. But to deny physical beauty altogether?

What you're talking about is an extreme point of view, I'd expect that from a buddhist monk, but not from a 22 year old girl. That does make you interesting in the sense that you seem wiser than most people of your age, but it also strikes me as if you're talking bullsh*t, not because what you say is incorrect, but because I don't think you can live up to your words under certain circumstances. What I mean is that I doubt how well you know yourself. It's one way to talk like that, but it's whole other ballgame to truly live like that for your entire life. Perhaps your experiences have shaped your opinion on this and you manage to keep this attitude up for the rest of your life. But me, personally, now while I'm single and my hormones are ravaging my body and psychology, I can't do it. I'm not strong enough. But you can't judge me for that. You have not walked in my shoes, you have not lived my life, you haven't been shaped by my experiences, you haven't had the same pressures I've been under.

It developed by itself? I guess you learned to speak by yourself? And you learned to potty train yourself (do you remember learning that? assuming you were young enough --- oh, I presume, just because you can't recall something... means it never occurred, mm?)

YOU were learning the world all around you.

For all you know, you were emulating something.

I couldn't have emulated the feelings of a crush at 5 years old, how could I?

Edited October 14, 2011 by Nexus One

October 14, 2011

I agree that men care much less about looks, and they are nicer in public areas than women, because I know, if an ugly guy approaches me, I'm going to be like Creeper!!!

Not all women would do that, though...

I don't know. Maybe it's just hard for me to find somebody who's actually 'ugly' to me. Maybe that's it. I usually try to find at least a few things I like about a person, since it's very rare that a person has absolutely nothing good about their appearance at all.

October 14, 2011

Are you sure you didn't know jack-sh*t about the world/human psychology as a 5 year old, or did you not know you knew, but then became aware as you grew that you did? Yes, this is a serious question.

I'm fairly sure that I was pretty ignorant at that age. I'll tell you my understanding of girls at that age, it's pretty funny in my opinion.

I was able to speak before I hit age 1 (I kid you not). Up to age 3 I thought boys and girls were exactly the same type of human beings. I had not even given 1 thought about the difference between boys and girls up to that age.

Then one day someone told me, that girls do not have a penis and that they had a hole somewhere. This information unsettled me and made me angry. I thought girls were born wrong and I was angry at them for not having a peepee. I thought, why do they have to have a hole, that's ridiculous? I didn't comprehend that girls couldn't do anything about it. The location of the hole was also somewhat of a mystery to me. I suspected it must be somewhere at the same location where the penis was for boys, but I thought it was a hole slightly below the bellybutton. Again, I thought it was ridiculous.

Up to age 3, THAT was my world regarding boys and girls. Sure my understanding grew as I got 4 and eventually 5, but nobody told me jack sh*t about the dynamics between boys and girls. In that sense I was a pretty innocent kid, you could say my psychology up to that point was fairly unblemished by any in-depth knowledge, whether it's actual knowledge or things I've picked up on from others.

Edited October 14, 2011 by Nexus One

October 14, 2011

Don't get me wrong, I sometimes do get confused by the ability of some girls/women to change their physical appearance and it does have me wondering occasionally what they look like naturally, but so what?

So you're stating that you're alright with being deceived (or that your "biology" is, even if it could mean reproductive distress) so long as your visual senses are appeased? You never question what you're truly drawn to? See, I have to question the "impulses" I have... and try to figure out wtf they come from, what meaning they have, and what they meaning they "could" have... etc etc etc...

Speaking from experience, most of my impulses are not peaches and cream lol. I do not want to be a slave to them...

You're saying that people who attach value to physical beauty are stupid and you don't respect them. I'll not judge you for that, even if you think that about me, but don't be surprised if some people are going to find that shallow on your side.

If I'm considered a hypocrite that's alright --- I do think those who value physical beauty *above all else*, even if just initially, are... indeed... misguided. I can't respect someone who is misguided --- I also lose respect for myself when I become misguided... but it drives me to get back on course.

You really find it such a crime that I want a beautiful girlfriend? It's not like physical beauty is all I'm looking for you know. I do attach great value to personality and intelligence and those things even grow physical attraction in my opinion. But to deny physical beauty all together?

I know, you want EVERYTHING lol... you can't have everything though, life does not work that way... there are pros and cons. Even when one is greedy and attempts to swallow it all up there will be consequences, so to speak --- you have to understand that some things are mutually exclusive, even if they can co-exist in other "combinations"...

I'm not stating you should throw away physical beauty altogether at all. There IS something to physical beauty (it can apparently provide health benefits [likely through joy] for people) --- I'm rather a voyeur of nature though I do not find it sexually enticing heh...

But you may miss an opportunity to behold a truly beautiful thing because it didn't have the initial appearance of one *in your eyes* at that *moment in time*... regardless, it's all about how you perceive it. You DO have more control of yourself and of your values than perhaps you'd like to admit.

What you're talking about is an extreme point of view, I'd expect that from a buddhist monk, but not from a 22 year old girl. That does make you interesting in the sense that you seem wiser than most people of your age, but it also strikes me as if your talking bullsh*t, not because what you say is incorrect, but because I don't think you can live up to your words under certain circumstances.

Oh I'm older than 22

What I mean is that I doubt how well you know yourself. It's one way to talk like that, but it's whole other ballgame to truly live like that for your entire life. Perhaps your experiences have shaped your opinion on this and you manage to keep this attitude up for the rest of your life. But me, personally, now while I'm single and my hormones are ravaging my body and psychology, I can't do it. I'm not strong enough. But you can't judge me for that. You have not walked in my shoes, you have not lived my life, you haven't been shaped by my experiences, you haven't had the same pressures I've been under.

I will concede. I don't have any idea what it's like... and I apologize...

I couldn't have emulated the feelings of a crush at 5 years old, how could I?

When I was 5, I thought my world was over because my sister accidentally popped a balloon that a doctor gave me for coming in with a nail in my little foot. I didn't cry at all when I stepped on the nail... but when my sister popped my balloon, I went nuts lol.

Feelings ARE real to children, but they are often misplaced. A child's world is accumulating in experience and it is developing associations... it is hectic, it is fairly black and white, it is selfish and rightfully infantile. Children learn without thinking about learning. That much is innate --- but what they learn? They can remain unaware about, sometimes for their entire life-span... things that have been learned can also be unlearned and replaced, nonetheless...

Also take into account that humans can rewrite their "memories"... and memories can become more real than what actually took place. What does that mean, anyway? We are essentially products of our "memories" and how we think and feel about them, whether or not they are accurate...

Regardless, it is within the *mind*, more or less... and it could be considered the *biology* of it, but it is not engraved. It is something that is extremely susceptible to influence and to others...

Attraction itself can change over time.

People don't really know how to explain it... saying it's "just the way I was born" or "it's just the way men / women are" is certainly convenient though..

Edited October 14, 2011 by OnyxSnowfall

October 14, 2011

So you're stating that you're alright with being deceived (or that your "biology" is) so long as your visual senses are appeased? You never question what you're truly drawn to?

When you put it that way, then yes I'm partly satisfied if my visual senses are pleased. But I DO question what I'm drawn to, it doesn't stop at the physical.

Speaking from experience, most of my impulses are not peaches and cream lol. I do not want to be a slave to them...

I don't want to be a slave to them either and I'm actually someone with great self-control, but on some things I've caved. Physical beauty is one of them.

I can't uphold certain philosophical truths in life, some things are too extreme, I then cave. That doesn't mean I actually don't hold myself to high philosophical standards, but since my wanting a beautiful girlfriend doesn't hurt anyone, I feel it's ok to cave on that.

If I'm considered a hypocrite that's alright --- I do think those who value physical beauty *above all else*, even if just initially, are... indeed... misguided. I can't respect someone who is misguided --- I also lose respect for myself when I become misguided... but it drives me to get back on course.

I don't think you're a hypocrite. I question how well you know yourself. I've been wrong about myself several times in life. I thought that I was above certain things when I was not. I suspect you're making a similar error. It begs the question. Who here is actually misguided?

I know, you want EVERYTHING lol... you can't have everything though, life does not work that way... there are pros and cons. Even when one is greedy and attempts to swallow it all up there will be consequences, so to speak --- you have to understand that some things are mutually exclusive, even if they can co-exist in other "combinations"...

I've seen girls/women who have everything I want. Sure there might be little things in terms of pro's and cons, but I can get over that.

I'll give you this though. Ever since I wanted to have everything in life, I've not been feeling that well, because achieving that puts an enormous pressure on a human being and achieving that is amazingly complex. But it's not impossible. I don't know what would happen if I fail, but right now I feel success in more ways than one is my only motherf*cking option. It's a perspective I've only developed recently, I never used to be that way, but people change and biological and external factors work on our psychology and we adapt and reconfigure our perspective. To that, we are slaves. I do not stand above that.

But you may miss an opportunity to behold a truly beautiful thing because it didn't have the initial appearance of one *in your eyes* at that *moment in time*... regardless, it's all about how you perceive it. You DO have more control of yourself and of your values than perhaps you'd like to admit.

Just because I want a beautiful girlfriend doesn't mean I don't see beauty in things that might not seem beautiful at first glance. For example, I see beauty in decay. I like ruins and old abandoned factories for example. I can also see beauty in suffering, I'm not religious, but for example in art class in high school I said that the image of Christ on a crucifix was artistically one of the most beautiful things I had ever seen, for both what it represented and in terms of human anatomy and in its simplicity. My peers burned me for that, saying that I was crazy for thinking that.

When I was 5, I thought my world was over because my sister accidentally popped a balloon that a doctor gave me for coming in with a nail in my little foot. I didn't cry at all when I stepped on the nail... but when my sister popped my balloon, I went nuts lol.

Feelings ARE real to children, but they are often misplaced. A child's world is accumulating in experience and it is developing associations... it is hectic, it is fairly black and white, it is selfish and rightfully infantile. Children learn without thinking about learning. That much is innate --- but what they learn? They can remain unaware about, sometimes for their entire life-span... things that have been learned can also be unlearned and replaced, nonetheless...

Also take into account that humans can rewrite their "memories"... and memories can become more real than what actually took place. What does that mean, anyway? We are essentially products of our "memories" and how we think and feel about them, whether or not they are accurate...

Regardless, it is within the *mind*, more or less... and it could be considered the *biology* of it, but it is not engraved. It is something that is extremely susceptible to influence and to others...

Attraction itself can change over time.

People don't really know how to explain it... saying it's "just the way I was born" or "it's just the way men / women are" is certainly convenient though..

My crush was neither misplaced, nor is it a rewritten/false memory, you're really fishing there in a pool without fish.

Edited October 14, 2011 by Nexus One

October 14, 2011

Up to age 3, THAT was my world regarding boys and girls. Sure my understanding grew as I got 4 and eventually 5, but nobody told me jack sh*t about the dynamics between boys and girls. In that sense I was a pretty innocent kid, you could say my psychology up to that point was fairly unblemished by any in-depth knowledge, whether it's actual knowledge or things I've picked up on from others.

But I'm not talking about actual knowledge or things you've picked up on from others, Nexus, or literally about how good your anatomy skills were at a young age. (Funny story, though ). But honestly, that only says how bad said skills were, not about your actual psyche, psychology, or the biology of how you got your first crush at 5. Which is what I mean.

It goes a lot deeper than that. Much of it is subconscious, and it just seems very unlikely that it just 'developed all by itself'. Rarely do things just develop out of nowhere by themselves. And technically, if what caused that young crush was simply biological wiring, then it naturally would've had to be psychological too in some aspect. Since so much of what is biological, ties into psychology.

Ah... Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself. The reason it's so hard to explain is because, just like biology, the psychological nature of it is first nature to us that we don't think twice about it unless we decide to. We just see the side that is most physically obvious to our eyes - the biological side - and pay more attention to that. We don't think as much about what triggers that biological wiring to actually go into effect...

Apologies if I'm pestering you. Quite passionate about this type of stuff, obviously. If you'd like me to drop the subject, I will.

October 14, 2011

Apologies if I'm pestering you. Quite passionate about this type of stuff, obviously. If you'd like me to drop the subject, I will.

There's absolutely no need to apologize. Neither do you have to drop the subject.

I understand that there could be some psychological factors to it and that part of the things I picked up on could have been unconscious. But that then begs the question...why does a human being, which is basically almost a blank slate at that age pick up on THOSE things unconsciously and why would I emulate exactly THAT? There has to be some foundation for that. The most straight forward answer is that that behavior has its roots in our biology in our very building blocks, DNA/RNA. Where else would we draw it from?

I'm not sure why that is such a critical point in this discussion to you and Onyx though.

October 14, 2011

I can't uphold certain philosophical truths in life, some things are too extreme, I then cave. That doesn't mean I actually don't hold myself to high philosophical standards, but since my wanting a beautiful girlfriend doesn't hurt anyone, I feel it's ok to cave on that.

Except for any lovely plain Janes (in your eyes) that may pine for you! ... really though...

So many females feel pressured to be and to remain beautiful. Many reasons, varying and mixed up, are at play here --- but at least a potential and common one is the "belief" that their perceived physical beauty is the paragon to their self-worth. Men often reinforce this when they claim to have a biological need to have a beautiful woman or women (not to say women don't feed it either)... but why is it cemented from those claims [they're everywhere]? Because many women want to be desirable and attractive to a man / men.

We're each accountable for our insecurities, but pushing the "physical beauty" is bound to spawn them (it's not the only thing that is either). It affects behavior, interests, development, perception, ability to experience joy and meaning etc.

Contributing to the emphasis of the beauty of the human vessel has benefited our species more than thwarted it though, mm?

Ah, regardless, none of it is inevitable... it just occurs. It seems even men are becoming adamant about "looking" good.

I don't think you're a hypocrite. I question how well you know yourself. I've been wrong about myself several times in life. I thought that I was above certain things when I was not. I suspect you're making a similar error. It begs the question. Who here is actually misguided?

Oh I am not unerring. I know.

If I am a freak because I don't value human physique (a part from health and my one bane lol [which someone on here pointed out was probably just psychological anyway ;x... and I also don't value it, I admit it's stupid of me]) and am actually misguided then it is so. I can't argue the possibility of it (though I find it unlikely).

I'll give you this though. Ever since I wanted to have everything in life, I've not been feeling that well, because achieving that puts an enormous pressure on a human being and achieving that is amazingly complex. But it's not impossible. I don't know what would happen if I fail, but right now I feel success in more ways than one is my only motherf*cking option.

It does. Expectations and aspirations can be extremely stressful...

If you're determined though you can push through even failures and even if you somehow don't achieve every thing you sought out to... if you can endure it, you'll probably achieve a lot more than if you'd never aimed so high. Someone like me though is too silly to operate that way , I get overwhelmed and then I can't get anything done lol... I tend to achieve more when I focus on one or two things at a time.

Just because I want a beautiful girlfriend doesn't mean I don't see beauty in things that might not seem beautiful at first glance. For example, I see beauty in decay. I like ruins and old abandoned factories for example. I can also see beauty in suffering, I'm not religious, but for example in art class in high school I said that the image of Christ on a crucifix was artistically one of the most beautiful things I had ever seen, for both what it represented and in terms of human anatomy and in its simplicity. My peers burned me for that, saying that I was crazy for thinking that.

Yes, beauty is subjective... but you're also enmeshing incorporeal beauty into your examples. I'm trying to say that the feeling of having perceived beauty is defined through psychology.

And we must go back to physique. Aesthetics, what you define them as. When you look upon that hot little ballerina body , what do you think you're unraveling?

My crush was neither misplaced, nor is it a rewritten/false memory, you're really fishing there in a pool without fish.

no fishies?

Edited October 14, 2011 by OnyxSnowfall

October 14, 2011

In A Rut
Yep, I hate all the sweeping generalizations that are associated with people - who decides who is ugly and who isn't? I don't think anyone is ugly or beautiful on the outside, I think what makes a human beautiful or ugly is what is on the inside. Just because I might not be physically attracted doesn't make you ugly, it just means I am not physically attracted to you.

I feel at times we humans do not treat other people like humans and that's sad because we are all guilty of doing it.

Well hot darn. I actually agree with In A Rut.

October 14, 2011

There's absolutely no need to apologize. Neither do you have to drop the subject.

I understand that there could be some psychological factors to it and that part of the things I picked up on could have been unconscious. But that then begs the question...why does a human being, which is basically almost a blank slate at that age pick up on THOSE things unconsciously and why would I emulate exactly THAT? There has to be some foundation for that. The most straight forward answer is that that behavior has its roots in our biology in our very building blocks, DNA/RNA. Where else would we draw it from?

I'm not sure why that is such a critical point in this discussion to you and Onyx though.

Sigh.

Humans are designed to be sexual.

But what forms that sexuality is expressed in do vary greatly.

DNA may seek to live as long as possible (i.e, have an agenda all on its own) but sexuality is, the majority of the time, expressed in ways that can never result in reproduction.

There's also often a fear / control aspect to sexuality.

Human attraction and repulsion --- a part of chemistry, is heavily influenced by their psychology --- it doesn't help that the environment CAN also influence chemistry --- that even thoughts can influence a person's chemistry, for they can produce/stimulate hormones and even cease them.

I don't know about your 5 year old crush... but what took place before that would probably explain it... and, yes, the fact that humans are capable of feelings (even little ones) and of likes and dislikes.

I was a perverted little girl... but I also had some unsavory experiences. Some of which are vague in retrospection, but that I do attribute to other behaviors and even current desires.

October 14, 2011

I'm not sure why that is such a critical point in this discussion to you and Onyx though.

It's critical because we're -- or I am -- arguing whether such a way of acting is actually biological or is mostly psychological, and therefore actually can be helped and can be changed. It's questioning whether 'biology' is truly a valid explanation to fall back on in the aspect of initial attraction.

It's critical because when people usually say, "It's biological, it can't be helped, I am driven by this biological wiring", it usually generates the opinion of: "I can't change my behaviour", or "It's natural, so why should I change it?" And that is a dangerous way of thinking, not only with this thread subject, but any other controversial subject that deals with sexuality. Seeing as if this line of thinking in regards to men and biological wiring were used in the topic of say, cheating (which it has), then it certainly would not go nearly as well or smoothly as it is right now.

But dare I say, most men would disagree that, "Hey, you cannot use biological wiring or any other sort of biological imperative to excuse the often shallow behaviour that is involved in cheating. Good, decent men would take responsibility for their actions." Some men would say that it's not biological, more, it's psychological - as in something wrong with his thinking (i.e., psyche). Right? So how is that so much different than men being only attracted to very attractive women and that being the main thing they look for in a woman, but they excuse it because, "Hey, it's what comes biologically natural to us as men. What can we do?" Do see what I'm saying?

They completely disregard that very thing they said about cheating being wrong earlier yet use the same 'biological wiring' explanation to validate why they value looks so much in a woman, or why 'they're just made' to only hit on very attractive woman initially -- which yeah, some people see as shallow. Like I said, as long as it's not the only thing they look for, I don't really care. I like an attractive man myself.

It seems, honestly, like cherry-picking basically. Using the explanation/excuse of natural biology to fit into whichever male/female scenario they do or don't see as socially acceptable. Rather than taking responsibility and being honest, instead of being honest about the shallowness by blaming it on their biology.

October 14, 2011

It's critical because we're -- or I am -- arguing whether such a way of acting is actually biological or is mostly psychological, and therefore actually can be helped and can be changed. It's questioning whether 'biology' is truly a valid explanation to fall back on in the aspect of initial attraction.

It's critical because when people usually say, "It's biological, it can't be helped, I am driven by this biological wiring", it usually generates the opinion of: "I can't change my behaviour", or "It's natural, so why should I change it?" And that is a dangerous way of thinking, not only with this thread subject, but any other controversial subject that deals with sexuality. Seeing as if this line of thinking in regards to men and biological wiring were used in the topic of say, cheating (which it has), then it certainly would not go nearly as well or smoothly as it is right now.

But dare I say, most men would disagree that, "Hey, you cannot use biological wiring or any other sort of biological imperative to excuse the often shallow behaviour that is involved in cheating. Good, decent men would take responsibility for their actions." Some men would say that it's not biological, more, it's psychological - as in something wrong with his thinking (i.e., psyche). Right? So how is that so much different than men being only attracted to very attractive women and that being the main thing they look for in a woman, but they excuse it because, "Hey, it's what comes biologically natural to us as men. What can we do?" Do see what I'm saying?

They completely disregard that very thing they said about cheating being wrong earlier yet use the same 'biological wiring' explanation to validate why they value looks so much in a woman, or why 'they're just made' to only hit on very attractive woman initially -- which yeah, some people see as shallow. Like I said, as long as it's not the only thing they look for, I don't really care. I like an attractive man myself.

It seems, honestly, like cherry-picking basically. Using the explanation/excuse of natural biology to fit into whichever male/female scenario they do or don't see as socially acceptable. Rather than taking responsibility and being honest, instead of being honest about the shallowness by blaming it on their biology.

<333 you :love:

This is certainly a big element of my concern and you expressed it so well.

October 14, 2011

Except for any lovely plain Janes (in your eyes) that may pine for you! ... really though...

But I cannot help it if I'm not attracted to someone. I have three main factors that attract me to a girl/woman and 3 ways a woman can attract me so to speak.

The 3 factors are: looks, personality and intelligence.

The 3 ways to attract me are:

1. Drawing me in by her looks so that I want to get to know her (personality)

2. Drawing me in with her personality and make her beauty grow in my eyes in that way.

3. Creating an emotional bond/connection with me.

So many females feel pressured to be and to remain beautiful. Many reasons, varying and mixed up, are at play here --- but at least a potential and common one is the "belief" that their perceived physical beauty is the paragon to their self-worth. Men often reinforce this when they claim to have a biological need to have a beautiful woman or women (not to say women don't feed it either)... but why is it cemented from those claims [they're everywhere]? Because many women want to be desirable and attractive to a man / men.

We're each accountable for our insecurities, but pushing the "physical beauty" is bound to spawn them (it's not the only thing that is either). It affects behavior, interests, development, perception, ability to experience joy and meaning etc.

I agree with you on that. But what do you want me to do about it? Force myself to be with a girl I don't feel attracted to? There's the philosophical side of it all and there the practical side of it. The issue is, how does one implement what you are suggesting in the practical sense? How would you do it without having me be unhappy, disappointed and unattracted?

I don't have the power to flick my fingers and say: "And now my perspective changes, bam!"

Contributing to the emphasis of the beauty of the human vessel has benefited our species more than thwarted it though, mm?

I can't answer that question, I don't know. There are too many variables, and I have too little information to answer such a massive question.

Ah, regardless, none of it is inevitable... it just occurs. It seems even men are becoming adamant about "looking" good.

I used to not give a sh*t about clothes and my own looks. As long as I didn't have to walk naked down the street. But I've kind of turned around on it, because I noticed that girls/women who dressed well and took care of themselves were pleasing on my eyes. So I thought, well if they put in the effort, I might just as well. At least I'll be pleasing someone's eyes.

If I am a freak because I don't value human physique (a part from health and my one bane lol [which someone on here pointed out was probably just psychological anyway ;x... and I also don't value it, I admit it's stupid of me]) and am actually misguided then it is so. I can't argue the possibility of it (though I find it unlikely).

Neither am I saying you're a freak. But at the root both you and I are built from very similar DNA/RNA. Yet you claim to have psychologically transcended the desire for beauty. That's what I'm doubting, in my opinion there are some things that give me a sense that there's a bit of bullsh*t involved in what you're saying. I COULD believe you up to a certain level in the sense that YOU do believe that, but when push comes to shove...I call bullsh*t. Not because I think you're lying and not because I think your points are wrong, but because I really do not think you transcended your own biology. At the very best, I believe that you believe that you've achieved that.

This is something Buddhist monks have to struggle with daily and even they have to admit they're not above that. Yet here's a girl called Onyx who says she truly has. Yet you did not hit on Steven Hawkins. Catch my drift?

I get overwhelmed and then I can't get anything done lol... I tend to achieve more when I focus on one or two things at a time.

I'm actually the exact same way, yet I'm pushing through despite it. It's partly why I'm having such a difficult time with it. But in general it's wearing me down. I haven't had a good night of sleep since last year for example and that's just one of many things.

Yes, beauty is subjective... but you're also enmeshing incorporeal beauty into your examples. I'm trying to say that the feeling of having perceived beauty is defined through psychology.

Yeah I know, they're not the best of examples in that sense. Another example for example is humility in a person that I find beautiful. I also find peace in more than one way beautiful. Or void, no form whatsoever.

And we must go back to physique. Aesthetics, what you define them as. When you look upon that hot little ballerina body , what do you think you're unraveling?

I'm unraveling nothing when I look upon that. When it comes to that I don't feel the need to unravel anything. Sometimes that is enough. I've had my fair share of unraveling in life, it's time for me to live.

Edited October 14, 2011 by Nexus One

October 14, 2011

<333 you :love:

This is certainly a big element of my concern and you expressed it so well.

Thanks. It's certainly a topic of ongoing interest to me -- as you can very well see.

Oi, my nerves. I need a drink. Or four.

October 14, 2011

Sigh.

Humans are designed to be sexual.
But what forms that sexuality is expressed in do vary greatly.
DNA may seek to live as long as possible (i.e, have an agenda all on its own) but sexuality is, the majority of the time, expressed in ways that can never result in reproduction.

There's also often a fear / control aspect to sexuality.

Human attraction and repulsion --- a part of chemistry, is heavily influenced by their psychology --- it doesn't help that the environment CAN also influence chemistry --- that even thoughts can influence a person's chemistry, for they can produce/stimulate hormones and even cease them.

I don't know about your 5 year old crush... but what took place before that would probably explain it... and, yes, the fact that humans are capable of feelings (even little ones) and of likes and dislikes.

I was a perverted little girl... but I also had some unsavory experiences. Some of which are vague in retrospection, but that I do attribute to other behaviors and even current desires.

It's critical because we're -- or I am -- arguing whether such a way of acting is actually biological or is mostly psychological, and therefore actually can be helped and can be changed. It's questioning whether 'biology' is truly a valid explanation to fall back on in the aspect of initial attraction.

You and Onyx seem to be implying that I need to be helped from my "condition" of wanting a beautiful girlfriend. As if it's something that needs to be changed. Why?

It's critical because when people usually say, "It's biological, it can't be helped, I am driven by this biological wiring", it usually generates the opinion of: "I can't change my behaviour", or "It's natural, so why should I change it?" And that is a dangerous way of thinking, not only with this thread subject, but any other controversial subject that deals with sexuality. Seeing as if this line of thinking in regards to men and biological wiring were used in the topic of say, cheating (which it has), then it certainly would not go nearly as well or smoothly as it is right now.

But dare I say, most men would disagree that, "Hey, you cannot use biological wiring or any other sort of biological imperative to excuse the often shallow behaviour that is involved in cheating. Good, decent men would take responsibility for their actions." Some men would say that it's not biological, more, it's psychological - as in something wrong with his thinking (i.e., psyche). Right? So how is that so much different than men being only attracted to very attractive women and that being the main thing they look for in a woman, but they excuse it because, "Hey, it's what comes biologically natural to us as men. What can we do?" Do see what I'm saying?

They completely disregard that very thing they said about cheating being wrong earlier yet use the same 'biological wiring' explanation to validate why they value looks so much in a woman, or why 'they're just made' to only hit on very attractive woman initially -- which yeah, some people see as shallow. Like I said, as long as it's not the only thing they look for, I don't really care. I like an attractive man myself.

It seems, honestly, like cherry-picking basically. Using the explanation/excuse of natural biology to fit into whichever male/female scenario they do or don't see as socially acceptable. Rather than taking responsibility and being honest, instead of being honest about the shallowness by blaming it on their biology.

<333 you :love:

This is certainly a big element of my concern and you expressed it so well.

I never use biology as an excuse for unethical behavior. I've never cheated myself. If any of you two have followed my posts on this forum, then you know I'm one of the most steadfast opponents of cheating on this forum. I lash out at almost everyone who justifies it in one way or another.

You both are assuming that my wanting a beautiful girlfriend has deeper psychological foundations that would cause me to hurt others. That's not the nature of my character. You both are wrong when it comes to that. You both are mistaking me for someone that I'm not.

Resistance to injustice and unethical conduct is one of the strongest embedded aspects in my character.

You both are making this into something that it's not. I don't justify cheating and certainly not because I want a beautiful girlfriend! That's a ridiculous line of logic. This "your wanting a beautiful girlfriend means you'd use the same logic to cheat and justify cheating" is just plain ridiculous.

You girls know you've argued yourselves into a corner with this right?

Edited October 14, 2011 by Nexus One

October 14, 2011

All we get is fantasy Internet lies like "I see slim models dating fat guys all the time"

Well I don't know about "slim models" (mostly because I've only rarely met a girl who looked like she could be one) but I have seen some rather good looking/cute girls dating fat guys. So it does happen.

Guys care less about looks! Heck a guy will bang you just because you are a woman!

I don't know, I guess that happens. I for one wouldn't sleep with a chick I found completely repulsive, and I'm a guy who has very little (if any) options. Perhaps that makes me completely picky though so who knows...

October 14, 2011

You girls know you've argued yourselves into a corner with this right?

Lol mmmmm nooooooo but I have to finish laundry and a couple of other chores.

>B I'll be back.

October 14, 2011

Lol mmmmm nooooooo but I have to finish laundry and a couple of other chores.

>B I'll be back.

I really do wonder how you both are going to talk yourselves out of this one.

Edited October 14, 2011 by Nexus One

October 14, 2011

Sorry. Coffee break.

You and Onyx seem to be implying that I need to be helped from my condition of wanting a beautiful girlfriend. As if it's something that needs to be changed. Why?

Alright. No, I'm not saying it needs to be changed. It's your business what kind of women you want to date, Nexus. I'm just saying that you cannot always fall back on "It's biological, it's natural, I can't help it", or use it as a reason for otherwise unexplainable behavior. Seeing as it could just as likely be psychological. I was trying to make you see how and why it could be psychological just as much as biological. I was trying to make you see that you are not completely helpess or powerless to your biological desires/attractions because the mind can play a part in it as well.

You both are assuming that my wanting a beautiful girlfriend has deeper psychological foundations that would cause me to hurt others. That's not the nature of my character. You both are wrong when it comes to that. You both are mistaking me for someone that I'm not.

Absolutely not, and absolutely missed the point.

You both are making this into something that it's not. I don't justify cheating and certainly not because I want a beautiful girlfriend! That's a ridiculous line of logic. This "your wanting a beautiful girlfriend means you'd use the same logic to cheat and justify cheating" is just plain ridiculous.

You girls know you've argued yourselves into a corner with this right?

Christ, are you kidding? My last intention was to think you'd justify cheating just because you want a beautiful girlfriend. I wasn't trying to attack your character, as I have no right to at this point - or at any point, really. Why would I even be angry about you wanting a beautiful girlfriend, as I just said I wouldn't mind having an attractive man as my boyfriend, too? In that case, I would also be guilty.

My point was, that reasoning could be used just as seamlessly in an argument about physical cheating, thus it is not always a good reason to use as an explanation that something is okay or alright.

But you're right, it is ridiculous. I agree 100%. Because it's not at all what I meant. I'm simply saying, I don't think it's wise to use "It's biological/It's natural/I can't help it" when talking about the physical standards you have, because then it comes off as mindless and helpess about your choices as a human, nevermind oblivious to the psychology that's also involved behind it all. And it's clear from your posts, that those things above are not what you are.

I never thought you'd use that same logic to justify cheating, but someone else could flip it around on you and call you out on it. Which is why I pointed it out. Just like "That's just the way it is" is not always a reasonable answer for anything or any behavior. "It's just biology" isn't either. Just because something may be 'biological wiring' does not always make the way we think or act valid or right, just as using it as an excuse to validate cheating would also not be right. Which we both agree on.

But please, for the love of God, I was not saying you should be ashamed that you want a beautiful girlfriend or that you justify cheating.

Edited October 14, 2011 by Thieves

October 14, 2011

Nexus One is intellectually destroying these two womens.

October 14, 2011

OP just makes me feel embarrassed about being a male. :/ Why would you post this?

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