eleanor01 Posted October 10, 2011 Posted October 10, 2011 xxoo said: I'm glad you are receiving my questions in the tone they are intended There are compromises, but I feel it is important to also have "dealbreakers" on which you will not bend. Otherwise known as "boundaries". It seems to me that OW/OM here sometimes accept things that would be dealbreakers for them in a different type of relationship. For example--their AP having sex with another person sometimes (the spouse). More hurtful behavior is accepted because of the "situation". And I wonder why that is. This is part of the reason I am so bothered by the phrase "the good outweighs the bad". If the bad includes a dealbreaker, it shouldn't matter how good all the rest is. From a general example (not an OW example), I don't care how great this guy makes you feel if he treats your teenage daughter like crap. That's a dealbreaker. But still, women will stay because.....well, that's what I'm trying to figure out Now I'm just rambling....any thoughts on dealbreakers? xxoo--I hope you don't mind that I started a new thread by quoting your post in another thread. I think you've brought up something that could lead to fascinating discussions. So, Folks-- What would be dealbreakers for you? And, please specify your perspective. For example, I could look at the question from the POV of a betrayed spouse (well, cohabitator) towards my partner, or I could look at it from the position of the OW towards my MM. Thanks, Ellie
Spark1111 Posted October 10, 2011 Posted October 10, 2011 xxoo said: xxoo--I hope you don't mind that I started a new thread by quoting your post in another thread. I think you've brought up something that could lead to fascinating discussions. So, Folks-- What would be dealbreakers for you? And, please specify your perspective. For example, I could look at the question from the POV of a betrayed spouse (well, cohabitator) towards my partner, or I could look at it from the position of the OW towards my MM. fBs here...great thread! I don't share my man, never did, never had to. I KNOW my fWS knew this, hence the secrecy. He NEVER wanted me to have the opportunity to have a dating relationship with anyone else. Don't OW get this? I always told him that if you believe in your heart the grass is greener elsewhere, or that you have found someone who you believe loves and respects you more than I do....THE DOOR IS ALWAYS OPEN FOR YOU TO LEAVE. No anger, no acrimony, some heartache and many great memories, but buh-bye. I never slept around. If I was with a man, I was EXCLUSIVE with that man until he or I ended it. Just YUCK to think a man is being sexual with me and someone else at the same time. I would never tolerate that, not even as a single woman. How can the OW?
FelicityShot Posted October 10, 2011 Posted October 10, 2011 So, Folks-- What would be dealbreakers for you? And, please specify your perspective. For example, I could look at the question from the POV of a betrayed spouse (well, cohabitator) towards my partner, or I could look at it from the position of the OW towards my MM. Thanks, Ellie Copied from the other thread: Well, I guess xAP working on his M was a dealbreaker for me as far as the PA went! This involved resuming sex with his W. I think in a M dealbreakers get relaxed - the longer you know someone, the more likely you are to forgive them. In my M, there were 3 dealbreakers over 2 years. Cumulatively they killed it for me, but I was not strong enough to just get out. I was confused. These dealbreakers were also enhanced examples of continuous smaller problems, allowing me to see the faults in the M more fully. If they had been isolated without these added and similar problems, they may not have been breakers. Even dealbreakers have a context.
woinlove Posted October 10, 2011 Posted October 10, 2011 For me, the core of a M or committed R is shared values, and if my H changed or starting living in a way which compromised those shared values, then I don't think our M would survive. I don't feel the same as Spark on exclusivity, but I think most people do, including many people involved in affairs, even if they compromise on that during their A. I was struck by the fact that when open M was discussed in the marriage forum on LS, a few of the people who felt the strongest against open M for anyone were or had been in an A, while some in monogamous, closed M were open to the idea that others may chose differently. I got the sense that this went beyond the fact that some people in affairs value monogamy. I wondered if the alternative of an open M somehow threatened some people in an A, bringing up doubts as to why they chose dishonesty when honesty was an option available to them. Anyway, that's veering off topic, so I'll conclude by saying that openness and honesty are important to me in an R. To be happy, I need to be that way in my M and I need my H to be that too.
bentnotbroken Posted October 10, 2011 Posted October 10, 2011 Dealbreakers: 1)Cheating 2)Lying to cheat. 3)Gas lighting me to make me question my own mental health in order to cheat and lie. 4)Putting my life in danger by having unprotected sex with other people without my knowledge or consent while cheating. 5)Messing with my kids emotional and financial stability because you spent family monies while cheating. 6)Cowardly moves while pretending to be a man.
RainDown Posted October 10, 2011 Posted October 10, 2011 I have dozens of dealbreakers. 1. Mistreatment of my child. 2. Drunkeness 3. Anger management problems/namecalling 4. Financial irresponsibility 5. Deceptiveness 6. Drug use 7. Failure to follow through on obligations/responsibilities 8. Criminal activity 9. Cruelty to animals 10. Gambling 11. Poor personal hygiene 12. Other sex partners 13. Failure to hold a job 14. Failure to support children/pay child support 15. Physical violence/intimidation 16. Verbal abuse 17. Manipulation 18. Guilt trips Hence the reason I've been single practically forever. I don't understand why people put up with any crap from anyone. Cheating is only one dealbreaker and not even the worst one. Why that particular "dealbreaker" gets the most discussion is beyond me. I get rid of anybody who violates anything on the list; it doesn't really matter which one it is.
MissBee Posted October 10, 2011 Posted October 10, 2011 I'm looking at the question from the POV of how I approach relationships in general. I found an interesting tool useful in assessing someone for a relationship i.e. having 3 absolute yeses, 3 absolute Nos, and 3 things you need to make you feel loved and secure in a relationship. I check people against that list, in terms of me deciding to invest in them. Casually engaging with someone with a deal breaker is one thing, and I have done that....but I know that I would never take it to the next level and actually invest and try to plan a future with them if they have one of my absolute Nos. The absolute Nos are then stronger than the other categories, as if one is there, it cancels out the others. But really it works in unison as the things I need to make me feel secure can't coexist with the Nos and so on. Every single time I have "compromised" on core things....it has turned out for the worst and the very things I purposefully overlooked came up later as problems that couldn't be worked out, then it felt like a waste as I kneww! So it doesn't make sense to me anymore to see a deal breaker and compromise on it [in a serious relationship].
MissBee Posted October 10, 2011 Posted October 10, 2011 For me, the core of a M or committed R is shared values, and if my H changed or starting living in a way which compromised those shared values, then I don't think our M would survive. I don't feel the same as Spark on exclusivity, but I think most people do, including many people involved in affairs, even if they compromise on that during their A. I was struck by the fact that when open M was discussed in the marriage forum on LS, a few of the people who felt the strongest against open M for anyone were or had been in an A, while some in monogamous, closed M were open to the idea that others may chose differently. I got the sense that this went beyond the fact that some people in affairs value monogamy. I wondered if the alternative of an open M somehow threatened some people in an A, bringing up doubts as to why they chose dishonesty when honesty was an option available to them. Anyway, that's veering off topic, so I'll conclude by saying that openness and honesty are important to me in an R. To be happy, I need to be that way in my M and I need my H to be that too. I love your response . I value monogamy myself, but the point is, like you, I feel like in a serious relationship I have to be with someone whose core values are in sync with my own and if either of us has to shift our values to be together, then I don't think we should be together. The idea of needing certain things to be happy is reflected in my previous post as well, where there are things I can probably live with and be "okay" but if I am going to be exclusive and worst yet, marry someone, I can't just have what's "good enough" but what makes me happy.
alexandria35 Posted October 10, 2011 Posted October 10, 2011 Raindown I like your list and agree that any one of those things could be a dealbreaker for me, however I do think marriage makes it a little different. For example say I was married and my husband when through a period of being deeply depressed for whatever reason. During this time he becomes unemployed and maybe doesn't practice stellar hygiene. Do I immediately end a longterm marriage because his behaviour has taken a bad turn or do I stay and continue to believe in him and our marriage? I don't know what I would do honestly. I guess I would make that decision based on the history of my marriage and who I know my husband to be. I have walked out on more than one longterm relationship for some of the dealbreakers you mentioned. Mainly verbal/emotional abuse, uncontrolled temper, and financial manipulation, but what it really came down to was how I percieved my partners feelings about me. I felt that they didn't truly love or respect me, they felt I was stupid and incapable of taking a stand for myself and I realized that as long as I remained they were going to continue right on doing what they were doing just cause they felt like they could. Blatant disrespect is what it came down to I guess. By the way, cheating gets the most discussion here most likely because it's a board about cheating. If you were on a support board for the partners of drug addicts I don't think cheating would be the number one topic and I don't find it to be the main topic in real life either.
MissBee Posted October 10, 2011 Posted October 10, 2011 I have dozens of dealbreakers. 1. Mistreatment of my child. 2. Drunkeness 3. Anger management problems/namecalling 4. Financial irresponsibility 5. Deceptiveness 6. Drug use 7. Failure to follow through on obligations/responsibilities 8. Criminal activity 9. Cruelty to animals 10. Gambling 11. Poor personal hygiene 12. Other sex partners 13. Failure to hold a job 14. Failure to support children/pay child support 15. Physical violence/intimidation 16. Verbal abuse 17. Manipulation 18. Guilt trips Hence the reason I've been single practically forever. I don't understand why people put up with any crap from anyone. Cheating is only one dealbreaker and not even the worst one. Why that particular "dealbreaker" gets the most discussion is beyond me. I get rid of anybody who violates anything on the list; it doesn't really matter which one it is. I agree, although all my dealbreakers encompass similar qualities as cheating...in terms of it includes lying to me, making me feel insecure, eroding trust etc. Any behavior that does that is a dealbreaker for me
Spark1111 Posted October 10, 2011 Posted October 10, 2011 For me, the core of a M or committed R is shared values, and if my H changed or starting living in a way which compromised those shared values, then I don't think our M would survive. I don't feel the same as Spark on exclusivity, but I think most people do, including many people involved in affairs, even if they compromise on that during their A. I was struck by the fact that when open M was discussed in the marriage forum on LS, a few of the people who felt the strongest against open M for anyone were or had been in an A, while some in monogamous, closed M were open to the idea that others may chose differently. I got the sense that this went beyond the fact that some people in affairs value monogamy. I wondered if the alternative of an open M somehow threatened some people in an A, bringing up doubts as to why they chose dishonesty when honesty was an option available to them. Anyway, that's veering off topic, so I'll conclude by saying that openness and honesty are important to me in an R. To be happy, I need to be that way in my M and I need my H to be that too. About the bolded: If BOTH partners honestly disclose and together agree on this, more power to them! It's their marriage, and if it is their choice, no problemo for me. Again, dishonesty and deception, IMO, are used to control the behavior of the unsuspecting spouse. Love, schmove.
RainDown Posted October 10, 2011 Posted October 10, 2011 Raindown I like your list and agree that any one of those things could be a dealbreaker for me, however I do think marriage makes it a little different. For example say I was married and my husband when through a period of being deeply depressed for whatever reason. During this time he becomes unemployed and maybe doesn't practice stellar hygiene. Do I immediately end a longterm marriage because his behaviour has taken a bad turn or do I stay and continue to believe in him and our marriage? I don't know what I would do honestly. I guess I would make that decision based on the history of my marriage and who I know my husband to be. I have walked out on more than one longterm relationship for some of the dealbreakers you mentioned. Mainly verbal/emotional abuse, uncontrolled temper, and financial manipulation, but what it really came down to was how I percieved my partners feelings about me. I felt that they didn't truly love or respect me, they felt I was stupid and incapable of taking a stand for myself and I realized that as long as I remained they were going to continue right on doing what they were doing just cause they felt like they could. Blatant disrespect is what it came down to I guess. By the way, cheating gets the most discussion here most likely because it's a board about cheating. If you were on a support board for the partners of drug addicts I don't think cheating would be the number one topic and I don't find it to be the main topic in real life either. No, I wouldn't leave my partner or husband if he had a period of clinical depression and lost his job and refused to shower for a week. I would support him through his treatment and recovery and help him get back on his feet. Things happen, people can go off the rails for a time, people can make errors in judgment or fly off the handle temporarily under stress. I expect people to have problems now and then, but I expect them to handle them, acknowledge them, and solve them constructively. When they cannot, or will not, or when I see those dealbreakers within a few months of a relationship, I'm out of there at the first sign. For example, on a date a while back my date began to talk about his ex-wife and his child support woes. He told me he was hiding money anywhere he could think of so his ex-wife couldn't take him back to court to have his child support increased. I listened politely, but in my head that was an immediate and non-negotiable dealbreaker and I never went out with him again. I guess what I'm saying is that the dealbreakers on my list are issues that one normally can spot in short order and certainly before you actually marry someone, which I would not do if I saw any of those indicators while dating someone. I think people overlook and excuse too much early on, which just leads to major problems later on.
woinlove Posted October 10, 2011 Posted October 10, 2011 (edited) Lots of good points in the posts. I agree with Rain's list and would connect that to core values and I also agree with alexandria's point about long M's making things a bit different. As a more extreme example, I have friends whose spouses exhibited some of the behavior on Rain's dealbreaker list, but only in the later stages of Alzheimer's. It was tragic, heartbreaking, but they carried on, loving and caring for their ill spouse the best they could. Such are the loving bonds of a committed M. However, Rain's list is to be taken with the understanding that the person's control has not been robbed by illness or brain damage, whether temporary or permanent. ETA: not that every point on Rain's list would be on mine. Obviously not the no other sex partners. Also not the not holding a job. My H does and always has, but so have I and I can imagine being happy with someone who devoted his life to volunteering and non-paying pursuits. Edited October 10, 2011 by woinlove
xxoo Posted October 10, 2011 Posted October 10, 2011 xxoo--I hope you don't mind that I started a new thread by quoting your post in another thread. I think you've brought up something that could lead to fascinating discussions. I don't mind! I think in a M dealbreakers get relaxed - the longer you know someone, the more likely you are to forgive them.. I wonder if this is widely true. My first reaction is to disagree. Maybe it depends on what is a "dealbreaker". To me, dealbreakers are things that put me or my kids at significant risk: physically, financially, emotionally. Examples that fall in this area are: drinking and driving with the kids, losing jobs to addiction, going in debt for addictions, sex with other partners (when claiming to be monogamous), untreated mental illness, abuse of ANY kind, and others. So far we've not encountered anything like this in our marriage. By the grace of God alone? I'm open to that possibility. But the bottom line is, I am confident that I can create a healthy, happy, FUNCTIONAL life for me and my children on my own. Anyone who is working against that really has to go Cheating is only one dealbreaker and not even the worst one. Why that particular "dealbreaker" gets the most discussion is beyond me. I agree, which is why I included a different on in my original question (mistreatment of a teen child). But another specific to the OW/OM situation, for consideration, is simply being denied as a significant part of your AP's life. Who would tolerate that in a typical relationship? I'm guessing not many. So, why is it tolerable in this situation?
MissBee Posted October 10, 2011 Posted October 10, 2011 I don't mind! I wonder if this is widely true. My first reaction is to disagree. Maybe it depends on what is a "dealbreaker". To me, dealbreakers are things that put me or my kids at significant risk: physically, financially, emotionally. Examples that fall in this area are: drinking and driving with the kids, losing jobs to addiction, going in debt for addictions, sex with other partners (when claiming to be monogamous), untreated mental illness, abuse of ANY kind, and others. So far we've not encountered anything like this in our marriage. By the grace of God alone? I'm open to that possibility. But the bottom line is, I am confident that I can create a healthy, happy, FUNCTIONAL life for me and my children on my own. Anyone who is working against that really has to go I agree, which is why I included a different on in my original question (mistreatment of a teen child). But another specific to the OW/OM situation, for consideration, is simply being denied as a significant part of your AP's life. Who would tolerate that in a typical relationship? I'm guessing not many. So, why is it tolerable in this situation? I think it's why people tolerate all kinds of things....the age old "Welll nothing is perfect" drops in, or there is a belief of it being some special exception for a special circumstance or that things will change or just really not caring because you're enjoying the good feelings for now.... I think once you get into an A you've implicitly agreed to tolerate certain things. In a thread discussing MPs being upset that single OPs date I brought up the point that when they got with you, a lot of times, you were single and if you're having an affair that mimics a regular relationship then believe it or not, they expect exclusivity on your part as most people do in a relationship. They do not think about the fact that they're not single, because you essentially agreed to date them while knowing their status and they expect you to just ignore that aspect and be faithful and behave like it is a regular scenario. On your end though, you're "breaking" the deal because you've stopped being single. Which really goes back to Woinlove's point about most people, even those in affairs, value and expect exclusivity/monogamy.
Spark1111 Posted October 10, 2011 Posted October 10, 2011 Raindown I like your list and agree that any one of those things could be a dealbreaker for me, however I do think marriage makes it a little different. For example say I was married and my husband when through a period of being deeply depressed for whatever reason. During this time he becomes unemployed and maybe doesn't practice stellar hygiene. Do I immediately end a longterm marriage because his behaviour has taken a bad turn or do I stay and continue to believe in him and our marriage? I don't know what I would do honestly. I guess I would make that decision based on the history of my marriage and who I know my husband to be. I have walked out on more than one longterm relationship for some of the dealbreakers you mentioned. Mainly verbal/emotional abuse, uncontrolled temper, and financial manipulation, but what it really came down to was how I percieved my partners feelings about me. I felt that they didn't truly love or respect me, they felt I was stupid and incapable of taking a stand for myself and I realized that as long as I remained they were going to continue right on doing what they were doing just cause they felt like they could. Blatant disrespect is what it came down to I guess. By the way, cheating gets the most discussion here most likely because it's a board about cheating. If you were on a support board for the partners of drug addicts I don't think cheating would be the number one topic and I don't find it to be the main topic in real life either. Great post! Yes dealbreakers must be taking in context to a long term partnership within reason. As long as efforts are ongoing to treat the depression, the addiction, the job loss and positive and proactive steps are happening to right the ship, the marriage can successfully survive. It is about respect, I agree.
Owl Posted October 10, 2011 Posted October 10, 2011 I think it's really, really hard to truly define a deal-breaker...until you're confronted with something that you realize you need to decide is one or isn't one. Most people have things that they consider a deal-breaker...but then when they're actually faced with it in their relationship, it turns out not to be. Hard to know, until you're there.
fooled once Posted October 11, 2011 Posted October 11, 2011 I agree with alexandria and Spark. Number #1 deal breaker for me is having an affair. I have no desire to share my husband and he has no desire to share me, his wife. Unless it is an agreed upon open marriage, it is a complete and utter show of disrespect. I always wonder why so many accept any form of disrespect.
Elizabeth Southerns Posted October 11, 2011 Posted October 11, 2011 What would be dealbreakers for you? And, please specify your perspective. In ANY R (family, friends, lover, etc) * being disrespected * not sharing core values * an unequal commitment to maintaining the R In a Romantic R * losing interest sexually
Radagast Posted October 11, 2011 Posted October 11, 2011 I think it's really, really hard to truly define a deal-breaker...until you're confronted with something that you realize you need to decide is one or isn't one. Most people have things that they consider a deal-breaker...but then when they're actually faced with it in their relationship, it turns out not to be. Hard to know, until you're there. I am amazed in retrospect how many "dealbreakers" I just accepted with my ex-wife. A large part of that was the way my self-respect had been progressively eroded over the years in the marriage. It is much easier to have firm boundaries when one has strong self-esteem. One thing I would never accept in a partner now is their having two sets of standards - one for themselves where everything goes, and one for everyone else.
Author eleanor01 Posted October 11, 2011 Author Posted October 11, 2011 One thing I would never accept in a partner now is their having two sets of standards - one for themselves where everything goes, and one for everyone else. I am the one who started this thread and as I read the responses, I kept thinking about the times when I just kept putting up with sheer nastiness from my alcoholic partner. I mean, seriously bad stuff. Any one of those should have been a dealbreaker, had I not been so completely befuddled. Now, I feel like mostly only the most heinous of actions would be an automatic dealbreaker for me. Other offenses I would try to work out, at least for a time. But what you are saying about the hypocrisy just nails how I feel about other (non-heinous) possible offenses. I'd think about the context, etc., but if it ever became clear that he had two sets of standards, well then, I'd fly away home. Thanks, Ellie
Radagast Posted October 11, 2011 Posted October 11, 2011 I am the one who started this thread and as I read the responses, I kept thinking about the times when I just kept putting up with sheer nastiness from my alcoholic partner. I mean, seriously bad stuff. Any one of those should have been a dealbreaker, had I not been so completely befuddled. Now, I feel like mostly only the most heinous of actions would be an automatic dealbreaker for me. Other offenses I would try to work out, at least for a time. But what you are saying about the hypocrisy just nails how I feel about other (non-heinous) possible offenses. I'd think about the context, etc., but if it ever became clear that he had two sets of standards, well then, I'd fly away home. Thanks, Ellie Experience is a bitter teacher, but a good one.
MissBee Posted October 11, 2011 Posted October 11, 2011 I am amazed in retrospect how many "dealbreakers" I just accepted with my ex-wife. A large part of that was the way my self-respect had been progressively eroded over the years in the marriage. It is much easier to have firm boundaries when one has strong self-esteem. One thing I would never accept in a partner now is their having two sets of standards - one for themselves where everything goes, and one for everyone else. Oh yess....I had two exes like this smh. The double standards where a mile long. When they did particular things it was more than acceptable and somehow justifiable but if I did it, it was a cardinal sin. I definitely need someone who doesn't change the rules up as they go along to suit them or who expects me to accept things from them that they'd NEVER accept from me.
Summer Breeze Posted October 11, 2011 Posted October 11, 2011 I have 2 dealbreakers Don't ever cheat on me Don't ever raise your hand to a woman or a child, and only to a man if there is no other choice They are dealbreakers without question. I was tested on number 1 and after many, many conversations about me not tolerating cheating the idiot still did it. Then he was shocked because I ended the M. Go figure. I disagree that somehow dealbreakers shift. Maybe I have such a small list because I think many of the other things are issues that can be addressed and I can see working through, or at least trying. To me a dealbreaker is just what it says on the tin. As far as being an OW I set my boundaries at the start of the A and he agreed to them. I had 1 dealbreaker-don't ever, ever, ever lie to me. He oddly accepted and accepted my boundaries on the A and I never caught him in a lie. Keeping in mind we had many ddays and I spoke to his W after each of them and sometimes in between there was a lot of room for discovering any he might have told me.
Summer Breeze Posted October 11, 2011 Posted October 11, 2011 xxoo said: xxoo--I hope you don't mind that I started a new thread by quoting your post in another thread. I think you've brought up something that could lead to fascinating discussions. So, Folks-- What would be dealbreakers for you? And, please specify your perspective. For example, I could look at the question from the POV of a betrayed spouse (well, cohabitator) towards my partner, or I could look at it from the position of the OW towards my MM. fBs here...great thread! I don't share my man, never did, never had to. I KNOW my fWS knew this, hence the secrecy. He NEVER wanted me to have the opportunity to have a dating relationship with anyone else. Don't OW get this? I always told him that if you believe in your heart the grass is greener elsewhere, or that you have found someone who you believe loves and respects you more than I do....THE DOOR IS ALWAYS OPEN FOR YOU TO LEAVE. No anger, no acrimony, some heartache and many great memories, but buh-bye. I never slept around. If I was with a man, I was EXCLUSIVE with that man until he or I ended it. Just YUCK to think a man is being sexual with me and someone else at the same time. I would never tolerate that, not even as a single woman. How can the OW? The bolded-Don't OW get what? It's secret because it's an A and he doesn't want to rock the boat. Sure he doesn't want you seeing anyone else, almost as much as he doesn't want you to know he is seeing someone else. I guess I'm not perfect. I love to date. I love going out on dates and sometimes it's just 1 with a man and sometimes it turns into Rs. Sometimes it's something I really want to explore but I'm not convinced so I might see someone else. I very seldom have been sleeping with more than 1 man at a given time but it has happened.
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