Affairs are outside the box

[spice4life]

What a fantastic breakthrough! Happy for you!!

 

Thank you. It's a liberating.

[spice4life]

Girrllll....I so know what you mean!

 

I am excited to date with my "new eyes" and I too have began to question whether or not men I used to claim to not be attracted to, were because of dysfunctional reasons and not because they were indeed unsuitable candidates (as clearly most of those whom I was so smitten with and thought were the bee's knees...were in fact not so suitable...hmmm) . But my new dating style is one that is very slow and one in which I am very observant of my thoughts, feelings, reactions and their behavior. I think before I was full speed ahead believing that the ultimate outcome of dating was I needed to end up with them and now I see dating as a discovery in which I do not need to attach myself or start planning our future immediately but I can truly explore and LEARN about myself, about them and whether or not they are a good match for me to give my heart and body too in an exclusive, possibly LTR scenario.

 

 

It is exciting and scary; scary in that I don't want to feel crushed if I feel like I'm still making poor choices and feeling like OMG Have you not learned MissBee???!!! But exciting in that if I do realize I am still making poor choices, I am much better at self-correcting and am a lot more able now to say "Hmmm....I guess I have more work to do". Being AWARE in and of itself is BEAUTIFUL It's not to say you will be perfect and never err but unlike before where I made poor choice after poor choice and had no clue how to stop it or that it was even poor and it was my doing...now I am capable of stopping myself mid-decision and actually reflect and can be an agent in my own life choices. It's a great thing. We're not perfect but it's that process of authentically admitting AND working through it that makes the difference versus continuing blissfully ignorant, in denial or simply refusing to do better.

 

Excellent! It's a journey right? Growth and self awareness are difinitely a beautiful thing!!! In the end, that is all that matters anyway. When it's our time to leave this lovely school called earth, we are asking, "what have I learned and what kind of wisdom will I leave behind for the ones I love."

[MissBee]

Actually, felicityshot, have you ever asked yourself "why" you didn't have a stronger reaction? Objectively speaking, it appears that you would rather "bend" to understand their weaknesses than feel the intense emotions of anger and hurt these situations bring. I do agree that you are suffering from abandonment issues because this kind of thinking is created by the core of this problem. It's a symptom of abandonment issues. It's like you drive by the warning signs and instead, bend yourself to "fit" the situation. I've BTDT and it wasn't until I realized that anger is a normal emotion that should not be swept under the carpet. In addition to the trauma I experienced, I was also taught, as a child, that anger and sadness were not healthy emotions. My parents only had the capacity to deal with the "feel good" emotions.

Something to think about anyway.

 

Great points...I was sort of curious about that as well.

 

My friend had a gf who was a very "nice" girl....too nice....it was a pathological nice in that in growing up she too was taught that negative emotions (anger, sadness etc) were "bad" so she grew to always put on a happy face, nothing ever bothered her, she always seemed happy go lucky etc but the truth was, she was emotionally stunted! It didn't seem pathological, she just seemed nice, until as their relationship progressed it became very obvious that she lacked a range of emotions and lacked the ability to feel true emotions about anything and deal with hurt, pain etc. She was not "more evolved", she simply had no clue how to manage any emotion other than being nice and bending to fit situations, such that, everything was permissible and acceptable.

 

She did eventually seek help and began to learn how to feel the range of emotions and healthily express them, and more importantly have actual opinions and feelings about what was okay and what was absolutely not okay versus always being "happy" or having no standards, so that all was okay.

[FelicityShot]

Great points...I was sort of curious about that as well.

 

My friend had a gf who was a very "nice" girl....too nice....it was a pathological nice in that in growing up she too was taught that negative emotions (anger, sadness etc) were "bad" so she grew to always put on a happy face, nothing ever bothered her, she always seemed happy go lucky etc but the truth was, she was emotionally stunted! It didn't seem pathological, she just seemed nice, until as their relationship progressed it became very obvious that she lacked a range of emotions and lacked the ability to feel true emotions about anything and deal with hurt, pain etc. She was not "more evolved", she simply had no clue how to manage any emotion other than being nice and bending to fit situations, such that, everything was permissible and acceptable.

 

She did eventually seek help and began to learn how to feel the range of emotions and healthily express them, and more importantly have actual opinions and feelings about what was okay and what was absolutely not okay versus always being "happy" or having no standards, so that all was okay.

 

OK MissBee and Spice,

 

So I am having some negative emotions right now! Just a little anger at not being taken by my word!

 

Perhaps it's an overreaction to your essentially kind posts, but I really did work through lots of negative emotions after xAP split. I fell in love, didn't stop myself, and went through pain like - well like you guys can well imagine.

[spice4life]

I have no idea who I might attract in the future.

 

This is a very important question to answer before you put yourself out there again. Not knowing the "essence" of the type of man you want in your life can leave you vulnerable making the same mistakes again. It's okay to not know whether they will be tall, short, medium, thin, stocky etc. though.

 

In answer to your question HELL YES! I was a wreck before I got to here. I still grieve a little, but it is blame free for him and myself. I miss him. That's OK.

 

Coming to a place of acceptance and forgiveness is good! There is nothing wrong with not being bitter....I'm not either. I don't believe in staying stuck in the negative, but it is absolutely necessary to grieve the loss and feel all of the emotions associated with it.

 

 

Answers in bold.

[xxoo]

Perhaps it's an overreaction to your essentially kind posts, but I really did work through lots of negative emotions after xAP split. I fell in love, didn't stop myself, and went through pain like - well like you guys can well imagine.

 

Did he end the affair?

 

Did you?

 

Willingness to stay in the affair as OW, while he remains married, and wanting more is significant "bending".

[spice4life]

OK MissBee and Spice,

 

So I am having some negative emotions right now! Just a little anger at not being taken by my word!

 

Perhaps it's an overreaction to your essentially kind posts, but I really did work through lots of negative emotions after xAP split. I fell in love, didn't stop myself, and went through pain like - well like you guys can well imagine.

 

Don't get me wrong felicityshot, I am just asking these questions to get a better understanding of what you to lead you to this place (meaning thinking). That's great that you felt all of the emotions associated with the loss. So in essence, you are at place of acceptance and forgiveness...that's great! That's the way it should be and now that you've answered the questions and I completely understand. I apologize if I missed those points in the thread - I admittedly didn't read every post.

 

Sorry if this offended you in anyway. It wasn't meant that way.

[FelicityShot]

Did he end the affair?

 

Did you?

 

Willingness to stay in the affair as OW, while he remains married, and wanting more is significant "bending".

 

I think it's fair to say he did, in deciding to work on his M. I am not clear whether he wanted to continue the A while doing this, but I could not have countenanced it.

 

We wanted to stay friends, but DDay put an end to that - which was his doing. He then went NC with a vengeance - hence the feeling abandoned.

 

I was happy to stay OW while his M was dead, though I felt I needed to end mine.

 

He said he needed to stay until kids were grown - this didn't bother me at all. Didn't feel like bending. May have grown into that though.

 

I agree this wouldn't have been a good way forward, again something he saw more clearly than I did at the time.

[FelicityShot]

Don't get me wrong felicityshot, I am just asking these questions to get a better understanding of what you to lead you to this place (meaning thinking). That's great that you felt all of the emotions associated with the loss. So in essence, you are at place of acceptance and forgiveness...that's great! That's the way it should be and now that you've answered the questions and I completely understand. I apologize if I missed those points in the thread - I admittedly didn't read every post.

 

Sorry if this offended you in anyway. It wasn't meant that way.

 

OK. Got you. Thanks

[Silly_Girl]

It may be more denial than a lack of suspicion.

 

Sums up the BS many times.

[xxoo]

I was happy to stay OW while his M was dead, though I felt I needed to end mine.

 

He said he needed to stay until kids were grown - this didn't bother me at all. Didn't feel like bending. May have grown into that though.

 

Interesting that it didn't feel like bending. Any chance that you don't recognize when you are incrementally bending? In retrospect, did you recognize when you were bending in your marriage early on?

 

"Dead" marriages can take many forms, often including sex (occasional, or regular). Read more on this board for examples!

[heartinlove]

I have felt much more" addicted" to single men, when I have been single, than I ever felt with MM. That feeling is common in the beginning of love affairs, and not specifically just married affairs.And speaking as someone that worked as a therapist for many years, treating all affairs as addiction or fog, is the height of counselor stupidity. People are all individuals, there love is unique to them, and should be treated as such.

 

I specialized in drug addiction therapy, and to liken an affair to a drug addiction is ignorance. So in 20 years, I have counceled hundred of drug addicts,( and been one myself) and many people in affairs, and I can answer, they are not the same. One is expansive and reaching for life, the other is reductionist, and hoping for death.

An affair is nothing like heroin addiction.and the people who make these studies, have obviously never experienced both.

 

Thanks for that contribution. You said that very well.

[AnnaMaria09]

It was someone saying 'I want to feel alive, damn it!'.

 

No, actually, it wasn't. It was about something THINKING it, but not saying it, at least not to the spouse involved. That's the whole point.

 

I think it's sad that what people who are involved in affairs don't get is that the lying is the real issue. Anyone has a right to love whoever they want, and anyone has a right to have sex with whoever they want. But going behind a spouse's back to do it -- that shows a complete lack of integrity. It doesn't matter what the excuse is -- fear of divorce, finances, children involved, whatever. We all have excuses whenever we do the wrong thing. Doesn't make it any less wrong.

[Silly_Girl]

So in that case every connection including between a husband and wife, between a mother and a newborn is governed by chemicals that are released in a brain. Does that mean the the bond between a mother and her newborn should also be treated as an addiction, since that intense bond also involves chemicals that are released into the body of a woman after birth? Should all bonds between all people which all by the way involve chemicals in the brain be treated as an addiction? With this line of thinking, then also then the bond between a husband and wife is also an addiction. Chemicals and brain chemistry is what bonds all humans to one another that is why it makes no sense to me to treat all affairs as addictions.

 

Really a very good point and that's why there wasn't a decent response when you posted it.

[FelicityShot]

Interesting that it didn't feel like bending. Any chance that you don't recognize when you are incrementally bending? In retrospect, did you recognize when you were bending in your marriage early on?

 

"Dead" marriages can take many forms, often including sex (occasional, or regular). Read more on this board for examples!

 

It didn't feel like bending because it suited me too. I could see that me being in a new R would devastate xH, so a clandestine one would circumvent that issue. I needed xH to heal.

 

Actually, I see now that it has been far better that I have quit the M alone. No crutch.

 

I am not sure about bending in my M. There are compromises in a R. I have never been 'wet' and unable to stick up for myself. But one thing I have done a lot is look at things from the point of view of others, and I can see that I lost myself as the central point of my own life as a result. Perhaps why my A had a 'seize the day for me' component.

 

Thanks for these simple but thoughtful Qs. It is helpful to think about them

 

Dead Ms? Yes, I see a lot of it around me. It's sad. I agree there are different types.

 

One type, which is where I was, one or both partners want to leave the M and don't want to at the same time. There was still sex in my M, pre A.

 

I read somewhere (sorry can't remember source, so take it or leave it) about divorce prediction for a M. They took couples at one point in time and asked them a load of Qs about the R, then revisited 10 years later. The biggest predictive factor was if at the earlier time they had already discussed splitting up. Two thirds (as far as my memory goes - it was a big majority figure) of these were divorced ten years later.

 

For many, it's a slow painful process.

[FelicityShot]

No, actually, it wasn't. It was about something THINKING it, but not saying it, at least not to the spouse involved. That's the whole point.

 

I think it's sad that what people who are involved in affairs don't get is that the lying is the real issue. Anyone has a right to love whoever they want, and anyone has a right to have sex with whoever they want. But going behind a spouse's back to do it -- that shows a complete lack of integrity. It doesn't matter what the excuse is -- fear of divorce, finances, children involved, whatever. We all have excuses whenever we do the wrong thing. Doesn't make it any less wrong.

 

Back to wrong and right again.

 

Deception is ONE of the issues.

[Kitsune77]

I have been following this interesting thread started by FS, but have not had time to really reply properly. So I don't T/J I am thinking of starting a thread on addiction('substance versus relationships) as it is something that is mentioned a lot . I also agree with SreveS,I really like the intelligent discourse that is happening from everyone:)

 

it

Wait a minute here....

 

Some affairs may actually be about love, in which case the client is counseled to pursue the relationship that is more loving and healthier for them.

 

But most affairs are about the addiction to feeling MORE ALIVE, while most drug addictions are about DROWNING PAIN.

 

Deal with the true emotions particular to each case, the core of those feelings, and the client is served.

 

But the behaviors exhibited in an addiction, any addiction, are very, very similiar, whether it be an affair or a substance.

[Kitsune77]

Actually I agree with a lot of what you say there, but there are important differences that need to be explored.

[woinlove]

Back to wrong and right again.

 

Deception is ONE of the issues.

 

Deception is one of the issues in what?

 

The post you were responding to was saying it is the deception that is wrong and the issue with an affair. Previously, a poster had compared affairs to an open marriage and pointed out the key difference is in the deceit. Not sure what you are referring to where deception is one of the issues.

[FelicityShot]

Deception is one of the issues in what?

 

The post you were responding to was saying it is the deception that is wrong and the issue with an affair. Previously, a poster had compared affairs to an open marriage and pointed out the key difference is in the deceit. Not sure what you are referring to where deception is one of the issues.

 

Yes, and I meant as is clear in the context of the thread, that deception is only one element of an A. There are others. In saying it is THE issue, this, as I understand grammar, means the only one.

 

But I take your point that an open M requires no deciet. It is entirely different, with the benefits and difficulties on another level.

 

AnnaMaria seemed to want to say that As are wrong because of the deceit. While I agree that deceit is often (though not always) wrong, As have other elements which can be good. So they are a mish-mash.

 

Does that clarify, or have I missed by a mile?

[FelicityShot]

I have been following this interesting thread started by FS, but have not had time to really reply properly. So I don't T/J I am thinking of starting a thread on addiction('substance versus relationships) as it is something that is mentioned a lot . I also agree with SreveS,I really like the intelligent discourse that is happening from everyone:)

 

it

 

Would like to see this thread!

[Kitsune77]

I'm compiling it as we speak:) and again, thanks for posting here. It does take a certain courage to emerge from" lurkedom" .

And as I think I have mentioned, your thoughts and views have helped me a lot, and you are right, it's not ALL about deception.

[woinlove]

Yes, and I meant as is clear in the context of the thread, that deception is only one element of an A. There are others. In saying it is THE issue, this, as I understand grammar, means the only one.

 

But I take your point that an open M requires no deciet. It is entirely different, with the benefits and difficulties on another level.

 

AnnaMaria seemed to want to say that As are wrong because of the deceit. While I agree that deceit is often (though not always) wrong, As have other elements which can be good. So they are a mish-mash.

 

Does that clarify, or have I missed by a mile?

 

I think the previous poster got the comparison to an open M correct by saying the difference is in the deceit. In an open M, one can have emotional and/or physical Rs outside the M, but without the deceit. So "entirely different" comes down to the deceit versus honesty and openness, right?

 

I think what is an issue depends on the people involved. Deception would be THE issue for me, as I am in an open M.

 

I don't understand you saying deceit is not always wrong, presumably in the context of an affair. When do you think it is not wrong to make your spouse believe they are in a monogamous M with a faithful partner when that is untrue?

[xxoo]

I am not sure about bending in my M. There are compromises in a R. I have never been 'wet' and unable to stick up for myself. But one thing I have done a lot is look at things from the point of view of others, and I can see that I lost myself as the central point of my own life as a result. Perhaps why my A had a 'seize the day for me' component.

 

Thanks for these simple but thoughtful Qs. It is helpful to think about them

 

I'm glad you are receiving my questions in the tone they are intended

 

There are compromises, but I feel it is important to also have "dealbreakers" on which you will not bend. Otherwise known as "boundaries".

 

It seems to me that OW/OM here sometimes accept things that would be dealbreakers for them in a different type of relationship. For example--their AP having sex with another person sometimes (the spouse). More hurtful behavior is accepted because of the "situation". And I wonder why that is.

 

This is part of the reason I am so bothered by the phrase "the good outweighs the bad". If the bad includes a dealbreaker, it shouldn't matter how good all the rest is. From a general example (not an OW example), I don't care how great this guy makes you feel if he treats your teenage daughter like crap. That's a dealbreaker. But still, women will stay because.....well, that's what I'm trying to figure out

 

Now I'm just rambling....any thoughts on dealbreakers?

[FelicityShot]

I'm glad you are receiving my questions in the tone they are intended

 

There are compromises, but I feel it is important to also have "dealbreakers" on which you will not bend. Otherwise known as "boundaries".

 

It seems to me that OW/OM here sometimes accept things that would be dealbreakers for them in a different type of relationship. For example--their AP having sex with another person sometimes (the spouse). More hurtful behavior is accepted because of the "situation". And I wonder why that is.

 

This is part of the reason I am so bothered by the phrase "the good outweighs the bad". If the bad includes a dealbreaker, it shouldn't matter how good all the rest is. From a general example (not an OW example), I don't care how great this guy makes you feel if he treats your teenage daughter like crap. That's a dealbreaker. But still, women will stay because.....well, that's what I'm trying to figure out

 

Now I'm just rambling....any thoughts on dealbreakers?

 

Well, I guess xAP working on his M was a dealbreaker for me as far as the PA went! This involved resuming sex with his W.

 

I think in a M dealbreakers get relaxed - the longer you know someone, the more likely you are to forgive them.

 

In my M, there were 3 dealbreakers over 2 years. Cumulatively they killed it for me, but I was not strong enough to just get out. I was confused.

 

These dealbreakers were also enhanced examples of continuous smaller problems, allowing me to see the faults in the M more fully. If they had been isolated without these added and similar problems, they may not have been breakers.

 

Even dealbreakers have a context.