Affairs are outside the box

[thomasb]

Most people are able to feel alive without deception and lies. FelicityShot, if you now feel alive and you are not in an A and don't plan to have another one, you know it is possible to feel alive without that kind of deception.

 

You seem to think going through the deception was the route to learning for you. But, it seems to me one still needs to learn how to feel alive, feel fulfilled and happy without deception, and that is accomplished in practice. People who start on figuring out what they need in order to be happy and fulfilled without bringing the deception of an A into their lives, are already on the right track and further ahead than someone who takes a detour of a secret A. People can recover from a setback or detour off a constructive path, but that doesn't mean the setback or detour was positive.

 

I still don't see why you think -- if you do -- that there is a positive associated with the deception of an A. There can be positives in spite of the negative of deception, but I don't see any positive because of it.

 

 

A person can never really be happy and at peace until they learn to find these qualities within themselves instead of looking for external validation. Nobody can make me happy until I learned to like myself. And that comes from living an honest, decent life with integrity and free of deceit.

[FelicityShot]

I agree! The hurt isn't the love....that is a byproduct of other human issues.

 

Before my A I was very interested in the question of what love is. I held the view that love in an adult R should never be unconditional. There must be respect etc.

 

However, I now think that it is this mindset which leads to pain. Other people's behaviour under this way of thinking can lead you to feel mistrustful, hurt, disresected. It can make you feel you have to banish your love.

 

Now I think that some people which we love may be hurt inside, they may behave badly as a result. You may have to distance yourself from them, temporarily or even permanently, especially where abuse is concerned.

 

However, the love itself is unconditional. Accepting this, and accepting your own shadow side as well as that of others, makes the pain different. It becomes more compassionate for self and others.

[Kitsune77]

I have felt much more" addicted" to single men, when I have been single, than I ever felt with MM. That feeling is common in the beginning of love affairs, and not specifically just married affairs.And speaking as someone that worked as a therapist for many years, treating all affairs as addiction or fog, is the height of counselor stupidity. People are all individuals, there love is unique to them, and should be treated as such.

 

I specialized in drug addiction therapy, and to liken an affair to a drug addiction is ignorance. So in 20 years, I have counceled hundred of drug addicts,( and been one myself) and many people in affairs, and I can answer, they are not the same. One is expansive and reaching for life, the other is reductionist, and hoping for death.

An affair is nothing like heroin addiction.and the people who make these studies, have obviously never experienced both.

 

But there is a reason that therapists treat affairs as addictions. They've been trained on the brain chemistry of limerence and feeling "in love" and its very similar, if not identical to, the brain under the influence of heroin.

 

I'm sure it doesn't feel good to hear that someone likened a person to a drug, but its not personal about that person, its about the chemicals released in the brain as a result of the person.

 

I think the therapist knew what they were talking about as they have likely seen it hundreds of times. I'm thinking not many here have had hundreds of affairs in their lifetime.

[Kitsune77]

I am very glad you have "come among us" you are have gained what a lot of us here have, no matter what side of the fence, which is wisdom through the pain. And unless compassion comes from this...it seems like a hollow thing.

 

Thank you for posting here , it's not easy to be honest here, especially after lurking for a while. Anyway, I just wanted to say, that you have personally helped me very much. XXX thank you.

 

Before my A I was very interested in the question of what love is. I held the view that love in an adult R should never be unconditional. There must be respect etc.

 

However, I now think that it is this mindset which leads to pain. Other people's behaviour under this way of thinking can lead you to feel mistrustful, hurt, disresected. It can make you feel you have to banish your love.

 

Now I think that some people which we love may be hurt inside, they may behave badly as a result. You may have to distance yourself from them, temporarily or even permanently, especially where abuse is concerned.

 

However, the love itself is unconditional. Accepting this, and accepting your own shadow side as well as that of others, makes the pain different. It becomes more compassionate for self and others.

[Kitsune77]

I am very glad you have "come among us" you are have gained what a lot of us here have, no matter what side of the fence, which is wisdom through the pain. And unless compassion comes from this...it seems like a hollow thing.

 

Thank you for posting here , it's not easy to be honest here, especially after lurking for a while. Anyway, I just wanted to say, that you have personally helped me very much. XXX thank you.

 

Before my A I was very interested in the question of what love is. I held the view that love in an adult R should never be unconditional. There must be respect etc.

 

However, I now think that it is this mindset which leads to pain. Other people's behaviour under this way of thinking can lead you to feel mistrustful, hurt, disresected. It can make you feel you have to banish your love.

 

Now I think that some people which we love may be hurt inside, they may behave badly as a result. You may have to distance yourself from them, temporarily or even permanently, especially where abuse is concerned.

 

However, the love itself is unconditional. Accepting this, and accepting your own shadow side as well as that of others, makes the pain different. It becomes more compassionate for self and others.

[FelicityShot]

I have felt much more" addicted" to single men, when I have been single, than I ever felt with MM. That feeling is common in the beginning of love affairs, and not specifically just married affairs.And speaking as someone that worked as a therapist for many years, treating all affairs as addiction or fog, is the height of counselor stupidity. People are all individuals, there love is unique to them, and should be treated as such.

 

I specialized in drug addiction therapy, and to liken an affair to a drug addiction is ignorance. So in 20 years, I have counceled hundred of drug addicts,( and been one myself) and many people in affairs, and I can answer, they are not the same. One is expansive and reaching for life, the other is reductionist, and hoping for death.

An affair is nothing like heroin addiction.and the people who make these studies, have obviously never experienced both.

 

I really liked bolded comment. Your work sounds interesting.

 

I have enjoyed reading your posts too, as they are not filled with the bitterness or self-loathing that I find difficult to read as some stories progress.

[Kitsune77]

I am very glad you have "come among us" you are have gained what a lot of us here have, no matter what side of the fence, which is wisdom through the pain. And unless compassion comes from this...it seems like a hollow thing.

 

Thank you for posting here , it's not easy to be honest here, especially after lurking for a while. Anyway, I just wanted to say, that you have personally helped me very much. XXX thank you.

 

Before my A I was very interested in the question of what love is. I held the view that love in an adult R should never be unconditional. There must be respect etc.

 

However, I now think that it is this mindset which leads to pain. Other people's behaviour under this way of thinking can lead you to feel mistrustful, hurt, disresected. It can make you feel you have to banish your love.

 

Now I think that some people which we love may be hurt inside, they may behave badly as a result. You may have to distance yourself from them, temporarily or even permanently, especially where abuse is concerned.

 

However, the love itself is unconditional. Accepting this, and accepting your own shadow side as well as that of others, makes the pain different. It becomes more compassionate for self and others.

[woinlove]

 

I specialized in drug addiction therapy, and to liken an affair to a drug addiction is ignorance. So in 20 years, I have counceled hundred of drug addicts,( and been one myself) and many people in affairs, and I can answer, they are not the same. One is expansive and reaching for life, the other is reductionist, and hoping for death.

An affair is nothing like heroin addiction.and the people who make these studies, have obviously never experienced both.

 

I don't know about analogies between heroin addiction and affairs, but many A are not expansive and reaching for life, as stories on LS make clear. Often they are a symptom of avoidance and not dealing with problems directly. Some are looking externally to meet needs which are best met internally.

 

On LS one sees many stories of real pain, they say they want out, but they continue in the A. There are some common elements to be found in any behavior that one wishes to stop but can't or won't, even as it continues to bring great pain. Maybe associated with addiction, low self-esteem, fear, some combination.

[xxoo]

Before my A I was very interested in the question of what love is. I held the view that love in an adult R should never be unconditional. There must be respect etc.

 

However, I now think that it is this mindset which leads to pain. Other people's behaviour under this way of thinking can lead you to feel mistrustful, hurt, disresected. It can make you feel you have to banish your love.

 

Now I think that some people which we love may be hurt inside, they may behave badly as a result. You may have to distance yourself from them, temporarily or even permanently, especially where abuse is concerned.However, the love itself is unconditional. Accepting this, and accepting your own shadow side as well as that of others, makes the pain different. It becomes more compassionate for self and others.

 

In the former, you stay despite poor behavior, and love dies.

 

In the latter, you walk away from poor behavior, but love remains.

 

I agree that the latter is the healthier approach. Do these two models describe your marriage and affair?

 

The question I have is--what would have happened if the affair partner had not abandoned you while love was still strong? If he had stayed with you, and demonstrated poor behavior for 20 years? If you had stayed despite poor treatment, love would have died just the same. The difference is that HE left while love was still strong.

 

Yes, it is sometimes necessary to love AND walk away because the treatment is poor. I think that is the essence of encouragement that many posters are trying to share here on the OW board.

[woinlove]

I really liked bolded comment. Your work sounds interesting.

 

I have enjoyed reading your posts too, as they are not filled with the bitterness or self-loathing that I find difficult to read as some stories progress.

 

The bolded comment reinforces what you have been saying about an A being good and positive, but, like your own statement, doesn't provide the arguments to back up that claim. In order to really learn, one needs to move beyond feel-good statements, and look at things critically.

 

Alternatives to an A for a WS might include, ending the M and then opening oneself up to new romantic attachments, or being honest with one's spouse about one's feelings, needs, desires, plans, etc., and risk the spouse ending the M, or focussing on oneself and the M and figuring out if one can be happy in an open and honest way. For the AP, one alternative might be telling the MM/MW that one doesn't want to be involved in a secret R, but if they decide to divorce and become available, one may be interested. These aren't necessarily the only alternatives.

[xxoo]

I have noticed a common tendency on this board (LS--not just the OW board) to stay in relationships until the love is dead dead dead. "The good outweighs the bad" is a common reason to stay.

 

This seems unwise to me.

[woinlove]

I have noticed a common tendency on this board (LS--not just the OW board) to stay in relationships until the love is dead dead dead. "The good outweighs the bad" is a common reason to stay.

 

This seems unwise to me.

 

I agree. Also, after one has disengaged and has more perspective, sometimes the person sees that the good was not actually outweighing the bad. Sometimes one lets hope and wishes stand in for good reality, while ignoring some of the bad reality.

[eleanor01]

It's been a day or two since I checked in here--this thread has gotten interesting!

 

It seems that affairs run the gamut from being pretty much utilitarian to being a mess of emotions and deception.

 

Kitsune--as a counselor, have you noticed whether or not affairs generally fall into particular categories? My exBF seemed to love the excitement of the deceit as much as anything else. And it does appear that he was addicted to risky behavior (in addition to being an alcoholic)--pretty much out of control all the way around.

 

My current situation is really weird, but my MM is isn't an addict--he's on a very even keel, as am I. And so far so good on the tenor of our relationship.

 

And yes, I realize that I am saying here that when my exBF fooled around on me, it was because he was a jerk. But, when I fool around with a MM, neither of us is a jerk. ;-)

 

Anyway, I'd be interested to know if anybody(Kitsune?) knows--through hard data (i.e., studies published in peer-reviewed journals) or through their experience--if affairs fall into predictable "types."

 

All Best,

Ellie

[FelicityShot]

In the former, you stay despite poor behavior, and love dies.

 

In the latter, you walk away from poor behavior, but love remains.

 

I agree that the latter is the healthier approach. Do these two models describe your marriage and affair?

 

The question I have is--what would have happened if the affair partner had not abandoned you while love was still strong? If he had stayed with you, and demonstrated poor behavior for 20 years? If you had stayed despite poor treatment, love would have died just the same. The difference is that HE left while love was still strong.

 

Yes, it is sometimes necessary to love AND walk away because the treatment is poor. I think that is the essence of encouragement that many posters are trying to share here on the OW board.

 

Perhaps the former does describe my M. I also own deficiences in dealing with poor behaviour - another story.

 

For some reason, I don't think xAP would have treated me badly for 20 years. I trust him in that way. What we had was good (apart from the difficult circumstances). It was the ability to communicate and understand one another at a deep level. My love for him was incredibly strong - I think he would have blossomed and remained happy, as would I have.

 

We both had a gut feeling about this.

 

With xH, I M because I thought I could spend my life with him. It would be OK. And if he had been more respectful, this would have happened.

 

With xAP, I wanted to spend my life with him, even knowing he had a difficult shadow side.

 

There was no question of us remaining in an A for 20 years. He understood this better than I did. It was all or nothing. As such things should be.

[FelicityShot]

The bolded comment reinforces what you have been saying about an A being good and positive, but, like your own statement, doesn't provide the arguments to back up that claim. In order to really learn, one needs to move beyond feel-good statements, and look at things critically.

 

Alternatives to an A for a WS might include, ending the M and then opening oneself up to new romantic attachments, or being honest with one's spouse about one's feelings, needs, desires, plans, etc., and risk the spouse ending the M, or focussing on oneself and the M and figuring out if one can be happy in an open and honest way. For the AP, one alternative might be telling the MM/MW that one doesn't want to be involved in a secret R, but if they decide to divorce and become available, one may be interested. These aren't necessarily the only alternatives.

 

I think Kitsune backs up her argument - it is based on her own experience and that of her professional experience.

 

I think addiction can be a useful metaphor when thinking about needy love. Especially if the benefits are repeatedly short-lived and the 'hangovers' unpleasant. This describes my M better than it describes my A.

 

I am not disputing there are alternatives to the A route. I am not sure they are all 'better'. Or As 'worse'.

 

The strengths and weaknesses of different approaches are interesting and worth looking at. I would agree that a perpetuated state of deception and confusion does no-one any favours. But it will happen that people fall in love before they are ready to leave their M. Perhaps being thrown into a state of confusion is something a person might actually need for their next developmental step?

[woinlove]

I think Kitsune backs up her argument - it is based on her own experience and that of her professional experience.

 

I think addiction can be a useful metaphor when thinking about needy love. Especially if the benefits are repeatedly short-lived and the 'hangovers' unpleasant. This describes my M better than it describes my A.

 

I am not disputing there are alternatives to the A route. I am not sure they are all 'better'. Or As 'worse'.

 

The strengths and weaknesses of different approaches are interesting and worth looking at. I would agree that a perpetuated state of deception and confusion does no-one any favours. But it will happen that people fall in love before they are ready to leave their M. Perhaps being thrown into a state of confusion is something a person might actually need for their next developmental step?

 

Kitsune didn't give us an argument as to why affairs are life-affirming - just the statement that they are. We've already heard that counsellors can apply their own perception onto others, so it isn't enough, if one wants to understand, to say affairs are life-affirming for those she treats.

 

Re bolded: Sometimes things do happen - people die unexpectedly or whatever - but most affairs are actually a choice. I think one learns more by acknowledging that choice and the decisions made. I've never regretted not deceiving those who I love and share my life with and I see a lot of benefits from continually making that choice.

 

Still trying to understand others who might feel something similar from choosing deception instead - but perhaps the answer is that no one really thinks deception is a better path. I suppose if one chose deception, went through confusion, and ended up in a good state it might be difficult to imagine that another path could have been better. However, the fact that most say they would not chose the same path again seems to imply that there are better paths.

[SteveS]

Must say I'm enjoying this thread; its rare to see these almost theoretical debates about infidelity as its such conversations, like the affairs themselves, are filled with heightened emotions and (on a board like this) personal experience. Lets face it - if we were all happy campers we wouldn't be on here

 

The moral relativism is an interesting point - I know a couple in an open marriage and the W has many close M friends ranging from the platonic to the physical which the husband is aware about so there is no deceit. The only real difference between that situation and an affair is the aspect of deceit. The question is can said deceit ever be justified..or at least understood. God I used to see the world in black and white yet the reality is its filled with shades of grey.

 

If you distill it down its simply a case of two people who for a moment connect on some sort of level - emotionally, physically. Its not sustainable in the long term but for that moment a unfulfilled requirement is met. And there can be benefits. Sometimes its only the unfamiliar extreme situation that forces you to stop and thing; question who you are and what you want.

 

"The strengths and weaknesses of different approaches are interesting and worth looking at. I would agree that a perpetuated state of deception and confusion does no-one any favours. But it will happen that people fall in love before they are ready to leave their M. Perhaps being thrown into a state of confusion is something a person might actually need for their next developmental step?"

 

I've learnt more about myself these last 3 years...and especially four month than I ever did before. I understand the world - myself, my relationships, my wants, my desires, and even my xMW so much better now and if truth be told I have no regrets.

[MissBee]

Most people are able to feel alive without deception and lies. FelicityShot, if you now feel alive and you are not in an A and don't plan to have another one, you know it is possible to feel alive without that kind of deception.

 

You seem to think going through the deception was the route to learning for you. But, it seems to me one still needs to learn how to feel alive, feel fulfilled and happy without deception, and that is accomplished in practice. People who start on figuring out what they need in order to be happy and fulfilled without bringing the deception of an A into their lives, are already on the right track and further ahead than someone who takes a detour of a secret A. People can recover from a setback or detour off a constructive path, but that doesn't mean the setback or detour was positive.

 

I still don't see why you think -- if you do -- that there is a positive associated with the deception of an A. There can be positives in spite of the negative of deception, but I don't see any positive because of it.

 

I agree particularly with the bolded.

 

I believe wholeheartedly that not-so-good, even negative experiences can bring about change and positivity and transformation, but I believe they act as conduits (if you so choose) versus being confused that that experience itself or setup was an inherently good one.

 

Example: Oprah went through lots of hardship growing up, being molested was one and no doubt many of her struggles shaped her and gave her the drive to be who we know as Oprah. However, to say, "well seee being sexually abused is a GREAT THING! It was a positive experience!" is a bit much. That negativity acted as a conduit and played a role in shaping her life but nobody would turn around and call the abuse itself a wonderful thing.

 

Likewise, I do believe As, or ANY relationship can teach you a lot and shape you and help you to grow and be a positive experience for you or act as a change agent....but I tread carefully about declaring that As are good in light of that possibility. I guess I have a problem understanding those who seek to shine As, as a category, in a positive light versus singling out their own experience or what they learned that was good. For example, I do believe some positive stuff came out of my A and it was NOWHERE as dramatic with ddays, marriages, work situations being involved, pregnancies, being thrown under the bus and all that like others' I've heard.....yet I can take the good and bad from MY situation but recognize still that As as a rule aren't positive. I don't feel any need to use what positivity I experienced as an apologetic for As. Sooo that's what I don't get...the motivation for that type of feeling.

[FelicityShot]

Likewise, I do believe As, or ANY relationship can teach you a lot and shape you and help you to grow and be a positive experience for you or act as a change agent....but I tread carefully about declaring that As are good in light of that possibility. I guess I have a problem understanding those who seek to shine As, as a category, in a positive light versus singling out their own experience or what they learned that was good. For example, I do believe some positive stuff came out of my A and it was NOWHERE as dramatic with ddays, marriages, work situations being involved, pregnancies, being thrown under the bus and all that like others' I've heard.....yet I can take the good and bad from MY situation but recognize still that As as a rule aren't positive. I don't feel any need to use what positivity I experienced as an apologetic for As. Sooo that's what I don't get...the motivation for that type of feeling.

 

I don't think As are good because of positive outcomes, but I think they happen. A lot. They are understandable in terms of good and bad elements, in synthesis. That is during the A. Any positive personal transformations experienced as a result of the A are, IMO, a sign that the A was in some way necessary.

[alexandria35]

I

It's a crippling fear, and makes trust v difficult.

 

In life, we can be prone to repeating experiences until we eventually heal. I didn't do this. I went for 18 years of my adult life without replaying this cycle set up in childhood.

 

But with xAP, I felt and decided the quality of the love experience was worth the risk, which I was aware of. I wasn't aware how painful it was going to be - it forced me to deal with issue in a complete way.

 

I could not get through the pain without having what I have come to think of as a spiritual awakening. This involves a profound sense of inner peace, less attachment to people and material possessions, a sense of unity and oneness with the universe, and far greater equanimity in general.

 

My focus has switched from pleasure/pain and other polarities towards an integrated sense of self. This is not to say things don't affect me or cause me to feel no negative emotions - this is not nirvana. But it is a step in the right direction.

 

I now see my 'job' in the universe as to be myself as fully as I can. Instead of weaving a tentative path between what people expect of me and my fears about what may lie ahead.

 

This is why I don't think it will rear its head again. I may be left by a future partner. But the fear of that will not govern me. It has lost its hold.

 

You don't have to explain the fear of abandonment to me Felicity because I have it. In spades. And for good reason, as I got passed around a lot as a child. I have struggled with this fear my whole adult life and you are not convincing me that the way out is to go get myself abandoned because I have already done that many times over.That just doesn't make sense. If I had a fear of being mugged should I go get myself mugged? I'm not being daft. I do believe that people can take a bad situation and use it to better themselves but I don't think that by doing so this actually makes the bad situation a good event.

 

If you met me now you would never guess that I have an intense fear of abandonment. I am strong, happy and at peace. I feel so good that even I can sometimes believe that this fear is no longer a problem for me. But heres the thing...I'm single. There is no threat of abandonment looming over me so I have no reason to be fearful of it, but I know better than to think that this problem has just magically disappeared. It's why I'm choosing to be single and working hard on my problems right now. Wish I had done this years ago as I think it's a far better approach than choosing bad behaviour.

[xxoo]

For some reason, I don't think xAP would have treated me badly for 20 years. I trust him in that way. What we had was good (apart from the difficult circumstances). It was the ability to communicate and understand one another at a deep level. My love for him was incredibly strong - I think he would have blossomed and remained happy, as would I have.

 

Most people would think it inconcievable that the person they deeply love, desire to marry or have a child with, would one day treat them badly. That is part of the first stage of love, seeing the best and minimizing the bad. Attributing bad to circumstances rather than choices.

 

I've been with my partner 20 years. With vigilance, we've thrived. Without vigilance, we'd be toast by now.

[MissBee]

I don't think As are good because of positive outcomes, but I think they happen. A lot. They are understandable in terms of good and bad elements, in synthesis. That is during the A. Any positive personal transformations experienced as a result of the A are, IMO, a sign that the A was in some way necessary.

 

ANY experience, even negative ones (your family being murdered that transforms you, losing a child, having a near death experience, being sexually abused, homelessness etc) may all act as conduits or were "necessary" for your personal growth; however, most would not consider that thing in itself a good thing. The growth was a byproduct of a not-so-good thing.

 

What is the take home point you're making? That As, like any other experience can help one to grow?

[FelicityShot]

I

 

You don't have to explain the fear of abandonment to me Felicity because I have it. In spades. And for good reason, as I got passed around a lot as a child. I have struggled with this fear my whole adult life and you are not convincing me that the way out is to go get myself abandoned because I have already done that many times over.That just doesn't make sense. If I had a fear of being mugged should I go get myself mugged? I'm not being daft. I do believe that people can take a bad situation and use it to better themselves but I don't think that by doing so this actually makes the bad situation a good event.

 

If you met me now you would never guess that I have an intense fear of abandonment. I am strong, happy and at peace. I feel so good that even I can sometimes believe that this fear is no longer a problem for me. But heres the thing...I'm single. There is no threat of abandonment looming over me so I have no reason to be fearful of it, but I know better than to think that this problem has just magically disappeared. It's why I'm choosing to be single and working hard on my problems right now. Wish I had done this years ago as I think it's a far better approach than choosing bad behaviour.

 

I feel for you. We both know the same demon...

 

For me the trick was in the end to realise that demon was in me - it was in fact my fear. It was not in the behaviour of others. People stay or go, we can choose someone unsuitable who will stay, someone suitable who will go, or the one who is suitable and stays. We need to be aware of this, allow for possible abandonment without fearing it. You never know someone completely.

 

I think being alone and happy in yourself is also key to integrating the fear. If you know you can be happy alone, why would you fear someone leaving if they felt it was time to move on?

 

Perhaps my case is different from yours, as I did not process any pain in my childhood abandonments. I forgave and suppressed. So the abandonment by my xAP was the first time I allowed myself that pain and to work through it to the other side.

 

I had not fully invested in the parents who abandoned me either. I knew not to. In the case of my A, I invested fully in trusting my feelings of love. Did you do that in your adult Rs?

[woinlove]

I don't think As are good because of positive outcomes, but I think they happen. A lot. They are understandable in terms of good and bad elements, in synthesis. That is during the A. Any positive personal transformations experienced as a result of the A are, IMO, a sign that the A was in some way necessary.

 

A lot of control given up in your statements: "they happen", "in some way necessary". Laws can be enforced on food safety, saving many lives, or they can not be enforced due to laziness, greed, neglect and people die. One can say, oh, it's necessary for people to die in order to remind others not to be lazy, greedy, neglectful. Even the people whose laziness or greed caused the deaths can say this. Some people don't like to take responsibility for their actions and decisions. However, I find life is most fulfilling if one embraces it in its entirety and accepts the control we do have. Sometimes people don't want to acknowledge that control because they don't fully accept their own decisions.

[FelicityShot]

ANY experience, even negative ones (your family being murdered that transforms you, losing a child, having a near death experience, being sexually abused, homelessness etc) may all act as conduits or were "necessary" for your personal growth; however, most would not consider that thing in itself a good thing. The growth was a byproduct of a not-so-good thing.

 

What is the take home point you're making? That As, like any other experience can help one to grow?

 

Some elements of my A were extremely good. Which is quite unlike the negative experiences you list. So I'm not quite sure how to answer you. I didn't just benefit from the transformation, but also from the experience itself.