alexandria35 Posted October 8, 2011 Posted October 8, 2011 The Blessed Mary may have a bone or two to pick with you over that one... albeit the pain came much later. Really? That's the best you can do? You seriously think this little comeback is a clever intelligent argument? Says who?? Love hurts. And often it destroys the ego, precious dreams and goals, etc. Destruction is part of the cycle of life. "Healthy" doesn't mean it's not going to hurt. You pay the price either way for loving someone. I agree it's a worthy goal to try not to hurt anybody, no matter what you do (or who you love). But let's be honest here. Life is messy, and love hurts. Well alrighty then! I guess you would have no problem watching your children partake in hurtful self destructive relationships. Guess if your daughter ever came to you broken and destroyed because she loved a man who is not good for her, instead of helping her see that love isn't supposed to be that way, you woud just say "oh well, love is supposed to hurt..so suck it up sweetheart".
OpenBook Posted October 8, 2011 Posted October 8, 2011 Really? That's the best you can do? You seriously think this little comeback is a clever intelligent argument? No, it was a heartfelt post - I meant every word of it and I stand by it. But thanks for that condescending insult. Well alrighty then! I guess you would have no problem watching your children partake in hurtful self destructive relationships. Guess if your daughter ever came to you broken and destroyed because she loved a man who is not good for her, instead of helping her see that love isn't supposed to be that way, you woud just say "oh well, love is supposed to hurt..so suck it up sweetheart". You are, of course, free to stretch and twist and assume anything you want out of what I post. I have no control over that. I only have control over how I conduct my own life... and who I answer to... and where & what I post on here. Thanks for the feedback on my post anyway.
Author FelicityShot Posted October 8, 2011 Author Posted October 8, 2011 The Blessed Mary may have a bone or two to pick with you over that one... albeit the pain came much later. Says who?? Love hurts. And often it destroys the ego, precious dreams and goals, etc. Destruction is part of the cycle of life. "Healthy" doesn't mean it's not going to hurt. You pay the price either way for loving someone. I agree it's a worthy goal to try not to hurt anybody, no matter what you do (or who you love). But let's be honest here. Life is messy, and love hurts. I was so glad to read this post. It really does reflect how I feel about this, a nd adds a depth to what I wanted to say. I experienced this destruction of ego and life goals at the hands of love. It was incredibly painful, but I honour the experience instead of denigrating it with useless guilt. Yes, love does hurt. It is overwhelming and tranformational. I also agree with posters like heartinlove who say that the addiction/chemicals argument is ridiculous and reductive. Being betrayed is awful, and I am not trying to suggest otherwise. But it is part of many people's lives. Part of the tapestry. I too have been betrayed, and I told my partner how his dishonesty made me feel. I didn't and still don't agree with the line that all As are bad.
Author FelicityShot Posted October 8, 2011 Author Posted October 8, 2011 And personally, I take exception as to how often the BS is blamed for the end of the affair, the miserable, sexless marriage, and the MM being FORCED to reconcile his unhappy marriage and end the affair. Poor, poor baby and his mean, vile wife. HE lies to me and he lies to you too! I never minimized my H's feelings for his AP. I told him to go get her and told our children we would amicably divorce and to treat her with respect. I WAS FURIOUS he lied to me; he didn't have to. I do not want a man who does not want me --not for money, security or status quo, the kids. Most fBS that I know IRL felt the same. I prepared for a future without him. When it appeared to be the very LAST thing he wanted, I started to scratch my head. Go, without acrimony, be happy with your soul mate, I will find mine. He grew so depressed, almost suicidal, often angry and blaming ME! for what? Forcing the end of his secret and compartmentalized life? Can't have both women? Both lifestyles? Well, okay then....you don't want to live an authentic life? Don't you love her? Isn't this what almost two years of my life have been about? You being unable to choose? I am giving you permission to choose her, and you still don't want it? Why? And why does that make you even ANGRIER with me? I think you dealt with your experience with exceptional dignity. Sometimes an A is a wake up call to the WS about what they value - and sometimes that is the M, no doubt.
MissBee Posted October 8, 2011 Posted October 8, 2011 The comparisons you make are ridiculous and I find it hard to believe that you can't tell the difference between healthy and unhealthy love. Bonds that are good and bonds that are destructive. I've never been an OW but I've experience intense mind boggling "love" that was just plain destructive to me and others. I guess it was an addiction, I hadn't thought of that before, I more or less thought I was bordering on mentally ill. The relationship was destructive, I hurt myself, the man I was so madly in love with hurt, my family hurt, my kids hurt and worse everyone lost a little respect for me. I was ashamed and bewildered as to why this one relationship had such an intense hold on me. Of course at the time I thought it was "true soulmate love" and that we were somehow meant to be since the universe had brought us together...bleech! Affairs are usually painful to everyone involved. The affair partners are in pain, the betrayed are in intense pain, the children hurt, extended family and close friends hurt. Now please tell me who gets hurt when a husband and wife are bonded to each other? Who feels immense pain over a mother bonding with her newborn baby? There is a huge difference between these types of love. Healthy love doesn't hurt people and it's not destructive. I have shared that experience as well and it wasn't in an A. It was a regular relationship that involved "addicted love".....I too thought we were soulmates and all the craziness was because of the hard path that "twin souls" have to traverse.... *cue car crash noise* Then I realized that it was no such thing and it was an unhealthy attachment that was coupled with an intensity I identified as love. There was probably more love in my affair than in this relationship. I think LOTS of relationships that are non-As, as well as those that are As, feature this intense, addicted love and I agree with NoIDidn't when she says that the therapist probably "diagnosed" it was such not solely because he/she is hating on affairs or biased against them but because of other patterns of behavior and so forth that the MM shared that may align it more towards that than love. Rightfully, if one is not in the sessions and isn't viewing what the therapist is viewing and hearing and using one's experience of such situations, then one can't really accuse them of dismissing the love aspect.
MissBee Posted October 8, 2011 Posted October 8, 2011 The Blessed Mary may have a bone or two to pick with you over that one... albeit the pain came much later. Says who?? Love hurts. And often it destroys the ego, precious dreams and goals, etc. Destruction is part of the cycle of life. "Healthy" doesn't mean it's not going to hurt. You pay the price either way for loving someone. I agree it's a worthy goal to try not to hurt anybody, no matter what you do (or who you love). But let's be honest here. Life is messy, and love hurts. Ahhh.... I have had that mindset before, before I realized it wasn't true and everyone who is currently in a hot mess of a relationship mollifies themselves by believing that, but ALL the examples of the love I want and relationships I want for myself do not encompass "Love hurts" as a mantra. I've seen relationships firsthand (my brother and his gf and my aunt and uncle) in which that simply is not true.I want what those people have. It's not about fairy tales and never experiencing hurt. We all will hurt each other but is it inadvertent, is it deliberate, is the very situation fraught with drama by its nature, are you in a "love scenario" that seems to lean more to the side of hurt than not? That's the point. I saw a HUGE shift in my happiness and the relationships I gravitated towards and what I would and would not allow once I stopped buying into the love is pain/hurt mantra.
xxoo Posted October 8, 2011 Posted October 8, 2011 (edited) Says who?? Love hurts. And often it destroys the ego, precious dreams and goals, etc. Destruction is part of the cycle of life. "Healthy" doesn't mean it's not going to hurt. You pay the price either way for loving someone. I agree it's a worthy goal to try not to hurt anybody, no matter what you do (or who you love). But let's be honest here. Life is messy, and love hurts. I experienced this destruction of ego and life goals at the hands of love. It was incredibly painful, but I honour the experience instead of denigrating it with useless guilt. Yes, love does hurt. It is overwhelming and tranformational. . Could either of you explain more about this belief that love hurts? This has not been my experience, and I truly don't understand. Love supports and builds each other up. Love does not tear each other down. It's not about fairy tales and never experiencing hurt. We all will hurt each other but is it inadvertent, is it deliberate, is the very situation fraught with drama by its nature, are you in a "love scenario" that seems to lean more to the side of hurt than not? That's the point.. Yes, hurts happen, but when they are inadvertant, and then discussed openly, they often turn into "feel good" experiences. The intimacy builds, the understanding of each other grows, and the inadvertant hurts happen less and less. In that case, love HEALS the hurt caused by misunderstanding, or carelessness. The hurt is NOT love. Suffering hurt because you love someone else is, in my opinion, due to insufficient self-love. Edited October 8, 2011 by xxoo
spice4life Posted October 8, 2011 Posted October 8, 2011 What is your story felicityshot? Were you single when with your xMM? If he were to come back into your life would you take him back and accept the status quo? Sorry for asking so many questions, just trying to understand your mindset with regard to your A.
Author FelicityShot Posted October 8, 2011 Author Posted October 8, 2011 Could either of you explain more about this belief that love hurts? This has not been my experience, and I truly don't understand. Love supports and builds each other up. Love does not tear each other down. Yes, hurts happen, but when they are inadvertant, and then discussed openly, they often turn into "feel good" experiences. The intimacy builds, the understanding of each other grows, and the inadvertant hurts happen less and less. In that case, love HEALS the hurt caused by misunderstanding, or carelessness. The hurt is NOT love. Suffering hurt because you love someone else is, in my opinion, due to insufficient self-love. Love does the things you describe. It is a powerful healer. But sometimes that involves pain. I had spent my whole adult life in fear of abandonment. I probably didn't allow myself to fully fall in love until my A. And I was abandoned by my AP. I experienced fully what I had feared, and I came through it and I no longer live in this fear. I loved myself enough to go there, fall in love, take the risk, and through pain heal. That is what I am talking about.
Author FelicityShot Posted October 8, 2011 Author Posted October 8, 2011 What is your story felicityshot? Were you single when with your xMM? If he were to come back into your life would you take him back and accept the status quo? Sorry for asking so many questions, just trying to understand your mindset with regard to your A. We were both M. I do believe he is a soulmate. Nothing else could explain the way I feel about him. I didn't have any idea it was even possible to feel like that. Yes I would take him back if he were single, but not otherwise.
Author FelicityShot Posted October 8, 2011 Author Posted October 8, 2011 I am now single and he is not.
FirstNobleTruth Posted October 8, 2011 Posted October 8, 2011 Love doesn't hurt. A lot of things in life hurt, things that happen to all of us at some point or another. Loss hurts. Fear of loss hurts. Change hurts. Fear of change hurts. Desire hurts. Unfulfilled desire especially hurts. Wanting things to be other than they are, hurts. All these things can be associated with relationships. These things are especially common in clandestine relationships. (Though not necessarily always, I grant you that.) But they are not love itself. Love doesn't hurt. It heals.
xxoo Posted October 8, 2011 Posted October 8, 2011 I had spent my whole adult life in fear of abandonment. I probably didn't allow myself to fully fall in love until my A. And I was abandoned by my AP. I experienced fully what I had feared, and I came through it and I no longer live in this fear. I loved myself enough to go there, fall in love, take the risk, and through pain heal. That is what I am talking about. What you are talking about here.....love being so strong that it forces you to face and overcome your fears.....it seems like an experience more common to overcoming anxiety than love. Any desire that is strong enough can push the risk averse to face and overcome a fear. Love was the platfrom for your anxiety and your healing. But it doesn't make LOVE painful. Anxiety is painful. Abandonment is painful. LOVE is not. Also, experiencing abandonment does not always release a person from their abandonment fears as it did for you. You may have been lucky in that regard. It could have gone the other way, intensifying your fears. Finally--consider the source of abandonment fears. Overcoming yours may have generated the same fears in another
heartinlove Posted October 8, 2011 Posted October 8, 2011 I knew my comment would get some heated responses. My MM's therapist believes all affairs are addictions no exceptions. Nothing about his particular story. I know what addicted love feels like and what destructive love feels like. I have had that kind of relationship with a single person. My affair with MM did not feel like that. It was about love. We entered as friends we left the relationship with respect. Why. Because it was about love. Sometimes love happens where we don't expect it or where there is no space for it to flourish. We did our best to navigate the experience. Sorry to burst anyones belief that an affair can only be about addiction because of the pain involved. i never minimized the pain, which is why I am no longer in an affair. But I know love when I experience it, and that was love, and its hard to let go of a love like that.
MissBee Posted October 8, 2011 Posted October 8, 2011 Love doesn't hurt. A lot of things in life hurt, things that happen to all of us at some point or another. Loss hurts. Fear of loss hurts. Change hurts. Fear of change hurts. Desire hurts. Unfulfilled desire especially hurts. Wanting things to be other than they are, hurts. All these things can be associated with relationships. These things are especially common in clandestine relationships. (Though not necessarily always, I grant you that.) But they are not love itself. Love doesn't hurt. It heals. Beautifully said I absolutely agree!
MissBee Posted October 8, 2011 Posted October 8, 2011 I knew my comment would get some heated responses. My MM's therapist believes all affairs are addictions no exceptions. Nothing about his particular story. I know what addicted love feels like and what destructive love feels like. I have had that kind of relationship with a single person. My affair with MM did not feel like that. It was about love. We entered as friends we left the relationship with respect. Why. Because it was about love. Sometimes love happens where we don't expect it or where there is no space for it to flourish. We did our best to navigate the experience. Sorry to burst anyones belief that an affair can only be about addiction because of the pain involved. i never minimized the pain, which is why I am no longer in an affair. But I know love when I experience it, and that was love, and its hard to let go of a love like that. I totally understand that and believe that's possible...I too experienced love in an A over that which I experienced in a single relationship. Question: does your MM agree with his therapist and if not, why does he continue to see someone who is by all accounts inadequate in her treatment? I can't see the use to go to a therapist you feel isn't actually helping you and isn't addressing whatever you think your problems are.
MissBee Posted October 8, 2011 Posted October 8, 2011 Could either of you explain more about this belief that love hurts? This has not been my experience, and I truly don't understand. Love supports and builds each other up. Love does not tear each other down. Yes, hurts happen, but when they are inadvertant, and then discussed openly, they often turn into "feel good" experiences. The intimacy builds, the understanding of each other grows, and the inadvertant hurts happen less and less. In that case, love HEALS the hurt caused by misunderstanding, or carelessness. The hurt is NOT love. Suffering hurt because you love someone else is, in my opinion, due to insufficient self-love. I agree! The hurt isn't the love....that is a byproduct of other human issues.
alexandria35 Posted October 9, 2011 Posted October 9, 2011 What you are talking about here.....love being so strong that it forces you to face and overcome your fears.....it seems like an experience more common to overcoming anxiety than love. Any desire that is strong enough can push the risk averse to face and overcome a fear. Love was the platfrom for your anxiety and your healing. But it doesn't make LOVE painful. Anxiety is painful. Abandonment is painful. LOVE is not. Also, experiencing abandonment does not always release a person from their abandonment fears as it did for you. You may have been lucky in that regard. It could have gone the other way, intensifying your fears. Finally--consider the source of abandonment fears. Overcoming yours may have generated the same fears in another Agreed! It is most unusual for somebody to overcome their fear of abandonment by being abandoned. People with abandonment fears usually do unconciously seek out partners that will indeed abandon them but this usually only reinforces and intensifies the fear of abandonment as the person with this issue is compelled to prove to themselves over and over again that anybody they become close to will eventually abandon them. One typically needs therapy to deal with this particular fear. Also Felicity, there is usually no fear of abandonment when there is no threat of abandonment. You may have recovered from the abandonment of your affair partner but perhaps that fear will rear its ugly head again should you become romantically attached again.
fellhard4u Posted October 9, 2011 Posted October 9, 2011 Love beats morals like paper beats stone. It's just stronger. As a former OW I can say that the A and its aftermath would not have been as painful and devastating an experience had there been an ounce of "love" involved on the part of xMM towards me. I know for a fact that my xMM did not love me. Had he loved me there would not have been the horrible treatment that I (and apparently, from what I can read here on LS, many OWs) received from him during and after the affair. There would not have been the denying me, the keeping our "relationship" a secret from everyone, the disregard for MY feelings and needs, the incongruance between his words and his actions, the dishonesty about telling me I was the love of his life and then going home to BW whom he apparently dispised and hated. Had there been any love involved, the end of the A would not have culminated in him throwing me under the bus in the most cruel way, with complete disregard of the devastation that he caused in my life. Had there been any love for me involved, xMM would have done everything to shield me from the pain, anxiety, devastation and humiliation that resulted from my involvement with him. Even my dysfunctional self is able to realize that xMM's feeling for me were anything but love.
twinsmom Posted October 9, 2011 Posted October 9, 2011 Can somewhat relate to this. Spent 3 1/2 years loving my MM, only to have him up and move all the way across the country with no word. Not even an inkling that he was going. Not even a goodbye...Boy, that was a slap in the face. That was January of 2008, and I've just finally reached closure. But I finally have! I finally realized that I have no desire to be with such a spineless excuse for a man. Hallelujah!
SidLyon Posted October 9, 2011 Posted October 9, 2011 Meaning the therapist never treated it as a choice between a life with me or a life staying with the family. ... ...so in the end this is not about choosing her versus me. Theres so much more to it. I just thought that in therapy it would have been helpful to talk about the different choices ... ...Again, this is not to me a choice of her versus me.... Quite contradictory...
Kitsune77 Posted October 9, 2011 Posted October 9, 2011 I havnt read any further than these 2 replies, but this should get interesting. I want some of what FelicityShot is having! Ellie
Kitsune77 Posted October 9, 2011 Posted October 9, 2011 I posted just yesterday that sometimes an affair is the need to feel alive. I like what you are saying. Yes, it's exactly this sort of stance that is the problem. The bias towards the status quo for kids and finances is clear. But it is not going to help anyone clear their minds in preparation for a decision to be told their feelings are not real. This makes little sense to me. I spent a lot of time feeling paralysed with guilt in the aftermath of my A, seeing xH hurt so much was the most awful thing. It will probably mean I will never have an A again. But now I have been single for some time, and recovered from the whole - well, affair - I look back and I think, I understand why I did that. And I don't hate myself, or think my feelings were fog. I am not confused or ashamed of my behaviour. There is only one thing I would have done differently, and that is left H sooner rather than later. But that is hindsight. I knew I wanted to leave H. By the time I did, I knew why. For BSs who are not aware they are in a dead M, I feel compassion. That is the blindsided worst heap of disaster. But for those who know, I don't see why an A should seem so wrong. It might make you feel bad, duped etc. But the behaviour wasn't about you. It wasn't malicious. It was someone saying 'I want to feel alive, damn it!'. And maybe it was someone learning to be alive. That's what it was for me.
Author FelicityShot Posted October 9, 2011 Author Posted October 9, 2011 Agreed! It is most unusual for somebody to overcome their fear of abandonment by being abandoned. People with abandonment fears usually do unconciously seek out partners that will indeed abandon them but this usually only reinforces and intensifies the fear of abandonment as the person with this issue is compelled to prove to themselves over and over again that anybody they become close to will eventually abandon them. One typically needs therapy to deal with this particular fear. Also Felicity, there is usually no fear of abandonment when there is no threat of abandonment. You may have recovered from the abandonment of your affair partner but perhaps that fear will rear its ugly head again should you become romantically attached again. It's a crippling fear, and makes trust v difficult. In life, we can be prone to repeating experiences until we eventually heal. I didn't do this. I went for 18 years of my adult life without replaying this cycle set up in childhood. But with xAP, I felt and decided the quality of the love experience was worth the risk, which I was aware of. I wasn't aware how painful it was going to be - it forced me to deal with issue in a complete way. I could not get through the pain without having what I have come to think of as a spiritual awakening. This involves a profound sense of inner peace, less attachment to people and material possessions, a sense of unity and oneness with the universe, and far greater equanimity in general. My focus has switched from pleasure/pain and other polarities towards an integrated sense of self. This is not to say things don't affect me or cause me to feel no negative emotions - this is not nirvana. But it is a step in the right direction. I now see my 'job' in the universe as to be myself as fully as I can. Instead of weaving a tentative path between what people expect of me and my fears about what may lie ahead. This is why I don't think it will rear its head again. I may be left by a future partner. But the fear of that will not govern me. It has lost its hold.
woinlove Posted October 9, 2011 Posted October 9, 2011 Most people are able to feel alive without deception and lies. FelicityShot, if you now feel alive and you are not in an A and don't plan to have another one, you know it is possible to feel alive without that kind of deception. You seem to think going through the deception was the route to learning for you. But, it seems to me one still needs to learn how to feel alive, feel fulfilled and happy without deception, and that is accomplished in practice. People who start on figuring out what they need in order to be happy and fulfilled without bringing the deception of an A into their lives, are already on the right track and further ahead than someone who takes a detour of a secret A. People can recover from a setback or detour off a constructive path, but that doesn't mean the setback or detour was positive. I still don't see why you think -- if you do -- that there is a positive associated with the deception of an A. There can be positives in spite of the negative of deception, but I don't see any positive because of it.
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