bluenightowl Posted October 6, 2011 Posted October 6, 2011 My sense is yes. Do you agree? Why to why not? Here why I think we are generally headed in that direction: 1) The media - TV - Internet - ads are more sexual than ever 2) Porn in a nutshell is changing men and women and the next generation 3) The decline of church, community and state - whether you like it or not - many of these institutions esp. church don't wield the same power they once did. 4) Family - more broken than ever and fewer role models for youth 5) Women and sexual freedom - less or no need for men to be their support - this is new in many societies. I'm not knocking it, just suggesting its a factor. so ie. women can now be the player like men. The pill, the values are changing. I women posting I want to be a player just like some men.. is that a good role model? 6) Online Dating - suddenly a person is an item in a shopping cart, or worse join a site for affairs you name it. Mix and suddenly you have people who more and more see sex as a fun pastime. Some others have said, those who have found an amazing partner to love, swear by their sense of being in a truly loving relationship.
oaks Posted October 6, 2011 Posted October 6, 2011 My sense is yes. Do you agree? Why to why not? I disagree, but only because we're there already and have been for some time so there's no sense of "becoming".
OnyxSnowfall Posted October 6, 2011 Posted October 6, 2011 I disagree, but only because we're there already and have been for some time so there's no sense of "becoming". This. ....
Author bluenightowl Posted October 6, 2011 Author Posted October 6, 2011 This. .... So the obvious followup is. Is this good for us or bad. good because we freed ourselves of repressive institutions that impose on human liberty or have we become addicted to the superficial, the sound bite, and the lack of meaning. I think I somewhat subscribe to the idea of a freedom to do what we ought to do, not just what we can do. i.e. freedom with discipline is the best freedom, but perhaps the hardest to maintain.
mike111 Posted October 6, 2011 Posted October 6, 2011 (edited) 2) Porn in a nutshell is changing men and women and the next generation Well.........when I was growing up, if we kids wanted to sneak a peek at some boobies, all we had was playboy. And the guy owning the store would chase us away from the book stand. I never saw a real pair of boobs till I was in my teens, let alone a vagina. Now......the kids today can see the most graphic porn ever in the history of the world, including rape and bestiality porn. there are no age limits. And i wonder what kind of effect this is having on our kid's minds? Edited October 6, 2011 by mike111 grammar
Nexus One Posted October 6, 2011 Posted October 6, 2011 There's always something like personal responsibility. Just some interesting additional interesting stuff. In Amsterdam you can go window shopping for women in the Red Light District. In Germany, in the Ruhr Area, which is the largest industrial area in the world, they've transformed a huge factory building into a brothel. They'll line up 300 women for you, from 18 to 65, all races, all body types, nearly every variation you can think of and then they let you pick a woman. And you can f*ck her for 30 minutes for 30 Euros. In those countries it's legalized and regulated. The prostitutes pay taxes there and are considered "companies" if they work for themselves or "employees" if they work for a pimp that owns a prostitution company. Prostitutes get visits from government officials who check up on them and to find out if they are being pressured into doing that work or if they do it by free will. Condoms are enforced en they get medical check-ups. You can disagree with prostitution, but you'll never get it coordinated and regulated unless a country legalizes it. If you prohibit prostitution by law, then you push that sector into the hands of criminals, just like happened with alcohol many decades ago (remember how Al Capone got big?) and like with drugs now. I'm in favor of legalization. Prostitution is the oldest "job" in the world, it has always been there, whether legal or illegal. In my opinion the better option is to legalize it. In my opinion a government shouldn't have control over whether two adults can or can't have consensual sex, even if there is a transfer of money involved from one person to the other. Disclaimer: Yes I've been to Amsterdam and Germany, but I never had sex with a prostitute (for those who wondered), but I do know guys who decided to do it, hence I have "inside information".
Feelin Frisky Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 Here's one thing that sorta disturbs me. The Internet has not just facilitated a huge porn bonanza but has made for a whole new niche in prostitution in which good looking girls in college are doing hi-priced tricks for wealthy guys. The wealth they experience is extraordinary. I wonder how if or how they finish their educations and if and how they get out of the business. Thousands of young women are doing this and also porn for the high cost of education--and there are no jobs on the other side of education for sure in this slow economy. This is a new thing that would have to go into the column of a more "sexualized society". I wonder how a regular guy who also goes through school competes with the kind of windfalls the hotty girls are getting. This is all obscured and it probably doesn't affect me personally but it has social interest to an inquiring scientific mind.
Ruby Slippers Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 I think we are simply evolving and progressing, as every species does. Change is natural and reliable. While I have also worried about some of these developments, lately, I'm seeing the positives of a more sexually free society.
denise_xo Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 I think there's a key distinction between sexualised in the objectivist sense and sexualised in the subjective sense. I hate all the commercials with naked women staring at me as I walk through town to work, and the pressure young teenagers experience to look sexy. All of that is framing women (and frequently men for that matter) as sexual objects. I have no problem with the more subjective dimensions that encourage people to live more freely sexually, whether that means women are allowed to admit that they enjoy sex (including casual sex) or homosexuals are treated equally in society. To FF's point, in the UK a lot of female students work as lap dancers on the side - make a whole lot more money than serving beer in the student bar
El Brujo Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 Here's one thing that sorta disturbs me. The Internet has not just facilitated a huge porn bonanza but has made for a whole new niche in prostitution in which good looking girls in college are doing hi-priced tricks for wealthy guys. The wealth they experience is extraordinary. I wonder how if or how they finish their educations and if and how they get out of the business. Thousands of young women are doing this and also porn for the high cost of education--and there are no jobs on the other side of education for sure in this slow economy. This is a new thing that would have to go into the column of a more "sexualized society". I wonder how a regular guy who also goes through school competes with the kind of windfalls the hotty girls are getting. This is all obscured and it probably doesn't affect me personally but it has social interest to an inquiring scientific mind. You should read Superfreakonomics by Levitt and Dubner. There's a chapter in it which tells how an attractive woman named Allie became a prostitute and cleared over $400K a year. She said she wants prostitution to remain illegal in the US for that very reason. But back to original topic of the thread... it's not for me to say whether the sexualization of society is a good or bad thing, but I WILL say it's what happens when promiscuous people acquire a voice and the power to make rules. If you're promiscuous, this is a good thing, because your lifestyle doesn't have to be closeted. If not, and you're as tired as I am of being hit over the head with messages of how much you "need" sex (whether you actually want it or not), you are ignored at best, or shamed into it at worst. After all... virgins were not evil creatures until promiscuous people said so.
somedude81 Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 I don't know about society, but I'm certainly under sexualized.
OliveOyl Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 I don't think we are. The 60's and 70's were similar with all the "free love" etc. going around; the difference is now there is better contraception but also more STDs to worry about. The thing about sexual freedom is it means you are free to partake in how it fits you personally. Birds of a feather will generally flock together. Want a lot of wild orgies? Unusual fetish? You can probably find people to join you in that. Not interested in sex but want companionship instead? You can find people who will match you there. Personally I am interested in loving sex in the context of a steady monogamous relationship, and there are plenty of people who want that as well.
daphne Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 Back then women weren't allowed to enjoy sex not that they actually do enjoy it that much anyway. Who told you that nonsense? Although I'm torn about the repercussions of loss in values and promiscuity, I do like that liberation has brought more awareness to female sexuality and now men actually care about the female orgasm. Which is a very fine thing.
mr.dream merchant Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 I believe so. When you've got women like Kim Kardashian, Lady Gaga, Rihanna, etc..being glamorized and painted as idols when in reality they're just skanks, it's pretty bad. Young women are growing up to idolize these loose women, and become loose women themselves. Broken households, single parents, etc...**** is ****ed up right now. And it's only going to get worse. I've been single for so long now because most girls I meet, all they want to do is party and ****. Its such a turn off. But the saddest part about that is, men have now become conditioned to accept this kind of behavior in women. And now all men think its a-okay for a woman to act like her vagina is a drive-thru. Have fun with your STD's.
IrishCarBomb Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 Oddly enough, we are becoming more narcissistic which actually corresponds with being less sexual.
LynnieBear Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 becoming, became, already there, gone waaayyyy beyond... to answer your question. YES
Sanman Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 My sense is yes. Do you agree? Why to why not? Here why I think we are generally headed in that direction: 1) The media - TV - Internet - ads are more sexual than ever 2) Porn in a nutshell is changing men and women and the next generation 3) The decline of church, community and state - whether you like it or not - many of these institutions esp. church don't wield the same power they once did. 4) Family - more broken than ever and fewer role models for youth 5) Women and sexual freedom - less or no need for men to be their support - this is new in many societies. I'm not knocking it, just suggesting its a factor. so ie. women can now be the player like men. The pill, the values are changing. I women posting I want to be a player just like some men.. is that a good role model? 6) Online Dating - suddenly a person is an item in a shopping cart, or worse join a site for affairs you name it. Mix and suddenly you have people who more and more see sex as a fun pastime. Some others have said, those who have found an amazing partner to love, swear by their sense of being in a truly loving relationship. I certainly do agree. I think numbers 1 and 5 is a big part of it. Given that sex and sexual freedom are so open, everyone gets pushed toward physicality and superficiality. It is so easy to fall into an fwb, jump right into sex, always fall for the physically attractive rather than the right person, and never really get to know someone. It used to be that family, community, etc used to get people to be more considerate of other traits. However, more freedom and options in society and life also leads to more choice. Sometimes, such choices are overwhelming without a clear-cut path and we are often we left learn from our own choices or mistakes rather than the wisdom of those that came before us.
Author bluenightowl Posted October 7, 2011 Author Posted October 7, 2011 We've always had extremely sexual societies. Very ancient paintings have been found in caves spread all over the world depicting women with huge breasts, the accentuation of their womanly curves, drawings of men with humongous sexual organs and the scenario was heavy on sexuality. Don't forget that most people prior to the coming of agriculture were polygamous; everyone was banging everyone and the concept of motherhood and fatherhood was alien to them. In Ancient Rome the brothels had signs above their doorsteps to illustrate the sexual acts practiced in those establishments. Artists created objects in the shape of the penis and they were very open about sexuality, with orgies and hooking-up taking place when the circumstances were right. Ancient Greece had prostitutes marrying men in high offices; prostitutes following the course of armies, exotic princesses marrying men of great wealth and becoming part of their harem. even the austere philosophers managed to have sex with men and women and at the same time pretend to be above the ''excesses'' of men of power. For a very long time fathers took hold of their adult sons and drove them to a brothel as a ritual of passage. For thousands of years men and women were promiscuous. During a certain age many of the men and women were free to express the gifts and the beauty of casual sex, but somehow, thanks to that horrible religion called ''Christianity'' women were restricted to only one man, and men couldn't visit the brothel anymore, as the beta males and the Alpha females devised religion(and to a great extension,marriage) to control the sexual life of human beings. In Ancient Babylonia, as soon as a woman was ready to marry, she'd walk into the temple of the goddess Isthar, and on Her temple she'd sit praying until a man would approach her, lay a silver coin on her open hand, and proceed into having sex with her. By this demonstration of his attraction for her, the man was deeming her worthy of marriage. Nowadays? Please. A guy cannot give free reign to the natural urges that make a human being, human, and women are called sluts by envious women and by the men who want them, but can't attract such beautiful women. By the way; did you know that the Church forbade masturbation? eternal sin, and later on, during the apparition of relatively modern individual churches from the bosom of Christianity, the religious figures of the time brainwashed young men to not masturbate. The medical community allied themselves with the Church to gather even more money, by writing retarded articles on the consequences of masturbation in a man's life. Thankfully we are returning to our roots. No longer will men have the obligation of being or staying in relationships to have sex or to feel good about their own sexuality. Another positive side-effect of the global economical melt-down is that many women are going become prostitutes. Finally, they'll understand that men and women do have certain propensities for certain careers. Interesting points. I tend to agree that marriage is simply an invention and we might not be designed for it but our societies now almost universally around the world are more or less built around the idea of monogamous relationships so people tend to head that way although I suspect there are many who feel trapped. That said, for those looking for a monogamous relationship it might then be good to consider avoiding all of the above, free sex, casual sex and so forth. Those looking for a return to our roots (as you describe it) continue with that free spirit you mention.
oldguy Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 I often wonder about; 'freedom of speech' without consequences. As for sexual freedom, I think at any given we like to believe we are inventing something new. I believe things happen more in waves. A 2005 study concluded we, in North America are less promiscuous than we where in the late 1970's, mostly due to the fear of STD's such as AIDs & much less promiscuous than we where in the late '60's to early '70's. Pornography is more available, true, but that is because the internet has provided an information explosion. Around 1970 we where all hell bound too. When I was in college I knew a man who use to set up experiments for undergrads. After a life time of doing this he noticed he was seeing many of the experiments repeated. At first he would worn them that their unique idea had failed before but he said he stopped because, "the arrogant little b@st@ds where convinced that no one had ever thought of trying this before". Technology changes rapidly, human nature & social norms not so quickly at all. We really aren't that different from our ancestors. Grandma didn't have 'The pill' & of course no one shared every aspect of their personal life with the rest of the world on FB but that doesn't mean they didn't have one
oldguy Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 German prostitution is a great slice of the nation's income and it deliberately stems aways from the romanticized, prostitution we are met with in the states. I'd say, if a nation is capable of rebuilding itself without external help(and they had to pay tribute to the allies) after being demolished by 2 world wars, and still with the custody of every Country of the EU, bailing out every nation in need of help, and for a second time, saving Greece from being sold to the turks; who do you think is smart? The Country that only allows porn to be filmed in California; the land that charges fortunes to the men who marry. The Country sunk in debt and with no future... Or the Country that doesn't try to drain young men's finances via relationships, commitment and emotional crap? Germany is the future of any nation that intends on surviving and since they're the EU; prostitution is the logical solution to three issues. 1) Young women want or need money. 2)Young men want sex but do not want to sell an eye to able to afford it. 3)The economy needs fuel to survive, prosper, and stabilize. What what the second product to be sold? Sex. And I would like to add; one of the first things you learn in Sociology or in a first year social psychology class is; "You CAN NOT, legislate social norms"! It has never worked & never will. The best a government can hope for is to manage them. Just look at prohibition in the US if you don't believe this.
El Brujo Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 Not interested in sex but want companionship instead? You can find people who will match you there. I doubt it... people who are not interested in sex, but want emotional closeness, have pretty much been shamed out of society by the Gospel According To St. Casanova. Nowadays, seeking an emotional bond without sex has been defamed as a bad thing. Oddly enough, we are becoming more narcissistic which actually corresponds with being less sexual. Not quite... some narcissists have learned to use sex as a means to control others. I know, because my best friend was married to a narcissist, and she damn near destroyed him after she figured out he didn't need her sex as much as she thought he did. But the saddest part about that is, men have now become conditioned to accept this kind of behavior in women. And now all men think its a-okay for a woman to act like her vagina is a drive-thru. Women , for their part, know the value of what they have, and they've learned to turn it into a commodity... like petroleum or steel. It's a weird kind of commodity at that... money can't necessarily buy it, but the right kind of charm can. This is why I think any woman who says she doesn't feel threatened by sexbots, sex dolls, or cloned women (the ultimate development), is either really platonic, lying, or a lesbian... because replacements for women would make their commodity worthless, and they'd essentially be nothing more than men without dicks.
Scottdmw Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 I think that sexuality is a powerful force in people's lives, and like most things that are powerful it can have good or bad effects. Our ancestors, being astute students of human nature, noticed over the course of centuries that certain types of sexual interactions tended to bring about overall happiness for a person (long-term committed relationships usually codified as marriage), while others didn’t. That is where the traditional ideas of marriage came from. Societies saw that the people who flourished the most were those that had stable sexual relationships, and especially stable parenting relationships for raising children. In the last 40 years we have made a good attempt at tearing all that down. I feel like our society has become like children in a zoo who see a bunch of walls and don't understand what they're for. They decide that “walls are bad”, "walls are just here to control us," and tear them all down, letting loose the animals. I think most people who are honest will admit that they've had some kind of sexual experience that has turned out badly. Heartbreak is very very common today. Take a look at the “breaking up” section of Loveshack. There are many people there who suffer heartbreak for years, to the point where it is a ruling influence that dictates their lives. Is that normal? Are human beings really meant to experience that commonly? Or, is it the result of the idea that sexual relationships should be no-strings attached, when human hearts are just not made that way? Science has shown that sex is a powerful bonding force between people. Most people, most of the time, will become emotionally bonded when they have sex, especially over a period of time. If a relationship breaks up they suffer a lot of heartbreak usually. Our society encourages them to “cure” that heartbreak by repeating the process until their hearts are so scarred they can't feel much of anything, and this is held to be an ideal by many. Then there's the porn. Human beings are made to bond sexually. The part of the brain that takes care of this can't differentiate very well between porn and a real person. The result is that all the brain circuitry that is supposed to make a person bond with another person makes them bond with their computer instead, to the point where they don't want to give up the “relationship” and will get angry with anyone who suggests that they should. We've seen cases in recent years were powerful man at the heads of important government agencies neglected their public duties while watching porn all day at work. I don't think we have to “go back to the 1950’s”-- the clichéd counter-argument always brought up when anyone talks about traditional values. I do think that we can find a more balanced way to live that recognizes sex is powerful and important, that it has an enormous impact on our emotional lives, and that it needs to be treated with care for overall human happiness. I do specifically think that people would be happier in general if they were slower and more careful to start sexual relationships, and just as equally slower and more careful to end them especially where children are involved. I think the idea that sex is some kind of endless good where it's more is always better is as harmful or worse than the idea that eating all the ice cream, fast food, and candy a person wants is healthy. Scott
El Brujo Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 We've always had extremely sexual societies. True, but the difference between then and now is that we're no longer losing most of our babies to smallpox or saber-tooth tigers... but our bodies haven't gotten the message yet. We've only tackled the problems of baby-killing diseases within the last few decades after WW2, and our bodies will need much longer to figure out that we don't need to screw so much anymore. I predict that if evolution doesn't sever the sex=pleasure connection in our brains soon, we'll screw so much and make so many babies that there won't be enough food to go around. After all, even rats are smart enough to stop making babies when they're starving, and I've never seen a skinny rat---or a female rat with a black eye because she wouldn't put out for her male. And I would like to add; one of the first things you learn in Sociology or in a first year social psychology class is; "You CAN NOT, legislate social norms"! It has never worked & never will. The best a government can hope for is to manage them. Just look at prohibition in the US if you don't believe this. Or, as the abolitionists used to say about slavery, "stateways cannot change folkways"... although certain individuals in our current legislature sure are trying to do so... *sigh*
oldguy Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 I can't formulate an opinion based on that as I've never undertook the pains of putting up with the feminized professors one has to be 'taught'' by in one of those thinly disguised feminist propaganda devices. Psychology, and sociology, the revenues of people who don't know anything about human nature but have spent the time and the money to create an ego around a degree that ain't worth being called toilet paper. Well since you are self taught simply observation should have shown you that this 'theory' is evident. I like to think a formal education is a good place start. I would like to think it at least drew me up out of the ignorance of my youthful perceptions. But it is my more than 30 year of living that is the true education.
oldguy Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 You know that not only drinking carried on as they tried to ban alcohol, but it made the bootleggers rich beyond belief. Germany and Holland( and many other euro Countries haven't officially legalized porn but look the other way)could have bared men from gaining access, to young, beautiful women by focusing a big part of their budget on preventing prostitution from happening,but they knew that men will always find a way to have sex, so why shouldn't every nation learn from their decision to tax sex, and institute prostitution? So you do agree, 'social norms can not be legislated'? That is the point; prohibition failed miserably.
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