verhrzn Posted October 5, 2011 Posted October 5, 2011 I can't speak for others, but I don't feel that way at all. All I've been saying is that you pays your money and you takes your choice. If a woman wait around to be pursued that's fine, but inevitably she will be pursued by a few not-so-good guys (probably will date a few of them too) who like to pursue and who have confidence. If a woman can accept that as par for the course then I think there's nothing wrong with wanting the guy to pursue. Otherwise she could stand to be a little bit more assertive (not drastically more, just a tad). Except chances are if women do suddenly collectively decide they are going to peruse, they will probably STILL ignore the shy guys. Why? First, because in our culture guys don't generally communicate in subtle non-verbal ways (men are less likely to make eye contact short of staring and are less likely to START the eye contact, and are less likely to make facial expressions.) That means that even if a woman has it in mind to peruse, there are fewer signals to look for. Second, one of the hallmarks of shy guys is that they're shy all the way around... Meaning it's not likely the shy guy is going to be making eye contact or smiling a lot at women. Non-verbally, they are giving off all the signs of DISinterest. So a woman who is looking for interest is likely to completely ignore them, as they aren't giving any indication that they're interested. If you want a woman to pursue because you're too "shy," you still have to meet her halfway, which means making it clear that you're interested (maintain prolonged eye contact without staring, lots of smiling, etc.) You scoff that the signals women give off aren't clear enough, until YOU try them and realize how socially uncomfortable giving off these signals actually IS.
fortyninethousand322 Posted October 5, 2011 Posted October 5, 2011 Except chances are if women do suddenly collectively decide they are going to peruse, they will probably STILL ignore the shy guys. Why? First, because in our culture guys don't generally communicate in subtle non-verbal ways (men are less likely to make eye contact short of staring and are less likely to START the eye contact, and are less likely to make facial expressions.) That means that even if a woman has it in mind to peruse, there are fewer signals to look for. Second, one of the hallmarks of shy guys is that they're shy all the way around... Meaning it's not likely the shy guy is going to be making eye contact or smiling a lot at women. Non-verbally, they are giving off all the signs of DISinterest. So a woman who is looking for interest is likely to completely ignore them, as they aren't giving any indication that they're interested. If you want a woman to pursue because you're too "shy," you still have to meet her halfway, which means making it clear that you're interested (maintain prolonged eye contact without staring, lots of smiling, etc.) You scoff that the signals women give off aren't clear enough, until YOU try them and realize how socially uncomfortable giving off these signals actually IS. Again, I stated that there is a huge difference between someone who is socially crippled and someone who is simply shy/reserved. Most shy people (men and women) are only shy at first/around strangers but do eventually come around. All I said is that women should be open to being "a tad bit" more assertive. That doesn't mean reverse the traditional gender roles, that just means maybe make hints less subtle. I'm somewhat shy but I'll still talk to a girl if I think she's open to being talked to.
Els Posted October 5, 2011 Posted October 5, 2011 I've not read the book, but I absolutely detest books that try to tell you how you SHOULD be feeling about your SO or relationship. Everyone is different, and trying to box everyone into a stereotypical 'ideal partner' will get you nowhere. In the end, I think the people who depend on such stuff to decide whether to keep or lose a guy, are the ones who don't trust their own hearts, guts, and minds.
verhrzn Posted October 5, 2011 Posted October 5, 2011 Again, I stated that there is a huge difference between someone who is socially crippled and someone who is simply shy/reserved. Most shy people (men and women) are only shy at first/around strangers but do eventually come around. All I said is that women should be open to being "a tad bit" more assertive. That doesn't mean reverse the traditional gender roles, that just means maybe make hints less subtle. I'm somewhat shy but I'll still talk to a girl if I think she's open to being talked to. Except how in the world do you define "less subtle?" What should she do exactly, stare at you? And even going up to talk to you, when you yourself haven't been giving out any signs of interests, takes a LOT of courage... so essentially you're asking women to do something you're too scared to do yourself.
fortyninethousand322 Posted October 5, 2011 Posted October 5, 2011 Except how in the world do you define "less subtle?" What should she do exactly, stare at you? And even going up to talk to you, when you yourself haven't been giving out any signs of interests, takes a LOT of courage... so essentially you're asking women to do something you're too scared to do yourself. "Less subtle" could be saying hi, being a little friendly that sort of thing. Isn't that how women make friends? Just do whatever you do to make friends and let the guy figure out if he wants to take it further. If he doesn't do anything then you have your answer: a) he isn't interested b) he's way too shy to do anything about it and probably would be a turn off to you because of it. Done.
verhrzn Posted October 5, 2011 Posted October 5, 2011 "Less subtle" could be saying hi, being a little friendly that sort of thing. Isn't that how women make friends? Just do whatever you do to make friends and let the guy figure out if he wants to take it further. If he doesn't do anything then you have your answer: a) he isn't interested b) he's way too shy to do anything about it and probably would be a turn off to you because of it. Done. Except the woman still has to make the first move (being friendly, saying hi, whatever) on a guy that has given no indication he's interested. It's also outside the social norm, which means a woman is not only risking rejection, but is also acting in a socially uncomfortable way. Why is it so hard for a shy guy to say "hi" and be friendly?
fortyninethousand322 Posted October 5, 2011 Posted October 5, 2011 Except the woman still has to make the first move (being friendly, saying hi, whatever) on a guy that has given no indication he's interested. It's also outside the social norm, which means a woman is not only risking rejection, but is also acting in a socially uncomfortable way. Why is it so hard for a shy guy to say "hi" and be friendly? I don't think it's too hard to say hi, etc. for a woman any more than it is for a man. Women do make friends with other women correct? Which means somebody had to be friendly first in order for that friendship to happen. As for the second part, I think it's not just shyness, but shyness combined with bad past experiences. My responses are colored by the fact that the few women who did look at me with a smile and then turn away or who otherwise did seem interested turned out not to be interested. After a while of getting that you start to get the feeling that women just aren't interested and even if a woman were to wear a neon sign saying "come talk to me 49322" I'd still have doubts that she really wanted me to talk to her. At that point you can either continue to put yourself through the ringer (believing that it's useless to try) or you can slowly stop trying (knowing that you'll never succeed, but at least you're not wasting your time).
verhrzn Posted October 5, 2011 Posted October 5, 2011 I don't think it's too hard to say hi, etc. for a woman any more than it is for a man. Women do make friends with other women correct? Which means somebody had to be friendly first in order for that friendship to happen. As for the second part, I think it's not just shyness, but shyness combined with bad past experiences. My responses are colored by the fact that the few women who did look at me with a smile and then turn away or who otherwise did seem interested turned out not to be interested. After a while of getting that you start to get the feeling that women just aren't interested and even if a woman were to wear a neon sign saying "come talk to me 49322" I'd still have doubts that she really wanted me to talk to her. At that point you can either continue to put yourself through the ringer (believing that it's useless to try) or you can slowly stop trying (knowing that you'll never succeed, but at least you're not wasting your time). Yes, women make friends with other women, but it's a completely different dynamic... For one thing, women are getting signals from that other woman that they are interested/friendly. (Smiling, eye contact, etc.) Saying "hi" to make a friend and saying "hi" cause you think someone is attractive are two totally different experiences... it's mixing apples and oranges to say "well women pursue other women for friendships, why can't they pursue men for relationships?" As far as men getting burned because they misread signals correctly, why the assumption that women haven't gotten burned for the same thing? And it's WORSE for women because men AREN'T obvious with their interest a lot of the time, which is why this entire book "He's Just Not That Into You" was written! On top of having to risk rejection, women who are "not subtle" are also afraid the very act of initiating anything will scare a guy off, that he'll see the girl as too aggressive/masculine/desperate/creepy, etc.
fortyninethousand322 Posted October 5, 2011 Posted October 5, 2011 Yes, women make friends with other women, but it's a completely different dynamic... For one thing, women are getting signals from that other woman that they are interested/friendly. (Smiling, eye contact, etc.) Saying "hi" to make a friend and saying "hi" cause you think someone is attractive are two totally different experiences... it's mixing apples and oranges to say "well women pursue other women for friendships, why can't they pursue men for relationships?" As far as men getting burned because they misread signals correctly, why the assumption that women haven't gotten burned for the same thing? And it's WORSE for women because men AREN'T obvious with their interest a lot of the time, which is why this entire book "He's Just Not That Into You" was written! On top of having to risk rejection, women who are "not subtle" are also afraid the very act of initiating anything will scare a guy off, that he'll see the girl as too aggressive/masculine/desperate/creepy, etc. Perhaps. All I'm saying is that for women who desire to take a passive role in dating: "how's that working out for you?" If it's going great, cool. If not, perhaps you might want to take a more active role in your own destiny instead of excoriating men who aren't being more aggressive.
FitChick Posted October 5, 2011 Posted October 5, 2011 (edited) I actually found the focus of the book to be on avoiding making excuses for men who aren't interested in us. he should still be calling and making time for you. That's the crux of the book. If he's not, then maybe....."He's just not that into you!" So whatever the reasons, it doesn't matter. If a guy is too busy for me... my needs aren't being met... and it's okay to let this guy go. In my experience, a guy is never too busy for a girl he's into. That has been my experience. After all, if a guy isn't interested, he doesn't call, text, email or arrange to see you. Common sense. If he is so shy and insecure and afraid to ask me out, that is not the sort I date anyway. Edited October 5, 2011 by FitChick
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