Summer Breeze Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 I can see your viewpoint, but in all honesty don't find it to be very realistic. Most people simply cannot/will not end a relationship...especially not a long term relationship, especially not one where others (children) will be impacted by that choice...based solely on a suspiscion. No matter how "founded" that suspiscion may be, it's unrealistic to truly expect that most people will "walk away" without some actual 'proof' of what's been going on. It also ignores the fact that many people (like myself) don't just use that information to decide to leave, but also to directly address the issues and problems. Most WS's will deny, minimize, and lie about the affair...sometimes even PAST the point where the "proof" has been provided. It's impossible to try to deal with that issue until it's proven and out in the open. Had I not snooped...my wife would have continued to deny, and our situation would have continued to deteriorate and undoubtedly ended differently than it did. I DID snoop...got the proof...confronted...and having all of that out in the open actually prevented her from denying it...which let us ADDRESS it instead. Which was impossible to do while it was being denied. Given four kids and 17 years of marriage at the time...it didn't make sense to just end the marriage on the gut feeling that something was wrong, without addressing or dealing with anything first. I didn't say I would end things on a suspicion. I said I wouldn't snoop. If I had a suspicion I would talk to him till I found out if it were true or not. If after enough attempts he still wasn't able to explain things amply for me to be comfortable then I'd have to make a tough choice. I wouldn't snoop. I'd leave before I'd snoop. I believe trust is the backbone of ANY relationship and if you're snooping you don't trust them. If you trusted them you wouldn't suspect they could do something like that to you. I realize you can't always get to the truth when it's being denied. Why do you need that truth? If things can't be made right and explained then there is no good underneath. Why do you need to snoop to find 'the truth'? You should expect it not mine for it.
MissBee Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 I didn't say I would end things on a suspicion. I said I wouldn't snoop. If I had a suspicion I would talk to him till I found out if it were true or not. If after enough attempts he still wasn't able to explain things amply for me to be comfortable then I'd have to make a tough choice. I wouldn't snoop. I'd leave before I'd snoop. I believe trust is the backbone of ANY relationship and if you're snooping you don't trust them. If you trusted them you wouldn't suspect they could do something like that to you. I realize you can't always get to the truth when it's being denied. Why do you need that truth? If things can't be made right and explained then there is no good underneath. Why do you need to snoop to find 'the truth'? You should expect it not mine for it. Those are my sentiments as well. I always feel like if I feel like you're cheating, you're probably cheating and all snooping is going to do is make me find out what I already felt which will still lead me to the point of: we have a problem The problem for me isn't in the discovery of cheating after snooping, the problem for me is the feeling that I have to snoop to begin with. That is where it starts. From that point, something already went wrong. You're already alienating me, not making me feel secure, we're not communicating and I'm not satisfied with your answers. I'm pretty asttute and if such is the case, whether you're cheating, embezzling, doing something else....the POINT is: you're alienating me and making me feel paranoid and suspicious and that is not good. I can't be with a man who doesn't make me feel secure. I have dated men who were probably not cheating but the fact is, they behaved in such a way that fostered insecurity and suspicion. THAT ALONE was a problem and I had to end things because I realized I just couldn't feel good with them. I have no need to snoop as once I start feeling that way....then we need to figure this out OR we may not have a future. There are a hosts of issues that precede cheating and those are my concern....not the fall out, which is the cheating. Snooping is a reaction to what is probably already happening and not a prevention. The thing that makes me want to snoop...that is, your shady behavior, is where we need to start.
serial muse Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 I didn't say I would end things on a suspicion. I said I wouldn't snoop. If I had a suspicion I would talk to him till I found out if it were true or not. If after enough attempts he still wasn't able to explain things amply for me to be comfortable then I'd have to make a tough choice. I wouldn't snoop. I'd leave before I'd snoop. I believe trust is the backbone of ANY relationship and if you're snooping you don't trust them. If you trusted them you wouldn't suspect they could do something like that to you. I realize you can't always get to the truth when it's being denied. Why do you need that truth? If things can't be made right and explained then there is no good underneath. Why do you need to snoop to find 'the truth'? You should expect it not mine for it. But...what this denies - and I know you didn't mean it consciously - is Owl's and others' very real experience that there IS good underneath, despite his wife's denials. He snooped, discovered the truth...and it led to the repair of his marriage.
Summer Breeze Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 But...what this denies - and I know you didn't mean it consciously - is Owl's and others' very real experience that there IS good underneath, despite his wife's denials. He snooped, discovered the truth...and it led to the repair of his marriage. i'm glad for them, but I said the dealbreaker was infidelity and it was. I knew, and still know, I wouldn't stay with ANYONE who cheated on me. To me it is not acceptable. Period. If it isn't for someone else then I can see why they would snoop. I wouldn't.
Summer Breeze Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 Those are my sentiments as well. I always feel like if I feel like you're cheating, you're probably cheating and all snooping is going to do is make me find out what I already felt which will still lead me to the point of: we have a problem The problem for me isn't in the discovery of cheating after snooping, the problem for me is the feeling that I have to snoop to begin with. That is where it starts. From that point, something already went wrong. You're already alienating me, not making me feel secure, we're not communicating and I'm not satisfied with your answers. I'm pretty asttute and if such is the case, whether you're cheating, embezzling, doing something else....the POINT is: you're alienating me and making me feel paranoid and suspicious and that is not good. I can't be with a man who doesn't make me feel secure. I have dated men who were probably not cheating but the fact is, they behaved in such a way that fostered insecurity and suspicion. THAT ALONE was a problem and I had to end things because I realized I just couldn't feel good with them. I have no need to snoop as once I start feeling that way....then we need to figure this out OR we may not have a future. There are a hosts of issues that precede cheating and those are my concern....not the fall out, which is the cheating. Snooping is a reaction to what is probably already happening and not a prevention. The thing that makes me want to snoop...that is, your shady behavior, is where we need to start. Perfectly said! Thank you for stating it so well!
Owl Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 But...what this denies - and I know you didn't mean it consciously - is Owl's and others' very real experience that there IS good underneath, despite his wife's denials. He snooped, discovered the truth...and it led to the repair of his marriage. Exactly. Not to mention...for the previous 17 years of marriage, I'd never needed/wanted to "snoop". I snooped when I knew I there was SOMETHING going on, that I was being lied to, and realized that unless it got out in the open, there was nothing I could do to get it resolved and dealt with. I snooped. My marriage didn't collapse and fail as a result of that. On the contrary, opposite to what most of has been said here, my snooping resulted in bringing the entire situation into the open, and ultimately led to reconciliation of our marriage. My wife, who was FURIOUS at the time...agrees now it was the best thing I could have done, and at this point is glad that I did. My wife, who would have strongly felt the same as many of you during her affair...now routinely asks me to go into her email or whatever to print out coupons or whatever. And the funny thing is...I always have to re-ask for her password, because I darn sure don't remember it. That "need to snoop" lasted for a while after the affair, while trust was still not there. Over time, it dwindled and eventually went away altogether. If things get so bad in a marriage where someone feels the need to snoop...the odds are...that snooping isn't going to be anywhere near the worst thing to happen, nor is it truly likely going to be the cause of the marriage to fail. That marriage probably already has much bigger issues facing it than that. In the course of dealing with those bigger issues, most couples learn how little that invasion of "privacy" (read, secrecy in that particular context) really mattered in the face of those larger issues.
buterfly_1974 Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 Snooping can be both ok and well not so much. IF you find something that says he is unfaithful are you ready to walk out? If you are not then there is no reason to snoop. Snoop if you are ready to make a choice. I snooped on my ex we had been together for 4 years. He was addicted to Porn. I found it hidden all over our computer, out in the garage etc. He started going to a "friends" house every other friday night when he knew I wouldn't go with him because I had my kids. One friday night both my kids went to sleepovers. And what I saw hurt BUT I went straight home packed everything he owned and put it in his truck. And I have NEVER looked back. If you are willing to say goodbye if you find he is cheating then SNOOP but if you aren't then why put yourself through it?
Summer Breeze Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 Exactly. Not to mention...for the previous 17 years of marriage, I'd never needed/wanted to "snoop". I snooped when I knew I there was SOMETHING going on, that I was being lied to, and realized that unless it got out in the open, there was nothing I could do to get it resolved and dealt with. I snooped. My marriage didn't collapse and fail as a result of that. On the contrary, opposite to what most of has been said here, my snooping resulted in bringing the entire situation into the open, and ultimately led to reconciliation of our marriage. My wife, who was FURIOUS at the time...agrees now it was the best thing I could have done, and at this point is glad that I did. My wife, who would have strongly felt the same as many of you during her affair...now routinely asks me to go into her email or whatever to print out coupons or whatever. And the funny thing is...I always have to re-ask for her password, because I darn sure don't remember it. That "need to snoop" lasted for a while after the affair, while trust was still not there. Over time, it dwindled and eventually went away altogether. If things get so bad in a marriage where someone feels the need to snoop...the odds are...that snooping isn't going to be anywhere near the worst thing to happen, nor is it truly likely going to be the cause of the marriage to fail. That marriage probably already has much bigger issues facing it than that. In the course of dealing with those bigger issues, most couples learn how little that invasion of "privacy" (read, secrecy in that particular context) really mattered in the face of those larger issues. The difference between us and the reason we will never agree is that I wouldn't have stayed in the M. if I were to the point I had to snoop I would know it was near to the end.
Owl Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 The difference between us and the reason we will never agree is that I wouldn't have stayed in the M. if I were to the point I had to snoop I would know it was near to the end. I might well have said the exact same thing anytime in the 17 years prior to my wife's affair. As I said earlier...you really can't even guess what you're going to do until you're actually sitting in that situation trying to figure out what you're going to do next. I always said "if she cheats, I'll be gone so fast there'll be a hole in the air I was standing"...turns out, I wasn't. And in retrospect, investigating, confronting, and eventually reconciling our marriage was the right thing to do. We had 17 years of wonderful foundation to rebuild a new marriage from. Had I just left...it couldn't have possibly happened.
Summer Breeze Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 I might well have said the exact same thing anytime in the 17 years prior to my wife's affair. As I said earlier...you really can't even guess what you're going to do until you're actually sitting in that situation trying to figure out what you're going to do next. I always said "if she cheats, I'll be gone so fast there'll be a hole in the air I was standing"...turns out, I wasn't. And in retrospect, investigating, confronting, and eventually reconciling our marriage was the right thing to do. We had 17 years of wonderful foundation to rebuild a new marriage from. Had I just left...it couldn't have possibly happened. And that's fine for you. I'm not saying you're and i'm right. I'm saying I knew myself and I AM one of the people who said i'd be gone and I didn't hesitate. in my situation getting to the point of snooping would have been too far. I don't think snooping hurts anything because as you said the discovery is so much worse than the snooping in a moral war. My point is why would you want to snoop. And as I write that I am aware we all look at and react differently.
Summer Breeze Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 Sounds like you change your tune right here. No. I never said it was morally bad. I asked why anyone would want to. Why would you want to subject yourself to it.
Owl Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 No. I never said it was morally bad. I asked why anyone would want to. Why would you want to subject yourself to it. Because it's usually a TEMPORARY condition that requires this effort to save a LONG TERM relationship. If it were to become something that was needed long term...I could understand your view. But that's not what we're talknig about here.
Summer Breeze Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 The question isn't what your personal preference is. (Nor Buck Turgidson's, nor anyone's, for that matter.) The question is whether or not snooping in at least some cases (such as reasonable cause for suspicion of a partner's cheating) is rational behavior or at least can be justified on an ethical basis of some kind. If there is actual evidence of cheating--and it doesn't have to be courtroom style evidence, or even close to that--then there is at least a rational basis to snoop, and that rational basis is "protection of one's own self interest." I can say without a doubt to both you and Buck Turgidson that legitimate efforts to protect one's own self interest is both a perfectly rational and perfectly ethical basis to engage in snoopery. Now how far should one go is another issue which has to be determined case-by-case. It depends how good the suspicion is, initially; and then whether the initial snoopery uncovers MORE evidence (as is usually the case if there is cheating going on). If you actually believe that reasonable efforts involving snoopery to protect one's own self-interest should be prohibited, then that's simply arbitrary on your part. It's also arbitrary and absurd for you to claim you believe it "correct"--either rational or ethical--to force someone to decided to divorce upon suspicion of cheating or some other problem rather than having the opportunity for gathering more information first. So your position, against anyone snooping, ever, if they have a legitimate suspicion of infidelity by their partner, is both irrational and unethical. You have no right to tell anyone else or even suggest that it's somehow wrong for a person to snoop because you haven't offered a better way for the person to protect their self-interest in the face of possible cheating. Telling them they should just get divorced isn't a "better" alternative if the person wishes to have the option of trying to save the relationship. My opinion is that people would be better response for self interest would be to end it if the conditions that create one to snoop. That's my opinion. You have yours and I don't agree with you any more than you agree with me. You carry on being right. You're obviously much wiser than I. Next time i'm in need of an opinion i'll look you up.
Summer Breeze Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 Because it's usually a TEMPORARY condition that requires this effort to save a LONG TERM relationship. If it were to become something that was needed long term...I could understand your view. But that's not what we're talknig about here. Again you're opinion. I wouldn't do it even short term. I know what you're saying, but I disagree. Why is that so hard to fathom?
Owl Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 Nothing...and we can agree to disagree. I was simply responding to your question.
silic0ntoad Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 I don't get it, not that I'm hard headed or anything - but what point does this "moral high ground" prove when marriage is at stake? So what, it's ok for one partner to conceal, deny and destroy evidence, and the other person has to "leave on a hunch?" come on now, that's ridiculous. I repeat. Ever are the treacherous distrustful. Again, I repeat, they wouldn't care if they had nothing to hide. If I married someone and they had issues with me wanting to see their phone, I'd immediately assume the worst and find out why. So now I'm in the wrong for wanting the truth from a person who is not forthcoming with that information? Ya'll are nuts.
Summer Breeze Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 Nothing...and we can agree to disagree. I was simply responding to your question. It was really a rhetorical question. I know what my opinion is and it's different from yours. I wasn't asking you that because I know what you've done and that it's worked wonderfully for you and your W. I still can't understand it and never will because it's not my way of thinking. It doesn't mean I don't think you should have reconciled or that you're in some way wrong. I don't understand it but I respect what you've done. We just have differeing viewpoints. How boring would this forum be if we all agreed on everything!
Summer Breeze Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 I don't get it, not that I'm hard headed or anything - but what point does this "moral high ground" prove when marriage is at stake? So what, it's ok for one partner to conceal, deny and destroy evidence, and the other person has to "leave on a hunch?" come on now, that's ridiculous. Who said they'd leave on a hunch? I repeat. Ever are the treacherous distrustful. Again, I repeat, they wouldn't care if they had nothing to hide. If I married someone and they had issues with me wanting to see their phone, I'd immediately assume the worst and find out why. So now I'm in the wrong for wanting the truth from a person who is not forthcoming with that information? I'd assume the worst and find out why as well but I would do it by talking and getting things sorted out. I wouldn't snoop. That's all I'm saying. Who said you were wrong? You just have a different thought process. I would, and did, want the truth but I eouldn't snoop. If they weren't forthcoming then they are hiding something and if it wasn't something we could resolve I'd walk away. Ya'll are nuts. My answers in bold.
BeyondtheClouds Posted December 1, 2011 Posted December 1, 2011 (edited) I snooped and while our relationship is exclusive, we are not married. But still, I felt that I was giving up something by turning down the invitations of other men and spending a lot of time with my guy. The issue here was that he was continuing a "friendship" with someone he used to date and overlapped when we first started dating. He tried to frame it as "she was just a friend" but I found evidence that he treated her much much better than he treated me. And was still staying in touch with her. If he was benchwarming (waiting until she finished with her bf) or not, I didn't want to be bothered with this. I had caught him in a couple of lies and it did take showing him cold hard evidence that he was lying to get him to retract. And I also found evidence that he was trying to set up a meeting with her. But he never tried to introduce me to her.....well, what kind of friend is that. I offered to him his freedom, we could all be friends and I could date other men, the same thing that his special friend was doing. He said that he didn't want that. He did show me some texts after that where she was treating him like a Z list friend, ie an invitation to her b-day party on the same day (and then a text that night "where are you?") And I said, well, if that's the kind of friendships you value, then I need to be going. These days the relationship is very strong. We just visted his family on another continent. His mother mentioned that she was hoping to see a ring on my finger. I really think that he has more respect for me now that I raised the issue with him than if I tried to negotiate and put up with this "friendship." It is certainly a sign of confidence if you don't put up with what you don't agree with. I think I saw somewhere on this message board, a guy who said he was once the WH, that his spouse snooping made him realise that she really cared about the relationship. Going forward, whether it's this relationship or another, you can be sure, if I feel that something is not right, I will be doing my own research. and if that upsets my partner to the point that he wants to break up with me, then so be it. Edited December 1, 2011 by BeyondtheClouds
ate_the_paint Posted December 2, 2011 Posted December 2, 2011 Wow, what a great thread! I find very interesting (almost fateful) that I came across this thread as I'm trying to decide whether or not to snoop! I'm suddenly feeling very insecure in my marriage, and red flags and warning bells are going off, but we've also been separated by 11,000 miles for 9 months, and the waiting is finally over in 2 weeks. I'm stuck in a moral dilemna, trying to decide whether to start snooping on my wife (I call it "intelligence gathering") when I arrive or not. On one hand, I see snooping as a necessary evil when the situation has reached the point where no matter what your significant other says, you don't completely believe them. The flip-side to that is if things have got to the point where you don't believe your spouse, then what's the point of anything in the relationship anymore? I actually fully agree with both Buck AND Owl! Is that strange?
beenburned Posted December 2, 2011 Posted December 2, 2011 Any means to find out the truth is absolutely FAIR when dealing with a cheater. They lie and hide things because they are taking advantage of the BS and the marriage. You have to protect yourself from people who use you.
Buck Turgidson Posted December 3, 2011 Posted December 3, 2011 Any means to find out the truth is absolutely FAIR when dealing with a cheater. They lie and hide things because they are taking advantage of the BS and the marriage. If he's a cheater, then dump him. Don't stoop to his level.
Severely Unamused Posted December 3, 2011 Posted December 3, 2011 (edited) Is it ever okay to snoop? I had quite an experience involving snooping just before I began divorce proceedings with my husband, so these thoughts did run through my head rather frequently. My reasons were mostly pramatic. We live in a fairly conservative area and his infidelity gave me a slight advantage in the divorce. I also prepared for the very small possibility that the OW would go bunny boiler on our *sses. Any sort of information that would have helped me delve into my husband's mind would've been useful since he had shut me out emotionally (frankly, I should've left long ago. Love makes you dumb). The less pragmatic reason was that I simply had to know. I enjoy gathering and dissecting information. That's my personality type. Now, ethically and morally, I consider it wrong to snoop. I considered it wrong to snoop while I was snooping. It was essentially self-serving behaviour and nothing more. My stbxH and I agree on this one. I have very mixed feelings, and that is probably how they will remain. Edited December 3, 2011 by Severely Unamused
cdm369 Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 I've been cheated on and I've been snooped on and the feeling isn't even close to the same. Im not doing anything wrong so I don't care if my girl goes through my things and she knows it. She can pick up my pnone or go through my things and I don't care. If couples were 100% open this wouldn't be an issue.
Mr_Confused Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 Let me make sure I get it. It's ok to snoop if you know of an affair because you have a right to know what is going on by the spouse that broke the vows? Was it ok for me to seek sex and intimacy outside my marriage because my wife refused to participate as we vowed to do when we married? Hell, I told her I couldn't and wouldn't live my life without it prior to my affair. Do BS's tell the spouses they will snoop? It's hard to take the moral high ground then defend degrees of betrayal to rationalize behavior.
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